Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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My thoughts on the current things people would like to ban.

Misdreavus: This Pokemon is insane. It can set up and sweep, it can be a bulky sweeper, it can use Specs/Scarf to good effect, it can cripple physical mons, it has huge coverage, it can beat most of its checks, it has huge base stats. This Pokemon is a god. However, I'm unsure if its ban worthy. Yes, it can do all these thing, but yet it still has glaring weaknesses in being SUPER Knock-off weak, and the two mons that most often carry powerful knock offs are very, very common. Also, we have to be careful because once Misdreavus is removed, Zigzagoon and other assorted mons become GODS.

Fletchling: Fletchling is such a funny mon, it had hardly any usage prior to the Murkrow and Meditite ban. Now however, its pretty darn amazing. It has ridiculously powerful priority in the form of acrobatics. If Flying Gem comes out with ORAS, RIP Fletchling, because its going to get quickbanned. It also has priority recovery in the form of roost. It also has a couple different cool ways to get around its checks in the form of Overheat and Natural Gift. I think this pokemon is checkable, but in combination with Diglett, its able to quickly remove most of its counters. Thus, I say Fletchling chirps "PLEASE BAN ME"

Knock Off: Little Cup is a game of items. In no other tier is your item SO crucial to your pokemon. Eviolite, Berry Juice, Life Orb, Scarf... almost no Pokemon in Little Cup is alright with losing its item, which makes the responsibility of taking Knock Off hits fall to Sticky Hold pokemon such as Trubbish and Shellos. However, if Knock Off was banned, I think we'd quickly regret it, as taking care of Pokemon such as Chinchou and Porygon becomes REALLY difficult, and if Misdreavus isn't banned when Knock Off is banned... well, its going to get banned soon afterwards. I don't think Knock Off should be banned, not yet.

Unbanning Yanma: For the love of God, PLEASE NOT NOW. Yes, I'd be interested to see what Yanma would make this tier look like, but not now. The Grand Slam tournament is coming up, and we can't risk screwing up the tier in this tournament. So please, just hold off. There's a reason we banned this Pokemon.

Sturdy + Berry Juice: I hate Dwebble/Tirtouga/etc. so much... But Knock Off really solves a lot of problems. Honestly, I'd rather see this banned than Misdreavus, but I really don't have decent justification for it, not yet. Its just a personal feeling.
 
Caledrith said:
My thoughts on the current things people would like to ban.

Misdreavus: This Pokemon is insane. It can set up and sweep, it can be a bulky sweeper, it can use Specs/Scarf to good effect, it can cripple physical mons, it has huge coverage, it can beat most of its checks, it has huge base stats. This Pokemon is a god. However, I'm unsure if its ban worthy. Yes, it can do all these thing, but yet it still has glaring weaknesses in being SUPER Knock-off weak, and the two mons that most often carry powerful knock offs are very, very common. Also, we have to be careful because once Misdreavus is removed, Zigzagoon and other assorted mons become GODS.

Knock Off: Little Cup is a game of items. In no other tier is your item SO crucial to your pokemon. Eviolite, Berry Juice, Life Orb, Scarf... almost no Pokemon in Little Cup is alright with losing its item, which makes the responsibility of taking Knock Off hits fall to Sticky Hold pokemon such as Trubbish and Shellos. However, if Knock Off was banned, I think we'd quickly regret it, as taking care of Pokemon such as Chinchou and Porygon becomes REALLY difficult, and if Misdreavus isn't banned when Knock Off is banned... well, its going to get banned soon afterwards. I don't think Knock Off should be banned, not yet.

