Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

A Vullaby Spread Creation Guide


Vullaby is very versatile and so there is a large variety of different spreads you can run on it. I figured it would be helpful to create a list of all the most noteworthy benchmarks to help people create spreads that are best for their teams. Note that these benchmarks are for physical/mixed Berry Juice sets.

HP Benchmarks:
24 HP:
- consume Berry Juice after switching into rocks twice (this only applies to exactly 24 HP)​
- takes 1 extra HP damage from rocks​

25 HP:
- survive an uninvested Mienfoo High Jump Kick after rocks​
- survive a Mudbray Rock Slide after rocks​
- survive a Staryu Ice Beam or Thunderbolt after rocks​
combined with 15 Def:
- survive a Timburr Ice Punch after rocks​
- survive a max attack Ponyta Wild Charge after rocks​
- survive a Doduo Brave Bird after rocks​
combined with 15 SpDef:
- survive a Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam​
- survive a Focus Sash Abra Dazzling Gleam after rocks​
combined with 16 SpDef:
- survive a Life Orb Gastly Thunderbolt​
- survive a Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb after rocks​
Attack Benchmarks:
13 Attack:
- generally better rolls against other Vullaby​
- reliably OHKO knocked off 15 Def fighters (rather than 75% of the time)​

14 Attack:
- generally better rolls against just about everything (Mareanie, Foongus, Mudbray, fighters and more)​
- 2HKO knocked Spritzee after rocks​
- OHKO Eviolite Snivy​
15 Attack:
- generally better rolls against just about everything hit neutrally​
- 2HKO knocked Spritzee​

16 Attack:
- OHKO 14 Def fighters​
- OHKO Foongus after rocks​
Defense Benchmarks:
15 Def:
- survive an uninvested Mienfoo High Jump Kick after rocks​
- survive a max attack Reckless Mienfoo High Jump Kick​
- take generally less damage from many physical attacks​
combined with 25 HP:
- survive a Timburr Ice Punch after rocks​
- survive a max attack Ponyta Wild Charge after rocks​
- survive a Doduo Brave Bird after rocks​

running more Defense does change some minor calcs but investing in other stats is almost always going to be a better option

Special Attack Benchmarks:
10 Special Attack:
- let Knock Off into HP Fighting KO Pawniard​
- let HP Grass OHKO non-Eviolite Onix after rocks​
Special Defense Benchmarks:
15 Special Defense:
combined with 25 HP:
- survive a Focus Sash Abra Dazzling gleam after rocks​
- survive a Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam​

16 Special Defense:
combined with 25 HP:
- survive a Life Orb Gastly Thunderbolt​
- survive a Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb after rocks​
Speed Benchmarks:
14 Speed:
- outspeed the vast majority of slow Mienfoo​
- outspeed Mudbray​
- outspeed Scarf Doduo and Scarf Gastly after a Weak Armor boost​
15 Speed:
- more likely to outspeed Vullaby and Pawniard​
- outspeed +1 Ponyta after a Weak Armor boost​
- outspeed Corphish​
16 Speed:
- significantly more likely to outspeed Vullaby and Pawniard​
- reliably outspeed Berry Juice Magnemite​
 
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dcae

Tournament Banned
is a Tiering Contributor
to: the lc council
from: a concerned lc player

let's ban vull. 85% usage, no reliable counters, too many viable sets (a couple ones are broken), and an ugly mon. if we don't do it now we're gonna be looking back at sm like it's bw w that dumb broke shit where 1 mon has nearly 100% usage.

rn its basically not worth building a team without vull. it's an incredible pivot, superb typing, elite utility, elite bulk, very good offensively, and i really shouldn't need to go into more detail bc if you play lc you should know all this shit. it can circumvent every answer it has w slight movepool changes that do not compromise its overall performance at all. zfly esp is a bitch bc now even spritz and 15 def fighters aren't reliable answers.

if you think a mon that can do all this shit and has nearly 90% usage shouldnt be banned, well then precedent (if you really care abt precedent) w gligar (in early xy) says otherwise. gligar also was elite utility, typing, etc w a broken offensive set, and guess what... it got banned.

i've heard that some think time is an issue. i am an avid believer in the idea that time should never be a reason to avoid doing the right thing. i refuse to believe the right thing is to allow this meta to end with a legal mon that has more usage than mienfoo and timburr combined.

thank you for your time and i hope you do the right thing
 
As many LCers have probably noticed, Vullaby has grown bigger wings and reached new heights in LC, with it reaching 85% usage in LCPL8 and molding the meta wih its big beefy talons. Vullaby has unmatched versatility with its variety of sets, including a fast offensive berry juice set, a mixed Z flyinium set, a specially defensive defog set, a scarf set, and special nasty plot sets. The set that has pushed Vullaby over the edge is the drastic increase in mixed Z flyinium, which typically runs brave bird, knock off, hidden power grass, and rock smash. With these four moves, Vullaby has perfect coverage to hit everything in the meta for at least neutral damage, while also being able to hit all of the common flying resists super effectively.

Onix, Pawniard, and Tirtouga all used to be able to comfortably switch in vs Vullaby a couple times throughout the match with relative certainty. Now with the rise of the new mixed Vullaby set, both Onix and Pawniard are able to be 2-shot by knock off into the appropriate coverage move from Vullaby. Another adaptation to Vullaby that worked prior to the popularization of z flyinium Vullaby was the use of 15 defense Mienfoo and Timburr, which could both live a brave bird from full HP. Again, these adaptations no longer work, as z-brave bird now ohkos these fighting types very cleanly.

Now I assume I don't really need to convince most of the people reading this post that Vullaby is really good, since anyone who plays LC or watches LC should realize this, seeing Vullaby at the top of the usage charts and at the top of the viability rankings thread. At the end of the day, the most important people to convince of Vullaby's banworthiness is the LC tier council, as those are the individuals who have the power to initiate the process to get Vullaby banned. If the council doesn't believe Vullaby is banworthy, then Vullaby can never be banned, regardless of what the voices of the LC masses believe.

I understand timing is a concern, as a Vullaby ban would shake up the meta the way losing any S rank/85% usage Pokemon would. There are a couple of reasons why I don't agree with this argument. Even though the end of the 7th generation is just 4 months away, we are at the time of the year where peak innovation takes place, in both the Snake Draft and in later rounds of LC Open/Grand Slam playoffs, which should help the metagame stabilize much more quickly. While there are concerns on altering the meta too drastically so close to the end of a generation, there have been multiple bans in LC old gens, several years after they were the current generation, and a lot of people are unhappy with BW especially. If Vullaby is broken now, I think we should make an effort to deal with it instead of leaving SM in a very centralized state.
 
can we stop with the bw comparisons. vullaby isn’t near the level of missy and it’s usage is mostly due to the support it can provide a team; missy is 100% usage literally because it’s powerful af and nothing beats it no matter what set it’s running. there’s big differences there. not to mention we couldn’t get missy banned partially because of the same exact reasons fine user dcae is now disagreeing with in terms of vulla: fear of the resulting meta. so, don’t tell me it’s a bad argument. normally i would agree but like I’ve said before vullaby is sm lc. this is new grounds for lc, never have we had a mon so integral to the meta for its entirety only for its ban to be called upon at the very end.
 
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dcae

Tournament Banned
is a Tiering Contributor
if we don't do it now we're gonna be looking back at sm like it's bw w that dumb broke shit where 1 mon has nearly 100% usage.
please clarify how i said vull is like missy here? im comparing the generation of sm to the generation of bw. in bw we had broken shit that wasn't suspected at the time bc the tier leaders thought there wasn't enough time. the broken mons were then suspected after the gen ended. that is exactly the outcome i would like to avoid with vull.

furthermore,

this is new grounds for lc, never have we had a mon so integral to the meta for its entirety only for its ban to be called upon at the very end.
vull wasnt the key to lc until just a few months ago. its been big throughout the gen but its practically doubled in usage in recent times so i dont agree with your statement. this isnt a case of a mon just being questioned late: things changed for it, which i think zebra did a good job of detailing above, to increase its usage and for it to become this much better than every other mon in the meta.
 
if we don't do it now we're gonna be looking back at sm like it's bw w that dumb broke shit where 1 mon has nearly 100% usage.
huh I must be misreading, yep no missy reference there

and that's pretty bs, vulla has definitely been the top mon in sm for the majority of the gen. sure it hasn't been 85% usage but im not gonna ban a mon simply on usage.
 
Under usual circumstances, I think there would be a decent case to ban Vullaby.
However, with gen 8 approaching, that has the potential to become a big mistake. We have a near complete understanding of the meta right now. It's very well-developed, and I think it's in a good state to be left behind as an oldgen. If we were to ban Vullaby, we risk losing that entirely. The meta could change drastically and it would have limited time to stabilize. Not to mention we'd then have reason to consider unbanning Trapinch, which may no longer be broken without Vullaby there to abuse it, and then Trapinch might make Abra broken, in which case we'd have to suspect Abra too, and we'd have to do all of that in under 4 months. And even then, isn't it likely that there will just be another broken Pokemon that arises, like there always is? One that could possibly be a worse presence than Vullaby? Then we'd be left with an oldgen that's not only less developed but also less balanced. Yes, perhaps we'd end up with an improved meta instead, but it's not worth the risk. The argument for banning Vullaby relies on guesswork that the meta is going to be able to stabilize in the mere months remaining before the next gen, and we shouldn't be making assumptions like that.

Once SM becomes an oldgen, the meta wont be able to progress nearly as fast. Let's play it safe and make sure we're left with a stable meta to play in future tournaments.
 
Why LC should retest sun and ban Bellsprout.
(Via a tournament where sun is free and bellsprout is banned, and based on the results of said tour, consider a ladder test)

Bellsprout is as synonymous with Sun as I am with bad viability posts about Meowth. We see that throughout the suspect thread from 2017.


Bellsprout is mentioned 109 times.

Bulbasaur is mentioned 34 times.

Oddish is mentioned 13 times.

Exeggcute is mentioned 2 times. (Shoutouts Gummy)

Deerling is mentioned 1 time. (Shoutouts Gummy)


Based on this alone, it seems like one particular sun abuser might have been the problem, not sun itself. Let’s look what some relevant LCers had to say though.


In Quote’s post (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/) he notes Bellsprout’s ability to net 2HKO’s on checks with Poisonium Z allows Bulbasaur to sweep with less support.

In Shrug’s post (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7264386) he mentions that the “two core members” of sun are Vulpix and Bellsprout.

In Levi’s post (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7257974) listing Pro-Ban Arguments Levi states “Acid Downpour + Sleep Powder allow Bellsprout to break through traditional Sun checks.”

In Zebraiken’s post (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7260509) his definition of the sun teams that are problematic is “Vulpix + Bellsprout + Bulb/Oddish + whatever”.


Seems like Bellsprout might be the problem.



Let’s take a look at the reasons Sun was banned and address them relative to the current metagame and a theoretical metagame where sun is free and Bellsprout isn't.


Pro-Ban Arguments (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7257974)

  1. Acid Downpour + Sleep Powder allow Bellsprout to break through traditional Sun checks.
  2. The high speed tiers of Chlorophyll Sweepers makes them more difficult to deal with than most other offensive pokemon.
  3. Hard checks to sun are generally not very viable in the current metagame outside of checking sun.

Let’s address the first point. That is Acid Downpour + Sleep Powder allow Bellsprout to break through traditional Sun checks. This point isn’t untrue, however why is Bellsprout the mon that is named that is broken because of Acid Downpour + Sleep Powder when Bulbasaur and Oddish both have access to the exact same combo? I’ll tell you why. The combination of Acid Downpour and Weather Ball are what makes Bellsprout so threatening. Sun-boosted Weather Ball hits many common sun checks incredibly hard.


196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 116 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO

Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 36 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Grimer-Alola in Sun: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12)



This is made worse if Bellsprout is running Life Orb with a different sun abuser utilizing a Z-Move.

196+ SpA Life Orb Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 116 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

196+ SpA Life Orb Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 36 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Grimer-Alola in Sun: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)


So with Poisonium Z OR Life Orb Bellsprout cannot be switched into by SpD Vullaby and SpD Grimer-A, only needing to hit sleep powder as Poisonium Z vs Grimer-A. This means that the person playing against sun is forced to sack something to bring in Vullaby or Grimer.


This is all stuff we already know. You might wonder why I’m even talking about it. You might ask “Doesn’t this prove that sun is broken?”, to which I would answer that, yes, sun is broken... with Bellsprout. Without Bellsprout however, Sun isn’t nearly as terrifying. Let’s take a look at Bulbasaur. It gets Acid Downpour and Sleep Powder. However without Weather Ball Bulbasaur is forced to run Hidden Power Fire or be walled by Ferroseed or Foongus (On sets without Growth). I’ll talk about Growth Bulbasaur later. For now we are comparing Bulbasaur with Acid Downpour and Sleep Powder to Bellsprout.


One key difference between Bellsprout and Bulbasaur is that Bulbasaur CAN be switched into.

240+ SpA Bulbasaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 36 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Grimer-Alola in Sun: 5-7 (20 - 28%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO

Possible damage amounts: (5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)

240+ SpA Life Orb Bulbasaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 36 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Grimer-Alola in Sun: 6-9 (24 - 36%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO

Possible damage amounts: (6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)


Of course, Bulbasaur still has Sleep Powder, just like Bellsprout. However with Bulbasaur the sun team is forced to play more safely since they cannot just break checks with Weather Ball like Bellsprout can. Bulbasaur is still incredibly threatening, but not quite as broken. It would also struggle because other sun sweepers (Oddish/Deerling) cannot break through checks like Bellsprout and to a slightly lesser extent Bulbasaur can.


