Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

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Sueshidragon said:
Just thought I'd chip in here, because why not, it seems interesting. The two hot points here seem to be Stealth Rocks and Mega Sceptile, so here I go.

Mega Sceptile
I really like this thing as a Greninja counter, provided you aren't coming in on Ice Beam. It's ability to force it out, as well as other things provided it's amazing coverage, are really something. Not to mention it's fast as all hell. EQ kills Koko, who would otherwise leave a serious mark with HP Ice, and the only thing I can see walling this thing to any extent is Celesteela. It's fast, moderately bulky (v e r y moderately), and hits really hard. I can see it being a counter to a bunch of things, namely Greninja, Koko, Toxapex, and more. You need to be scarfed or named Mega Alakazam to outspeed this thing, and things like Landorus and Bulu have so few ways of denting this thing they have to flee on the spot. All in all, I think the amount of prominent stuff Sceptile checks is gonna make it a pretty big thing once it's allowed in PS.

Stealth Rocks
Paying careful attention to what Gary said, I have a few choice words on Rocks. One, it's a very over centralizing move, as 90~% of battles nowadays are won with some form of entry hazard support, Rocks chief among those. Whether or not the meta is better off without Rocks is not my call, and I'm not by any means whatsoever saying it would or wouldn't be. However, I do raise you another point, one that's been stated so far, and that's that most hazard setters are already great, and viable Pokemon, as well as vastly outnumbering and overpowering the few viable removers we have. Zapdos, Latios, and Skarmory are about the best viable hazard removers around, and while Zapdos has means of pressuring many setters, it also invalidates your own hazard setters. Spinners are a complete crush on momentum and really hard to bring in safely, as Excadrill isn't the fastest thing around, Starmie can't do much in the hit-taking category, and Tentacruel just plain sucks nowadays becuase Psychic STAB exists. Now, if you want to be that one weirdo who uses Tsareena as your spinner, you go right ahead. HOWEVER. In Rocks' defense, it keeps things like Dragonite, Mega Pinsir, and Charizard Y in check very well. It's easily the best form of entry hazard, and is certainly a strong point nowadays.

TL;DR: Mega Sceptile is pretty hecking good as a check to a bunch of stuff, and setters of Rocks outweigh the removers pretty bad.
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You and I have very different definitions of counter if you think Mega Sceptile is a Greninja counter lol. Also why does it need EQ to kill Koko when EQ doesn't even OHKO and Leaf Storm OHKOs? You also forget to mention that Assault Vest Tangrowth walls MScept to hell and back (unless I'm missing some mystery coverage move MScept has). MScept does heavily deter Thunderbolt spamming from Koko but HP Ice Koko exists, meaning it's far from a counter.

Also did you talk about Defoggers without mentioning Mew? Mew's easily my go to Defogger atm - it handles annoying megas such as Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, and stealth rockers such as Lando-T, Garchomp by using Will-o-Wisp and beats many of the more common Stealth Rockers - it walls defensive lando to hell and back, SD still doesn't appreciate a burn, nor does SD Garchomp (most are running Z moves or LO from my experience). While Ferro can annoy it, it still doesn't appreciate Wisp and it certainly doesn't appreciate the mons Mew is paired with that require the Defog support in the first place (Volcarona, Mega Zards, and MPinsir puts a chunk in Ferro). It also deters non Dark Pulse Greninja, outspeeds and wisps Adamant Bulu, while avoiding being trapped by TTar by Wisping, which cuts 80 BP Pursuit down to only doing 54% max. Unfortunately, Heatran walls it and keeps rocks up vs it, but it troubles the other Defoggers you mentioned as well. I agree hazard control options are a bit limited though in contrast to the number of stealth rock setters. Unfortunately, they don't affect Doubles much so I doubt anything will be done by Game Freak. also I'm affronted, i use tsareena all the time it's amazing spinner
 
Niadev said:
You and I have very different definitions of counter if you think Mega Sceptile is a Greninja counter lol. Also why does it need EQ to kill Koko when EQ doesn't even OHKO and Leaf Storm OHKOs? You also forget to mention that Assault Vest Tangrowth walls MScept to hell and back (unless I'm missing some mystery coverage move MScept has). MScept does heavily deter Thunderbolt spamming from Koko but HP Ice Koko exists, meaning it's far from a counter.