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I am honestly really tired of seeing this
It has been stated countless times that this is a terrible anti-ban argument. If something is broken/unhealthy for the metagame, we remove it regardless of how many other Pokémon become broken after its removal.
Please try to refrain from adding any "but this will get really strong/broken after it's removal"
If the thing becomes broken, we'll just ban it as well
Just a minor nitpick, continue
 
Following the apparent selection of the Little Cup Suspects, I would like to inquire as a way to better inform myself, and perhaps others who hold this very same question:

In the eyes of the Little Cup community, what are the main concerns or reasons that make Fletchling so threatening? Is it perhaps the combination of Priority Healing & Damage? Or is it perhaps it's surprising capabilities to pack either Overheat or Pivot with U-Turn? Or is Swords Dance the reason this little bird looms as a shadow over our Metagame?
 
JudgeMasterCid said:
Following the apparent selection of the Little Cup Suspects, I would like to inquire as a way to better inform myself, and perhaps others who hold this very same question:

In the eyes of the Little Cup community, what are the main concerns or reasons that make Fletchling so threatening? Is it perhaps the combination of Priority Healing & Damage? Or is it perhaps it's surprising capabilities to pack either Overheat or Pivot with U-Turn? Or is Swords Dance the reason this little bird looms as a shadow over our Metagame?
Click to expand...

It's because Fletchling not only has access to one of the strongest priority attacks in all of LC, but the fact that it can change its movepool to get around its counters.

As someone who used Fletchling to get reqs and peaked #13 with it, there were a few times where someone's team was extremely well-prepared for Fletchling to the point where I really couldn't do anything. However, I found that with hazard support, it didn't really take me all that long to weaken Pokemon such as Chinchou to the point where I was able to sweep with Flechling.

Oddly enough, however, I never actually found Fletchling to be all that threatening. My only way of dealing with it was with Tirtouga, too; luckily, no one decided to run HP Grass on their Fletchling while I was laddering. However, had someone decided to do so, I'm pretty sure I would have lost the game quite quickly, lol.
 
I am temporarily closing this thread. I want all discussion to occur in the suspect discussion thread. Even if you did not qualify for reqs, please discuss the suspects, Misdreavus and Fletchling. However, council consideration will only be given to those who did qualify.

Thank you for the healthy discussion and thank you to Rowan for giving life back to this thread.
 
Prepare to be swept by Belly Drum + Extremespeed

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Bunnelby will certainly rise in usage, expect a possible rise in sticky web teams as a result of it, bunnelby is such a good abuser and webs teams are often weak to missy because levitate ignores webs. Even without webs, bunnelby becomes a very viable scarfer with u-turn / return / earthquake / filler

Choice scarf Pawnaird may drop in usage for the bulkier stealth rock set and life orb set since it no longer has to revenge missy, however keep in mind the scarf set is still an excellent revenge killer, having good coverage and reaching a nice 16 spe with Jolly. Pawnaird in General will still be useful.

And of course gastly, pumpkaboo, and others will rise in usage which I will talk about when I have time.

Inb4 ~free missy~ hype
 
Rip stunky's niche ;;
(The following is pure theorymonning) zigzagoon probably became an even more dangerous sweeper now: with missy gone it no longer has his biggest check to stop him, and now just needs gothi to trap stuff llike ferro and a memento user to succeed, but lets see how it goes o_o
Also gastly might replace missy as a strong ghost type replacement; although as we all know it will never be as good as missy because of his awful bulk @_@(but it does beats spritzee so he has that going for him,,)
Looking forward to play this meta ~n_n~
 
Normalspam is going to be shit, despite what some people are hyping. A meta centralized around Fletch and where Fighting is one of the most common types is not one for Normalspam rofl

It'll be same old LC with slight meta shifts (Pawn is commonly Evio/LO, Gastly rises in usage) because Fletch is still around. Birdspam will reign supreme, Fighting types will be there to support Fletch and co, and I'm just going to be like


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Rip Misdreavus and rip apt-get:

b4f81dca79.png



This is Theorymon: With Misdreavus gone some stuff will see a raise in usage, people will start using other ghosts to spin block (mainly Gastly and Honedge and maybe Frillish) and Normal-types will also raise as Bunnelby will be more threatening and Belly Drum Zigzagoon will be harder to deal with for people who are new to LC.

