I think the release of Megacham will give Mimikyu a buff, as it would be the perfect switch-in, maybe using Tyranitar or Terrakion as a lure for a HJK. You would then switch in Mimikyu and watch Megacham suffer. It's especially good for it as it can retaliate the next turn with Play Rough, Shadow Sneak or Shadow Claw.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3
- Thread starter Gary
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Ema Skye
Work!
Having a Ghost on your team really helps with the Medicham matchup, as it has to be very wary of clicking HJK, less it takes 50% in recoil. Mega Sableye is an actual counter (barring Electric Terrain Thunder Punch), and can burn it to neuter it all game. It wasn't until after Sableye's ban that Mega Medicham was realized to be this fearsome attacker, as it was basically deadweight against any team with Mega Sableye. Mimikyu is another cool option here, and it can set up on Medicham before revenge killing it (Medicham's Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO). Sets lacking Zen Headbutt are absolutely walled by Alolan Marowak as well.
Mega Slowbro is the other counter, as Mega Medicham, again, can't break it without a boosted Thunder Punch. That said, Slowbro's viability seems questionable in SUMO, but the introduction of Medicham nonetheless works in its favor. If Greninja ever gets banned, it might be what Slowbro needs to come back to the top of OU.
Necrozma isn't great (it is ranked on the VR though), and the Stored Power set will always be 3HKOed, but you do have recovery options. HJK does 45% max. Reuniclus is another bulky Psychic that isn't terribly viable (also ranked on VR), and is also 3HKOed by HJK. Jolly Medicham also 3HKOs bulky Mew, which makes it another interesting option for a utility mon even though it isn't very viable this time. Nonetheless, they're options.
Beyond that, nothing switches into Medicham. Fortunately, nothing allows Medicham the opportunity to switch in either (60/75/75 bulk pre-Mega is really bad), and as long as you're smart and limit how many times it comes in, you should be fine. Hazard damage and Rocky Helmet are more options to widdle it down before revenge killing it.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
So there's a lot of discussion regarding the Mosa ban and Mega Medicham... can't say I have a lot to add there.
On a side note, I've noticed that there is a team consisting of Smeargle / Bisharp / Mimikyu / Celesteela / Zygarde 50% / Mega Pinsir. I've seen this team literally about 3 or 4 times on ladder, and I'm wondering if there's an RMT to it?
On a side note, I've noticed that there is a team consisting of Smeargle / Bisharp / Mimikyu / Celesteela / Zygarde 50% / Mega Pinsir. I've seen this team literally about 3 or 4 times on ladder, and I'm wondering if there's an RMT to it?
Right off of the bat gonna chuck out a few observations based on my (admittedly limited) time on the suspect ladder and in the Medichamite meta:
Rapid Spin: With Pheromosa gone from the tier, hazard control on offense is in a bit of a dismal state. All defoggers blow chunks, all spinners blow chunks. However, the departure of Pheromosa has opened up a small niche for Starmie in that it is now the only fast, un-scarfed spinner in the game that isn't completely unviable (see: Cryogonal) and there are no viable spinblockers. In a meta where Spikes is completely busted due to lacking hazard control options, noone really preps for Starmie spinning by bringing Jellicent and, as such, there isn't really anything viable that stops it doing so. It just generally is nice for role compression, although Greninja/Koko existing are huge headaches for it.
Mega Medicham and Alolan Marowak: As expected, Mega Medicham is completely nuts. Having the single strongest attack in the game in HJK does wonders for this Pokemon's ability to really tear defensive Pokemon apart, and with the introduction of terrains allowing it to circumvent some of its biggest headaches, it really is just really, really, threatening. Speaking of double Atk stat nukes, I saw Ema Skye mentioning that Alolan Wak is taking a huge hit from the lost of Pheromosa, but on the Pheroless ladder I found that it was still one of the most useful Pokemon in team building because of the way that it keeps a lot of extremely useful stuff in check (don't undersell how important discouraging the use of TBolt/blocking Volt Switch w/o being weak to HP Ice/neutral to Gleam is for offense), and furthermore with the introduction of Mega Medicham it is able to stop it mindlessly spamming HJK whilst completely shutting down BoltBeam+Fake Out sets with no repercussions at all if it carries Lightning Rod. FerroWak still completely dumps on teams even when they carry Mag due to Ferro being able to double into Wak right as Mag comes in for a free kill (seriously, people never realise how weak their teams are to Wak until they get steamrolled by it). Non-Pyuku stall also still has a grand total of 0 answers for it--especially if it carries Rock Head and, as such, doesn't need to fish for Def drops to take down PhysDef Unaware Clefable if it gets a free switch--and honestly I can't see Alolan Marowak ever doing anything other than hovering at around A-/B+ just because I can't see it ever realistically not having that level of utility.