Also did you talk about Defoggers without mentioning Mew? Mew's easily my go to Defogger atm - it handles annoying megas such as Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, and stealth rockers such as Lando-T, Garchomp by using Will-o-Wisp and beats many of the more common Stealth Rockers - it walls defensive lando to hell and back, SD still doesn't appreciate a burn, nor does SD Garchomp (most are running Z moves or LO from my experience). While Ferro can annoy it, it still doesn't appreciate Wisp and it certainly doesn't appreciate the mons Mew is paired with that require the Defog support in the first place (Volcarona, Mega Zards, and MPinsir puts a chunk in Ferro). It also deters non Dark Pulse Greninja, outspeeds and wisps Adamant Bulu, while avoiding being trapped by TTar by Wisping, which cuts 80 BP Pursuit down to only doing 54% max. Unfortunately, Heatran walls it and keeps rocks up vs it, but it troubles the other Defoggers you mentioned as well. I agree hazard control options are a bit limited though in contrast to the number of stealth rock setters. Unfortunately, they don't affect Doubles much so I doubt anything will be done by Game Freak. also I'm affronted, i use tsareena all the time it's amazing spinner
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Yeah, I did leave out Mew, didn't I... ah well, it is a very up and coming Pokemon, but with the rise of Mew, also comes Weavile and Gengar, and while the latter doesn't particularly like burns, they both threaten Mew immensely. My main issue with Mew (and Starmie) is their Knock weakness. They're paralyzed with fear of taking the move, as it severely cripples if not outright OHKOes them. And seriously, EQ doesn't kill but Leaf Storm does? Sheesh, M-Scept must be even weaker physically than I thought.
 
Sueshidragon said:
Yeah, I did leave out Mew, didn't I... ah well, it is a very up and coming Pokemon, but with the rise of Mew, also comes Weavile and Gengar, and while the latter doesn't particularly like burns, they both threaten Mew immensely. My main issue with Mew (and Starmie) is their Knock weakness. They're paralyzed with fear of taking the move, as it severely cripples if not outright OHKOes them. And seriously, EQ doesn't kill but Leaf Storm does? Sheesh, M-Scept must be even weaker physically than I thought.
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It's because of the STAB difference. Leaf Storm hits 210 after STAB while EQ hits 200 on a weakness, and the former comes off Sceptile's stronger offense. EQ is mostly for Steel types and Resists to LS.


On the matter of Koko, what is its preferred set now? Thunderbolt and U-Turn still seem big, there's Taunt, but is the HP of choice usually Fire or Ice?
 
pika pal said:
It's because of the STAB difference. Leaf Storm hits 210 after STAB while EQ hits 200 on a weakness, and the former comes off Sceptile's stronger offense. EQ is mostly for Steel types and Resists to LS.


On the matter of Koko, what is its preferred set now? Thunderbolt and U-Turn still seem big, there's Taunt, but is the HP of choice usually Fire or Ice?
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I'm good with OU, to the best of my knowledge, it's TBolt, U-Turn, HP Ice, and either Taunt or VSwitch. HP Ice is mandated to deal serious damage to Grounds.
 
pika pal said:
It's because of the STAB difference. Leaf Storm hits 210 after STAB while EQ hits 200 on a weakness, and the former comes off Sceptile's stronger offense. EQ is mostly for Steel types and Resists to LS.


On the matter of Koko, what is its preferred set now? Thunderbolt and U-Turn still seem big, there's Taunt, but is the HP of choice usually Fire or Ice?
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HP ice will always be the standard choice, HP fire is the lure option
 
The LO set(probably the worse of the 4 viable sets) uses Hp fire(+tbolt and dazzling gleam), but hp ice is the only choice if using the magnet set(the best one)
 
I'm not really digging Mega Sceptile, to be all that honest.

Nothing leads me to believe that this thing is any better than it was last gen. In fact, I think it's actually worse. Maybe the meta hasn't 100% settled yet but just look at some of the most popular mons:
Both Celesteela and Magearna wall this thing to hell. HP Fire is basically healing Celesteela at 25-30% damage and EQ does a respectable amount to Magearna (3hko), but it's basically a lost matchup lol. Both Pinsir and Volc being everywhere doesn't really help either. Latios + water types like Rotom-W, Slowbro, and Suicune aren't as popular they were in ORAS, Tangrowth is everywhere and completely walls it, Bulu has increased in usage, hazards + priority from the likes of Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile hurt it, and so on.

