Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

[Toshiro46]

1. It's released already.

2. I think that MegaZam is too frail to be super effective, as it is essentially a worse Deoxys-Atttack; it has nice speed and SpAtk but has paper defenses. I think that for megas, Mawile or Medicham will likely become the best mega, as MegaMeta was what usually outclassed both of them.

Hm. So it is. I thought they were waiting til the 16th, though I suppose it's the 16th in most other places.

Pheromosa had half of MegaZam's defense and a third of its SpD, yet it was banned. My point stands that the recent suspects have very much been in favor of MegaZam, and the rise of lele brings more psychic terrain, which is perfect for MegaZam. The meta seems to be shifting in its favor.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

I think we will have to wait for some of the new Mega Evolutions before a truly dominant choice emerges. I don't see one of Mega Mawile / Mega Medicham / Mega Alakazam outclassing the others, especially since even those have significant downsides that prevent them from performing better than other Megas in certain situations. Mega Scizor is also due for a decline since most of the best Pokemon in the tier beat it one on one and Mew has emerged as another bulky Defog user to compete with it.

In my opinion the 135 Speed Megas (Lopunny, Manectric) and Mega Diancie will probably signal the next significant shift in Mega preference.

 

[Toshiro46]

I think we will have to wait for some of the new Mega Evolutions before a truly dominant choice emerges. I don't see one of Mega Mawile / Mega Medicham / Mega Alakazam outclassing the others, especially since even those have significant downsides that prevent them from performing better than other Megas in certain situations. Mega Scizor is also due for a decline since most of the best Pokemon in the tier beat it one on one and Mew has emerged as another bulky Defog user to compete with it.

In my opinion the 135 Speed Megas (Lopunny, Manectric) and Mega Diancie will probably signal the next significant shift in Mega preference.

It's funny, if Mega Diancie does become the best mega, we'll see Scizor rise again to offensively check it with BP.

Megagross had it all - speed, bulk, power, good typing. All the alternative megas we have now lack at least one of those. I think that's okay, it's nice to see diversity in the mega slot.

 

[pika pal]

A thing to note about the Mega absence from A+ and S is that the rankings haven't had time to reflect a post Metagross meta, and beforehand, while niches could be found, Metagross was simply the best use of the Mega slot, and thus anything being used brought "can't use Mega Metagross" among its list of short comings. Hopefully nothing else makes the Mega-Slot such a premium in the new meta.

 

[OldAmberPlays]

It's funny, if Mega Diancie does become the best mega, we'll see Scizor rise again to offensively check it with BP.

If lele continues on the OU tier (thing that I think that will happen), Mega Diancie will form a very good core with her, blocking priority from Scizor and Medicham, while the Diamond Storm buff makes her a very difficult Pokémon to take down physically.


252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 152-180 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 182-216 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 102-120 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Thankfully, Scarf Keldeo, Tapu Koko Magnet, Scarle Lele, Celesteela and Ferrothorn are examples of mons who can knock her down one hit, while Growth can swallow some hits.

252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 240-284 (99.5 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (85 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. +2 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 268-324 (111.2 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 288-340 (119.5 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

248 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

8 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

248 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 112-132 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- 84.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Usually, Mega Diancie runs with Naive Nature, so, some of this moves/mons will be more easy to kill her

 

[The Loog Noog]

I just wanted to talk about what I believe are the best mega Pokemon for each of the most dominant playstyles right now, but make sure to keep in mind this is pending the release of several new megas that people are expecting such as Mega Heracross, which will likely be the new standard mega for baton pass.

Sticky Web Offense/Hyper Offense

Pinsir is the cornerstone mega of sticky web offense, as flying resists on offense are really scarce, and the most of the ones that there are (Mawile, Magearna, Tapu Koko, etc.) can all be handled with a swift earthquake. Swords Dance can make this thing a very threatening setup sweeper, and it has a bit of leeway when it comes to its filler move because it can also run Stone Edge for Zapdos and the Steel/Fighting types or Close Combat if you're really getting annoyed by Rotom-W, which isn't exactly the most relevant Pokemon right now. Obviously Mega Pinsir still has a crippling weakness to rocks and can still be checked by a few offensive threats, but the influx of webs offense is really good for Pinsir because a lot of its normal offensive checks such as Choice Scarf Garchomp and Tapu Koko suddenly can't deal with it like they can when webs aren't up, so you can be swept really easily if your team doesn't have a solid Pinsir counter.

