Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

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I'm by no means an amazing player, as haven't played much this gen, but when I saw marshadow had been released, I wanted to try it out.
This is the set I'm using:

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Sneak

Ive played the choice band set, and I don't think its very good, its way too easy to play around and gives oppenents too much of a chance to cheese their way around marshadow. For example, I switched my greninja into marshadow to sack it, and it went for banded ice punch, it did freeze me, but in the end, it didn't matter since I was able to bring in my marshadow and kill something on his team. Granted, I'm only mid 1300s on the ladder, but this is just my perspective, idk if banded is just new toy syndrome, or if its actually a really good set and I'm not high enough to face a player utilizing it correctly.

My only experience with the seven star shit thing or whatever was it doing 99% to my sg magearna and they dying, it caught me off guard and I honestly expected to just drop from it, but I guess magearna is just that bulky. Not sure if a low role, and if so, I may start running a bit of bulk to always take that hit, because magearna can already stomach a lo cc.

Ive been using shadow sneak protean greninja in one of my teams. Its purpose is for when facing marshadow, use shadow sneak to turn yourself into a ghost to be immune to cc. If you know their banded, stay in and fire off the appropriate coverage move to nail a switchin, if lo, after sneaking, switch out to a bulkier mon that can handle marshadow since they will be pressed to go for sneak of their own to avoid taking two from greninja plus life orb.

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 133-156 (41.4 - 48.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not bad damage considering this thing has keldeo bulk, and sneak isn't too bad atm imo considering the new toy syndrome. Like I said, I'm not a tournament player or even on the higher ladder so take this with a grain of salt.
 
I'm glad the Scarf set got mentioned. That set is a literal troll with Spectral that beats pretty much every set up sweeper, and it revenges basically everything.

Swagger set is dumb as hell though. You literally just hax through everything. I legit wonder though if we could get away with a Swagger ban again.

Also Band Marsh is a cool set. Basically like Band Terrakion from BW but a /lot/ faster and a more spammable second STAB.

Trying to picture this with Mega Lopunny next week (the new stones are usually out on the second week of the month). If Marshadow sticks around that long, the two are going to be insane together.
 
Swagger sounds really RNGy and with the confuse nerf you could be doing yourself a huge disservice. Even utility Scizor at + 2 bullet punch or uturn is not something to laugh at or that physical def tangrowth can still hurt at + 2 earthquake, knock off, rock slide. Spectral Thief won't ohko and it's a contact move and physical def tangrowth almost always runs rocky helmet. Toxapex could still end scald burning u and if not they usually run haze and are max def or near max def.
 
It's too bad marshadow is so overpowered; I really like its design. Spectral thief is really what breaks it. Without spectral thief it would be "just" a top-tier threat due to its great stab combo, movepool, amazing speed and decent attack, but with its signature move it just crushes many would-be checks with its choice scarf set. Checking basically every setup sweeper at once just isn't healthy for the meta, and I don't see much disagreement with that sentiment.

Yeah, this thing isn't staying long. Too bad, he's cute :(
 
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Marswagger (Marshadow) @ Spooky Plate / Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Swagger

this set is broken!! The fact that it can even break fatter mons thanks to Swagger is amazing for it as well, the only true counter to this set that I can think of is Unaware Clef, but even then:

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 224-264 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So Clef isn´t a switch in either. Sleep Powder Tang is also a decent option if it doesn´t get hit by Swagger, but if the Marshadow player is HP Ice or already has a sleep fodder that´s pretty bad for Tangrowth. It can be revenge killed, but the thing is that 60 BP Shadow Sneak hurts a lot, enabling only Scarf Lele to reliable RK it:

252 Atk Spooky Plate Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Spooky Plate Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Spooky Plate Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 120-142 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Spooky Plate Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Sure, it doesn´t OHKO anything with it, but these Pokémon must be really careful not to get worn down, otherwise Shadow Sneak just seals the deal. There´s obviously counterplay, but Marshadow needs a suspect at least (not a ban tho, its plain stupid to jump into conclusions atm, with less than a day of testing)
 
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Selihido said:
It's too bad marshadow is so overpowered; I really like its design. Spectral thief is really what breaks it. Without spectral thief it would be "just" a top-tier threat due to its great stab combo, movepool, amazing speed and decent attack, but with its signature move it just crushes many would-be checks with its choice scarf set. Checking basically every setup sweeper at once just isn't healthy for the meta, and I don't see much disagreement with that sentiment.

Yeah, this thing isn't staying long. Too bad, he's cute :(
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Well if the problem its a move rather than a mon then just ban the move, or the Z-Move since its a exclusive thing from it. Anyway been using it and its a very good mon, I believe the best sets are Orb and Spook/Marshadium, Bulk Up and Swagger I found very situational and or kinda match up reliant, scarf and band are niches but can work because his powerful stabs and the nice effect given by ST which make set up sweepers not named M-Pinsir fodder for a reverse sweep by the little ghostpuncher. I won't complain if its stays but if it goes I won't complain either.
 
Marshadow is disgusting. I think the mixed LO and Bulk Up Marshadium Z sets are going to be the staples for sure. 7 Star Strike hits ridiculously hard especially at +1, ohkoing things like toxapex after hazards. Both sets are damn near unwallable and technician boosted SS is always a threat to sweep late game. For anybody thinking of running a Swagger set, try this:

Marshadow @ Leftovers
Jolly
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Spectral Thief
-Force Palm
-Substitute
-Swagger

Force Palm's 30% para chance on top of Sub+Swagger is gonna be frustrating to deal with. Enjoy your parafusion boost stealing shenanigans folks. Grassy Terrain support on this set would be nice.