Both Greninjas: Fuck both of these Pokemon. When building offense I'm finding myself feeling unfairly pigoenholed into an extremely small pool of Pokemon in order to not be steamrolled by either of these, and it is incredibly frustrating because it means that all of my builds look fucking identical. I don't want to have to carry one of AV Tang, Tapu Fini or Primarina to not get steamrolled by Ash Greninja, and as such I just find the way it pigoenholes me into stuff like this to be incredibly unhealthy. And we all know the deal with Protean Greninja; if you don't have Ferro or Toxapex you're gonna have an extremely hard time stopping this thing just coming out and getting a kill or crippling something every time, and given that HP Fire is everywhere now you can't even fall back on Ferro all that consistently and have to really go out of your way to play around it. To add insult to injury, Spikes has little-to-no counter-play anymore and both of them click Spikes without really losing much by doing so. I don't like either of these at all.
Mega Metagross: If you don't want this thing banned, you also want to watch the meta be stale for the rest of the generation. This may sound like me being harsh on the anti-banners, but the way that this thing restricts building is one of the biggest reasons why building in SM OU fucking blows, and there is little--if any--counter argument for this, and it just needs to fucking go imho.
Spikes: Due to the dismal state of hazard control in this meta, Spikes is just incredibly stupid to deal with. Greninja and Ferrothorn spike on quite literally the whole meta, and it just means that a lot of teams find themselves getting overwhelmed by it while also turning a lot of games into who can get their Spikes up first; Spike wars between Ferrothorns aren't an uncommon sight at all, and it is just incredibly nuts to deal with on the whole.
Rotom-W: Rotom-W comes across as anti-meta to me. There is very little really in terms of 'mons that can stop it Volt Switching on the meta due to all of them either dropping to Hydro or being crippled by Wisp, and as such it just poses a very large threat to a lot of offensive teams without them really realising it, and its immunity to Spikes means that you can't even punish it with stacking. Preparing for this in the traditional sense is honestly just harder than ever because Volt Switch really fucks with the concept of checking Electric-types with resistances. I'm interested to see whether this things usage increases, because honestly like Rotom-W is one of the most infuriating things to deal with atm.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
Yeah, I think Pheromosa was the only reason Awak was anywhere near OU to begin with. Am I correct to say anti-meta =/= good?
Speaking of Pheromosa going, I'm guessing stallbreakers like Zygarde / Gliscor are going to be coming back pretty hard?
Speaking of Pheromosa going, I'm guessing stallbreakers like Zygarde / Gliscor are going to be coming back pretty hard?
Reading that immediately makes me think back to the tail end of ORAS OU before the Sablenite ban with Skill Swap Azelf. A Pokemon that stayed out of OU for the most part of ORAS rose to meet the usage requirements, and it wasn't even considered particularly good, until people picked up on its anti-meta properties.
You are technically right, because a Pokemon doesn't have to be extremely good to be great in one format, one case and point being Bisharp last gen being able to punish Sticky Web and Defog, on a Pokemon that was otherwise considered meh by it's stat spread. There are definitely others, but I'll be brief.
As for the stallbreakers like CoilGarde and Gliscor, they would probably see more use, because stall and balanced offense will probably pick up more use since the roach is gone.
The biggest thing I have seen more of is Mega Metagross. I'll probably get some hate for this, but I don't think Metagross is unmanageable like some people think it is. With Pheromosa's ban, I think it's checks and counters can survive more easily.
Examples being:
- Both Greninjas (with Dark Pulse)
- Mega Scizor
- Skarmory
- Ferrothorn
- Bulky Volcarona
- Scarfed Ground types
Again, there's definitely more that can check Mega Meta, but Pheromosa either scared out, switched out, or destroyed all of those examples alone.
Just my two cents, although you don't have to take my word for it.
I don't think so. It can't just switch in for free. If Medicham uses Ice Punch or Thunder Punch on Mimikyu's switch, and breaks the disguise it no longer can just switch in. The Elemental Punches do 71-84% to LO Mimikyu if Adamant, and 65-77% if Jolly.That is a guaranteed 2HKO no matter what. Zen Headbutt just OHKOs. Also, without the disguise it also is easily pressured by every other mon now with ease.