Not to mention that it's extremely shaky in even being a good answer to Greninja and Koko, which are often paired together. Koko is one, if not the, premier pivot and any player with common sense isn't mindlessly clicking tbolt. On top of that, it needs to mega evolve first, which is easier said than done w/o a free switch in such a heavy hitting meta. Greninja can only be scared out with a free switch.

Quite frankly, I just don't see why this deserves a spot over Mega Zam (which I feel is the closest mega resemblance) on my team. It can't do anything to stall and its movepool leaves more to be wanted. It's almost always going to run Leaf Storm + DP, and it still wants EQ/Rock Slide/HP Fire. No HP Fire means you miss out on hitting Ferro + Scizor + Celesteela, no EQ means you lose vs Heatran + Tox (DP prob does more here) + Magearna + Mawile, and no Rock Slide means losing to Char-Y + Volc, which most Sceptile builds seem to lose to regardless lol.

It's by no means a terrible mon, but I don't see it being higher than B-.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Sub Sceptile is (imo) just bad in this meta. It was my favorite set in ORAS when I could get away with Leaf Storm/Giga Drain + DP + filler, but the plethora of double steels won't make it possible, and coming in on possible hazards + 25% will blow.
 
DownAbove said:
I'm not really digging Mega Sceptile, to be all that honest.

Nothing leads me to believe that this thing is any better than it was last gen. In fact, I think it's actually worse. Maybe the meta hasn't 100% settled yet but just look at some of the most popular mons:
Both Celesteela and Magearna wall this thing to hell. HP Fire is basically healing Celesteela at 25-30% damage and EQ does a respectable amount to Magearna (3hko), but it's basically a lost matchup lol. Both Pinsir and Volc being everywhere doesn't really help either. Latios + water types like Rotom-W, Slowbro, and Suicune aren't as popular they were in ORAS, Tangrowth is everywhere and completely walls it, Bulu has increased in usage, hazards + priority from the likes of Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile hurt it, and so on.

Not to mention that it's extremely shaky in even being a good answer to Greninja and Koko, which are often paired together. Koko is one, if not the, premier pivot and any player with common sense isn't mindlessly clicking tbolt. On top of that, it needs to mega evolve first, which is easier said than done w/o a free switch in such a heavy hitting meta. Greninja can only be scared out with a free switch.

Quite frankly, I just don't see why this deserves a spot over Mega Zam (which I feel is the closest mega resemblance) on my team. It can't do anything to stall and its movepool leaves more to be wanted. It's almost always going to run Leaf Storm + DP, and it still wants EQ/Rock Slide/HP Fire. No HP Fire means you miss out on hitting Ferro + Scizor + Celesteela, no EQ means you lose vs Heatran + Tox (DP prob does more here) + Magearna + Mawile, and no Rock Slide means losing to Char-Y + Volc, which most Sceptile builds seem to lose to regardless lol.

It's by no means a terrible mon, but I don't see it being higher than B-.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Sub Sceptile is (imo) just bad in this meta. It was my favorite set in ORAS when I could get away with Leaf Storm/Giga Drain + DP + filler, but the plethora of double steels won't make it possible, and coming in on possible hazards + 25% will blow.
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Neither celesteela and magearna wall it, while Celesteela can switch in repeatdely times it must be healty enough to live at least 3 hits from HpFire or it has a air slash, magearna can't come repeatedly because its takes almost half from quake, coupled with hazards it can't switch in more than once once before it get on quake range. The only reliable swithc ins are in AVGrowth, AVTornadus-T, Amoonguss, the blobs and Togekiss, Bulu can't switch in because it risks the hit from Leaf storm or HpFire, Pinsir and Volca take a lot of damage from hits like Dpulse, Hpfire for the former and quake for the later and both take a lot from hazards, The zards don't enjoy eating a Dpulse and they hate rocks, M-Medi and M-Mawile priority hurt but sceptile lives FO+BP and KO Medi after, and survives the hit from Mawile SP and can ko if properly weakened, hazards hurts everything so I don't know why you brought that up when the same argument can be used to all the other fragile mons of the tier, you mentioned being a shaky check to koko and ninja but its still a check since by definition ,"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax" on that case a lot of viable mons are shaky because they drop if the opponent predicts well.

