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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2
- Thread starter Celticpride
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The reason players are airing towards the use of Gyarados over Mence on teams is multifaceted. The former brings far more utility via its excellent defensive typing and Taunt, whilst also requiring much less support in sweeping teams than Mence does. The huge amount of support required for Mence cannot be overstated, so much so that it basically mandates it being used on one type of team, and one type of team only (those that, a) have Magnezone, or, b) have near fail-safe lures for the likes of Skarmory and Celesteela). It also has a much harder time breaking through common BO and Balance cores unaided than Gyarados does. A few other tangential cases such as the drop in efficacy and popularity of Scarf Lele and the majority of the more common scarfers having a harder time revenge killing Gyarados are also pertinent to this shift we've seen. All-in-all, these factors make Gyarados not only the more splashable pick in the current metagame, but also the more effective one.
As I don't feel like making another post which would basically be a carbon copy of this in the Viability Ranking thread, Gary, you can take this as a nomination to drop Salamence below Gyarados, if you wish.
ban regenerator ban pheromosa
As I don't feel like making another post which would basically be a carbon copy of this in the Viability Ranking thread, Gary, you can take this as a nomination to drop Salamence below Gyarados, if you wish.
ban regenerator ban pheromosa
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If you watch SPL matches there are plenty of them where Ghostium does a ton of work. It offers the ability to fire off a very strong Shadow Ball that can be game changing vs fatter Pokemon that can usually eat hits from it, such as Mega Scizor, fat Lando-T, Shift Gear Magearna, Mega Sableye, Amoonguss, and Skarmory struggle to switch into it and survive a boosted Shadow Ball afterwards. It also just straight OHKOs a plethora of offensive Pokemon that normally tank a hit or two from it, which can be game changing. The biggest draw from it is that it's a very good middle ground between Specs and Life Orb. You still have the ability to abuse Gengar's utility with the freedom to switch moves, but also having the ability to muscle through Pokemon with a very powerful nuking move. Obviously one must decide whether or not having the more consistent power from Specs or boosted damage to coverage moves is better, but in the current metagame, Ghostium capitalizes on how many teams are weak to Ghost STAB and how a very powerful Ghost move can very easily net a kill without needing much prediction, while still being able to abuse Gengar's other moves such as Taunt, Pain Split, coverage, and durability due to a lack of LO recoil. Obviously many of Gengar's other sets allow you to use a Z move on something else, but there are still plenty of instances where if a Z move isn't absolutely needed on anything else, putting it on Gengar is a very valuable choice.
Ghostium Z Gengar IS a breaker, and with Psychic types crawling all other and no viable resists (barring Chansey but thats Chansey), it hits exceptionally hard and has virtually no switchins.
I'll talk about why Fini is not performing fairly well in the metagame.
I think Fini is becoming worse because the Meta has really adapted around it well. For instance the surge of Ferrothorn usage not only because spikes are amazing but also because no matter if you choose Knock Off or Power Whip Fini cannot switch in and not be crippled or KOed. Hazard Control in general is a huge momentum sink in a metagame, and defog getting rid of your own hazards in a metagame where hazards are super crucial to have on your opponents side. You cannot spike stack effectively with Fini which limits your teambuilding options. On top of this there tons of absurdly powerful and fast threats that appreciate the free switch-in a defog provides. While at first Fini was a nice stop to a lot of sweepers pretty much all sweepers now run a way to get around Fini for instance Zard-X can run T-Punch and can straight up beat it if its worn down since Fini can't win with its standard set v a +1 zard without haze since it can flare blitz and roost up the damage. Fini doesn't beat mence or SSSS Gyarados. Fini actually dies to hazard stacking as well since while defogging a layer of SR is simple, coming in and taking 25% to rocks and a layer of spikes means Fini cannot come out to any attack that it doesn't hard wall and is doesn't appreciate eating small hits when it comes in due to no recovery. Fini used to be good as a nice stop to Ash-Greninja but Tangrowth does this better than Fini while not dying to residual. Not only does Fini fail to stop a lot of different sweepers its also an invitation to switch-in for powerful breakers like Zard-Y, Tapu Bulu (since standard Fini forgos Scald for Nature's Madness now). Fini is also super easy to lure too with new lures devloping every week it seems from Normalium Z Keldeo to Banded Zygarde, to the old Bloom Doom Heatran. Despite all this I don't think Tapu Fini is that bad its just that it should be focused up for its ability to annoying the crap out of Stall Teams with the combo of Taunt + Terrain boosted Fairy Stab and Natures Madness means Stall cannot stop Fini from wearing stall down with its moves.