Also, in your scenario, nobody smart is just gonna click HJK if they see a Ghost on your team. They will either switch, or click a different move.
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I don't know if ferrothorn is a check to mega gross since even max def is 2hkoed by hammer arm after leftovers. Seed/protect might change that but... idk. Most of the time I have a gross facing ferro I just hit hammer arm.
I looked up the commands for Mega Meta in OU rn and it has roughly 22% usage on the ladder. That's an interesting thing I thought about, although I don't think most smart players would either kill off or risk killing off their Mega for 1 Pokemon, unless the rest of the team can handle the opponent.
Rocky Helmet Ferro with Leech Seed can devastate Mega Meta if Meta wants to do Hammer Arm. It'll take about half HP in damage from just killing it, and that's assuming it doesn't Leech Seed and/or Protect on it, in which case they will almost trade with each other. And ofc that's not accounting for Rox or Spikes.
Although as always, on paper =/= in practice.
EDIT: Hammer Arm has 22% usage on the ladder.
A lot of Megagross are running EQ over Hammer Arm to fare better in the common mirror match with itself as well as to hit things like Mega Mawile and Magearna harder. Ferro's by no means a counter, but it's capable of pivoting in to help scout the coverage Gross is running, as well as inflicting chip damage with Iron Barbs if Gross clicks one of it's STABs or one of it's elemental punches. Typically, a core of Ferro and Lando will be enough to scout and handle Gross, and most teams pack something like a DPulse Greninja, Sash Duggy or Scarf Gengar to revenge kill it.
On the topic of Spikes, as others have mentioned, Hazard Control is dismal with mosa gone, especially for Offense. Fini isn't anywhere near it's early SuMo days of viability, Exca in a meta where Lando is on 50% of teams is lol and it's quite slow anyways, Starmie's only niche over Gren is Rapid Spin, Zapdos and Skarmory only really fit on bulkier teams, Latios in a meta with this much Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile (hell double steel is standard at this point and the only Tapu that dislikes lati is Koko, who still hits it reasonably hard with U-turn) is lol, Defog Kartana could be decent but it's got a number of it's own problems such as being slow for the current metagame, and the few clearers that are decent all have issues with some Greninja set anyways. I've really been liking Ferrothorn atm as a Spiker, as it can force out attackers such as Tapu Koko, MMeta running EQ and Ash Greninja in order to set Spikes, and no Phero to threaten it out and play the Quiver Dance mindgame is really nice. I find Gren's a bit too prediction reliant, and considering ladder stays in on freaking everything or makes plays that make me wonder what colourful substances they've been sampling, it's not as consistent as I'd like.
I couldn't agree with you more on nearly every one of these, and I'll elaborate a few of my own thoughts on top.Right off of the bat gonna chuck out a few observations based on my (admittedly limited) time on the suspect ladder and in the Medichamite meta:
Rapid Spin: With Pheromosa gone from the tier, hazard control on offense is in a bit of a dismal state. All defoggers blow chunks, all spinners blow chunks. However, the departure of Pheromosa has opened up a small niche for Starmie in that it is now the only fast, un-scarfed spinner in the game that isn't completely unviable (see: Cryogonal) and there are no viable spinblockers. In a meta where Spikes is completely busted due to lacking hazard control options, noone really preps for Starmie spinning by bringing Jellicent and, as such, there isn't really anything viable that stops it doing so. It just generally is nice for role compression, although Greninja/Koko existing are huge headaches for it.
Mega Medicham and Alolan Marowak: As expected, Mega Medicham is completely nuts. Having the single strongest attack in the game in HJK does wonders for this Pokemon's ability to really tear defensive Pokemon apart, and with the introduction of terrains allowing it to circumvent some of its biggest headaches, it really is just really, really, threatening. Speaking of double Atk stat nukes, I saw Ema Skye mentioning that Alolan Wak is taking a huge hit from the lost of Pheromosa, but on the Pheroless ladder I found that it was still one of the most useful Pokemon in team building because of the way that it keeps a lot of extremely useful stuff in check (don't undersell how important discouraging the use of TBolt/blocking Volt Switch w/o being weak to HP Ice/neutral to Gleam is for offense), and furthermore with the introduction of Mega Medicham it is able to stop it mindlessly spamming HJK whilst completely shutting down BoltBeam+Fake Out sets with no repercussions at all if it carries Lightning Rod. FerroWak still completely dumps on teams even when they carry Mag due to Ferro being able to double into Wak right as Mag comes in for a free kill (seriously, people never realise how weak their teams are to Wak until they get steamrolled by it). Non-Pyuku stall also still has a grand total of 0 answers for it--especially if it carries Rock Head and, as such, doesn't need to fish for Def drops to take down PhysDef Unaware Clefable if it gets a free switch--and honestly I can't see Alolan Marowak ever doing anything other than hovering at around A-/B+ just because I can't see it ever realistically not having that level of utility.