There is also the question of what runs sleep powder in the absence of Bellsprout. Oddish and Bulbasaur both have moves they want that they are forced to give up. Bulbasaur is forced to choose between Growth and Sleep Powder, while Oddish is forced to choose between Moonblast/Sleep Powder/Strength Sap. Giving up Growth on Bulbasaur would already make sun less threatening, while Oddish would lose out on some of the more unique options it gets.



Let's look at point #2. “The high speed tiers of Chlorophyll Sweepers makes them more difficult to deal with than most other offensive pokemon.”


This is a valid point. Bellsprout and Bulbasaur hit insane speed tiers, outspeeding most scarfers. However if Bellsprout is removed, what replaces it? In my opinion Oddish is the best candidate. If Oddish becomes the 2nd abuser on a sun team is point #2 still true? Oddish prefers to run Modest, and only hits 24 speed under sun. This is slower than 17 speed scarfers. If Oddish does choose to run Timid it hits 13 speed or 26 under sun. This is still slower than scarf 18 speed mons such as Gastly or Doduo. Bellsprout had the option of running Timid to outpace scarf Gastly, but Oddish doesn’t have that option. While Chlorophyll Sweepers would still have very high speed tiers, with the removal of Bellsprout and theoretical replacement by Oddish this point would be slightly less valid.


In(https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7275976) Gummy says “it seems that only the double Chlorophyll build of Sun is suspect-worthy, but I then considered whether builds without Bellsprout were even problematic for the metagame. Outside of Bellsprout, the main viable partners for Bulbasaur would be Oddish and Exeggute, both of which are rather lackluster. Not only is Oddish rather slow for a Chlorophyll sweeper (26 Speed max, outsped by the fair few 18+ Spe scarfers in the tier), its movepool is less impressive than Bellsprout's, mainly lacking the important Weather Ball for Steel coverage, forcing it to resort to Hidden Power Fire to hit threats such as Pawniard and Grimer-Alola. Exeggute, while sitting at a much more respectable 28 Speed, is considerably weaker than both Oddish and Bellsprout, and lacks the Poison-type nuke that makes double Chloro so dangerous, instead swapping it for a Psychic-type secondary STAB that honestly isn't strong enough. The two sit at C and D ranks on the VR for a reason. While Deerling is another semi-viable Chlorophyll sweeper, it's a physical-based one that really doesn't overlap well with Bulbasaur for the purposes of double Chloro.”


Finally let’s look at point #3: “Hard checks to sun are generally not very viable in the current metagame outside of checking sun.”


In(https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7260509) Zebraiken lists Ponyta, Grimer-A, Vullaby, and Abra as the primary sun checks and says “we can certainly keep sun around if you guys are a-OK with running (insert two of Ponyta / Abra / Vullaby / Grimer-A) on every team from here on out and still sometimes losing to well-played sun.”


According to the current LCPL stats Vullaby is the #1 most used mon in LC with an 85.05% usage rate. Vullaby defines the meta and is already on nearly every team. Additionally Abra and Ponyta are still extremely viable and have seen 35.57% and 17.53% usage rates in LCPL 8. Given their current popularity in a meta without sun would running Abra and Pony or Abra and Vullaby or Vullaby and Pony truly restrict teambuilding?



I’d like to quote part of Levi’s post here. (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-suspect-longtime-sunshine-vulpix-is-banned.3597499/post-7260642)

“If you think about it, Spritzee isn't actually very good on its own due to its passiveness; it's trivial to wall and extremely easy to Knock Off and wear down. It doesn't reliably check a whole lot outside of Fighters or Vullaby, and is unmatched among high tier Pokemon in its ability to allow a whole slew of major threats into play, including Gastly, Magnemite, and the entire Sun core. You'll frequently see more offensive teams forgo a Fairy resistance completely, despite how easy they are to fit onto a team, because even a totally unprepared team can simply wear Spritzee down. We're just so used to Fighters dominating the metagame that it feels natural to include a Fighter check; Sun being such a strong threat is relatively new, so it comes off as a bigger hassle to go out of our way to prepare for it.


Sun's soft checks are fairly easy to muscle through with multiple abusers, but breaking through soft checks with offensive cores is not unique to double Chlorophyll; type spam has always been very strong in LC. Z-Bounce Mienfoo, Ice/Fire Punch Timburr, Life Orb wall-breakers, and so on are all methods that Fightspam can use to get past Foongus or Croagunk. Doduo or Rufflet just flat out 2HKO most bird checks. Darkspam checks are worn down throughout the match by all the Knock Off users. Due to the drawbacks of hard checks, most teams will instead pack multiple ways to deal with Fightspam and Birdspam; in a metagame where Sun is a top threat, we add Chlorospam to that list. And while double Chlorophyll can still win against a team that is prepared for Sun, this is no different from how Fightspam will still have a good chance against teams that run multiple Fighter checks.



Overall, I feel that while Sun ranks among the stronger archetypes in the current metagame, it is not more overwhelming powerful or restricting than other top strategies, such as Fightspam.”


Packing multiple checks (as listed above) would not be a problem considering how prevalent some of the main checks to sun currently are. Additionally, without Bellsprout, the ability of sun to muscle through multiple checks would be significantly hampered.


Bonus Point: If Porygon was freed in Conjunction with a sun retest Trace Porygon would be an additional problem for Sun


USAGE STATS FROM R1 of 2017 Spring Ssnl
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Staryu | 245 | 51.91% | 52.65% |
| 2 | Mienfoo | 225 | 47.67% | 42.22% |
| 3 | Onix | 169 | 35.81% | 43.20% |
| 4 | Timburr | 150 | 31.78% | 33.33% |
| 5 | Pawniard | 146 | 30.93% | 67.12% |
| 6 | Vullaby | 142 | 30.08% | 49.30% |
| 7 | Grimer-Alola | 130 | 27.54% | 30.77% |
| 8 | Abra | 116 | 24.58% | 75.00% |
| 9 | Diglett | 108 | 22.88% | 52.78% |
| 10 | Croagunk | 85 | 18.01% | 80.00% |
| 11 | Larvesta | 74 | 15.68% | 18.92% |
| 12 | Foongus | 70 | 14.83% | 64.29% |
| - | Pumpkaboo-* | 68 | 14.41% | 44.12% |
| 13 | Cottonee | 65 | 13.77% | 86.15% |
| 14 | Vulpix | 51 | 10.81% | 47.06% |
| 15 | Sandygast | 50 | 10.59% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Ferroseed | 46 | 9.75% | 54.35% |
| 17 | Bellsprout | 45 | 9.53% | 44.44% |
| 18 | Pumpkaboo-Super | 44 | 9.32% | 38.64% |
| 19 | Gastly | 41 | 8.69% | 53.66% |
| 20 | Shellder | 40 | 8.47% | 57.50% |
| 20 | Chinchou | 40 | 8.47% | 55.00% |
| 22 | Snubbull | 36 | 7.63% | 50.00% |
| 22 | Ponyta | 36 | 7.63% | 41.67% |
| 22 | Dwebble | 36 | 7.63% | 36.11% |
| 25 | Spritzee | 33 | 6.99% | 48.48% |
| 26 | Snivy | 29 | 6.14% | 41.38% |
| 27 | Doduo | 27 | 5.72% | 48.15% |
| 28 | Drilbur | 26 | 5.51% | 53.85% |
| 28 | Vulpix-Alola | 26 | 5.51% | 46.15% |
| 28 | Archen | 26 | 5.51% | 30.77% |
| 31 | Mudbray | 25 | 5.30% | 20.00% |
| 32 | Magnemite | 24 | 5.08% | 58.33% |
| 33 | Zigzagoon | 23 | 4.87% | 52.17% |
| 33 | Scraggy | 23 | 4.87% | 39.13% |
| 35 | Rufflet | 20 | 4.24% | 40.00% |
| 36 | Elekid | 19 | 4.03% | 57.89% |
| 37 | Surskit | 18 | 3.81% | 38.89% |
| 37 | Mareanie | 18 | 3.81% | 33.33% |
| 37 | Omanyte | 18 | 3.81% | 16.67% |
| 40 | Bulbasaur | 17 | 3.60% | 29.41% |
| 41 | Kabuto | 15 | 3.18% | 53.33% |
| 41 | Pumpkaboo-Small | 15 | 3.18% | 40.00% |
| 43 | Sandshrew-Alola | 12 | 2.54% | 58.33% |
| 44 | Corphish | 11 | 2.33% | 81.82% |
| 44 | Frillish | 11 | 2.33% | 63.64% |
| 46 | Slowpoke | 10 | 2.12% | 70.00% |
| 47 | Carvanha | 9 | 1.91% | 55.56% |
| 47 | Wynaut | 9 | 1.91% | 44.44% |
| 47 | Torchic | 9 | 1.91% | 44.44% |
| 47 | Cranidos | 9 | 1.91% | 33.33% |
| 51 | Meowth | 8 | 1.69% | 12.50% |
| 52 | Stunky | 6 | 1.27% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Snover | 6 | 1.27% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Salandit | 6 | 1.27% | 33.33% |
| 52 | Natu | 6 | 1.27% | 16.67% |
| 52 | Clamperl | 6 | 1.27% | 16.67% |
| 52 | Munchlax | 6 | 1.27% | 0.00% |
| 58 | Oddish | 5 | 1.06% | 100.00% |
| 58 | Wimpod | 5 | 1.06% | 40.00% |
| 58 | Bunnelby | 5 | 1.06% | 20.00% |
| 58 | Pikipek | 5 | 1.06% | 20.00% |
| 62 | Taillow | 4 | 0.85% | 75.00% |
| 62 | Hippopotas | 4 | 0.85% | 75.00% |
| 62 | Wingull | 4 | 0.85% | 75.00% |
| 62 | Koffing | 4 | 0.85% | 50.00% |
| 66 | Skrelp | 3 | 0.64% | 100.00% |
| 66 | Pancham | 3 | 0.64% | 100.00% |
| 66 | Spinarak | 3 | 0.64% | 66.67% |
| 66 | Tentacool | 3 | 0.64% | 66.67% |
| 66 | Venipede | 3 | 0.64% | 66.67% |
| 66 | Sewaddle | 3 | 0.64% | 66.67% |
| 66 | Tyrunt | 3 | 0.64% | 33.33% |
| 66 | Aipom | 3 | 0.64% | 33.33% |
| 66 | Fletchling | 3 | 0.64% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Buneary | 2 | 0.42% | 100.00% |
| 75 | Horsea | 2 | 0.42% | 100.00% |
| 75 | Voltorb | 2 | 0.42% | 50.00% |
| 75 | Sandshrew | 2 | 0.42% | 50.00% |
| 75 | Honedge | 2 | 0.42% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Mime Jr. | 2 | 0.42% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Darumaka | 2 | 0.42% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Tirtouga | 2 | 0.42% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Morelull | 2 | 0.42% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Mantyke | 2 | 0.42% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Numel | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Trubbish | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Hoppip | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Cyndaquil | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Anorith | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Dratini | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Litleo | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Paras | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Exeggcute | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Charmander | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Larvitar | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Lileep | 1 | 0.21% | 100.00% |
| 85 | Meowth-Alola | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Klink | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Shelmet | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Sandile | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Cherubi | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Riolu | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Deerling | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Rowlet | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Houndour | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Tyrogue | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Munna | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Togepi | 1 | 0.21% | 0.00% |
[/CODE]


Imagine argueing against banning something at nearly 80% usage when Sun got banned with a 15% usage and a negative winrate. If a mon or archetype can't consistently win it isn't broken. With how nerfed special attackers in SM are with the bans of Sun and Wingull, and the removal of trapinch making Abra and Gastly's lives harder Vullaby is certainly broken right now. We have 2 paths we can go down as a community. We can rally for vull to be banned, or we can right the wrong that was done when Sun was banned despite showing only 10% usage in SPL at the highest level of play, and showing a negative winrate and low usage in a large sample size in the R1 of the 2017 Spring Ssnl. Freeing sun will rebalance the meta, but right now it is unbalanced and the only ways to change that are freeing sun or banning vull.
 
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Gonna put my short opinion in here cause was in voice call w/ Levi and we were discussing vull and I reread thread. I'm much more in dcae and zebra's opinion that vull is broken right now and timing should never be a reason to let a broken presence stay in a tier but I understand the whole monopoly effect and massive impact it would have on the tier for open, slam, snake draft, all that jazz so I get why it's still here. This is super odd and a new case though cause generally from what I've seen most people agree that it's broken, the big issue is the timing of this all. Abra suspect into LCPL into LC Open into Snake Draft into Sword and Shield; there's no free time to even consider suspecting it without potentially completely flipping the tier on its head during a huge LC tournament. However, end of the day I'm of the opinion that some shit like "Yea it's broken but SM ends in 4 months" is not a reason to keep a broken presence here.

I'm not sure how people think vullaby isn't broken when it's getting 80%+ usage consistently which is usually more than double the 2nd most used mon. Usage isn't an absolute sure but you have literally no reason ever to not use it. If you're not using webs and don't have a vullaby you're literally at a disadvantage from preview and even on webs vull is still super good. It's also got multiple sets that literally do not have switch ins and can run 6-8 different sets very viably and inconspicuously. If you've played LC you know how dumb this thing is just facing it. You can't realistically cover up and play around NP, corebreaker, scarf, bulky juice and so on in builder or in game you kinda just have to assume it's x/y set at preview and try your best to limit what it does and the chances you give it but it's so amazingly good it's gonna generally get multiple chances to do something every game. There's plenty better worded, more written pieces about Vull I'd imagine but it's overcentralizing to an unhealthy degree in builder and in battle.

In my opinion the biggest issue in LC by far is just z moves as a whole and if I could personally I would just completely ban them. They're just not healthy period. I don't think vullaby would even be in the discussion of being broken w/o z moves. This would also bring us back stuff like Wingull but that's super unlikely to ever happen since z moves are the gen 7 thing and 1 tier banning z moves out of nowhere 2 years into SM would be fucking nutty.