Bulky Offense/Baton Pass/Trick Room Offense

Mawile is another great mega right now and is in my opinion the best mega for bulky offensive, trick room, and baton pass teams, which are 3 of the most common playstyles in the meta as of right now. Under trick room, Mawile is an absolute monster, being able to smash through most of the metagame with Play Rough and melting through Steel-types with its coverage moves. Outside of trick room, Mawile is still an absolute monster, being able to sweep through teams with an SD set with an insanely strong sucker punch coupled with the scariest play rough in the tier along with its amazing coverage movepool. Mega Mawile is basically impossible to safely wall and has two really scary threats in AoA and SD, not to mention that it has the ability to run rocks if your team requires it.

Stall

Mega Sableye is honestly the only mega worth using on stall right now, and for good reason. Mega Sableye can basically control the hazard game for your team and set up the early game for you to do well going forward. The borderline broken (in the community's majority perspective) relationship this mon has with Dugtrio, along with its ability to deter common methods of dealing with stall such as taunt stallbreakers, makes it the optimal choice for stall as it provides so much utility and can overall be a really strong Pokemon to use overall. Additionally, Mega Sableye counters many Pokemon that would otherwise be quite a bit more annoying for stall teams to handle such as Mega Medicham and Stallbreaker Mew, which only furthers its value. I'm pretty sure that half of this subforum's competent playerbase could write up an essay on Sableye, but I'll just leave it off here before this starts dragging on.

I hope you guys enjoyed this post and found it insightful. Thank you and have a great day!

 

[Kutscher]

While I agree that mega scizor should drop(mew and zapdos rise, metagross leave) I don't think he is going to drop to much, he is one of the best counters for CB zygarde(takes more damage than tangrowth, but doesn't get weakened by toxic, and the sets that used hp ice have an ice beam tnks to techinichian), and the tier still needs defoggers, other than that, yeah he needs to drop.

Pinsir is arguably the best mega for rain teams too(even that rain isn't as common as Other playstyles)

I just wanted to talk about what I believe are the best mega Pokemon for each of the most dominant playstyles right now, but make sure to keep in mind this is pending the release of several new megas that people are expecting such as Mega Heracross, which will likely be the new standard mega for baton pass.

Sticky Web Offense/Hyper Offense

Pinsir is the cornerstone mega of sticky web offense, as flying resists on offense are really scarce, and the most of the ones that there are (Mawile, Magearna, Tapu Koko, etc.) can all be handled with a swift earthquake. Swords Dance can make this thing a very threatening setup sweeper, and it has a bit of leeway when it comes to its filler move because it can also run Stone Edge for Zapdos and the Steel/Fighting types or Close Combat if you're really getting annoyed by Rotom-W, which isn't exactly the most relevant Pokemon right now. Obviously Mega Pinsir still has a crippling weakness to rocks and can still be checked by a few offensive threats, but the influx of webs offense is really good for Pinsir because a lot of its normal offensive checks such as Choice Scarf Garchomp and Tapu Koko suddenly can't deal with it like they can when webs aren't up, so you can be swept really easily if your team doesn't have a solid Pinsir counter.

Bulky Offense/Baton Pass/Trick Room Offense

Mawile is another great mega right now and is in my opinion the best mega for bulky offensive, trick room, and baton pass teams, which are 3 of the most common playstyles in the meta as of right now. Under trick room, Mawile is an absolute monster, being able to smash through most of the metagame with Play Rough and melting through Steel-types with its coverage moves. Outside of trick room, Mawile is still an absolute monster, being able to sweep through teams with an SD set with an insanely strong sucker punch coupled with the scariest play rough in the tier along with its amazing coverage movepool. Mega Mawile is basically impossible to safely wall and has two really scary threats in AoA and SD, not to mention that it has the ability to run rocks if your team requires it.

Stall/Balance (don't use balance)

Mega Sableye is honestly the only mega worth using on stall right now, and for good reason. Mega Sableye can basically control the hazard game for your team and set up the early game for you to do well going forward. The borderline broken (in the community's majority perspective) relationship this mon has with Dugtrio, along with its ability to deter common methods of dealing with stall such as taunt stallbreakers, makes it the optimal choice for stall as it provides so much utility and can overall be a really strong Pokemon to use overall. Additionally, Mega Sableye counters many Pokemon that would otherwise be quite a bit more annoying for stall teams to handle such as Mega Medicham and Stallbreaker Mew, which only furthers its value. I'm pretty sure that half of this subforum's competent playerbase could write up an essay on Sableye, but I'll just leave it off here before this starts dragging on.