I can see the scarf set doing well too, with Rock Tomb and HP Ice as good coverage moves. A Banded pursuit set might also get some niche play.
 
Ema Skye said:
The issue would likely be with Swagger, not Marshadow, with this set. It'd be similar to SwagPlay and Swagger would get banned.
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I don't think that's an accurate comparison. Last gen Swagger was banned because the move it self was broken and you could build entire teams around it, this gen however, with the nerf of Confusion this is not the case anymore, and the move hasn't been a problem until now that Marshadow was released.
 
1234hjkl said:
Well if the problem its a move rather than a mon then just ban the move, or the Z-Move since its a exclusive thing from it. Anyway been using it and its a very good mon, I believe the best sets are Orb and Spook/Marshadium, Bulk Up and Swagger I found very situational and or kinda match up reliant, scarf and band are niches but can work because his powerful stabs and the nice effect given by ST which make set up sweepers not named M-Pinsir fodder for a reverse sweep by the little ghostpuncher. I won't complain if its stays but if it goes I won't complain either.
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the z-move has no reason to be banned on its own, since it's simply as incredible as the move its attached to, but that being said i could maybe see a banning of spectral thief. it might sound as dumb as banning blaziken's speed boost at first, but spectral thief is a move that would make a majority of the pokemon in the game incredibly threatening if they had it, because a 90 bp physical ghost attack that both goes through subs and takes stat boosts will always be an incredibly overbearing move that can dismantle entire set archetypes on its own. to that end, i could see an argument towards the move being the core problem, and not the pokemon.

that in mind, though, i'm not really attached to marshadow, since it'd still be a reliable spinblocker for webs teams while still having a 90bp shadow STAB in a technician-boosted shadow punch, it might be broken without spectral thief anyways so who knows.
 
I think it's possible that people are reacting too quickly to Marshadow. People always overhype new releases. There were many, many calls for a mega Mawile quick ban when it was released. It was to a much lesser extent with mega Medicham. Hell, people did the same song and dance with pheromosa, and it wasn't ban-worthy until stuff like normalium z QD and such came into vogue, not to mention Aegi's ban.

On the other hand, Spectral Thief is ridiculous, not to mention technician shadow sneak.
 
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Toshiro46 said:
I think it's possible that people are reacting too quickly to Marshadow. People always overhype new releases. There were many, many calls for a mega Mawile quick ban when it was released. It was to a much lesser extent with mega Medicham. Hell, people did the same song and dance with pheromosa, and it wasn't ban-worthy until stuff like normalium z QD and such came into vogue, not to mention Aegi's ban.

On the other hand, Spectral Thief is ridiculous, not to mention technician shadow sneak.
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Well actually I didn't saw any mention tô ban mawile/medicham in the threads, pheromosa actually got banned with almost 100% of votes, and aegi got quick banned, I don't see how a fast mon with perfect coverage on it's stabs, extremly overpower signature move and some tricks like technician hp ice/shadow sneak, it's overated.
 
Toshiro46 said:
I think it's possible that people are reacting too quickly to Marshadow. People always overhype new releases. There were many, many calls for a mega Mawile quick ban when it was released. It was to a much lesser extent with mega Medicham. Hell, people did the same song and dance with pheromosa, and it wasn't ban-worthy until stuff like normalium z QD and such came into vogue, not to mention Aegi's ban.

On the other hand, Spectral Thief is ridiculous, not to mention technician shadow sneak.
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I don't think it's possible to overhype 125/125 offenses with physical ghost/fighting stabs and technician. It'll be laughable if the counsel doesn't quickban it.
 
I think that Clefable and Toxapex are about to see a spike in usage, or at least Toxapex will. They are the only things that can take any hits from Marshadow defensively. However, Scarf Lele (which might see a rise but idk) still takes Marshadow out unless you run Scarf yourself, which isn't as good as Life Orb or SwaggerGhostium. Still, it has little counterplay like MegaMeta, so those few that can counter Marshadow will likely see a surge in usage until either a suspect or ban rolls around.
 
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Ema Skye said:
Spectral Thief will never get banned lol. We went through this with Aegislash and the idea that we could ban King's Shield.

We don't ban parts of a Pokemon until it's OU suitable.
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the difference being that king's shield isn't actually the core problem with aegislash, merely a pretty bad, roundabout way of nerfing it without addressing the core issue. as mentioned, this can likely change and marshadow can be busted otherwise, but right now, in the same way that scolipede's core problem pre-BP ban was baton pass letting it hand off speed boosts to potent pokemon, marshadow's core problem begins and ends with spectral thief, and how spectral thief lets it spam a powerful stat-stealing attack at will. at minimum, it's far more likely for that to be argued than something like swagger, especially when swagger is an otherwise-unused move, only utilized on one of its many incredibly powerful sets.
 
I'm gonna lock this for now. Clearly we can't discuss Marshadow without constantly bringing it up for suspect, and despite your opinions on it, it's still way too early to talk about that atm. Besides, stuff like that is not meant to be discussed in here. I needed to make a new metagame thread anyway, so w/e. I'll post another one when it seems fit, so maybe a few days from now when the meta settles a bit more so people aren't just theorymoning out the ass.

Lady Alex said:
I don't think it's possible to overhype 125/125 offenses with physical ghost/fighting stabs and technician. It'll be laughable if the counsel doesn't quickban it.
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What else do you actually post in this forum aside from always finding a way to bash the council or OU tiering? Like seriously man, just cut them some slack.
 
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