Realistic moves I think would be to at minimum have council members come out here and give their thoughts on Vullaby as a pokemon in the current meta without putting time into the equation at all. Just do you think it's healthy or unhealthy, broken or balanced? why? kinda stuff and take action from there.
 
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i've kinda made my thoughts semi clear on discord, but as plas pointed out I do think it's important for council to be as transparent as possible. to preface though, please keep in mind that there is no vendetta / ulterior motive when it comes to vullaby or the lc metagame as a whole when it comes to council. being a supposedly fun pokemon site I know its funny to post memes about lc elite n shit and apparently theres an idea of us being lazy or w/e, but I promise none of this is the case. there has been lengthy discussions not only about vullaby but countless other things throughout this gen, and while we're not posting logs of the council chat, please just try and trust that quote and levi put the right people in a position to make decisions about what they think is best for the tier.

personally, I wanted vullaby suspected wayyy earlier this gen. as many might know, I was a little peeved about the wingull suspect, and a major reason was not only because I thought wingull was balanced, but because I thought there were bigger things on the table. one of those things was vullaby. now, this isn't to say that I thought vullaby was broken. on the contrary, I've never really felt like vullaby was broken per se, but rather a mon that was incredibly powerful and variable in its sets, but ultimately healthy for the lc tier. healthy is a relative term and I strongly believe it comes down preference in how you want your metagame, but nonetheless I can't say if I would of voted ban vull or not if there was a suspect back then. since then, I've grown accustomed to vullaby in the lc metagame to the point where I think it is the centerpiece of the metagame. while some might look at the 85% usage and automatically think this is a bad thing, I don't necessarily think this is the case.

if this was a case of murkrow, misdreavus, or gligar, pokemon that would mainly get that type of usage almost exclusively for their offensive prowess, i think this would be a different story. these types of mons have little to no counters, insane movepools, and the perfect stats to make use of everything. not to mention, they're all 19 speeders, something that is coveted in the lc meta. the fact is though this is not the case with vullaby. vullaby doesn't get this usage simply because z vulla is the best set and completely obliterates everything. z vullaby takes very careful play to use, and often relies on strong predictions to even get the most out of it. rock type rockers are essentially on every team, not only because they counter vull but because they are the best rockers in the tier. this means that almost every team is guaranteed to have a solid vullaby check right from the get go, and then it's up to you to carry more (such as spritzee, pawniard, strong priority, or even bulky presences like mudbray or id mareanie). while I get that vullaby can run coverage for most of these things, the fact remains prediction is still a very key aspect of this, especially when onix is going to outspeed and beat any vullaby that predicts wrong. circling around, no, the main reason vullaby gets this type of usage is not its offensive prowess (although it helps), but rather the amazing support it provides for a team. while, yes, it is the best defogger in the tier and this can't be understated, this is only the tip of the iceburg. whether you wanna play a game of dictionary or not, the fact is vullaby checks a large portion of the strongest pokemon in the metagame, those being fighters, gasbra, and grasses, and essentially anything physical that doesn't ohko due to weak armor. continually, its arguably the best knocker in the tier, something that allows you to always have a chance at knocking a bulky threat. these are the reasons vullaby is used on almost every team, and I believe the z vullas are simply the thing that has pushed vulla over the edge for some people. I strongly dislike z moves but the fact is they're a part of gen 7 and if you look deeper, running z on vulla kinda takes away a lot of what makes it such a good mon: its bulky and longevity.

while I can't deny that vullaby is a super strong offensive threat, I think only looking at that aspect and failing to realize what it provides to each lc team is a huge mistake. the lc metagame has grown to somewhat revolve around vullaby, not in a bad way, but because vullaby allows you to compress a variety of roles (checks to certain mons, defog, and a continuation of offensive pressure) that makes building a team of 5 mons around it much easier. you can look at this in a way of "oh, I have to run vullaby on every team, this tier is so centralized", or you can realize that being able to fit all that on one mon allows you to run variables of teams that otherwise wouldn't be possible without you being absurdly matchup weak to a bunch of other stuff. while obviously I can't "prove" this, I do find it hard to not fit vullaby on a team when building mostly due to this problem. I can't build without it without conceding to being absurdly weak to some certain mon or a certain archetype.

so, with that in mind, along with the fact that sm is coming to an end, I do not believe banning vullaby is in the best interest of this tier. sure, simply not banning something because of timing issues is stupid, but the fact is that isn't the only factor. if anything, that is just the icing on the cake when it comes to my (and im sure other council members) opinions on vullaby. vullaby has not only grown to be a major player in sm lc, I believe it is sm lc, and banning it will have consequences that I don't believe will be good for the tier in the long run.
 

Nineage

Pugnacious.
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I think the issue with fatty's post is that it's an argument against banning Vullaby, rather than an argument against suspecting Vullaby. The central purpose of a metagame council shouldn't be to decide what is broken, but rather to decide what deserves a community vote. A large segment of the community (including, in this thread alone, notable players like dcae, Plas, and BurntZebra) believes that Vullaby is broken or else worthy of a suspect. Fatty himself concedes that he was at one point in favor of a suspect. Additionally, while evidence on this is difficult to quantify, I think it's hard to argue that Vullaby doesn't deter new players (from PS randoms to non-LC-mains on Smogon) from playing LC or looking down on it. When a Pokemon has 85% usage, a fair number of experienced community members believe it is broken, and it is attracting negative attention towards the metagame, I believe that the decision NOT to suspect it speaks to the council's lack of faith in the community's ability to make an informed decision.

There are a few logistical reasons that I can think of not to suspect Vullaby. LilyAC brings up a fair point about disrupting a stabilized metagame. However, there is a precedent for this: BW Krow. This is a notable precedent for a few reasons: the Krow ban disrupted a far more stabilized metagame (in that it had been significantly longer since anything was banned or unbanned), it was done on a metagame that was virtually never played (and so had no real way to stabilize, whereas LC would have 1.5 months), and it was done without a community vote (meaning that a bigger destabilizing decision was taken with fewer voices in the room). My point is not to compare Vullaby to BW Krow in its "brokenness", nor is it to argue that the situations were exactly identical. My point is that if a decision that disruptive could be left up to a few people, a community of people should be trusted to make a decision that is less potentially disruptive. Undoubtedly, someone will argue that Murkrow was an exigent circumstance as it was a much more damaging force on the metagame - isn't the best way to test this to let a community of qualified voters speak on whether they believe Vullaby is a damaging force?

The main other reason not to suspect Vullaby that I've heard is that it will conflict with tournaments and tournament representation. I would argue that the best way to represent LC well in tournaments from a tiering standpoint is to have it be a varied, balanced, and interesting metagame. Luckily, Smogon's tiering philosophy has a mechanism to ensure a metagame that is maximally varied, balanced, and interesting: suspect voting. If banning Vullaby will potentially improve the quality of the metagame (and, thus, how it appears in tournaments), then it seems worthwhile to hold a vote on this change.

fatty's post brings up two sides of an argument about Vullaby. Its immense versatility gives it an amazing ability to act as a glue Pokemon and ensures that teams do not become overly-matchup reliant. However, this versatility also gives it the ability to get around most of its checks by customizing its moves, spreads, items, and ability. It may be that most of council agrees more with the first sentence, and sees it as a reason to keep Vullaby in the meta. However, I don't think anyone can deny that many LC players, including many experienced LC players, agree more with the second sentence. When did the council become uniquely qualified to weigh the brokenness of, and decide whether to ban a Pokemon?
 
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Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the year
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As promised in the LC discord a couple days ago, I've gotten together council's discussions on Vullaby as a banworthy threat so far. I unfortunately can't straight up make the council chat public because there's too much juicy gossip on users when we're discussing potential adds and so on, but this should cover all discussions on Vullaby in #councilofgay beginning after the Trapinch suspect. I added a space to @ mentions but the remaining logs are otherwise untouched.

Keep in mind that this isn't everything council members have said on Vullaby, as we frequently discuss it in #sm_lc (you'll see references to these discussions in these logs). Please feel free to join in the next time you see the topic crop up!

e: This is mainly just for transparency - the points brought up in these logs are points we've also used in other discussions on discord.

Council member discord tags -
levi: myself
Pre-Existing Conditions: Quote
living so italian: Coconut
Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Shrug
Ninja: Ninjadog13
Deleted User: dcae
Starmater: Star
fatty, kingler12345, and tazz have the same names on discord and smogon.

dcae stepped down from all LC positions during week 3 of LCPL (May 6th). Ninja and tazz were added near the end of LCPL (June 11).


The first (post-Trapinch suspect) mention was on April 29th, the start of week 2 of LCPL, following its mention in #sm_lc. We briefly discussed the potential effect that banning Vullaby might have on the metagame - no serious discussion for a suspect yet since we didn't want one happening in the middle of LCPL.
April 29th:
[1:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: people are not gonna shut up until there's a vull suspect, huh?
[1:29 PM] fatty: it kind of makes sense but it’s a tad bit of “next biggest thing”
[1:29 PM] fatty: but also hard to justify wingull ban over vulla even just from an offensive perspective imo
[1:29 PM] fatty: so idk
[1:32 PM] Deleted User: Im opposed to all future suspects
[1:32 PM] Deleted User: except resuspects
[1:32 PM] fatty: I kinda am as well
[1:32 PM] fatty: not to mention vulla ban would be the biggest meta shake up I think lc has ever seen
[1:32 PM] fatty: do we want to do that this late in the game
[1:33 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I know this isn't relevant to a suspect, but I really don't wanna see an lc meta w/o vull
[1:33 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: that shit sounds like fucking ass tbh
[1:33 PM] fatty: agreed
[1:51 PM] levi: Why would the meta be worse w.o vull huh
[1:51 PM] levi: I don’t see its presence on the meta being a serious positive at all
[1:52 PM] fatty: idt vull is used as much as it is because of its power, more it’s utility
[1:52 PM] fatty: it’s a blanket check to a lot of things
[1:52 PM] fatty: And the best defogger
[1:52 PM] fatty: but it also punches holes
[1:55 PM] levi: Yea it does everything but isn’t irreplaceable at any of them
[1:55 PM] levi: It’s just too good overall
[1:56 PM] levi: It’s pretty late in the gen and I think that’s our biggest issue
[2:13 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: late suspects are fine since we still have tours for the meta right up until gen 8's release
[2:13 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: and better to have a suspect now then look back at SM and argue about a suspect that we'll be afraid to do because "ugh touching old gens is baaaaad"
[2:14 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: not saying yes or no to a vull suspect but if we were to do one we could feasibly do it within the next couple of months
[2:17 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: as long as we have everything settled before the end of the summer I think we're fine
[2:54 PM] starmaster: oh Jesus fucking Christ can we please stop
[2:55 PM] starmaster: the post pinch meta is clearly even less diverse too
[2:55 PM] starmaster: why the hell r we continuing down this road ever
[2:55 PM] starmaster: vullaby is pretty much the only good ground immune in lc
[2:55 PM] starmaster: (Not counting gastly because it’s not doing anything defensively)
[2:55 PM] starmaster: It’s also the only good defogger
[2:56 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: oh I agree
[2:57 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I'm just laying down the facts that if we were to do one, it could be done at any point before the end of the summer
[2:57 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: and that people won't leave me alone about it
[4:55 PM] levi: Well unless you’re worried abt scarf mud and diglett popping off in vulls absence then I’m not seeing the lack of a huge ground immune as a game breaking loss
[4:55 PM] levi: And there’s like drilbur but vull doesn’t just check dril, it basically shut drils viab down completely
[4:57 PM] levi: It’s not even that reliable at checking non dril grounds, mud and onix bone it and it doesn’t impede dig more than most other mons
[4:57 PM] levi: It’s not an amazing removal either, it’s just super splashable
[4:58 PM] levi: But like if you’re running larv then you’re prob not relying on fog vull alone
[4:58 PM] starmaster: i think the trapinch suspect was already a laughable decision that clearly didnt help the meta for shit
[4:58 PM] starmaster: and vullabys far important than that ever was
[4:58 PM] levi: Like it’s not going to benefit diversity to any degree to ban vull
[4:59 PM] levi: So it’s not rlly that high up on my prio list
[4:59 PM] starmaster: if its not going to improve the meta we shouldnt do it.
[4:59 PM] starmaster: its that simple
[4:59 PM] levi: But idt it’s gonna kill the meta or w.e either
[4:59 PM] starmaster: well thats exceptionally bad justification
[4:59 PM] starmaster: for a suspect
[5:00 PM] levi: Yea I’m not actually
[5:00 PM] levi: Pushing for its suspect rn
[5:00 PM] levi: Esp by the time lcpl ends

April 30th:
[6:11 PM] Kingler12345: oh more suspects
[6:11 PM] Kingler12345: great
[9:16 PM] living so italian: the only thing I'd even want to consider is a wingull resuspect.
[9:22 PM] Deleted User: im opposed to all suspects