Both Greninjas: Fuck both of these Pokemon. When building offense I'm finding myself feeling unfairly pigoenholed into an extremely small pool of Pokemon in order to not be steamrolled by either of these, and it is incredibly frustrating because it means that all of my builds look fucking identical. I don't want to have to carry one of AV Tang, Tapu Fini or Primarina to not get steamrolled by Ash Greninja, and as such I just find the way it pigoenholes me into stuff like this to be incredibly unhealthy. And we all know the deal with Protean Greninja; if you don't have Ferro or Toxapex you're gonna have an extremely hard time stopping this thing just coming out and getting a kill or crippling something every time, and given that HP Fire is everywhere now you can't even fall back on Ferro all that consistently and have to really go out of your way to play around it. To add insult to injury, Spikes has little-to-no counter-play anymore and both of them click Spikes without really losing much by doing so. I don't like either of these at all.
Mega Metagross: If you don't want this thing banned, you also want to watch the meta be stale for the rest of the generation. This may sound like me being harsh on the anti-banners, but the way that this thing restricts building is one of the biggest reasons why building in SM OU fucking blows, and there is little--if any--counter argument for this, and it just needs to fucking go imho.
Spikes: Due to the dismal state of hazard control in this meta, Spikes is just incredibly stupid to deal with. Greninja and Ferrothorn spike on quite literally the whole meta, and it just means that a lot of teams find themselves getting overwhelmed by it while also turning a lot of games into who can get their Spikes up first; Spike wars between Ferrothorns aren't an uncommon sight at all, and it is just incredibly nuts to deal with on the whole.
Rotom-W: Rotom-W comes across as anti-meta to me. There is very little really in terms of 'mons that can stop it Volt Switching on the meta due to all of them either dropping to Hydro or being crippled by Wisp, and as such it just poses a very large threat to a lot of offensive teams without them really realising it, and its immunity to Spikes means that you can't even punish it with stacking. Preparing for this in the traditional sense is honestly just harder than ever because Volt Switch really fucks with the concept of checking Electric-types with resistances. I'm interested to see whether this things usage increases, because honestly like Rotom-W is one of the most infuriating things to deal with atm.
Starmie: The only thing I disagree with is that every other Spinner/Defogger is ass; Exca is p decent, and Tapu Fini isn't atrocious either. They're just so predictable, which is why I agree with you that Starmie now has a niche as premier Hazard removal b/c it can punish all attempts to stop it from doing its job. It's also capable of hitting decently hard and fast, so it fills multiple niches.
Medicham: 100% agree this is nuts. Terrain makes it capable of manhandling things it normally would have a problem with. I would argue that HJK/Zen Headbutt/ThunderPunch are mandatory because bopping things in E-Terrain is too good to pass up, and Zen Headbutt removes all (non-Sableye) Ghost-type counterplay as it OHKOs all of them. Additionally, Zen hits things like Venu and Pex, making Medicham the wrecking ball of OU once again. It's going to be so easy to pressure teams once you get it in safely. I can see things like Ferro picking up Protect just to try to wear it down and play mind games.
Marowak: Once again 100% agree that its viability isn't invalidated by the loss of Phero. A well played Marowak wins games every time, and its STAB combination and Attack stat are so hard to prepare for without opening gaping holes to much bigger threats. People typically just blanket check it (which is fine), so it's really dangerous once you get it in (which isn't that hard if you have Lightningrod).
Both Greninjas: Also agree here: fuck both Greninjas. Protean is so goddamn good and unpredictable, whereas Ash is so fucking centralizing. Sick of having to dedicate a specific slot to these two fucks. I actually find myself having a bigger problem with Ash than Protean just because Protean is easier to outspeed. The only scarfer that really can tank a hit is Keldeo. Chomp/Landot bopped by Ice Beam; Exca by Water STAB; Gengar loses to D-Pulse. So Offense has a rough af time checking it unless you carry a dedicated counter.