I believe M-Scep is actually way better this gen, even though it was faster it still needed protect to safely go mega since even back then there were still mons which it couldn't outspeed making it go with only one coverage and protect and basically it need to choose between all around FB, hitting harder Scizor and Ferrothorn with HpFire or heatran with quake, now it can afford to drop protect to put some extra coverage like HpFire and Eartquake on the same set so it don't has to rely on focus blast to have a way to hit steels, its not the greatest mega of the tier I am not denying it or saying opposite, but its good enough I can see it going for B at least, anyway this is not the place for tiering discussion so let's drop it and wait till its allowed it so on the proper thread.

What are yours takes on rain right now? M-swampert has given a new breath of life to it, not only its imunne to eletric but the mega changes make it go faster right away, it has great bulk and attack and has his ways to get past his would be checks not named PhyDef Tangrowth also it got some good abusers beyond swift swimmers like LO Torn-T, Thunder Koko, Ferrothorn, Greninja, etc it seems rain got a little better, it might be the hype for the new released M-Swampert but I belive rain seems good right now.
 
1234hjkl said:
Neither celesteela and magearna wall it, while Celesteela can switch in repeatdely times it must be healty enough to live at least 3 hits from HpFire or it has a air slash, magearna can't come repeatedly because its takes almost half from quake, coupled with hazards it can't switch in more than once once before it get on quake range. The only reliable swithc ins are in AVGrowth, AVTornadus-T, Amoonguss, the blobs and Togekiss, Bulu can't switch in because it risks the hit from Leaf storm or HpFire, Pinsir and Volca take a lot of damage from hits like Dpulse, Hpfire for the former and quake for the later and both take a lot from hazards, The zards don't enjoy eating a Dpulse and they hate rocks, M-Medi and M-Mawile priority hurt but sceptile lives FO+BP and KO Medi after, and survives the hit from Mawile SP and can ko if properly weakened, hazards hurts everything so I don't know why you brought that up when the same argument can be used to all the other fragile mons of the tier, you mentioned being a shaky check to koko and ninja but its still a check since by definition ,"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax" on that case a lot of viable mons are shaky because they drop if the opponent predicts well.

I believe M-Scep is actually way better this gen, even though it was faster it still needed protect to safely go mega since even back then there were still mons which it couldn't outspeed making it go with only one coverage and protect and basically it need to choose between all around FB, hitting harder Scizor and Ferrothorn with HpFire or heatran with quake, now it can afford to drop protect to put some extra coverage like HpFire and Eartquake on the same set
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Color me stupid but the few times I did see Mega Sceptile back in ORAS, it never ran Protect and I don't see why you would ever run that over a coverage move besides for some scenarios like outspeeding Mega Lop if your team was weak to that. I would 100% take running EQ/FB/Sub as my last move over Protect when its base speed before mega is already 120, unlike Beedrill or Diancie for example, who almost always ran Protect.

I don't really like the technicality behind the words check and whatnot which is why I specifically never said it was a shaky check. I said it was a shaky answer as yes, like you mentioned, it needs a free switch, and that's easier said than done in a hard hitting meta.

How does Celesteela not wall this thing man? HP Fire does 25-30% and heavy slam is doing a ton back. Not to mention that Steela can Leech Seed + lefties on the switch and most often than not, if your Sceptile answer is Celesteela, you'll be "healthy enough to live at least 3 hits." It also doesn't need air slash. Granted I should've been more clear on saying that Magearna struggles a bit more but EQ only 3hkos so yes, I will say that Magearna is quite a solid answer to it as you still need to predict and hit it with EQ when it comes in.

I have no idea why I brought up Bulu as a switch in (Leaf Storm in grassy terrain probably does like 75% either way lol) but I wrote that at 2 am so oh well, but I think you're missing the point. Yes, given a scenario where Sceptile can be freely switched in to those mons, it'll perform well, but that's by no means realistic. It is by no means a Pinsir/Volc answer as Pinsir is already doing 80% min from unboosted QA and anyone who's played with Volc before will try to ensure rocks are off the field before bringing it in and then you gotta pray you have rock slide. Zard-X is irrelevant and DP doesn't even ohko Zard-Y 50% of the time after rocks. Saying that it can kill Mega Mawile if properly weakened isn't really cutting it justice either. I guess this all just comes down to "oh but so and so mon needs a free switch" but I just don't see how it's going to excel when things like flying types, Weavile, and Celesteela/Magearna have been seeing a ton of usage.