We mostly withheld formal council discussion until after ninja and tazz were added. Following a discussion on Vullaby in #sm_lc, we again discussed what effect a Vullaby ban might have on the tier. It devolved pretty quickly into a Trapinch-focused discussion, but Vullaby did get mentioned in terms of why it wasn't viewed as being quite as broken during the Trapinch metagame.
June 16:
[10:28 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: free gull free trap ban fly z
[10:28 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: tazz is mad at the fly z vulla set
[10:29 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: with good reason, fuck dcaer
[10:29 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: but
[10:29 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: we cant be having this current meta. it's bad!
[10:31 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: im like 40% serious about this
[10:31 PM] tazz: I think if we weren't 6 months out a vull sus would be nice
[10:32 PM] tazz: I do think its kinda broken
[10:32 PM] tazz: I know ninja and Levi agree
[10:32 PM] tazz: and like all of mdl
[10:33 PM] tazz: facts
gbtw
1. No Vullaby isn't in any way broken (3 votes)
7%
2. No it's a combination of its sets and how versatile it is (31 votes)
74%
3. Choice Scarfed is so powerful with great typing and U-turn (1 vote)
2%
4. Spdef Bjuice just tanks everything (0 votes)
0%
5. Offensive Bjuice has utility AND power (1 vote)
2%
6. Nasty Plot can break through literally any team (0 votes)
0%
7. Corebreaker and how easy it is to hide in preview is the most busted (6 votes)
14%
[10:33 PM] tazz: this is from mdl
[11:46 PM] starmaster: its like
[11:46 PM] starmaster: under 5 months out
[11:46 PM] starmaster: banning vull is an instant tier killer
[11:47 PM] starmaster: not to mention throwing lc open to the wolves

June 17:
[12:08 AM] levi: well it probably would but
[12:08 AM] levi: it's a matter of how much we have to lose
[12:08 AM] levi: imo
[12:08 AM] levi: banning vull would j be a gamble
[12:09 AM] levi: like on the off chance that the meta stabilizes fast enough then we've rid the tier of a busted af mon for free
[12:09 AM] levi: im still not rlly fond of the idea of a suspect this late, i don't really want to take that gamble
[12:09 AM] levi: but yea
[12:10 AM] levi: if you guys want to look into vull then im not abt to say no
[1:33 AM] starmaster: it’s one really truly awful idea
[2:51 AM] ninja: i think its kinda broken too
[2:51 AM] ninja: though idk what effect it'd have on the tier
[2:53 AM] living so italian: fuck you mean you don't know
[2:53 AM] living so italian: it literally holds the tier together.
[2:54 AM] ninja: i mean i dont if
[2:54 AM] ninja: it'd be better or worse
[3:01 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: that's not supposed to matter normally
[3:02 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: we should be reviewing the current meta and if vull's existence hurts it overall or helps it
[3:11 AM] ninja: o yea i just meant w what levi was referring to regarding risk
[3:11 AM] living so italian: I'm super heavily against potentially removing the pinnacle monster of the tier
[8:06 AM] Kingler12345: Banning pinch was a mistake
[8:06 AM] Kingler12345: Know this
[8:07 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I agree but some thought it made vulla too good
[8:07 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: so
[8:07 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[8:08 AM] ninja: Vull was just as good in pinch meta
[8:08 AM] ninja: Only real change is the decline of scarf vull rise of Z Vull
[11:00 AM] fatty: in no fucking way was banning pinch a mistake
[11:00 AM] fatty: there is absolutely 0 reason for that
[11:01 AM] fatty: it had basically an 85% banrate and warped the meta towards it
[11:01 AM] fatty: whether you had more fun this meta or last is not a good enough reason
[11:02 AM] fatty: this “this meta is trash” is actually annoying af to listen to when there’s actually 0 reason for why no pinch makes that the case
[11:03 AM] fatty: and pls don’t tell me it’s because of z vull because that has nothing to do with pinch
[11:05 AM] fatty: also I do not think we should ban vull sorry to say but it’s kinda the face of sm at this point
[11:06 AM] levi: Well this meta isn’t exactly popular but yea
[11:06 AM] levi: Idt it’s fair to attribute to the pinch ban
[11:07 AM] ninja: The pinch meta had just as much backlash
[11:07 AM] ninja: if not more
[11:07 AM] levi: The # archetypes deleted by the ban was v minimal
[11:07 AM] fatty: altho I don’t mind a suspect cause I always think community should decide I’d be pretty against it
[11:07 AM] fatty: yes I would just rly like an explanation
[11:07 AM] fatty: of why this meta is so bad lol
[11:08 AM] fatty: esp from council members
[11:08 AM] fatty: because others listen and just mimic with no actually reasoning
[11:35 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I think this meta is fien
[11:35 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I just hate banning shit
[4:06 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: banning pinch was indeed a mistake
[5:28 PM] starmaster: factual but I’ll live with the current meta
[6:04 PM] Kingler12345: man i HATE this meta
[6:04 PM] Kingler12345: it Blows
[9:49 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: it sucks yeah
[9:49 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: idk why we dont fix it
[9:49 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: by freeing our man trap
[9:55 PM] living so italian: because we can't override that huge of a ban
[9:56 PM] living so italian: we haven't had any meta changes at all
[10:30 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: why not
[10:30 PM] living so italian: because then it looks like we disagree with the community decision
[10:32 PM] ninja: i dont know how freeing pinch would solve issues anyway
[10:32 PM] ninja: ppl complained just as much then
[10:32 PM] ninja: and vull was still dominant
[10:38 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: people complained for the wrong reasons and vull wasnt that bad
[11:22 PM] fatty: im personally fine w/ the meta and do not support pinch resuspect
[11:23 PM] levi: it wouldn't be realistic even if enough of the council supported it
[11:23 PM] fatty: ye just making sure
[11:23 PM] levi: like i doubt that shit would go through hikari or whoever manages this stuff
[11:24 PM] fatty: well idt the reasoning is even good for it
[11:24 PM] fatty: like peoples main complaints w/ meta rn is apparently vulla
[11:24 PM] fatty: and i dont see how reintroducing pinch even helps that at all
[11:24 PM] living so italian: it doesn't
[11:25 PM] living so italian: it makes vull checks less viable
[11:25 PM] living so italian: even

June 22
[1:20 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: no it decenters vulla in the creation and playing towards objectives
[1:29 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: what pinch allowed for was different points of attack in teambuilding
[1:30 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: as in, you could build a team around going after x and y with z and covering a and b with pinch etc
[1:30 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: rn having to cover everything means relying on the wide checks like foongus and particularly vullaby
[1:31 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the blanket checks are all susceptible to vullaby etc etc
[1:33 PM] fatty: so you mean how a good meta should be
[1:33 PM] fatty: if ur relying on one trapper to shift an entire meta
[1:33 PM] fatty: that’s p bad
[1:33 PM] fatty: also dig can do a lot of that exact thing if not more
[1:33 PM] fatty: being able to tailor matchups towards the user anyways
[1:34 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i mean... the current meta is not how a meta should be?
[1:34 PM] fatty: it has nothing to do with pinch
[1:34 PM] fatty: And pinch doesn’t help
[1:34 PM] fatty: Is my point
[1:34 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: im saying that pinch does help
[1:35 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i think the evidence supports that
[1:35 PM] fatty: it absolutely doesn’t
[1:35 PM] fatty: What evidence
[1:35 PM] fatty: are you using
[1:35 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the fact that a bunch of good players think the meta is worse rn
[1:35 PM] fatty: yes that is factual evidence
[1:36 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i mean what do u propose in its place
[1:36 PM] fatty: and we’ve always touted choosing metas
[1:36 PM] fatty: Over choosing mons
[1:36 PM] fatty: I don’t propose bringing pinch back at all
[1:36 PM] fatty: there was more turmoil during that period
[1:36 PM] fatty: than now
[1:36 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: which was good
[1:36 PM] fatty: huh
[1:36 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: turmoil means fun metas, new shit, different lines of attack in games
[1:36 PM] fatty: why
[1:37 PM] fatty: pinch represented the exact opposite of that
[1:37 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: do not agree
[1:37 PM] fatty: then we have a fundamental disagreement lol
[1:37 PM] fatty: I not see how a mon which actively limited usage of mons
[1:37 PM] ninja: ppl generally did not like the pinch meta
[1:37 PM] ninja: even more so than now
[1:37 PM] fatty: made the meta better
[1:37 PM] fatty: it’s p absurd tbh
[1:37 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: it did not?
[1:37 PM] fatty: you can complaint about the meta
[1:38 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i think that's absurd tbh
[1:38 PM] fatty: But pinch into the thing holding it together
[1:38 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: it only really removed diglett
[1:38 PM] fatty: isnt*
[1:38 PM] ninja: it removed onix as well rly
[1:38 PM] fatty: what
[1:38 PM] fatty: ye that
[1:39 PM] fatty: the single best
[1:39 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: no it just increased the use of z
[1:39 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: you come from the assumption that the only healthy meta has onix in the first slot of 50% of teams
[1:39 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: that is not true
[1:39 PM] fatty: I also didn’t say that
[1:39 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i absolutely used onix in pinch meta
[1:39 PM] fatty: you come from the presumption of oh I had more fun last meta
[1:39 PM] fatty: must be pinch
[1:40 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: no i dont, im giving well-observed differences in the meta
[1:40 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: there was a greater diversity of rockers
[1:40 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: there were more mons available
[1:40 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: etc
[1:40 PM] ninja: maybe slightly more tirt
[1:40 PM] ninja: but like
[1:40 PM] ninja: it was just decreased onix usage
[1:40 PM] ninja: increaseed pawn
[1:40 PM] ninja: pawn was the rocker on as many teams as onix is now
[1:40 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: more rocks bray
[1:41 PM] fatty: well ppl just use resttalk now
[1:41 PM] fatty: Coz it’s fucking good
[1:41 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: yea but rocks bray was a good addition
[1:41 PM] fatty: was there rly more rocks mud lol
[1:41 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: yes
[1:41 PM] fatty: when the better ground to use
[1:41 PM] fatty: was pinch
[1:41 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: not every team needed a pinch!@
[1:43 PM] ninja: well reverse of that
[1:43 PM] ninja: scarf pawn is a good addition to the current meta
[1:43 PM] ninja: tht was made largely unviable by pinch
[1:43 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i mean i would differentiate between "was less used" (objectively true) and "was made unviable" (which i disagree with)
[1:44 PM] fatty: it was essentially unviable
[1:44 PM] fatty: nobody was running scarf pawn
[1:44 PM] fatty: just like you arbitrarily insert that more rockers we’re viable
[1:44 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: if u brought a scarf pawn u had to take care to bring something that punished pinch for coming in and trapping, which was often easy to do because of the teamstructure of teams that needed scarfpawn pursuits
[1:45 PM] starmaster: I used scarf pawn on teals teams multiple times
[1:45 PM] fatty: In pinch meta
[1:45 PM] starmaster: It certainly wasn’t unviable
[1:45 PM] fatty: hence essentially
[1:45 PM] fatty: Obviously you can use whatever you want
[1:45 PM] starmaster: well it wasn’t essentially unviable at all
[1:45 PM] ninja: when was this
[1:45 PM] starmaster: you just have to abuse punch with the other 5 mons
[1:45 PM] starmaster: snake
[1:45 PM] ninja: well
[1:45 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: ex scarfpawn + staryu was good because u could get the abratrap and then get retrapped but then what's the water resist on a gast-pinch team?
[1:45 PM] ninja: pinch usage wasnt rly
[1:46 PM] ninja: anyone near what it was right before the ban
[1:46 PM] fatty: ok picking at hairs here
[1:46 PM] fatty: scarf pawn wasn’t used nearly as much
[1:46 PM] fatty: ok happy?
[1:46 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: sure but the extent of the decline was a failure of teambuilding and the existence of a slight decline is not probative of pinch making the meta worse
[1:47 PM] fatty: it most certainly wasn’t a failure of team building
[1:47 PM] fatty: And this meta isn’t made better
[1:47 PM] fatty: With pinch
[1:47 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i mean i think it is?
[1:47 PM] fatty: shit I got flack for
[1:47 PM] fatty: thinking wingull was fine
[1:47 PM] fatty: and pinch was banned by much more of a majority
[1:48 PM] fatty: And there is no evidence that you speak of that shows pinch clearly is the reason
[1:48 PM] fatty: for@your terrible meta
[1:48 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the trick to pinch was realizing it was a 6 speed mon weak to two of the best attacking types in the game
[1:48 PM] starmaster: the pinch suspect also had literally 0 discussions and just 1 post
[1:48 PM] starmaster: That was proban
[1:48 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: and luthier has started talking to me about whether he made a mistake lol
[1:48 PM] starmaster: admittedly that’s entirely the fault of anti ban ppl
[1:48 PM] starmaster: But that definitely skewed voting
[1:49 PM] fatty: yes because it was generally agreed upon within discussions on discord
[1:49 PM] fatty: that pinch was fucked
[1:49 PM] fatty: if there was a good argument to keep pinch around
[1:49 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: im saying those discussions were wrong
[1:49 PM] fatty: we would of heard it
[1:49 PM] fatty: they weren’t lol
[1:49 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: we're making it now
[1:50 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: yea we shouldve done this at the time
1:50 PM] fatty: you’re doing it now because you don’t like meta
[1:50 PM] ninja: there was also discussion the in abra thread
[1:50 PM] ninja: where ppl agreed p much
[1:50 PM] fatty: And are looking for something to blame it on
[1:50 PM] ninja: that pinch was the major issue
[1:50 PM] fatty: when vulla is the obvious answer
[1:50 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: but i do think it took the contrast between this meta and the old one to reveal my thoughts fully, star and others can speak for themselves
[1:50 PM] ninja: id much rather ban vull than free pinch
[1:50 PM] fatty: But it’s also lc’s best blanket mon
[1:51 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: vulla is fine
[1:51 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: it's just a Good Mon
[1:53 PM] fatty: then what’s ur problem with the meta shrug
[1:53 PM] fatty: like I could maybe see ur points
[1:53 PM] fatty: if I knew what you hated about it
[1:54 PM] fatty: coz from my point of view you have a solid array of archetypes and an increase in onix, mag, and scarf pawn
[1:54 PM] fatty: different from other metas
[1:57 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i think the meta currently is too centralized and doesnt allow for creative teambuilding that attacks in different ways
[1:57 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: i think the meta focuses on the "core mons" to the point where any deviation is punished harshly
[1:57 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: whereas trap allowed for those different ways of being
[2:02 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7lc-401587
take something like this. pinch allowed for teal's charming bring of the monster SpA mons and band vulla by hitting either pawn or a scarfer based on team need. this is a cool concept. couldnt do it now
[2:04 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: band ruff, excuse me
[2:13 PM] fatty: yes pinch is the exact reason someone can run a bad mon like banded ruff
[2:13 PM] fatty: in no way do I think this is indicative of a good meta
[2:14 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: ??
[2:14 PM] fatty: if your reasoning is you can’t use band riff
[2:14 PM] fatty: ruff
[2:14 PM] fatty: I don’t agree
[2:14 PM] fatty: and nothing is stopping you from running it right now lol
[2:15 PM] fatty: Pinch actually stops you in builder from using things
[2:15 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: which mons
[2:16 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: u havent given any really
[2:17 PM] fatty: it single handedly limits the effectiveness of most rockers, magnemite, and diglett
[2:17 PM] fatty: And those are only the strongest influences
[2:18 PM] fatty: And wdym you have given zero mons that you can’t use
[2:18 PM] fatty: aside from banded ruff lol
[2:18 PM] fatty: you talk about centralization while completely ignoring the effects pinch had on the meta
[2:21 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the best team for like 8 months had mag on it
[2:22 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: and it reduced the effectiveness of most rockers but made none of them unviable
[3:03 PM] tazz: you've got a lot of convincing to do before a pinch retest is even feasible shrug
[3:03 PM] tazz: I don't disagree but it would be such a waste of time
[3:19 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: well what do you not disagree with
[3:22 PM] tazz: I think that the previous meta was less restricted in teambuilding and a bit more fun in that dimension
[3:22 PM] tazz: creative teambuilding was much more encouraged
[3:36 PM] levi: Yea again
[3:36 PM] levi: I don’t agree that the meta being better then
[3:36 PM] levi: Is a result of the pinch ban
[3:36 PM] levi: I agree that the meta rn isn’t good
[3:37 PM] levi: But at least on paper the pinch ban should’ve hurt vull way more than it helped for example
[3:37 PM] levi: It’s just that people have started using z vull more and so on
[3:38 PM] levi: You had marginally more pts of attack w pinch in the meta but an equal or greater % of them involved vull anyways
[3:39 PM] levi: And I stress that it was a fairly marginal difference, you could almost surely count the sub-archetypes lost on one hand
[9:01 PM] living so italian: is the meta bad because we banned trapinch
[9:06 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: yes
[9:13 PM] levi: No, pinchs ban did not play a significant role in why the current meta is bad
[9:54 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: No, the current meta is not bad.
[10:06 PM] fatty: quote is correct
[10:06 PM] fatty: it’s the usual end of gen lc meta bashing