Metagross: Yup. Been complaining about this one for months. Combined with Ninjas, you're forced to put draw from an incredibly small pool of mons to counter it, so the variation in this meta is so abysmal. Literally there are so few creative teams these days because you HAVE to dedicate 2-3 slots just to handle the S's, and there are a very small number of things that handle them.
Spikes: Yeah, this one crept up on me too. They're so effective right now because Skarm kinda sucks now, so everything that spins is constantly having to switch in and take 12%. Spike stacking offense is all over the place, and it's so easy to just click Spikes and then pressure the Defogger/Spinner the next turn. Like mentioned, Spikes lets things that hit super hard perform really well because they're guaranteed a free hit against most hazard removal.
Rotom-W: Was just thinking this to myself the other day. It kinda sucked earlier on in the meta, but suddenly it's feeling super hot. Definitely a mon to watch in the coming weeks, as it doesn't look like anything is going to change that makes it suddenly ass to use.
Final Verdict: We're definitely gonna need a few more suspect tests to iron out the meta, as it's really stale with Metagross and Greninja(s) running amok. I feel like all my teams are forced to use half the members, giving me very little room for creativity. Literally the last time I had fun with a team was when I made Volt-Turn with Phero, but now that's (justifiably) gone (tip one out), so now I'm not allowed to have fun until the meta opens up. But hey, progress is progress.
In policy review, it was brought up that one of the council members mentioned PR as an important factor to consider in suspect testing, which is pretty silly if true. If the purpose of a suspect test if to create a balanced metagame, PR is really pretty irrelevant. Let's be real. Smogon is the only popular singles metagame, and people aren't suddenly going to go in droves and say "well fuck, they banned x, time to quit and play another singles metagame." If we have a suspect test that's something like "Torrent/protean + Greninja" rather than "Greninja," it will clearly be a thinly veiled way to keep a fan favorite pokemon in the tier. I seriously question how genuine the notion is that they should be suspected separately on the basis that the cartridge treats them as different pokemon post-form change.
It would be logically consistent if Ash-Greninja were like the therian forms, but requiring a form change from "Greninja" makes it a poor parallel. I think going through with a sloppy looking "Protean + Greninja" ban is a really terrible idea that sets a precedent that might become relevant with something similar in the future that's more egregious.
I think the point Gary was trying to make was that if Battle Bond is banned, then Protean Greninja would be still allowed. I could be dead wrong, but that's how I saw it.
Its not just a post form change thing that the cartridge treats it differently
Greninjas ability slots look like Torrent/Torrent/Protean.
Ash-Greninja, no matter what form its in, has the ability slots that look like Battle Bond/Battle Bond/Battle Bond.
On the cart itself they are programmed as seperate mons in every way. Same movepools, dex number and model, yes, but Ash Ninja can't even be bred. IDK if that helps change your mind, because Ash-Ninja is a unique situation, but iirc the Therians is exactly how they are being looked at.
Greninjas ability slots look like Torrent/Torrent/Protean.
Ash-Greninja, no matter what form its in, has the ability slots that look like Battle Bond/Battle Bond/Battle Bond.
On the cart itself they are programmed as seperate mons in every way. Same movepools, dex number and model, yes, but Ash Ninja can't even be bred. IDK if that helps change your mind, because Ash-Ninja is a unique situation, but iirc the Therians is exactly how they are being looked at.
Yeah this is the last post on the topic because it's kind of derailing the thread, but yea, Battle Bond Greninja is basically the equivalent of a Therian/Kyurem form but with the exact same stats pre Ash. It's a unique case because usually we've just had alternate forms of the same Pokemon with but with different stats and a different name. Same dex number/species clause. Landorus-Therian is still Landorus, Kyurem-B is still Kyurem, they are just called something different. Battle Bond Greninja and Protean/Torrent Greninja just so happen to both be called Greninja until Battle Bond is activated. So because of this, we treat them as separate forms of the same Pokemon. If we were to lump these two together in a suspect test, that would also mean that any other Pokemon with different forms but the same dex number would be lumped into the same tier. For example, all the Kyurems would be Ubers because Kyurem-W is busted, both Shaymins would be Ubers, or all of the Rotom forms would be OU because Rotom-W is OU.
If the public sees keeping Battle Bond Greninja as some kind of loophole to keep our "favorites" around, then that's just them being ignorant on the policy. We aren't going to cater to the uneducated players for the sake of it. If we banned both Greninjas because of Protean being busted it would completely go against the entire form tiering policy. Now if Battle Bond was just another ability Greninja could have alongside Torrent and Protean, then it would be banned alongside Protean Greninja if it were to get suspected, but that's not the case.