I think Fini is becoming worse because the Meta has really adapted around it well. For instance the surge of Ferrothorn usage not only because spikes are amazing but also because no matter if you choose Knock Off or Power Whip Fini cannot switch in and not be crippled or KOed. Hazard Control in general is a huge momentum sink in a metagame, and defog getting rid of your own hazards in a metagame where hazards are super crucial to have on your opponents side. You cannot spike stack effectively with Fini which limits your teambuilding options. On top of this there tons of absurdly powerful and fast threats that appreciate the free switch-in a defog provides. While at first Fini was a nice stop to a lot of sweepers pretty much all sweepers now run a way to get around Fini for instance Zard-X can run T-Punch and can straight up beat it if its worn down since Fini can't win with its standard set v a +1 zard without haze since it can flare blitz and roost up the damage. Fini doesn't beat mence or SSSS Gyarados. Fini actually dies to hazard stacking as well since while defogging a layer of SR is simple, coming in and taking 25% to rocks and a layer of spikes means Fini cannot come out to any attack that it doesn't hard wall and is doesn't appreciate eating small hits when it comes in due to no recovery. Fini used to be good as a nice stop to Ash-Greninja but Tangrowth does this better than Fini while not dying to residual. Not only does Fini fail to stop a lot of different sweepers its also an invitation to switch-in for powerful breakers like Zard-Y, Tapu Bulu (since standard Fini forgos Scald for Nature's Madness now). Fini is also super easy to lure too with new lures devloping every week it seems from Normalium Z Keldeo to Banded Zygarde, to the old Bloom Doom Heatran. Despite all this I don't think Tapu Fini is that bad its just that it should be focused up for its ability to annoying the crap out of Stall Teams with the combo of Taunt + Terrain boosted Fairy Stab and Natures Madness means Stall cannot stop Fini from wearing stall down with its moves.
I think it's fine on bulky offense, I don't see how it's any more passive than Amoonguss which was fairly common on bulky offense builds in ORAS and can certainly be used now. Between Scald, Toxic / Toxic Spikes, and Haze, Toxapex is not so passive that you can always get free turns against it. In fact it's a bit troublesome to deal with for a lot of other offense teams whose members fear being statused on the switch.
Sorry to be mean, but given the competitive setting of your replays, the demonstration of the main point you were attempting to make isnt as effective as it could be. While you are right that the ash-greninja+tapu Koko core is a very popular voltturn core, and a very good one for breaking down opposing pokemon, given that your opponents in your replays most likely don't really know what they're doing, the replays are not a good example of how the core works. A good example would be a replay that occurred higher up in the ladder, say, around the 1500s. While I do understand what you're saying, the evidence to support your point isnt sufficient enough, it's like saying that you discovered who the criminal is in a case by showing them a strand of hair or a bag, those things could belong to anyone, greater measures such as analyzing DNA restriction fragments must be taken to reach a conclusion.A thing I wanted to bring up is VoltTurn. This VoltTurn Core in particular:
+
Tapu Koko is free to spam powerful electric type stabs on all but a select few pokemon, pokemon such as Landorus Therian, Garchomp, (they survive HP ice and OHKO it in revenge) and most importantly, Aloan Morawak. Tapu koko U-turns out of these threats for Ash Greninja To deal with. Ash Greninja struggles imensley with bulky water types such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Rotom-Wash, so it U-Turns into Tapu koko to deal with these threats. After a lot of pivoting, these two open holes in the opponents team that allow setup sweepers to end the game. This core is essential for a any setup sweeper that wants the opponents team weakened enough to so it can sweep. This core doesn't particularly like stall, so other wallbreakers like Tapu Bulu and Hoopa-U can help with that.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-541317897
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-540275485
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-540736693
With Lando-T's status as 'blanket check' - here are the mons I'd say befit that status as well:
Celesteela: AKA - Skarm 2.0. It should be self explanitory why this thing is a good blanket check - as Steel/Flying is synonymous as one of the best defensive typing's in OU; It's balanced stat spread, and being basically the only defensive UB in the game. Similar to Lando-T, it can also run the Automatize special set that I have seen from time to time, allowing it to clean up off of the conditioning that you're a defensive build and not an attacking one. I really can't say much new about it that hasn't been said already.