My point im bringing hazards up is yes it goes both ways, but when I want Sceptile to be an answer to all these mons, I don't want to have to bring it in to hazards on every occasion, seeing as how its typing means it's only coming in on water/electric moves ifff you predict right. I also brough up hazards + Zam as I'd much rather just use Zam to prevent hazard damage + it offers utility like Sub/CM/Encore without giving up much (maybe Dgleam for Sableye but Lele's a thing anyways). Sceptile, on the other hand, has to choose b/t HP Fire/EQ/Rock Slide. And yes while you can accommodate for that with your other members, I just think you're better off running a Pinsir/Zam/one of the premier hard hitters. It was appealing in ORAS when every team wanted to depend on Tran+Rotom-W as their blanket check to everything in the meta, but not so much now. Honestly I feel like it's one of those mons that's better on paper, but we'll see.
 
DownAbove said:
Color me stupid but the few times I did see Mega Sceptile back in ORAS, it never ran Protect and I don't see why you would ever run that over a coverage move besides for some scenarios like outspeeding Mega Lop if your team was weak to that. I would 100% take running EQ/FB/Sub as my last move over Protect when its base speed before mega is already 120, unlike Beedrill or Diancie for example, who almost always ran Protect.

I don't really like the technicality behind the words check and whatnot which is why I specifically never said it was a shaky check. I said it was a shaky answer as yes, like you mentioned, it needs a free switch, and that's easier said than done in a hard hitting meta.

How does Celesteela not wall this thing man? HP Fire does 25-30% and heavy slam is doing a ton back. Not to mention that Steela can Leech Seed + lefties on the switch and most often than not, if your Sceptile answer is Celesteela, you'll be "healthy enough to live at least 3 hits." It also doesn't need air slash. Granted I should've been more clear on saying that Magearna struggles a bit more but EQ only 3hkos so yes, I will say that Magearna is quite a solid answer to it as you still need to predict and hit it with EQ when it comes in.

I have no idea why I brought up Bulu as a switch in (Leaf Storm in grassy terrain probably does like 75% either way lol) but I wrote that at 2 am so oh well, but I think you're missing the point. Yes, given a scenario where Sceptile can be freely switched in to those mons, it'll perform well, but that's by no means realistic. It is by no means a Pinsir/Volc answer as Pinsir is already doing 80% min from unboosted QA and anyone who's played with Volc before will try to ensure rocks are off the field before bringing it in and then you gotta pray you have rock slide. Zard-X is irrelevant and DP doesn't even ohko Zard-Y 50% of the time after rocks. Saying that it can kill Mega Mawile if properly weakened isn't really cutting it justice either. I guess this all just comes down to "oh but so and so mon needs a free switch" but I just don't see how it's going to excel when things like flying types, Weavile, and Celesteela/Magearna have been seeing a ton of usage.

My point im bringing hazards up is yes it goes both ways, but when I want Sceptile to be an answer to all these mons, I don't want to have to bring it in to hazards on every occasion, seeing as how its typing means it's only coming in on water/electric moves ifff you predict right. I also brough up hazards + Zam as I'd much rather just use Zam to prevent hazard damage + it offers utility like Sub/CM/Encore without giving up much (maybe Dgleam for Sableye but Lele's a thing anyways). Sceptile, on the other hand, has to choose b/t HP Fire/EQ/Rock Slide. And yes while you can accommodate for that with your other members, I just think you're better off running a Pinsir/Zam/one of the premier hard hitters. It was appealing in ORAS when every team wanted to depend on Tran+Rotom-W as their blanket check to everything in the meta, but not so much now. Honestly I feel like it's one of those mons that's better on paper, but we'll see.
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I admit I didn't know that was the recommended ORAS set, the one I used was the outdated one I guess. Anyway regardless of how healty Celesteela is it still taking 25-30 per hit rocks aside, lefties is the only way of recovering against it and you take a hit on the first turn, take another when you attack and one more for the second attack, the mons I mentioned wall it under with no issues, celes gives a ton of damage but its also taking a lot of damge it needs to be healty enough to take the hits.