If the public sees keeping Battle Bond Greninja as some kind of loophole to keep our "favorites" around, then that's just them being ignorant on the policy. We aren't going to cater to the uneducated players for the sake of it. If we banned both Greninjas because of Protean being busted it would completely go against the entire form tiering policy. Now if Battle Bond was just another ability Greninja could have alongside Torrent and Protean, then it would be banned alongside Protean Greninja if it were to get suspected, but that's not the case.
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I think ash greninja and greninja should be treated as one mom should a ban be called.
The difference between ash-gren's strange status as a separate mon from greninja compared to other mons with alternate forms is that, when looking at a battle bond greninja and protean greninja in team preview and in battle before they attacked they are indistinguishable. I'm pretty sure all other mons you could compare it to (therians, shaymin, kyurem, alolans) actually, you know, look different.
And this is not an argument for it being too unpredictable for the tier. What I'm saying is that as a player facing a fresh ash or protean greninja, you treat it as one mon with 2 (technically 3) possible abilities and banning protean ninja would be more similar to a complex ban, like banning only one ability on blaziken, versus banning separate forms like shaymin abd shaymin-sky.
Edit: sorry Gary didn't see you there
The difference between ash-gren's strange status as a separate mon from greninja compared to other mons with alternate forms is that, when looking at a battle bond greninja and protean greninja in team preview and in battle before they attacked they are indistinguishable. I'm pretty sure all other mons you could compare it to (therians, shaymin, kyurem, alolans) actually, you know, look different.
And this is not an argument for it being too unpredictable for the tier. What I'm saying is that as a player facing a fresh ash or protean greninja, you treat it as one mon with 2 (technically 3) possible abilities and banning protean ninja would be more similar to a complex ban, like banning only one ability on blaziken, versus banning separate forms like shaymin abd shaymin-sky.
Edit: sorry Gary didn't see you there
Alolawak is severely underrated imo even without pheromosa. First off, medicham just entered the meta and versions lacking zen headbutt are wrecked by wak.
Everything else it does is still there too: Lightening rod Wak also hard counters mons like tapu koko and forces a lot of switches. A common switch in is lando, and versions of wak using WoW can really punish the switch. SD wak is a powerful wall breaker and with a little help (remove the unaware user) wak wreaks havoc against stall.
It's also very nice to have a mon to remove Steels with in a meta semi-starved of good fire mons. flare blitz is obviously ridiculously strong and OHKOs skarm after sturdy is broken, and it also OHKOs scizor and celesteela (though it fears earthquake).
Of course there is also it's invaluable role on TR teams... bottom line this mon isn't going anywhere.
Edit: of course it's weakness to stealth rock and it's lack of recovery are points against it but it fills its role very well in spite of these limitations.
Everything else it does is still there too: Lightening rod Wak also hard counters mons like tapu koko and forces a lot of switches. A common switch in is lando, and versions of wak using WoW can really punish the switch. SD wak is a powerful wall breaker and with a little help (remove the unaware user) wak wreaks havoc against stall.
It's also very nice to have a mon to remove Steels with in a meta semi-starved of good fire mons. flare blitz is obviously ridiculously strong and OHKOs skarm after sturdy is broken, and it also OHKOs scizor and celesteela (though it fears earthquake).
Of course there is also it's invaluable role on TR teams... bottom line this mon isn't going anywhere.
Edit: of course it's weakness to stealth rock and it's lack of recovery are points against it but it fills its role very well in spite of these limitations.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
With the recent Mosa ban - I DO think Awak will drop off a fair bit (I think we can all agree on that?), and as much as the thing can wallbreak and stuff, it's slow speed and allergy to chip is what I think holds it back. Oh and it's forced to run Thick Club to do any remotely decent damage is a determent to it as well.
Still, having that electric immunity is nice, and I do think the release of Mega Sceptile in a couple of weeks or so has kinda thrown it a lifeline (IE, Lightning Rod is no longer a 'must pick'), as Fire/Grass is never not a decent core to have.
As a standalone mon, I'd pick Chandelure any day of the week tbh.
Something to think about is that we have a fast special attacker with a potential fire immunity, vs a Slow physical attacker with an electric immunity... makes you think, doesn't it?