Our guardian deity Tapu Koko is up next. I think we ALL knew this thing would get usage from the day of it's announcement, and BOY HOWDY has it gotten some usage! Thanks to Electric Surge, it's matchup with neutrals such as Scizor, Magearna and the fellow Tapus is among the best in the game due to it's strong Electric STAB. Calcs:
Tapu Fini. According to a lot of people, this thing is the defogger the metagame could have done with a good few gens ago, and has respectable bulk to boot. Water/Fairy has also proven itself to be a superb typing in a meta such as this, and has plenty of utility options such as Taunt and Natures Madness to break down bulkier mons. Misty Surge also means that if you're running a primarily grounded team, you don't really need to look for a cleric - and as someone who finds clerics to be underrated, I approve of it. Yes, it's sustain is lacking... but so is Lando-T's, and look where that thing has got us!
Garchomp. Well, hasn't Z-moves done THIS boy a favor? Not only do we have the Scarf sets and TankChomp that we've known for the past couple of gens, but also the 12 dozen ways it utilizes Z-moves. You have sets that work for each STAB, improving it's wallbreaking ability even more - and then you have it's Firium Z set to lure would-be walls like Tangwroth and Celesteelaas well as the bulky Ice that doesn't exist.
I think Ladorus-T has 'set a standard' in what it has been able to do these last couple of generations, and with the ways that Garchomp can juggle Z-moves - I think it's safe to say that Garchomp has set a standard of it's own in that regard - using Z-coverage to invite in things that would otherwise trouble your team defensively. Hell, it's worth noting how it (alongside MagDoom Heatran) has influenced even lower tiers to utilize this mentality and use Z-coverage for themselves, which says a lot in my book (examples being Firium Z Slurpuff (that I came up with and have tested before), Fightium Z Hoopa-C and Bloom Doom Fire types like Volcanion and Emboar, among others).
Celesteela: AKA - Skarm 2.0. It should be self explanitory why this thing is a good blanket check - as Steel/Flying is synonymous as one of the best defensive typing's in OU; It's balanced stat spread, and being basically the only defensive UB in the game. Similar to Lando-T, it can also run the Automatize special set that I have seen from time to time, allowing it to clean up off of the conditioning that you're a defensive build and not an attacking one. I really can't say much new about it that hasn't been said already.
Our guardian deity Tapu Koko is up next. I think we ALL knew this thing would get usage from the day of it's announcement, and BOY HOWDY has it gotten some usage! Thanks to Electric Surge, it's matchup with neutrals such as Scizor, Magearna and the fellow Tapus is among the best in the game due to it's strong Electric STAB. Calcs:
- 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Scizor-Mega in Electric Terrain: 204-242 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Alakazam in Electric Terrain: 242-286 (96.4 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega in Electric Terrain: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tapu Fini. According to a lot of people, this thing is the defogger the metagame could have done with a good few gens ago, and has respectable bulk to boot. Water/Fairy has also proven itself to be a superb typing in a meta such as this, and has plenty of utility options such as Taunt and Natures Madness to break down bulkier mons. Misty Surge also means that if you're running a primarily grounded team, you don't really need to look for a cleric - and as someone who finds clerics to be underrated, I approve of it. Yes, it's sustain is lacking... but so is Lando-T's, and look where that thing has got us!