I hope you guys enjoyed this post and found it insightful. Thank you and have a great day!

 

[YoungAndMenace]

Victini is such a slept on mon right now, Fire is such a good type in this meta as evidenced by the rise of volcarona, but splashable fire types are hard to come by outside of the aforementioned volc, heatran, alowak, and mega zard x/y (which require hazard control and mega spot). Victini fits nicely on a lot of teams and has an extremely spammable v create in a meta where tank chomps, pursuit tyranitars, heatrans, and hippo/quagsire stall are all far less common than gen 6. Also less common are mons like rocky helmet slowbro and rotom w which would ruin tini's fun before. Scarftini, the best set right now imo, can outrun non scarf dugtrio (beware v create drop) and avoid capture and can grab momentum with u turn. It can also lure more easily with glaciate against lando, zygarde, and chomp since it doesn't really need fusion bolt to beat waters when 2/3 of the most comm waters- keldeo, toxapex, and fini- lose to zen. Tini serves as a great offensive check to volc, tang, celesteela, magearna, lele, ferro, medicham, skarm, bulu, rachi, serp, and Zard y, while also conditionally checking/revenge killing with ease scizor, zam, amoonguss, mew, sableye (switch on wisp and deal massive damage with v create though risky), clefable, magnezone, can live a quick attack from +2 pinsir, etc. Basically victini provides a ton of defensive synergy to a team while providing splashability (rocks removal is about it), absurd power and spammability and versatility to get by limited checks. It's unique typing and great stats and movepool make it a fantastic blanket check to common threats otherwise hard to deal with.

Also, ice is a great type in this meta and Mamo and weavile are both slept on. Mamo in particular thrives in a meta where the top balance cores consist so commonly of mons like Lando, zygarde, chomp, toxapex, tangrowth, magearna, and zapdos (use thick fat for heat wave) that get ripped up. Only common mons stopping him are celesteela (can't come in multiple times due to lack of real recovery) and the rarer skarm and rotom w. This guy breaks so many balanced teams although it is hard to get in due to poor defensive typing outside of against zapdos or a volt switch block. Still absolutely devastating.

 

[Reviloja753]

As Baton Pass has a somewhat good chance of being banned from OU (every person on the thread agrees iirc) I would like to talk about how this would effect the metagame.

Scolipede
Oh Scolipede- the king of BP. Without its main niche, Scolipede will likely drop off of the face of the earth in terms of being viable in OU, at least compared to its role right now. It might still have a niche, being the only SpeedSweeper (a sweeper that gets speed boost) with Sub and SD, but it will likely drop down to at least BL if UU finds it too much. In terms of VR, I can see this thing dropping to something like C+ at best.

Shedinja
The fate of DryPass has yet to be seen, but if banned, Shedinja is going to take a hit. Right now, it is only seen on stall paired up with Duggy. Shed usually uses BP into Duggy, trapping the foe. It then hard switches back into Shed. It effectively uses two PP for each BP. Without Baton Pass, ShedStall will be a lot harder to pull off. Rank-wise, I can see C- or UR.

Espeon
Arguably the best receiver for ScoliPass, Espeon is going to completely disappear from OU, even more so than Scolipede. It is already in RU, so it won't drop in tier, but it will essentially never be seen again. Heck, I'm willing to bet it will be UR if BP gets banned (which it likely will be).

All in all, the metagame is headed towards a huge shift if Baton Pass is banned.

P.S: As for the other receivers and users, they will likely be as good as before, with the exception of Chesnaught, who will also drop off the face of the earth.

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

As Baton Pass has a somewhat good chance of being banned from OU (every person on the thread agrees iirc) I would like to talk about how this would effect the metagame.

Scolipede
Oh Scolipede- the king of BP. Without its main niche, Scolipede will likely drop off of the face of the earth in terms of being viable in OU, at least compared to its role right now. It might still have a niche, being the only SpeedSweeper (a sweeper that gets speed boost) with Sub and SD, but it will likely drop down to at least BL if UU finds it too much. In terms of VR, I can see this thing dropping to something like C+ at best.

Shedinja
The fate of DryPass has yet to be seen, but if banned, Shedinja is going to take a hit. Right now, it is only seen on stall paired up with Duggy. Shed usually uses BP into Duggy, trapping the foe. It then hard switches back into Shed. It effectively uses two PP for each BP. Without Baton Pass, ShedStall will be a lot harder to pull off. Rank-wise, I can see C- or UR.