Still, having that electric immunity is nice, and I do think the release of Mega Sceptile in a couple of weeks or so has kinda thrown it a lifeline (IE, Lightning Rod is no longer a 'must pick'), as Fire/Grass is never not a decent core to have.
As a standalone mon, I'd pick Chandelure any day of the week tbh.
Something to think about is that we have a fast special attacker with a potential fire immunity, vs a Slow physical attacker with an electric immunity... makes you think, doesn't it?
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Ema Skye
Work!
Nah, Alolawak is still good. It may drop like one rank in VR but it's not leaving the tier. Medicham is another important thing Alolawak walls, as it beats any set that lacks Zen Headbutt, and may be what forces Cham to run the move (and thus, forgoing Ice Punch, Thunder Punch or Fake Out).
Sceptile will never accomplish what Alolawak's typing lets it - the 4x ice weakness is brutal (it's not a Koko check - HP Ice does 97% minimum without a boosting item), the fighting immunity is really great, as are the Bug, Steel and Fire resistances - Mega Metagross can't touch it without Earthquake or Zen Headbutt, and Scizor is flat out walled.
Chandelure is a different thing, but the Electric immunity is always better than the Fire immunity, as both mons already resist Fire.
Sceptile will never accomplish what Alolawak's typing lets it - the 4x ice weakness is brutal (it's not a Koko check - HP Ice does 97% minimum without a boosting item), the fighting immunity is really great, as are the Bug, Steel and Fire resistances - Mega Metagross can't touch it without Earthquake or Zen Headbutt, and Scizor is flat out walled.
Chandelure is a different thing, but the Electric immunity is always better than the Fire immunity, as both mons already resist Fire.
If nothing else, it's as indispensable on TR as Xurkitree is on ScoliPass. Flare Blitz even 2HKOs Keldeo and 3HKOs Zygarde.
Well I wouldn't call Chandy fast when it hits like 280 max iirc but I still don't think it's fair to compare them both. Both of them have strong Ghost STABs but Marowaks typing+ability give it much more utility and opportunities to get in during a match than Chandelure. Fire immunity is nice but most offensive Fire types have ways to hit it such as epower Tran and hp-ground Volc whereas Wak consistently stops Koko and non zen medi. Chandy also faces competition from Gengar cause that mon is actually fast and hits hard enough to get the kos 2hkos it wants
i've been using TR magearna + A-marowak in my team, and togheter they are fantastic, 50% of the time magearna will sweep alone in mid-late game, in the other 50% a-marowak will kill everything that tries to switch in, he is the best partner for magearna, not only abusing TR but also wrecking celesteela, ferrothorn, mega sczior, skarmory, chansey(actually every stall mon bar pyukumunku), i use them with a spikes gen and the best part is that A-marowak is an eletric shiled even without lighing rod, everytime someones leads with koko against my gren, they always will use u-turn over volt switch, just because they can't risk to give a-marowak a free switch in(something that would happen if lighitng rod), because they knows that the orphan ghost would kill something or set up rocks or burn lando-t, so they just u-turn out letting my gren to set up a layer of spikes(things get even better if they switch to fini trying to predict a-gren). to say the truth the saddest part of using a-marowak is that you loose some kills to set-up rocks, JK a-marowak is far from perfect being really frail and needing a hazzard remover(i am using scarf exca cause i don't want to remove my own spikes/rocks) and if you are running rocks you will get in a paradox of using rocks on lando-t switch, than switching to your lando-t answer while he set up rocks than removing and goes on. i have some replays here:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559145135(doesn't do much, but koko got afraid of lighing rod)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559296759 (against stall)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559172292(while he looks like usless in this match, the rocks allowed magearna to kill smeargle, and hoopa-u to KO the rest of the team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559145913(countering ferro allow magearna to sweep latter(ferro would stall TR out while putting magearna to lando-t range)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559305824(that koko u-turn)
i know this replays didn't show a-marowak trully potential, but most of my replays of him sweeping under TR are from phero meta or suspect, my point of showing this replays is to show his role huge pressure, nothing wants to use an eletric move and i didn't have lighting rod, being able to 2KO the while meta(bar pyukumunku and coil zygarde) while helping his team with rocks and a pseudo eletric shield, is way to good from dropping him.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559145135(doesn't do much, but koko got afraid of lighing rod)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559296759 (against stall)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559172292(while he looks like usless in this match, the rocks allowed magearna to kill smeargle, and hoopa-u to KO the rest of the team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559145913(countering ferro allow magearna to sweep latter(ferro would stall TR out while putting magearna to lando-t range)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559305824(that koko u-turn)
i know this replays didn't show a-marowak trully potential, but most of my replays of him sweeping under TR are from phero meta or suspect, my point of showing this replays is to show his role huge pressure, nothing wants to use an eletric move and i didn't have lighting rod, being able to 2KO the while meta(bar pyukumunku and coil zygarde) while helping his team with rocks and a pseudo eletric shield, is way to good from dropping him.