Garchomp. Well, hasn't Z-moves done THIS boy a favor? Not only do we have the Scarf sets and TankChomp that we've known for the past couple of gens, but also the 12 dozen ways it utilizes Z-moves. You have sets that work for each STAB, improving it's wallbreaking ability even more - and then you have it's Firium Z set to lure would-be walls like Tangwroth and Celesteela
I think Ladorus-T has 'set a standard' in what it has been able to do these last couple of generations, and with the ways that Garchomp can juggle Z-moves - I think it's safe to say that Garchomp has set a standard of it's own in that regard - using Z-coverage to invite in things that would otherwise trouble your team defensively. Hell, it's worth noting how it (alongside MagDoom Heatran) has influenced even lower tiers to utilize this mentality and use Z-coverage for themselves, which says a lot in my book (examples being Firium Z Slurpuff (that I came up with and have tested before), Fightium Z Hoopa-C and Bloom Doom Fire types like Volcanion and Emboar, among others).
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That is to say... Mawilite (and Beedrillite) are now released and should be available to use on Showdown soon. Last gen, Mawile ran two different types of sets before it got banned: Swords Dance and Sub-Punch. The core of Heatran and Mega Venusaur typically beat Mawile together, but individually, they both lost to one of these two sets. Given the lessened popularity of Mega Venusaur compared to XY and the nerf to Sucker Punch, I can see the Focus Punch set being slightly more popular relative to the SD set than it was last gen, but the SD set will still likely be very popular. Overall, I'm intrigued to see how Mawile adapts to the metagame, or more accurately, how the metagame will adapt to Mawile.
Those replays are all against pretty trash team builds or players. Team 1 has no defensive synergy and uses trash like Weezing and A Persian. Team 2 uses Empoleon - and keeps it in on CharY - and has Tang knock off your Tapu first, instead of EQing it. Oh, it also switches Mandibuzz into CharY's Fire Blast twice, even though it took 90% the first time it tried that. They also try to hit your gyarados with a resisted focus blast (I guess assuming Mega?) even though your CharY had already mega'ed. Most egregiously, they used solar beam on their CharY against yours when the Sun wasn't out. a 4x resist 2 turn move. The third team runs the trash that is Malamar, Tsareena, and Lycanroc M. They also have 2 4x fire weaknesses plus one regular fire weakness. Their only fire resist was fuckin Lycanroc, which is outsped and killed by Solar beam anyway. The common thread on all these teams were their big weakness to Charizard Y, and it's as much to do with you winning those games as your voltturn core is.A thing I wanted to bring up is VoltTurn. This VoltTurn Core in particular:
+
Tapu Koko is free to spam powerful electric type stabs on all but a select few pokemon, pokemon such as Landorus Therian, Garchomp, (they survive HP ice and OHKO it in revenge) and most importantly, Aloan Morawak. Tapu koko U-turns out of these threats for Ash Greninja To deal with. Ash Greninja struggles imensley with bulky water types such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Rotom-Wash, so it U-Turns into Tapu koko to deal with these threats. After a lot of pivoting, these two open holes in the opponents team that allow setup sweepers to end the game. This core is essential for a any setup sweeper that wants the opponents team weakened enough to so it can sweep. This core doesn't particularly like stall, so other wallbreakers like Tapu Bulu and Hoopa-U can help with that.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-541317897
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-540275485
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-540736693
I don't think he was "outrageous" or trying to directly attack you, he actually made a fair point. Your replays are low ladder and therefore don't prove your point even though Voltturn is indeed a thing. If you wanted to provide actual proof for your post you could've laddered higher or not even provide proof to avoid this kind of misunderstandings. Without the replays your post was cool but when people see low ladder replays you immediatly lose all credibility
My intent wasn't to blast low ladder for lack of credibility, or indeed blast his post. My only purpose was arguing that the replays in question weren't good examples of VoltTurn gameplay, simply because the opponents didn't have practical comps and/or were astoundingly weak to CharY. If anything, the replays go more to show how strong CharY is.
His post itself was pretty solid, and I didn't want to attack him or his gameplay at all.