Espeon
Arguably the best receiver for ScoliPass, Espeon is going to completely disappear from OU, even more so than Scolipede. It is already in RU, so it won't drop in tier, but it will essentially never be seen again. Heck, I'm willing to bet it will be UR if BP gets banned (which it likely will be).

All in all, the metagame is headed towards a huge shift if Baton Pass is banned.

P.S: As for the other receivers and users, they will likely be as good as before, with the exception of Chesnaught, who will also drop off the face of the earth.

Even though Scolipede is currently being used for baton pass teams, the sd waterium z set is by no means a set that will drop it all the way to c plus, if anything, it will be gaining even more traction should baton pass receive the boot. The ability to lure in and potentially knock out things that would otherwise give scolipede trouble such as lando and mega scizor is really valuable to offensive teams, as scolipede synergizes very well with other offensive mons that weaken said checks. Scolipede's sd set poses quite a threat against a good number of teams, so I think scolipede won't be dropping more than a subrank, if it even drops.

 

[Reviloja753]

I'm going to have to disagree with your speculation about scolipede. Even though it's currently being used for baton pass teams, the sd waterium z set is by no means a set that will drop it all the way to c plus, if anything, it will be gaining even more traction should baton pass receive the boot. The ability to lure in and potentially knock out things that would otherwise give scolipede trouble such as lando and mega scizor is really valuable to offensive teams, as scolipede synergizes very well with other offensive mons that weaken said checks. Scolipede's sd set poses quite a threat against a good number of teams, so I think scolipede won't be dropping more than a subrank, if it even drops.

In my defense, I had no idea it existed, as ScoliPass is its claim to fame. Still, I stand by my opinion that it would likely drop down to BL or UU. With the set you list, it would likely go down to B.

 

[Leo]

As Baton Pass has a somewhat good chance of being banned from OU (every person on the thread agrees iirc) I would like to talk about how this would effect the metagame.

Scolipede
Oh Scolipede- the king of BP. Without its main niche, Scolipede will likely drop off of the face of the earth in terms of being viable in OU, at least compared to its role right now. It might still have a niche, being the only SpeedSweeper (a sweeper that gets speed boost) with Sub and SD, but it will likely drop down to at least BL if UU finds it too much. In terms of VR, I can see this thing dropping to something like C+ at best.

Shedinja
The fate of DryPass has yet to be seen, but if banned, Shedinja is going to take a hit. Right now, it is only seen on stall paired up with Duggy. Shed usually uses BP into Duggy, trapping the foe. It then hard switches back into Shed. It effectively uses two PP for each BP. Without Baton Pass, ShedStall will be a lot harder to pull off. Rank-wise, I can see C- or UR.

Espeon
Arguably the best receiver for ScoliPass, Espeon is going to completely disappear from OU, even more so than Scolipede. It is already in RU, so it won't drop in tier, but it will essentially never be seen again. Heck, I'm willing to bet it will be UR if BP gets banned (which it likely will be).

All in all, the metagame is headed towards a huge shift if Baton Pass is banned.

P.S: As for the other receivers and users, they will likely be as good as before, with the exception of Chesnaught, who will also drop off the face of the earth.

Well, the point of this thread is discussing the current metagame so you should try to avoid theorymoning even though it's pretty obvious that bp won't be a thing in a matter of days. Just wait until the ban happens and give the meta a couple of days before making these kind of noms

 

[Sun King]

Gotta be honest, the state of the metagame is abysmal. The fact that there are no really GOOD hazard removers (and by this, I mean every remover loses to a hazard setter or many of them) shows this. I reeeeally hope the next suspect is soon, because this meta is borderline unplayable because every team is Hazards+Greninja (either form)+wallbreaking mega.

We can do better than this in terms of metagame regulation.

 

[Marzbar]

Even though Scolipede is currently being used for baton pass teams, the sd waterium z set is by no means a set that will drop it all the way to c plus, if anything, it will be gaining even more traction should baton pass receive the boot. The ability to lure in and potentially knock out things that would otherwise give scolipede trouble such as lando and mega scizor is really valuable to offensive teams, as scolipede synergizes very well with other offensive mons that weaken said checks. Scolipede's sd set poses quite a threat against a good number of teams, so I think scolipede won't be dropping more than a subrank, if it even drops.