You mentioned meta trends against it, there also trends going for it like latios and ttar on the rise which it can handle reasonable well, rock slide in my opinion is a subpar choice only hitting Zard-Y and Volcarona, which any good team must will have a solution for, meanwhile you're stopped by something else, drop HpFire Steels not named heatran, drop quake tran walls you put rocks, toxic, trap a mon and so on.

Also you missed my point, never once I said M-Scep was a solution for all those mons just its not dead weight and can hit back well enough and I didn't say it was a better pick than M-pinsir, M-Mawile or M-zam, just its good enough to justify a team slot. Its a good pokemon with shortcomings which still can put good work on the meta.
 
DownAbove said:
I never mentioned it was dead weight. If it was dead weight, then there would be zero reason to use it but I clearly said it was by no means a terrible mon word for word in a post. No one's stopping you from using it as your mega, but I think there's nothing wrong with saying the other megas are better.

Still don't see how you think it fares well vs Steela as, excluding Protect, it only 4hkos, even after rocks. Please don't argue that. Your scenario of taking three hits only applies to if you predict Steela coming in and I'm not even sure why you would stay in on it in the first place.

Yes, Latios and TTar do help it. I still haven't seen much TTar higher ladder and I don't feel like the recent traction Latios has gotten outweighs flying types, webs, Weavile, and steels. Not to mention that I'm not sure if you realize just how good Volc is - it's the best set up sweeper in the meta and people usually slap on a scarfer like Nihi/Terrak for it and that's it.

I'm not going to keep the pointless Sceptile discussion going. If you realy want to use it over Pinsir/other megas then be my guest, but please don't leave it in vs Celesteela.

On an unrelated note, what does Mew run nowadays? Is it fully physdef? Was never the biggest Mew fan but it seems to be the go-to defogger now so there's that. Also seems like Mega Pert is getting love from what I've been seeing - interesting option for all steel types, although Ferro is still a headache for rain teams.
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I didn't mentioned it how well or bad it fares against Celesteela neither I argue about it being a 4ko or 3ko just its not a counter or a wall to M-Scep,anyway let's drop this discussion here before it get even more out of hand. Defog mew runs full hp with enough speed to pass jolly bisharp the rest go for Sp.Def to tank better Special attackers since physical ones get burned, the nature goes between carefull if you wanna the mew to have knock off or calm if you want it to go special with psych, flamethrower or ice beam. I think mew is the contender for best defogger, it has good bulk and can do fine work against hazzards setters depending of the move choice, that might change a little if greninja start packing dark pulse but for now its the best one since it got reliable recover, not rocks weak, an its not a free bisahrp switch in, the other deffogers except skarmory lack one of those and skarmory has his own issues.

Edit: Niadev got it, was using the wrong spread for the mew.
 
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DownAbove said:
On an unrelated note, what does Mew run nowadays? Is it fully physdef? Was never the biggest Mew fan but it seems to be the go-to defogger now so there's that. Also seems like Mega Pert is getting love from what I've been seeing - interesting option for all steel types, although Ferro is still a headache for rain teams.
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Mew runs enough speed for Adamant max speed base 75s and Mega Mawile, enough HP and Defense to avoid the 2hko from Ada MMedi HJK, and enough Sp.Def to avoid the 2hko from non specs Moonblast. It's the standard spread on Mew's analysis, basically. Ofc it can be customised to the team's needs if need be, but this is generally what I find most useful.
 
Sueshidragon said:
Just thought I'd chip in here, because why not, it seems interesting. The two hot points here seem to be Stealth Rocks and Mega Sceptile, so here I go.

Mega Sceptile
I really like this thing as a Greninja counter, provided you aren't coming in on Ice Beam. It's ability to force it out, as well as other things provided it's amazing coverage, are really something. Not to mention it's fast as all hell. EQ kills Koko, who would otherwise leave a serious mark with HP Ice, and the only thing I can see walling this thing to any extent is Celesteela. It's fast, moderately bulky (v e r y moderately), and hits really hard. I can see it being a counter to a bunch of things, namely Greninja, Koko, Toxapex, and more. You need to be scarfed or named Mega Alakazam to outspeed this thing, and things like Landorus and Bulu have so few ways of denting this thing they have to flee on the spot. All in all, I think the amount of prominent stuff Sceptile checks is gonna make it a pretty big thing once it's allowed in PS.