June 23:
[10:15 PM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Wrong
[10:31 PM] levi: no idea abt bw but
[10:32 PM] levi: i don't think oras had any mons where like 85% of mdl considered it broken (vull)
[10:32 PM] levi: the closest we had was diglett?
[10:33 PM] levi: which was 50% hated in the theorymon suspect w.o it, 40% hated in suspects that included it


Another brief discussion in #councilofgay following one in #sm_lc -
July 11:
10:11 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: lol vullaby
[11:44 AM] levi: I mean vull isn’t in the same class as oras foo or w.e
[11:44 AM] levi: Foo was usually like
[11:44 AM] levi: A bit above 50?
[11:44 AM] levi: Vull had 85% usage this lcpl
[11:44 AM] levi: It got used more than foo and burr combined
[11:51 AM] fatty: I don’t think it’s wise to ban vull at this point
[11:51 AM] fatty: who cares about usage
[11:51 AM] fatty: vulla has had all the traits it currently has
[11:51 AM] fatty: all gen
[11:52 AM] fatty: why all of a sudden is there a push to ban
[11:52 AM] fatty: this is the problem with lc suspect this gen
[11:52 AM] fatty: something crops up and everyone hops aboard the band wagon
[11:53 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I could be wrong, but how I see it is that vull has been pretty fucking good all gen but it also had other mons surrounding it that were taking the attention away from it
[11:54 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: The bans that we've done this gen have made it so vull doesn't have to share its roles with as many mons as it used to
[11:57 AM] levi: You cannot discount 85% usage as a non issue
[11:57 AM] levi: That’s such an absurd number
[11:58 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: depends on what you perceive to be an issue
[11:58 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: Obviously with 85% usage it means the mon is crucial to the meta
[11:59 AM] levi: Crucial to the meta in its current state yes
[11:59 AM] levi: Also I think I agree with every usm ban anyways except pinch
[12:00 PM] levi: Where I feel like we just targeted the wrong part of the vullpinch core
[12:01 PM] levi: I realize those of you who think trapping is inherently an issue won’t agree on that but yea
[12:14 PM] fatty: I think the gull suspect and subsequent ban was hasty and ill advised, as I’ve said for a while
[12:15 PM] fatty: and pinch vull wasn’t even the main reason, it was people circumventing abra suspect
[12:15 PM] fatty: again tho I was in minority on gull at the time
[12:19 PM] fatty: gull was another capable defogger that could actually fit it on its moveset, and it forced teams to think twice about what team arc they were running
[12:23 PM] fatty: while also not being overbearing, it’s usage in tourneys and wr being fairly average


Have to break this up for the 65k character post limit - cont'd
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the year
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
Community Leader
Shortly afterwards, BurntZebra made his metagame discussion post which led me to consider just pushing the suspect out, but I ended up backing out because the large majority of my council disagreed with this. We then went into detail discussing whether a Vullaby suspect was realistic at this point, given how gen 7 was coming to a close. There was lot of emphasis on the degree to which Vullaby holds the tier together; normally this wouldn't be something we would consider, but gen 7 was going to become an old gen soon and we didn't want to leave it in a BW-esque position. Ninja and I believe the effects of its ban, while likely large, would be reasonable to overcome; fatty, quote, Starmaster believe Vullaby is too important as glue.
July 14:
[10:07 PM] levi: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3587196/post-8184361
[10:07 PM] levi: i like this post a lot
[10:07 PM] levi: + zebramans finally starting to post :heart_eyes:
[10:23 PM] levi: fatty idt people have been bringing up missy, dcae did bring up gar which isnt a gr8 comparison either but
[10:23 PM] levi: vulls at 85% in lcpl not 50%
[10:23 PM] fatty: huh
[10:24 PM] fatty: both dcae and zeb brought up bw
[10:24 PM] fatty: the only reason I can see that happening is the connection between a super high usage mon
[10:25 PM] fatty: and my 50% has nothing to do with usage it had to do with why it’s being used, pls reread
[10:25 PM] fatty: I am very much aware it is at 85% usage
[10:25 PM] levi: err am i misunderstanding
[10:26 PM] living so italian: it's amazing that people are comparing missy and vully
[10:26 PM] levi: u said its usage is mostly/at least 50%
[10:26 PM] living so italian: the only thing they have in common is their usage stat really
[10:26 PM] levi: also zebra brought bw in the context of
[10:26 PM] levi: it needing a lot of changes after the fact + people still being unhappy w it
[10:26 PM] levi: which i think is fair
[10:27 PM] fatty: vullabys high usage is very much due to the support it provides
[10:27 PM] fatty: this is what I’m getting at
[10:27 PM] fatty: throwing a percentage in there might not be smart
[10:27 PM] levi: thts fine ya
[10:27 PM] levi: but the 50% is confusing
[10:27 PM] levi: id prob just edit out
[10:28 PM] fatty: I changed
[10:28 PM] levi: :thumbsup:
11:12 PM] fatty: just ban vull already tho
[11:12 PM] fatty: we've seen the movie before
[11:12 PM] fatty: gonna be enough outcry, and if this goes to suspect
[11:13 PM] fatty: its 100% getting banned
[11:16 PM] levi: Ya the outcry is p severe
[11:16 PM] levi: I’d rather do it ASAP
[11:22 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: tbh it seems like the only people that don't want vulla gone are some of the council
[11:24 PM] fatty: id agree, and at that point im not gonna stand in the way of what the community wants
[11:24 PM] fatty: even if i think its a bad idea
[11:24 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I think it's a bad idea too, but if that many people really want it, then who knows? Might actually improve the meta? Hard to tell at this point.
[11:25 PM] fatty: i think ur gonna get rid of a powerful mon but also get rid of a mon that helps check a plethora of mons and playstyles in the meta
[11:25 PM] fatty: i dont see the meta being fixed w/ this
[11:25 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I do wanna see how the discussion would pan out
[11:26 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: but I'm afraid that people are just gonna bandwagon and there won't be a balance in the suspect discussion
[11:26 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: which has been my biggest problem with LC suspects this gen
[11:27 PM] fatty: hmm its like u know the lc community
[11:27 PM] ninja: abra suspect was p balanced in thread i think
[11:27 PM] ninja: though idt this would be
[11:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: everyone is so set in their ways that they don't bother talking about it and just vote
[11:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: which I think for vullaby is really not as clear-cut as people think
[11:28 PM] fatty: ye thats been my point vulla rly is a special case
[11:28 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: People just look at 85 and COVERAGE OPTIONS and start saying the worst
[11:28 PM] fatty: exactly
[11:28 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: that's my fear with suspect
[11:29 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I'm not blocking it purely because I fear a ban
[11:29 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: it's because I fear an ignorant ban
[11:30 PM] fatty: i dont like how ppl are completely discounting the timing of this and acting like because vulla is now more used than ever
[11:31 PM] fatty: is the reason its ban worthy now
[11:31 PM] tazz: i think the question is when
[11:31 PM] tazz: middle of open or middle of snake
[11:31 PM] fatty: if ur doing this
[11:31 PM] fatty: it needs to be done now
[11:31 PM] tazz: or end of snake
[11:31 PM] fatty: there is no point in doing this after snake
[11:35 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: at the very least doing the suspect now isn't rushing it since we've had a lot of time to think about it
[11:44 PM] levi: yea like meta being stabilized in time is 100% an issue
[11:44 PM] levi: the only way to minimize that is doing it now
[11:44 PM] levi: @ Pre-Existing Conditions if you agree then im gonna start prepping sth for tmrw even
[11:46 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: at this point we don't have a choice
[11:46 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I know some of you don't agree with this, but the community is so overwhelmingly in favour of it that we just have to trust them to actually hold a decent conversation
[11:47 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: on that note, if you guys do feel strongly about keeping vull in the meta, you need to make your voices loud and clear in the thread
[11:47 PM] levi: yea try to make it
[11:48 PM] levi: a two sided discussion at least
1:02 AM] levi: @ everyone any suggestions for the song
[1:31 AM] levi: if i dont receive any suggestions in time then i will pick an anime opening
[1:54 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: do not
[2:13 AM] ninja: sounds good @ levi
[3:02 AM] living so italian: if you pick an anime opening
[3:02 AM] living so italian: I delete the thread
[3:07 AM] living so italian:
[3:56 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Wanting vull gone is absurd
[3:57 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Absolutely not
[3:57 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Also don’t use that song
[3:59 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions:
[4:00 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity:
[4:00 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: But also don’t do a suspect
[11:00 AM] starmaster: lol
[11:00 AM] starmaster: what the fuck is the point of the council
[11:01 AM] starmaster: that’s so fucking ludicrous
[11:01 AM] starmaster: 2/3rds of the council is against this shit
[11:01 AM] starmaster: wow
[11:04 AM] starmaster: this is like if ou decided to suspect magearna
[11:04 AM] starmaster: Just because the public has been yelling for it for a year
[11:04 AM] starmaster: wow I just have no fucking words if you push this through with 3/9 council supporting
[11:05 AM] starmaster: why does this channel even exist
[11:06 AM] starmaster: maybe 4/9 if you include fatty and tazz but fatty is just legit just bending to the public which is retarded
[11:06 AM] starmaster: no matter what it’s not a majority
[11:07 AM] fatty: I’m not bending lmao I said I know what’s gonna happen
[11:07 AM] fatty: no where did I say let’s have a suspect
[11:08 AM] starmaster: Well I took “let’s ban vull already” to mean let’s have a suspect
[11:08 AM] fatty: and if it was gonna happen there’s no sense in waiting coz that’s even dumber
[11:08 AM] starmaster: but if you’re against it great
[11:08 AM] starmaster: that makes it 3/9
[11:08 AM] starmaster: I’m gonna cause a fucking issue if we have a suspect that 2/3rds of the council is against
[11:08 AM] starmaster: That’s beyond ridiculous
[11:11 AM] fatty: can we get an actual vote from council members
[11:11 AM] fatty: on if they want a vull suspect
[11:11 AM] fatty: coz that’s a super valid point
[11:12 AM] starmaster: I’m p sure everyone bar levi/ninja/tazz has stated they’re against
[11:12 AM] starmaster: but yea it can’t hurt
[11:13 AM] starmaster: pre-Existing Conditions Making Boombap Beats On Audacity @living so italian Kingler12345
[11:13 AM] starmaster: formalities
[11:14 AM] Kingler12345: against a vullaby suspect, lol
[11:16 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: if there's an honest discussion about vullaby and a proper vote then I'd be fine
[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Vullaby is the metagame
[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: It’s not a part of the metagame