I'll say more after I play a little on the ladder.
 
This meta will be sure more offensive since porygon will lose usage, offensive mons like bunnelby will be used more. Sticky web usage (maybe adding a gravity user just for archen and gastly) will increase a lot and maybe defog too since spinblockers will be more. I don't think that scarf pawn will lose usage since abra and gastly too (?) can be easily killed thanks to a scarf set. Btw pawn can be used life orb (maybe a better solution) or bulky eviolite rock setter. If its usage will drop, this is gonna be Spritzee's meta (walls fletch, can set-up CMs) and also Koffing and honedge will certainly be more used. The unbanned smogon burd jr. will be in every team (even if I prefer drifloon) and chinchou (its most-used counter) too. I hope that the meta will be balanced even after the ban, but, in my opinion, Missy was centralizing in a positive way. Now the teambuilding will be more limited: check for fighting types, check for fletch, etc. Missy was in every team, yeah, but it allowed a better choice for the other five members.


If fletch was banned too, MONO FIGHTING FTW!!!
 
Yagura said:
Rip Misdreavus and rip apt-get:

b4f81dca79.png



This is Theorymon: With Misdreavus gone some stuff will see a raise in usage, people will start using other ghosts to spin block (mainly Gastly and Honedge and maybe Frillish) and Normal-types will also raise as Bunnelby will be more threatening and Belly Drum Zigzagoon will be harder to deal with for people who are new to LC.

I'll say more after I play a little on the ladder.
Click to expand...

Gastly won't be used to spin block because it's super weak to drilburs eq but it will still rise as the premier offensive ghost and pumpkaboo will become a decent spin blocker able to resist drilburs eq and hit is super effectively with stab

Edit: and honedge would find it har spin blocking on drilbur but yeah, it will rise in usage great Fletchling check
 
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Just some quick thoughts on how things might turn out -

I actually doubt Zigzagoon is going to receive an enormous jump in viability. With Misdreavus no longer overshadowing it, I think it's high time we realize Gastly is actually really good, and Gastly actually checks Zigzagoon better than Misdreavus did -
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 132 HP / 28 SpD Zigzagoon: 14-17 (63.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 132 HP / 28 SpD Zigzagoon: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Basically, Sludge Bomb is great.

On the other hand, Gastly will hardly be enough to stop Bunnelby.
228 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 24-30 (126.3 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
228 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 18-22 (94.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
I don't see Bunnelby as skyrocketing to god tier just yet, though; it's still unable to come in on anything at all, and is vulnerable to powerful priority.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Bunnelby: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Bunnelby: 19-23 (95 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Bunnelby: 14-20 (70 - 100%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not only that, but if a Life Orb or Choice Band set is run, Bunnelby is left outsped by a great deal of defensive Pokemon, and if it runs a Choice Scarf set, key Eviolite Pokemon are able to avoid the OHKO from its attacks.
With that being said, Bunnelby is undoubtedly going to be great. I don't think spamming normal types will really work out because Fighting-types are still running rampant, but as a stand-alone Pokemon, I think Bunnelby is going to really stand out.

Two Ghost-types that I think will now have the opportunity to shine are Gastly and Pumpkaboo. Even with Misdreavus around, Gastly maintained a solid niche due to the sheer power of its Sludge Bomb, and it is now undoubtedly the premier offensive Ghost-type. Other than hitting ridiculously hard with its STAB attacks, it also has access to all the coverage moves it needs. In addition, its Speed tier is now excellent without the most popular Pokemon residing a point above it. Pumpkaboo will arguably become the best Spinblocker because it is able to wall standard Drilbur almost entirely, crippling it with a burn or hitting it hard with a STAB Grass-type attack. Unlike Phantump, Pumpkaboo's decent base defenses will allow it to function as a wall against other Pokemon as well, while being able to take at least one of most Knock Offs.