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Can we talk about Mega Beedrill? Mega buff means that it actually has a four moveslots and not 3 + Protect. It forces out all Tapus thanks to adaptability Poison Jab and can use the switches it forces to set up a sub or to create momentum with U-Turn. Pretty fun with Dugtrio. Or Magnezone/Magneton. Or Golem if you are that guy
What changed from last gen is more threats it forces out, mega buff and Duggy buff. Psychic terrain is also a nice buff for it.
What changed from last gen is more threats it forces out, mega buff and Duggy buff. Psychic terrain is also a nice buff for it.
beedrill did get quite technically better in this meta but i would still use phero over it alot of the time. 1) beedrill takes up a mega slot which while isnt that big ,because of the limited amount of megas currently available, it is still makes you not able to use stuff like meta and the newly released mawile which are massive threats. 2) i also think that having fighting stab from pheromosa is just super nice as it can obviously hit steel types like steela and skarm a lot harder than beedrill can.
however it does have a niche as it can run pursuit which seems to be its only advantage over phero
Mega Beedrill has Knock Off and higher attack stat coupled with Adaptability to make it hit much harder. Also, most Pheromosa sets are special-based, whereas Beedrill is a physical attacker through and through.
I love the idea of Mega Beedrill, especially as a check/counter to the Tapus and Fairies in general not named Mawile/Magearna. The problem is that Pheromosa exists, and while Beedrill has a lot of merits over her (notably, It will OHKO all tapu's with poison jab bar full health defensive Fini, which Phero can't do), he does take up a mega slot (and for however long MMawile stays and with MMeta on the scene, this is an issue).
Really, I don't think the lesser speed that Beedrill has over Phero is an issue. Mega Alakazam isn't really used and can't switch into Beedrill's attacks, while Mega Aerodactyl is nowhere to be seen. Most importantly, Beedrill wins 1v1s against Phero, possibly even on the switch, because it has passable SpD and 4x resists Phero's main physical STAB (who runs Lunge?), as well as resists most of her other attacks (Ice beam exists, but once again Beedrill has passible SpD). It outspeeds what it needs to.
Really, I don't think the lesser speed that Beedrill has over Phero is an issue. Mega Alakazam isn't really used and can't switch into Beedrill's attacks, while Mega Aerodactyl is nowhere to be seen. Most importantly, Beedrill wins 1v1s against Phero, possibly even on the switch, because it has passable SpD and 4x resists Phero's main physical STAB (who runs Lunge?), as well as resists most of her other attacks (Ice beam exists, but once again Beedrill has passible SpD). It outspeeds what it needs to.
I wouldn't say Beedrill wins 1v1 vs Phero when it can just U-Turn out for 60% into something that takes on M-Bee and while the Bee user gets momentum if they click U-Turn too losing so much HP on a rocks weak mon isn't worth it at all considering the current state of hazard removal. So the Bee user is forced out and the Phero user gets momentum via U-Turn effectively winning the 1v1. I still think Bee's niche is almost non-existent taking into account how hard it is to give up your Mega slot aka your Metagross slot just to have stronger pjabs and slightly stronger U-Turns
Well, if Mega Bee also U-turned you get the slower U-turn, so you "win" that matchup.
Rocks weak is a point against it, but it's helpful if you're running Endeavor, which could have some interesting applications.
As I said, letting Pheromosa U-Turn on your Beedrill for 60% just to get momentum and "win" the matchup isn't worth it at all cause now you:
-Die to Rocks+Spike
-Can only switch into Rocks once more
-Die to another U-Turn from Phero
The Bee user is on a lose-lose situation if it's 1v1 vs a Mosa
It also has access to Swords Dance and can potentially beat most of the things used against Phero (Knock Off for A-Wak, Drill Run for Toxapex, etc.). If anything, I would argue that Beedrill main flaws lie in failing to outspeed M-Alakazam/Aerodactyl and being a Mega (AKA no Focus Sash/Choice Items/LO/Z-Crystals).
True, it's hard to justify using it, but it's in no way whatsoever worthless.
I haven't seen M aero used anywhere, though, and M Alakazam isn't really that much of a concern in the meta either (and U turn KOs it)
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