[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: It absolutely is
[11:16 AM] fatty: ex fucking actly
[11:17 AM] fatty: ppl aren’t getting what this would do to the meta
[11:19 AM] starmaster: if you don’t think a suspect would happen the way it should then don’t support a suspect
[11:19 AM] starmaster: It’s that simple
[11:24 AM] levi: I mean yea, if 2/3 of you guys vehemently remain against it then there’s not much for me to do
[11:24 AM] levi: But I’m really not a fan of this distrust of the community
[11:24 AM] ninja: i think the suspect would go fine
[11:24 AM] ninja: like abra suspect
[11:24 AM] ninja: had balanced discussed and ended up not being banned
[11:24 AM] levi: I think the users who discuss and post now on discord have improved hugely over the past few years
[11:25 AM] levi: We’re way past the days where blarajan and fitzy72 were our top players
[11:25 AM] living so italian: vullaby is integral to the metagame
[11:26 AM] levi: It’s integral to an unpopular and heavily centralized meta why is this a good thing
[11:26 AM] levi: It’s deffo more unpopular than oras was at its end
[11:27 AM] levi: Oras reputation actually dropped through sm bc of revisionists
[11:27 AM] levi: I don’t know how it was in bw but that’s not exactly the gold standard anyways
[11:27 AM] living so italian: what's that have to do with our current metagame.
[11:27 AM] levi: I’m literally just saying our metagame is bad
[11:27 AM] starmaster: Or it could end up like the trapinch suspect lol
[11:28 AM] levi: And not particularly worth preserving
[11:28 AM] ninja: well
[11:28 AM] ninja: not a single person
[11:28 AM] ninja: posted in defence of pinch
[11:28 AM] levi: Who cares if it’s central to our metagame. Were literally trying to fix this meta
[11:28 AM] starmaster: because people r lazy as shit yea
[11:29 AM] starmaster: (Including myself there)
[11:29 AM] levi: Well there were literally four anti pinch users in total
[11:29 AM] levi: 3 on this council and the last one was serene
[11:29 AM] starmaster: That’s changed since then
[11:29 AM] levi: From what I’ve seen, literally the only regret wrt pinch was that we may have banned the wrong target
[11:30 AM] levi: Not that we shouldn’t have had a suspect
[11:30 AM] starmaster: regardless vull would go the same way
[11:32 AM] fatty: my problem would be community looks at usage and power
[11:32 AM] fatty: to make decisions
[11:32 AM] ninja: just set
[11:32 AM] fatty: I think this goes way beyond that
[11:32 AM] ninja: super high reqs
[11:32 AM] ninja: like 85
[11:32 AM] ninja: or smth
[11:33 AM] ninja: and if there's balanced discussion idt ppl are going to just bandwagon one side
[11:33 AM] levi: From what I know lily and serene are anti-ban too
[11:33 AM] levi: This is only going to be onesided if you guys let it be again
[11:33 AM] starmaster: that’s not true and you know it
[11:35 AM] fatty: ppl are sick of the meta i rly don’t think telling them to stick with the status quo
[11:35 AM] fatty: is a very convincing argument
[11:35 AM] levi: I mean we can go through the pinch voters
[11:36 AM] ninja: there was only
[11:36 AM] ninja: 32 voters for pinch
[11:36 AM] ninja: and theres 6 here + lily serene
[11:36 AM] ninja: thats rleady
[11:36 AM] ninja: 8 who would prob vote no ban?
[11:36 AM] levi: It’s literally just a matter of setting the bar high enough
[11:38 AM] starmaster: has quote voted recently
[11:38 AM] levi: no
[11:38 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: not for lc
[11:38 AM] levi: i really don't agree w pinch just being the work of a hivemind anyways
[11:38 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: but I would have voted no ban on most of the recent suspects
[11:38 AM] levi: i'm sure if you asked each and every one of those users they'd be able to arrive at the conclusion on their own
[11:38 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: maye I would have voted ban on pinch, idr
[11:39 AM] starmaster: I’m absolutely sure that’s nonsense
[11:39 AM] starmaster: Ppl just vote with their friends
[11:39 AM] ninja: i dont understand why the pinch suspect is brought up as an example when its entirely the fault of the anti-ban users for not posting anything
[11:39 AM] ninja: well
[11:39 AM] ninja: it still would've gotten banned but
[11:39 AM] ninja: no way it would have been as one sided
[11:39 AM] ninja: if the suspect thread was more than 1 pro ban post that had all of its arguments left entirely unopposed
[11:39 AM] starmaster: the pinch suspect isn’t my reasoning it’s just an example of how lc suspects can be terrible
[11:40 AM] starmaster: I don’t think vull should ever be suspected
[11:40 AM] ninja: the pinch suspect was partly terrible bc of no one anti ban posting anythign
[11:40 AM] starmaster: because 1. High usage isn’t equivalent to broken 2. It literally is the metagame and it’s too late to fix it no matter how optimistic you are
[11:41 AM] levi: i mean u were literally
[11:41 AM] levi: the biggest shaper of the meta last snake
[11:41 AM] levi: pre and post snake metas were hugely different, top level players having incentive to build every week
[11:41 AM] levi: makes a big difference
[11:41 AM] levi: so i don't agree w 2 at all
[11:42 AM] levi: 1 obv isn't true but the numbers are just too absurd, they're not a reason on their own but they're an illustration
[11:42 AM] starmaster: ofc it makes a difference but the fact is little cup has simply terrible hazard control outside of vull
[11:42 AM] levi: when vull has 85% and number 2 has 45%
[11:42 AM] starmaster: so matchup fishing nonsense is encouraged to a ridiculous degree
[11:43 AM] starmaster: and sure usage tells a story but
[11:43 AM] starmaster: lando used to have 75% usage in oras
[11:43 AM] starmaster: Didn’t mean it was ever remotely broken
[11:43 AM] starmaster: Clef has 70% now
[11:43 AM] starmaster: It’s still not banworthy ever
[11:43 AM] fatty: is everyone running z bb
[11:43 AM] levi: yea, theres literally twice as many teams not running clef as not running vull
[11:43 AM] levi: not rlly fatty it's just
[11:44 AM] fatty: from my understanding ppl are mad about z bb
[11:44 AM] levi: actually considered good now
[11:44 AM] starmaster: ,
[11:44 AM] fatty: and vulla havin “no counters”
[11:44 AM] ninja: huh clef is at
[11:44 AM] starmaster: ok fucking ubers then
[11:44 AM] ninja: 44
[11:44 AM] ninja: in wcop
[11:44 AM] levi: so it's +1 to an already v long list of sets
[11:44 AM] starmaster: Pdon has 99% usage
[11:44 AM] levi: well i'm 100% sure
[11:44 AM] levi: pdon would be banned
[11:44 AM] starmaster: It’s still not broken
[11:44 AM] levi: if ubers was a regular tier
[11:44 AM] levi: LOL
[11:44 AM] starmaster: no it wouldn’t
[11:44 AM] starmaster: It literally holds the tier together
[11:44 AM] starmaster: Same as vullaby
[11:44 AM] levi: yea i rlly dont agree w
[11:45 AM] levi: using the same tiering philosophy
[11:45 AM] starmaster: except crazier because it’s ubers
[11:45 AM] levi: as ubers here
[11:45 AM] fatty: ye ubers was a tier for a long time and pdon was considered the glue
[11:46 AM] fatty: like I was just saying in chat I think vull usage is a good thing
[11:46 AM] fatty: for this particular meta
[11:47 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: there's so much dumb shit that would be running around in LC
[11:50 AM] levi: webs and what else
[11:50 AM] levi: does vull seriously keep in check
[11:50 AM] levi: it's like
[11:50 AM] levi: the softest of soft checks
[11:50 AM] levi: for everything else
[11:50 AM] fatty: what
[11:50 AM] levi: snivy and foon?
[11:50 AM] fatty: it checks like everything
[11:51 AM] fatty: it’s a gasbra switch
[11:51 AM] levi: yea, it checks everything but not hugely well
[11:51 AM] fatty: it can check fighters
[11:51 AM] fatty: it doesn’t need to be hugely well lol
[11:51 AM] fatty: if it was amazing at it
[11:51 AM] fatty: yes it would be broken.
[11:51 AM] levi: like gastly and abra can ohko it after rocks
[11:51 AM] fatty: you can tailor to spd vulla
[11:51 AM] levi: the only set you can even include on a team and claim to be marginally less gastbra weak is scarf
[11:51 AM] fatty: are u rly arguing this
[11:51 AM] fatty: I’m done
[11:52 AM] levi: tbolt still
[11:52 AM] levi: ohkoes bj vull after rocks
[11:52 AM] levi: no matter the spread p sure
[11:52 AM] fatty: yes you can tech everything
[11:52 AM] fatty: it doesn’t change the fact that if played right it helps you with a ton of shit
[11:52 AM] fatty: soft or not
[11:52 AM] levi: it's a soft check
[11:52 AM] fatty: to many things
[11:53 AM] levi: i don't think soft checks are as valuable in holding the tier together as glue
[11:53 AM] levi: they'd be much more expendable in teambuilding if they weren't vull and good at everything else as well
[11:53 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the reason vullaby is a problem now to people is that their ideal meta is one where every mon has a mon you can switch in mostly fearlessly, and you should be allowed to go to it many times throughout the game. this is why we banned pinch and got to a meta where it was ok to bring in onix on vulla without the fear of a trap. but now that hp grass, a tech that was found in mid 2017, is back thats not viable so we must ban it
[11:54 AM] starmaster: you’re just being ridiculous for the sake of it if you’re seriously arguing that vull doesn’t hold the tier together
[11:54 AM] fatty: ye I honestly don’t know what else to say
[11:54 AM] fatty: if u disregard that fact
[11:54 AM] fatty: there’s no argument to be had
[11:54 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: shrug that's honestly what I've been saying for two years now
[11:55 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: well then youve been perceptive
[11:55 AM] levi: huh
[11:56 AM] levi: vull does hold the tier together but i think it does so
[11:56 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: the community as a while has been vastly overrating onix for ages now and it annoys the shit out of me
[11:56 AM] levi: in a pretty ugly way
[11:56 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: what pinch did was make you admit your own helplessness in some way, the trick was saying "im going to get rocks, die, and pressure the vulla" rather than going "i need this one mon to come in again and again
[11:56 AM] levi: i'd way rather just take chances w whatever comes next
[11:56 AM] levi: than deal w the current iteration of the meta
[11:56 AM] ninja: i think its unhealthily centred around vull
[11:56 AM] ninja: and ya idt onix is rly that good either
[11:56 AM] ninja: but the fact its on 50% of teams
[11:56 AM] ninja: is solely due to vull being overwhelming
[11:56 AM] ninja: bc its the best vull answer
[11:57 AM] levi: shrug idt a pinch suspect is realistic, only a very small portion of the community actually thinks it wasnt broken
[11:57 AM] levi: well pinch cores
[11:58 AM] fatty: what does that even mean, in an ugly way
[11:58 AM] levi: and wanting to have safe switchins to a mon that carries as much utility as vull is fine i think
[11:58 AM] levi: like it's nbd if abra or gast is annoying to switch into bc they bring almost nothing else
[11:59 AM] fatty: if vulla is such a bad soft check
[11:59 AM] fatty: vs let’s say gasbra
[11:59 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: the impression I get is that people wanna spam foongus mirrors, fighters, and ferropsritz
[11:59 AM] fatty: what’re my checks in a vulless meta
[11:59 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: and webs for free
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: and gastbra
[12:00 PM] levi: the same as the ones rn
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: oops that's a lot of threats
[12:00 PM] levi: minus one soft check
[12:00 PM] fatty: pawniard and diglett
[12:00 PM] fatty: you need that soft check
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I wish we had something to help check these
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: oops we banned that
[12:00 PM] fatty: for these mons I’m telling you lol
[12:00 PM] starmaster: the soft check gives you so much room to play around stuff
[12:00 PM] ninja: well if vull was gone
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: welp guess LC is a matchup shitfest again
[12:00 PM] ninja: i think bringing pinch back
[12:00 PM] levi: yes that's exactly right @ Pre-Existing Conditions we banned PORYGON
[12:00 PM] ninja: could also follow
[12:01 PM] starmaster: anyway this suspect should literally never happen with 3/9 ppl in support
[12:01 PM] fatty: it’s not just “this mon beats this” stars right the sheer amount vull makes people think about plays
[12:01 PM] starmaster: And nobody is convincing anybody here
[12:01 PM] fatty: or do something different
[12:01 PM] fatty: I absurdly important
[12:01 PM] fatty: is
[12:01 PM] fatty: pls no I’m not playing a meta where checking threats is predicated on trapping things
[12:02 PM] fatty: that’s absolute bs
[12:02 PM] fatty: let’s stop with the pinch shit
[12:02 PM] starmaster: The mere presence of vull makes smth like abra think 5 times before clicking psychic
[12:02 PM] levi: if rocks aren't on the field or vull is a potential scarf, sure
[12:03 PM] ninja: oh honedge would be a good abragast check
[12:03 PM] ninja: w no vull
[12:03 PM] ninja: bc its bad rn since it lets vull in for free every tiem
[12:04 PM] starmaster: spdef vull still eats gleam after rocks
[12:04 PM] starmaster: Also come on that isn’t the reason honedgeis bad
[12:04 PM] starmaster: It also lets in everything else for free
[12:04 PM] ninja: well aside from like ig burr as well
[12:04 PM] ninja: idt giving free turns
[12:04 PM] starmaster: mienfoo, pony, foongus if smth isn’t asleep
[12:04 PM] ninja: to other stuff
[12:04 PM] ninja: is as threatening
[12:05 PM] levi: well if we really want to talk abt the mons that vull holds back significantly
[12:06 PM] levi: then we have to go into the lower subranks
[12:06 PM] levi: since again, it's mainly only going to be a soft check to the upper ranked mons
[12:23 PM] fatty: well it’s checks the majority of A+ rank
[12:24 PM] fatty: which are the strongest mons in question
[12:26 PM] levi: hard checks
[12:26 PM] fatty: counter?
[12:26 PM] fatty: nothing
[12:26 PM] levi: checks w some reliability
[12:26 PM] levi: like
[12:26 PM] fatty: all of them...
[12:26 PM] levi: leviToday at 12:05 PM
well if we really want to talk abt the mons that vull holds back significantly
then we have to go into the lower subranks
since again, it's mainly only going to be a soft check to the upper ranked mons
[12:26 PM] levi: why is this wrong
[12:26 PM] fatty: because ur the only one getting caught up in this dumb ass definition bullshit
[12:26 PM] levi: it holds back gastly, abra etc slightly
[12:27 PM] levi: not that well
[12:27 PM] fatty: hard check, soft check
[12:27 PM] fatty: it checks them
[12:27 PM] fatty: It makes them easier to handle
[12:27 PM] fatty: What else do you want
[12:27 PM] fatty: that’s all I’m getting at, that’s all that matters
[12:27 PM] levi: it does not check gastly as well as a dedicated gastly answer will. if your team is weak to gastly then vull shouldn't be your sole answer anyways
[12:27 PM] fatty: dedicated gas answers don’t exist lol
[12:28 PM] levi: you cannot slap vullaby onto a team and say your team is no longer weak to gastly
[12:28 PM] fatty: are u talking grimer
[12:28 PM] fatty: coz that mon is shit
[12:28 PM] fatty: yes no mon does that Levi
[12:28 PM] levi: even diglett does a much better job acting as a gastly answer
[12:28 PM] levi: than vullaby does
[12:28 PM] fatty: no way lmao
[12:28 PM] fatty: you stay in on the pursuit and eball
[12:28 PM] fatty: if ur talking coverage
[12:29 PM] fatty: if trying way to hard to make it seem like vull doesn’t check shit
[12:29 PM] fatty: when it clearly does
[12:29 PM] levi: eball is not nearly as good as tbolt
[12:29 PM] fatty: you’re
[12:29 PM] fatty: tbolt is literally only for vull
[12:29 PM] fatty: I hard disagree
[12:29 PM] levi: it does check things but theres this claim that it'll become a complete matchup fest
[12:29 PM] fatty: and u can still
[12:29 PM] levi: w.o vull
[12:29 PM] levi: which i just don't agree with
[12:29 PM] fatty: well I don’t claim that
[12:29 PM] fatty: I do think the meta will be worse off tho
[12:29 PM] levi: vull is influencing the meta dramatically
[12:29 PM] levi: i don't disagree w that
[12:29 PM] levi: obv
[12:30 PM] levi: but i think theres way more room for the meta to improve than to get worse
[12:30 PM] levi: is all
[12:30 PM] fatty: I think vullas usage tells a different story
[12:30 PM] levi: "holding the meta together" sure, it does that too but i don't think that's a reason to keep vull
[12:31 PM] fatty: People are more willing to bring a mon they know will get the job done and can play in a way to limit a ton of mons
[12:31 PM] fatty: then gamble with diversity and team matchup
[12:31 PM] fatty: there’s a ton of threats on the meta and vull tends to check a lot of them
[12:31 PM] fatty: whether soft or hard
[12:33 PM] levi: the difference between soft and hard check in this case is that if vull is the sole hard check to sth that's already borderline
[12:33 PM] fatty: if anything the role compression vull creates might allow for more consistent team construction
[12:34 PM] levi: then yea, there's good reason to believe vull's ban will make it an issue
[12:34 PM] levi: if there's a dozen ways to build a team that's more resistant to specific threats than including vull, since it's only a soft check
[12:34 PM] levi: it means we're down an easily splashable tool but there's way more likely to be room
[12:34 PM] levi: to still deal w it
[12:35 PM] levi: with other things that vull had previously been holding back
[12:35 PM] levi: consistent team construction - i think this is something we strive not to have?
[12:35 PM] levi: like i'd rather a more diverse meta
[12:36 PM] levi: preferably not at the huge cost to balance but i think balance and diversity are the two things
[12:36 PM] levi: we're supposed to go for
[12:36 PM] fatty: solid tournament team construction that doesn’t border on the line of matchup
[12:37 PM] levi: ok
[12:37 PM] levi: how do we feel of the quality of the meta last snake
[12:37 PM] levi: beginning and/or end
[12:37 PM] levi: or the avg or w.e
[12:37 PM] fatty: I didn’t play snake
[12:38 PM] fatty: I can’t really comment
[12:38 PM] levi: well u were semi active right
[12:38 PM] levi: did u at least have a rough imperssion
12:39 PM] fatty: idk the only time I’ve had a real problem with the meta
[12:39 PM] fatty: was pinch gasbra
[12:39 PM] fatty: I don’t think the meta I bad rn
[12:40 PM] fatty: but to your previous point, i think its way more important to keep a mon that blankets a ton of shit
[12:40 PM] fatty: rather than one that keeps 1 think countered / hard checked
[12:40 PM] fatty: if that other thing is considered broken without its hard counter
[12:40 PM] fatty: then u ban it too
[12:40 PM] levi: well realistically if a single mon was keeping something else in check
[12:40 PM] levi: then the thing being kept in check was prob broken anyways yea
[12:41 PM] levi: im just not rlly seeing the importance in keeping a potentially broken mon just bc it's a soft blanket check
[12:42 PM] levi: ig it's relaly just coming down to
[12:42 PM] levi: how we feel of the meta rn
[12:42 PM] fatty: yea thats also true
[12:42 PM] fatty: if u dont like the meta, its because of vulla
[12:42 PM] fatty: and naturally you want it gone
[12:43 PM] fatty: altho shrug is the outlier lol
[12:43 PM] fatty: i think
[12:43 PM] levi: i think star kingler might be too?
[12:43 PM] levi: like the anti-pinch faction
[12:43 PM] levi: minus serene who votes anti ban every time bc he "doesnt want to build"
[12:44 PM] levi: anti-pinch ban*
[12:44 PM] fatty: yeah ig
[12:44 PM] starmaster: well I don’t think pinch should have been banned and I liked the meta better with pinch personally
[12:45 PM] starmaster: but I don’t think this meta is bad
[12:45 PM] levi: ah
[1:47 PM] tazz: I think this meta is fine as well
[9:46 PM] ninja: i understand ppl being anti ban but i dont get why there is such opposition to even a suspect
[9:46 PM] ninja: given there is clearly a significant demand for it
[9:46 PM] ninja: the lack of faith in the community to carry out the suspect properly seems ridiculous to me
[9:46 PM] ninja: personally I think the LC community has voted correctly on every single vote in SM
[9:46 PM] ninja: and the only one that was super one sided was the pinch suspect
[9:47 PM] ninja: which as previously stated is entirely the fault of the anti-ban ppl for not posting anything
[9:59 PM] fatty: because suspect = ban
[10:00 PM] ninja: yes i think that's a ridiculous approach
[10:00 PM] fatty: and if the majority of council thinks it shouldnt be suspected
[10:00 PM] fatty: i dont see the problem at all
[10:00 PM] ninja: i dont understand why there is such a lack of faith
[10:00 PM] ninja: in the community
[10:00 PM] fatty: its not ridiculous lol
[10:00 PM] ninja: ok bc they are equating suspect with ban
[10:00 PM] fatty: whats the point of the council
[10:00 PM] ninja: so obv they will never support
[10:00 PM] ninja: a suspect
[10:00 PM] ninja: there is no reason a suspect should be equated with ban
[10:01 PM] fatty: again if majority of council is against a suspect
[10:01 PM] fatty: what ur your reasoning for it being ridiculous
[10:01 PM] fatty: is*
[10:01 PM] ninja: no im saying
[10:01 PM] ninja: the logic of suspect = ban
[10:01 PM] ninja: is ridiculous
[10:02 PM] living so italian: I think perceiving it to not be a ban is potentially damaging
[10:02 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I guarantee you if vull gets suspected it'll be banned with an extremely high %
[10:03 PM] ninja: theres 6 ppl here alone + lily and serene
[10:03 PM] ninja: at the bare minimum
[10:04 PM] fatty: ik ur trying to think of the best ninja
[10:04 PM] fatty: but im sorry if its suspected its 100% getting banned lol
[10:05 PM] fatty: just look at the suspect we've had this gen
[10:05 PM] fatty: the only reason abra was saved
[10:05 PM] fatty: was coz of pinch
[10:05 PM] ninja: i think it would get banned but
[10:05 PM] ninja: idt it would be so one sided
[10:05 PM] ninja: that good posts wouldnt be able to persuade people
[10:06 PM] living so italian: ???
[10:06 PM] living so italian: be real
[10:06 PM] fatty: ur literally contradicting yourself
[10:06 PM] living so italian: you get 1, maybe 2 people who could change their mind after discussion
[10:06 PM] fatty: why would a council, that is majority in favor of not suspecting / banning
[10:06 PM] fatty: be willing to suspect something
[10:06 PM] ninja: bc suspect is being equated w ban
[10:07 PM] ninja: when it shouldnt be
[10:07 PM] fatty: where its assuredly going to be banned
[10:08 PM] fatty: its our job to think what we believe is best for the lc metagame
[10:09 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I think there should be some education done in the metagame thread first
[10:09 PM] ninja: i rly dont think that the result is beyond doubt
[10:09 PM] fatty: ok but again thats not the only reason
[10:09 PM] fatty: council members are against vull ban
[10:09 PM] levi: If you want some education done then you better do it asap @ Pre-Existing Conditions
[10:10 PM] levi: We ideally want to get the suspect done by snake signups if it does happen so
[10:13 PM] levi: I think our circumstances are unique enough that we can genuinely look into it
[10:26 PM] fatty: dude im getting sick of this
[10:26 PM] fatty: we've only ever done what we thought was best for the community
[10:26 PM] fatty: and somehow we're being vilified
[10:27 PM] levi: well
[10:27 PM] levi: star and kingler i imagine are looking to cater more to lc's image in tours
[10:27 PM] levi: but that's important too, they're on council for a reason
[10:27 PM] fatty: everyone is qualified to be on council
[10:27 PM] levi: but yea it's just
[10:27 PM] fatty: do ppl not get
[10:27 PM] levi: easy to villify council bc everything's done behind closed doors
[10:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I just don't think the fuckin bird is broken
[10:27 PM] fatty: why the fuck
[10:27 PM] fatty: there is a council
[10:28 PM] fatty: if we just catered to communitys bandwagoning needs
[10:28 PM] fatty: there is absolutely no reason for council
[10:28 PM] fatty: also idg what image has to do w/ this
[10:28 PM] fatty: i also play metagames other than lc
[10:29 PM] fatty: my interest is in lc
[10:36 PM] fatty: anyways
[10:36 PM] fatty: can we get a decision on what we're doing
[10:36 PM] fatty: coz this is very timely
[10:37 PM] fatty: are we voting on a suspect
[10:37 PM] fatty: ig not SUPER timely because we have 2 weeks or so but its definitely better earlier
[10:37 PM] fatty: than later
[10:38 PM] starmaster: well
[10:38 PM] starmaster: nobodys minds r changing
[10:39 PM] starmaster: its 6 to 3 against a suspect
[10:39 PM] starmaster: so i dont see a point in dragging this on
[10:39 PM] fatty: ye id just like it set in stone
[10:39 PM] fatty: if thats the case
[10:39 PM] starmaster: yea
[10:39 PM] levi: well again i want to think if
[10:39 PM] levi: there's a way we can get around that
[10:39 PM] levi: like set up a suspect in a way that works for you guys too
[10:40 PM] levi: even if posting a vull thread rn as usual isn't on the table
[10:41 PM] fatty: why are we trying to circumvent
[10:41 PM] starmaster: idk what that means
[10:42 PM] starmaster: how can a suspect work in any other way
[10:42 PM] levi: well im discussing
[10:42 PM] levi: joltage's suggestion rn
[10:42 PM] starmaster: which is?
[10:42 PM] fatty: vulless ladder
[10:42 PM] levi: leviToday at 9:39 PM
JoltageToday at 9:23 PM
Feel free to tell me to shut the hell up, but is there any reason we can’t run a Vull-less ladder for a period and then have the council make a decision regarding whether or not to have a public test. I’m thinking something similar to the dig test from Oras except in two potential stages
i like this a lot
it's a lot less extreme than actually basing the results of the test on the suspect-less ladder
we're only deciding whether a broken mon should be suspected
and even though it's kinda weird i think we can make a serious case for it, it might be what we need
bc we have: a generally agreed to be broken mon (not to the degree of some of our banlist), that has been an extremely central piece of of a meta that's nearing its end (not much time to fix the meta up after if something goes wrong, which is hard to predict given how influential the suspected mon is - this means it's harder to just say "broken = suspect")
[10:42 PM] levi: posted this in bigwig
[10:42 PM] fatty: id be down
[10:42 PM] fatty: but
[10:42 PM] fatty: only if we still had a council vote after
[10:43 PM] levi: yea 100%
[10:47 PM] ninja: what's different last yr vs now
[10:47 PM] living so italian: the announcement of the new game
[10:48 PM] levi: yea
[10:48 PM] levi: stuff related to the post-vull meta
[10:48 PM] levi: as opposed to themeta now
[10:48 PM] ninja: i personally do not think that should change anything
[10:48 PM] ninja: like
[10:49 PM] ninja: there's still easily enough times
[10:49 PM] ninja: time
[10:49 PM] ninja: its less than 4 months since pinch was banned
[10:49 PM] ninja: esp w snake on i think the meta would
[10:49 PM] living so italian: wow it's been 4 months since pinch was banned?
[10:49 PM] ninja: easily stabilise
[10:50 PM] fatty: yes i def woulda suspected vulla around when gull was suspected
[10:50 PM] fatty: but i was also very much against that
[10:50 PM] living so italian: pinch didn't have quite the stranglehold on the meta
[10:50 PM] living so italian: that vully does
[10:50 PM] living so italian: I think pinch had less than abra did
[10:50 PM] living so italian: at the time of the suspects
[10:51 PM] fatty: i think it being too late is 100% a valid argument now
[10:51 PM] fatty: altho i dont think its the best argument
[10:51 PM] living so italian: oh I 100% agree
[10:51 PM] ninja: well i mean ppl will still play it
[10:51 PM] ninja: going into gen 8
[10:51 PM] living so italian: it's a bad argument
[10:51 PM] ninja: esp if it doesnt have all the mons or w/e
[10:51 PM] living so italian: then we can suspect it
[10:51 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I just think the meta's in a nice spot
[10:51 PM] living so italian: during gen 8
[10:51 PM] ninja: if vull isnt getting suspected i would also support a gull retest fwiw
[10:51 PM] ninja: would heavily prefer vull though
[10:52 PM] fatty: ok mb not a great argument to stand on, but if ur looking for something to sway u
[10:52 PM] living so italian: I wouldn't be opposed to a resuspect
[10:52 PM] fatty: wingull
[10:52 PM] living so italian: as long as it isn't sun
[10:52 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: Sun can stay gone
[10:52 PM] fatty: but i would be very against doing a resuspect of gull for the sake of it
[10:53 PM] fatty: thats the problem w/ mons like gull the dont provide amazing utility so whats the point of resuspecting in the minds of most ppl
[10:53 PM] ninja: well i think w no pinch it wouldnt be as good
[10:53 PM] ninja: and would make the meta more diverse
[10:53 PM] fatty: i mean pinch wasnt at its peak
[10:54 PM] fatty: in gull meta
[10:54 PM] fatty: but kinda agreed
[10:54 PM] ninja: ye but pinch gull was still
[10:54 PM] ninja: p good
[10:54 PM] fatty: ye
[10:55 PM] fatty: i think wingull would be a very good resuspect
[10:55 PM] living so italian: fuck off shrug
[10:55 PM] living so italian: LOL
[10:55 PM] fatty: if that was on the table
[10:55 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: If bringing back wingull is the final straw to getting people to stop using onix for good...im down
[10:55 PM] fatty: if ur running double bird ur at a discerable disadvantage for certain mons
[10:56 PM] ninja: i also think more ppl are using 19 speeders
[10:56 PM] ninja: than in gull meta
[10:56 PM] fatty: and it forced different arcs
[10:56 PM] fatty: and ye it has more comp at 19 spe now
[10:56 PM] fatty: vulla was def less used
[10:56 PM] fatty: in gull meta
[10:56 PM] fatty: while gull was not "dominant" in terms of usage
July 17:
[1:13 PM] tazz: i’ll prob vote against a vull ban and ill post against it but i think we should still suspect it
[1:14 PM] tazz: just in an effort to be responsive
[1:14 PM] tazz: I would rather not do a wingull resuspecf