Does Scolipede also have some viable use as a Spikes/Toxic Spikes setter with Focus Sash?

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Does Scolipede also have some viable use as a Spikes/Toxic Spikes setter with Focus Sash?

no

 

[Leo]

Does Scolipede also have some viable use as a Spikes/Toxic Spikes setter with Focus Sash?

Suicide Lead Scoli saw some usage last gen with double spikes endeavor megahorn but I don't know if it's still good

 

[Martin]

My biggest issue with suicide lead Scoli, at least last gen, came from a combination of TSpikes lacking potency and the fact that it had no way of mindgaming or even damaging Mega Sableye. While TSpikes are definitely more potent in this metagame to a debatable degree of notability, I think it in very large part falls down to the fact that Toxapex gives us an actually good TSpiker for the first time in at least two generations combining with how dismal a state hazard control is in this metagame. It's really hard to stop Toxapex laying them consistently short of a Magic Bounce user or Taunt due to just how fat it is, and it can do so repeatedly too thanks to Regen and the aforementioned bulk. I simply don't think the impact of TSpikes is immediate enough for pure HO to be able to take advantage of, especially considering that it will typically only get one chance to lay, and you have Greninja (which, coincidentally, can also lay TSpikes alongside Spikes) and even suicide Skarm which do the job better on the types of teams that a suicide lead would be used on than Scolipede does. The set isn't unviable by any means, but I just can't see how I'd ever justify using it a lot of the time and would go as far as saying that the only notable niche Scolipede would have in a meta without BP would be its SD+Waterium set.

 

[Le Val]

Toxic Spikes I think is a bit more viable this gen then it has been in previous gens. Hazard control is pretty inconsistent I have noticed. Besides, poison types, which can switch in to and eliminate toxic spikes, and are the easiest solution to them, are not as common. Pokemon like gengar and amoongus have dropped significantly in usage this gen. The only poison types that could preform this role would be toxapex, mega-venusaur, alolan-muk, and nihilego. The only other poison types in the tier are scolipede and beedrill.

 

[Gary]

Gengar is definitely not less common than it was last gen. The usage stats are not updated, but compared to last gen, Gengar is significantly more common and relevant on ladder and tournament play.

 

[BlisseyandChansey123]

I'm just wondering what would happen if Landorus-T was banned from OU like in last gen.

Opinions about this I'll listen to:) (This doesn't mean that I find the other stuff in this thread boring, they are very interesting)

 

[1234hjkl]

If lando is gone then lots and lots of Physical attackers end up better, in fact I can't think a single physical mon who won't benefit from it. Lando-T is argueably the best poké from the tier because it can do lots of very important jobs in one mon from soft-check Physical mons, scout or revenge kill with a scarf, set up rocks, sweep, it can even go special if you want to surprise your wanna be checks. All in all in one mon you got a lot of role compression, who needs minimal to no support to do his job well. There is a reason why it has so much usage, while I am tired of seeing that stupid flying mutt, I won't denny why it is considered a step above the others.

 

[TheMohZone]

I'm just wondering what would happen if Landorus-T was banned from OU like in last gen.

Opinions about this I'll listen to:) (This doesn't mean that I find the other stuff in this thread boring, they are very interesting)

Landorus-T wasn't banned last gen, just Landorus-I, like this Gen.

 

[BlisseyandChansey123]

Whops. Sorry about that. It is Landorus-I that I mean.
I agree. Lando IS currently the best pokemon in the tier(refer to viability rankings). I won't be surprised if it will be suspected soon and banned(just a speculation)

 

[IQMathlete]

Nah, Lando-T won't be banned. Just like Clefable last gen, it is undeniably good but not overwhelmingly broken. It has a wide variety of checks and counters (unlike its counterpart, which had only a few obscure counters)

 

[TheMohZone]

Whops. Sorry about that. It is Landorus-I that I mean.
I agree. Lando IS currently the best pokemon in the tier(refer to viability rankings). I won't be surprised if it will be suspected soon and banned(just a speculation)

i'm pretty sure we aren't ment to talk about potential bans here, but Landos going nowhere before Greninja at the very least, Baton Pass will probably be looked at too before anybody even thinks of suspecting Lando and even then why bother? its a great blanket mon and yes its omnipresent but nothing about it is broken, its not gonna eat your team alive for guessing the wrong set Like Meta, Phero or, in the case of something not banned, Gren.

Its just really really good, but not overcentralizing or stiffling or broken, so it won't get banned.