I can see stall being more effective with Misdreavus gone. Offensive teams suffered against Misdreavus, but so did stall teams; the Nasty Plot set was able to completely crush most walls, and stall teams couldn't simply resort to multiple offensive checks; I often felt compelled to run Porygon on every single stall team, and of course, even that sometimes wasn't enough. Moreover, stall teams had difficulty actually using Misdreavus effectively themselves due to Misdreavus's lack of recovery. With Misdreavus gone, stall teams now probably have to deal with more Gastly, but as potent of a wall-breaker Gastly is, this will still probably be easier because Gastly can't take advantage of free turns to set up Nasty Plots. Stall teams, being as bulky as they are, will arguably also be able to better handle Sun teams than straight-up offense by simply stalling out the turns.

I briefly touched on this already, but I would like to mention again how important Misdreavus's ban will probably be for speed tiers. 18 Speed Pokemon always suffered from being revenge-killed by a Pokemon as popular as Misdreavus, but now that they really only have Abra (which would beat most of them even if Modest) and a bunch of Pokemon nobody really cares about to contend with, things like Doduo, Minccino, and Gastly will be able to function less as mere wall-breakers and actually try to sweep. 19 Speed will become even more coveted; Abra, Taillow, Magby and Poliwag all had to risk a speed tie against Misdreavus if they were to attempt a sweep, but now they find themselves easily outspeeding the rest of the metagame (except diglett/elekid/voltorb lol). This might be stretching it, but I think this may be Staryu's chance to once again find a veritable niche, because there is one less Pokemon that speed ties it now, and Misdreavus is no longer there to spinblock it.

A metagame shift that has been occurring for some time now that doesn't have much to do with Misdreavus's ban is the rise of Sun teams. Even with Fletchling's presence, it's really not that tough to stick an Archen or Porygon on there and call it a day, allowing the Sun abusers to really shine. As such, I can see Pokemon that are able to beat common Sun abusers rising up. Eviolite Munchlax is one of something like two safe switch-ins to Gastly and Abra, but its Thick Fat ability also allows it to pose as a severe nuisance to Vulpix, while still handling Bellsprout through its massive special bulk. Specially Defensive Vullaby will also probably be an interesting choice, being able to deal with Gastly, Abra, Sleep Powder-abusing Chlorophyll abusers, and non-Specs Vulpix, while packing great support moves in Knock Off and Defog.

Birdspam was and will continue to be great; I don't think anybody is arguing that Fletchling is a major force in the metagame. With that being said, I think people are starting to adapt to it, allowing other playstyles to start shining, since people are realizing just how simple it is to create a team that isn't totally crushed by a 50 atk bird. I still stand by my word when I say other archetypes, such as Voltturn and Stall, are just as potent as birdspam. However, Fletchling will probably have even more popular threats to revenge-kill in Gastly and Bunnelby, both of who are clearly positively impacted by Misdreavus leaving the tier, and do not enjoy such a powerful Acrobatics to the face. Birdspam is also made better slightly by the riddance of a powerful 19 Speed tier Pokemon, since now fellow birds Doduo and Taillow can boast to outspeed a larger percentage of the metagame.

One thing that I would like to note about Misdreavus's ban is that I don't see anything becoming less viable because of it; although Porygon has lost part of its niche, I don't think anybody will deny that it is still an excellent Pokemon that is fully deserving of A rank. In fact, now that it no longer is essentially forced to run Shadow Ball, its moveslot can be freed up for something cool, like Ice Beam for Archen/Fletchling/Drilbur or Psychic for Croagunk/Mienfoo/Timburr, so I can see it becoming more difficult to switch into.
 