This shows a major misunderstanding of what it means to check something; Mega Sceptile is a Tapu Koko check because it can come in on TBolt/Volt Switch and then proceed to outrun and OHKO with a +1 Giga Drain/Leaf Storm (not to mention that if it comes in on a faint it OHKOs with LEaf Storm anyway), and furthermore its its presence in the back seriously discourages the use of said moves due to the fear of giving it a free +1 to a 'mon with 145/145 special offenses--which, when combined, means that it fully qualifies as a check. A check doesn't need to be able to come in on everything it can use, it just needs to be able to force it out and/or come in consistently on some of its more notable attacking moves consistently--hence why you can call ScarfChomp or Tapu Koko a check to Greninja despite it not being able to come in on any of its attacks.
I greatly enjoy double water cores like scarf keldeo plus band azu because since gen7 people forgot how powerful is just water spam and pack one water resist (usualy fini, which isn't hard to wear down). Another thing which is amazing is core of scarf keldeo specs gengar. They cover their weakness so well.
And I look forward mega zam. It was almost pointless to run it when any team had pheromosa which basically almost always forces it for free, but since that thing is gone I think it might get more use.
And I look forward mega zam. It was almost pointless to run it when any team had pheromosa which basically almost always forces it for free, but since that thing is gone I think it might get more use.
A Pokemon I'd like to bring to everyone's attention is Nihilego, a rather fantastic Scarfer with the present metagame. What makes Nihilego a great Scarfer is its monstrous bulk; it's one of the few offensive Pokemon that can near effortlessly switch into specially offensive threats such as, Volcarona, Charizard Y, non Magnet / Orb Koko, and Gengar while also being a general revenge killer for sweepers like Gyarados, Charizard X, Salamence, Pinsir, and the aforementioned threats. This is absolutely incredible for some builds considering how hard it possibly is to cover these threats (putting emphasis on Volcarona and Zard Y considering offensive usually has no switch-ins). Hell, it can even switch in on Greninja that lack Extrasensory / Hydro Pump and more than likely KO with Sludge Wave (or guarantee one with Thunder) This is what makes it a better pick over other Scarfers that can pressure these threats such as Stone Edge Keldeo and Terrakion. It can actually pivot into these threats and go from there instead of after a KO. I haven't even touched on Beast Boost being such a great ability for pressuring teams after nabbing a KO.
There was a discussion about Clefable possibly dropping in the rankings, but I feel the meta is still pretty favorable towards it. It beats nearly all relevant hazard turnovers and setters in the tier depending on its coverage. Fire Blast roasts Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and most prominently, Ferrothorn as well as pressuring other dangerous Steel-types like Metagross and Mawile, Ice Beam catches Landorus-T if you're really that weak to it (I don't recommend it though), Knock Off is an annoying move that cripples a wide swath of what comes in on it, and Thunder Wave is still an obnoxious move. It's also one of the most reliable and splashable checks (lol) to Mega Medicham. Without Zen Headbutt or Electric Terrain bolstering it's Thunder Punch it isn't breaking through it. It even checks or even counters things like Scarf Keldeo, Mega Alakazam, Scarf Terrakion, and more things that are huge annoyances for offensive teams which makes it a pretty cool pick for bulky offense squads that need a blanket check to quite a few threats.
The spread I've started to run is 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD with a Bold Nature. This spread allows Clefable to pivot into physical attackers a LOT better (for example, Jolly Medicham has no chance to 2HKO with HJK after Lefties unlike the old spread). I also believe that more physically defensive spreads on Magic Guard sets should be ran considering the specially offensive threats the Calm sets check such as Mega Diancie, Thundurus, Mega Manectric, and Kyurem Black aren't super common or unreleased. The physical bulk is just that much more useful right now and its utility is amazing.
On a side note, Starmie has definitely better now considering there aren't any really good hazard removers in the tier unless you still think Defog Fini is great, Tangrowth is literally the face of bulky offense and Scarfers are more imperative than ever. This metagame is shaping up to be quite interesting as it further develops (if it even can).
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