And then of course, the decision to write up this post after a discussion in #the_pool following Nineage's post:
August 11:
[7:33 PM] starmaster: @Council
[7:33 PM] levi: We can just
[7:33 PM] starmaster: if someone feels like making a post summarizing our discussion thats cool
[7:33 PM] starmaster: if not
[7:34 PM] levi: Paste the whole thing in a pb
[7:34 PM] starmaster: can we just paste all the logs
[7:34 PM] starmaster: yea
[7:34 PM] levi: W a summary?
[7:34 PM] levi: Ok
[7:34 PM] levi: I can do that tmrwprpb
[7:34 PM] starmaster: bet
[8:13 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: "Please do your jobs."
[8:16 PM] starmaster: yea his post was really bad
[8:16 PM] starmaster: the fucking krow comparison is retarded
[8:17 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: Yea that was awful
[8:17 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: Nineage's post is basically saying that the council's opinion doesn't matter and that we should pay more attention to the public opinion
[8:17 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: like
[8:17 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: get outta here
[8:21 PM] levi: the murk comparison is fine if we consider murk valid precedent
[8:21 PM] levi: but bw is literally awful and needs to be removed forever
[8:21 PM] levi: so i dont consider it so.
[8:30 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: in hindsight we should have left BW alone completely
[8:31 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: but oh well, we did what we did and we have to accept that.
[8:35 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: honestly I'm so tired of the 85% argument
[8:40 PM] levi: 85% is a pretty jarring amount, i don't see the issue with bringing it up
[8:47 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: because it's tournament usage which is always skewed in comparison to ladder usage?
[8:48 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: sure it's still high but when you consider tournament culture it's not really an important stat at all
[8:49 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I think the in-game interactions mean more than that number
[8:50 PM] levi: sure but you can only skew it so much when vulls got x2 usage on number 2 over a sample of 200+ lol
[9:29 PM] living so italian: anybody writing a post?
[9:29 PM] living so italian: I'll do it if no one else is but I really would prefer not to
[9:34 PM] levi: I’ll write 1 tmrw