THE NEW META
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HAS ARRIVED
#bunnelbytho
#dembunnyearsdoe
#morelikebunnelbeatdown
#Ripheliolisk
#imeandang

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS THOUGH

tumblr_n1dvxj1MJY1rjenv2o1_500.gif
I'm excited for the new meta shifts! I like the predicted rise in gastly and bunny, although Bunny still doesn't really have much offensive synergy with a lot and it's only resistance is ghost but we'll see. There's no denying it's a threat because it kinda 2HKOs the meta, and it has Meditite-ish 4MSS, wanting to run Quick Attack, Frustration, EQ, Thief, Stone Edge/Wild Charge, and U-turn. The power creep brought on by new powerful threats and the omnipotence of knock off still lives despite what people are saying! I'd love to see more non-scarf pawniard, (altho it still will exist b/c gastly outspeeds,,,) specifically Twave Pawn, SR Pawn, and SD Pawn.

Predicted rises in usage post-ban:
  • Gastly
  • Bunnelby
  • Pumpkaboo
  • Frillish
  • Honedge
  • Fighters
  • Abra b/c the 19 speed tier is slowly getting freed !_!
Predicted falls in usage/changes in standard set post-ban:
  • Pawniard
  • Stunky
  • Porygon
  • Lickitung (normal-type Gastly)
  • User: Apt-Get
This meta needed a breath of fresh air, and this missy banning not only makes LC less luck-reliant (FINALLY I DONT HAVE TO HAVE AND LOSE 19 SPEED SPEED TIES IN EVERY MATCH YES THANK YOU BASED COUNCIL) but is also giving some-things just what they needed to shine a bit. I feel like as the suspects get more and more controversial, it means we're (possibly) coming closer to a more balanced meta as things will get more viability (Ex: Stall has one less massive threat to worry about, but also has rising stallbreakers in the making like bunnelby to balance out this lack of missy)

Also people gastly is a check not a counter b/c stone edge, wild charge, and thief all just OHKO any set but like bulky BJ or evio lol

Cheers to a new metagame mates!
 

(sorry, I had to)

But yeah, I doubt we will see any big change in the metagame without Missy. Gastly and Pumpkaboo will be more popular, and Choice Scarf Pawniard will be less common. I don't see how Zigzagoon and Bunnelby suddenly should be extremely good either. Will probably post more thoughts tomorrow when I'm a bit less sleepy, lol.
 
I used Pumpkaboo-XL back on my Trick Room team; it is an utter tank. Bullet Seed ruins Drilbur, Will-O-Wisp cripples every damn thing, and it can absolutely tank Knock Off.

I'm also thinking of a rise in Sticky Web usage, which will likely lead to Trick Room getting love.
 
The Avalanches: Pumpkaboo large has the same stats as Super, with an additional point in speed.

Anyway, I've been running Small on a web team, which, although less bulky, still does what it needs to do (spinblocks like a pro, spreads burns, etc.) In fact, I like Small more because of its higher Speed, allowing it to DBond more threats when Web isn't up.
 
FletchDig is going to become even more dangerous than before, now with one of its more prominent checks gone. I think the core itself was one of the problems with the meta. Think about it, what exactly was it that pissed you off about Fletchling? While you can certainly blame its easily abusable features, the real problem came with Diglett. Fletchling on its own is perfectly manageable, with it having numerous checks, most of them actually viable, but then they get beat out by Diglett. Arena Trap/Shadow Tag are stupid abilities and they shouldn't exist. I'm not as mad about Shadow Tag in LC because Gothita and Wynaut have to be very selective about what they trap. What Gothita can beat is purely based on the item it's holding, and Wynaut is sadly very slow and is torn apart by VoltTurning, Knock Off, and Pokemon that don't run 4 attacks. Diglett, however, has the Speed and just enough power to appropriately take care of most of Fletchling's checks.

Arena Trap is dumb, guys.
 
I'm not really sure why people are hyping Bunnelby. Its standard set has a major flaw in locked normal attacks, while unconventional sets like Eviolite have Payback anyways to beat Misdreavus. In any case, it still has to put up with Gastly, Tirt, Omanyte, magnemite, and so much more. same deal with Ziggy.


I think that people will find the game to be very similar to before.if anything changes it will be because they started usin shit that was already good.
 
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