Stealth Rocks
Paying careful attention to what Gary said, I have a few choice words on Rocks. One, it's a very over centralizing move, as 90~% of battles nowadays are won with some form of entry hazard support, Rocks chief among those. Whether or not the meta is better off without Rocks is not my call, and I'm not by any means whatsoever saying it would or wouldn't be. However, I do raise you another point, one that's been stated so far, and that's that most hazard setters are already great, and viable Pokemon, as well as vastly outnumbering and overpowering the few viable removers we have. Zapdos, Latios, and Skarmory are about the best viable hazard removers around, and while Zapdos has means of pressuring many setters, it also invalidates your own hazard setters. Spinners are a complete crush on momentum and really hard to bring in safely, as Excadrill isn't the fastest thing around, Starmie can't do much in the hit-taking category, and Tentacruel just plain sucks nowadays becuase Psychic STAB exists. Now, if you want to be that one weirdo who uses Tsareena as your spinner, you go right ahead. HOWEVER. In Rocks' defense, it keeps things like Dragonite, Mega Pinsir, and Charizard Y in check very well. It's easily the best form of entry hazard, and is certainly a strong point nowadays.

TL;DR: Mega Sceptile is pretty hecking good as a check to a bunch of stuff, and setters of Rocks outweigh the removers pretty bad.
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Doesn't Tapu Bulu get Megahorn? That would put a very big "dent" in Sceptile wouldn't it?
 
Marzbar said:
Doesn't Tapu Bulu get Megahorn? That would put a very big "dent" in Sceptile wouldn't it?
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Pretty much no Bulu ever runs Megahorn. The traditional Bulu has 2 Grass moves, Superpower, Swords Dance, Fightinium Z. Forgoing Horn Leech or Wood Hammer just for M-Scept is insane, but I can see where you're coming from.
 
Sueshidragon said:
Pretty much no Bulu ever runs Megahorn. The traditional Bulu has 2 Grass moves, Superpower, Swords Dance, Fightinium Z. Forgoing Horn Leech or Wood Hammer just for M-Scept is insane, but I can see where you're coming from.
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tbf they dont even run fight z rn since grass z is ten times better but yeah sceptile isnt a bulu switchin
 
Sueshidragon said:
Fight z kills the steels though? either way nobody is switching mscept in on bulu
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Fightinium-Z might kill steels, but there's nothing except like skarm and mega scizor that Grassium-Z doesn't heavily dent or straight up destroy. Literally anything without a quad resist is dead, including Magearna and Tangrowth and Zapdos and other bulky 2x resists. Celesteela takes more than half. Heatran and Ferrothorn don't require Fightinium to take out with +2 Superpower.

You just destroy a broader range of relevant metagame threats with Grassium. You may need to wear down a quad resist first, but it's not hard to pressure skarm and sciz.
 
Just to put into perspective the power of bulu

+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Grassy Terrain: 132-155 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So essentially everything else dies
 
I have seen a ton of mega swamp teams do you guys think that it's gonna be a thing or it's just new toy syndrome? Well I needed to switch primarina for AV tangrowth in my team cus I was getting swept really easy XD. Actually o think it's easier to fight against rain than NJPJ's SW or Imsorrylol's TR (not to mention stall) that rules the ladder, I just hope that nobody will make a really good team and then everybody starts stealing it, I hate faceing always the same teams.
 
I think it's a little bit of both. Rain has really improved a lot this gen from the last one, considering we finally got a rain setter that isn't completely dead weight. Pelipper was really the biggest blessing rain could've asked for, and stuff like tapu koko being able to spam incredibly powerful thunders with no risk of missing. When mega swampert was released, it was a little bit of new toy syndrome, but also I do genuinely believe pert has improved a lot since last gen (Or rather rain has improved a lot, and swampert improves because rain's viability has increased.)

I wonder to what extent rain will remain a viable playstyle after the whole new toy syndrome has worn off. No point in theorymoning, we'll just have to wait and see how the meta reacts.
 
Swampert did gain a major buff with the Mechanic change, since he doesn't need a turn to ME and benefit from Swift Swim, which makes him much safer to use for Rain teams without losing momentum, which is a major issue on a playstyle like Rain. He also definitely helps since Tapu Koko makes an Electric Immunity even more of a boon to rain.
 
So, Lopunnite, Galladite, and Gardevoirite are all going to be a thing sometime in July. Is there any point in talking about those now, or should we wait until their release is closer?
 
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