---

There was some discussion on the state of how the council involves the opinions of the rest of the playerbase, so I'd like to briefly touch upon that as well. These are just my own thoughts and NOT representative of Quote or the council.
When it comes to tiering matters, the council functions as an extension of the tier leaders - we select council members so that we don't have to decide every tiering decision on our own. I strongly believe that an LC council should exist in some form, because a post-OP tier leading duo cannot be perfect. Ideally, the council represents the entire LC playerbase when it comes to tiering decisions; however, my impression is that the majority of active LC players believe that Vullaby warrants a suspect. This may just be because pro-suspect users being much more vocal than anti-suspect users, but I see no reason as to why this should be the case.

So a) I want a council, and b) I want it to fairly represent the LC community, except there is no reasonable + objective way to define the "community" here. I consider the groups of users that need representation to be firstly the active and involved contributors in the LC/MDL discord and on the forums, closely followed by the general Smogon playerbase that is only interested in participating in LC tours, and in a distant third the non-contributing ladderers; but I can't draw a hard line for any these user groups (outside of something absurdly inclusive, like everyone who has posted in the LC discord + has played a game of LC). I've got some quick ideas - note that every current council member would be qualified either way, as they have all frequently involved themselves in suspect discussions + the majority of them are universally ranked among the strongest LCers.

1. I like to push for much larger and more flexible councils than our current one, just on the grounds of having more and varied users being able to give their input. This has been met with resistance because a smaller council has its advantages as well, most notably by leaving less room for personal biases. The LC council is currently hand-picked by the tier leaders (admittedly most of them were added before I became tier leader), which of course leaves a lot of room for subjectivity; but by setting the bar so high for both quantity and quality of metagame experience/involvement in tiering discussions, we can reasonably limit the pool to a select few players. There are only a couple other users in serious consideration.

2. Right now, council members decide the suspects but vote as a regular suspect participant would. Blarajan had a system of having suspect participants decide the suspects and a rotating council actually make the vote, which I thought was pretty neat; having reqs decide both the topic of the suspect and the vote would reduce the subjectivity to what the reqs would be. However, my understanding is that SS reasonably isn't fond of a drastically different suspect system from every other tier. Also, we'd probably want to introduce extra subjectivity anyways by limiting the rotating council to users we believe are genuinely invested in LC in terms of contributions/interest.

e: put this in hides bc it looked like the focal pt of the post instead of a side note



tl;dr council member positions are as follows:
Corporal Levi - pro-suspect; pro-ban; the metagame isn't great, and banning vullaby would most likely improve it.
Ninjadog13 - pro-suspect; pro-ban; the meta isn't great, and banning vullaby would most likely improve it.
tazz - pro-suspect; anti-ban; the metagame is fine, though banning vullaby could improve it.
Coconut - anti-suspect; the metagame is fine, and banning vullaby would destabilize it.
fatty - anti-suspect; the metagame is fine, and banning vullaby would destabilize it.
Quote - anti-suspect; the metagame is fine, and banning vullaby would destabilize it.
Star - anti-suspect; the metagame is fine, and banning vullaby would destabilize it.
Kingler12345 - anti-suspect; the metagame is fine, and freeing trapinch would most likely improve it.
Shrug - anti-suspect; the metagame isn't great, and freeing trapinch would most likely improve it.

Frustrations with the council's stance aside, I think discussion both this thread and on discord has been fantastic so far. Keep up the great work, and keep it heated (just don't make it personal)!
 
Last edited:
Something that I've seen posted a few times in the past couple of weeks and was also mentioned several times in the council discord logs is the idea that the community shouldn't be/can't be trusted with this vote, and is why Vullaby can't even be suspected, since the anti ban side of council equates a vullaby suspect as a vullaby ban. This goes against the principles of which Smogon is built upon. If the council doesn't have faith in the playerbase to reach the "correct" tiering decision, then why do suspects exist at all in LC? Since the council clearly knows what is best for the playerbase, and not the actual playerbase itself. I'm not entirely opposed to a dictatorship, but a dictatorship should result in a balanced tier, similar to XY UU run by Kokoloko, not a tier that the council claims is held together by an 85% usage pokemon. I do feel like it's a bad look for the council to be bashing all of the non council LC playerbase in their ability to form their own opinions about Vullaby during a potential suspect test.

I was curious to see what the pool of voters looked like for the Trapinch suspect test, one of the more "controversial" suspects, seeing as there are multiple opponents of the ban currently residing on the council. There were a total of 32 voters for the suspect test and I sorted them into an initial group of people I considered LC mains (fairly subjective in some ways I suppose, but it would be difficult to argue that these players don't primarily play LC). This initial group was already 25 of the 32 voters, which is 78% of the vote already. After that, I looked at the voters who weren't considered LC mains to see if they signed up/played in LCPL. This added another 5 users to the voterbase of active LC players. Now we're at 30 of 32 people who either participated in LCPL or spend a majority of their time playing LC.

So, what conclusions are there to draw from this? 30 of the 32 voters in the Trapinch suspect test have a reasonable dedication to LC, either through LCPL or other tournaments, in addition to the actual process of getting the reqs to vote in the suspect test. 94% of the voters having a good knowledge of LC through ladder, LCPL, and various other tours seems pretty reasonable to me. Why are we suddenly trying to claim that these people are not trustworthy and will vote "incorrectly" (even though almost everything tiering related is subjective in nature)? Another question worth asking is, who is a qualified voter for a suspect test? Should someone who went 9-0 in LCPL have a vote that is worth more than someone who went 0-9 in LCPL, but both got the reqs for the suspect? My answer to that question is no with some potential exceptions, but I believe some of the council may have other answers.

I believe that part of LC council has a very elitist attitudes towards themselves and think that their seat of power automatically makes their opinion more correct than other equally valid opinions from the lower class LC citizens, such as myself and plas. Who is to say that a small majority on the council should be able to silence the masses of individuals who believe that Vullaby should be considered for a suspect?
 
The three issues that are brought up the most are the potential of a destabilized metagame after Vullaby is gone, the lack of time (And snake giving us big tour representation would look bad with a bunch of confused mains in a fresh meta), and that they don’t trust the voters to make “the right choice”.

[11:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: everyone is so set in their ways that they don't bother talking about it and just vote
[11:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: which I think for vullaby is really not as clear-cut as people think
[11:28 PM] fatty: ye thats been my point vulla rly is a special case

[11:28 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: that's my fear with suspect
[11:29 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I'm not blocking it purely because I fear a ban
[11:29 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: it's because I fear an ignorant ban

[11:00 AM] starmaster: what the fuck is the point of the council
[11:01 AM] starmaster: that’s so fucking ludicrous
[11:01 AM] starmaster: 2/3rds of the council is against this shit
[11:01 AM] starmaster: wow
[11:04 AM] starmaster: this is like if ou decided to suspect magearna
[11:04 AM] starmaster: Just because the public has been yelling for it for a year
[11:04 AM] starmaster: wow I just have no fucking words if you push this through with 3/9 council supporting
[11:05 AM] starmaster: why does this channel even exist
[11:06 AM] starmaster: maybe 4/9 if you include fatty and tazz but fatty is just legit just bending to the public which is retarded
[11:06 AM] starmaster: no matter what it’s not a majority

[9:46 PM] ninja: i understand ppl being anti ban but i dont get why there is such opposition to even a suspect
[9:46 PM] ninja: given there is clearly a significant demand for it
[9:46 PM] ninja: the lack of faith in the community to carry out the suspect properly seems ridiculous to me
[9:46 PM] ninja: personally I think the LC community has voted correctly on every single vote in SM
[9:46 PM] ninja: and the only one that was super one sided was the pinch suspect
[9:47 PM] ninja: which as previously stated is entirely the fault of the anti-ban ppl for not posting anything

Addressing mainly Stars question here, your job is to make sure that when we vote for a suspect test our votes will actually be informed votes, unlike what you “fear”. Ffs your job is not to be a fucking dictatorship and decide what we’re supposed to enjoy playing, you’re supposed to be an authority voice within the community or as Levi put it, a council that represents the LC community. Denying the many voices requesting a suspect for Vullaby is NOT representing the community, it’s suppressing it. You let us have our fucking suspect, and then you make solid posts on why you think we should keep Vullaby.

[11:40 AM] starmaster: because 1. High usage isn’t equivalent to broken 2. It literally is the metagame and it’s too late to fix it no matter how optimistic you are
[11:41 AM] levi: i mean u were literally
[11:41 AM] levi: the biggest shaper of the meta last snake
[11:41 AM] levi: pre and post snake metas were hugely different, top level players having incentive to build every week
[11:41 AM] levi: makes a big difference
[11:41 AM] levi: so i don't agree w 2 at all

I think this addresses the time issue well enough. The lack of trust in us as a community to get a proper metagame that we can enjoy playing before the release of Sword/Shield shouldn’t be a deciding factor or even up to the 9 of you to decide, that’s on the entirety of the community whether or not we’re capable of doing so. So give us a suspect test and let us see if we feel ready or not.

Making Boombap Beats On AudacityToday at 3:00 AM
the importance of vullaby to the metagame cannot be overstated and a postvullaby meta cannot be theorized. particularly without trapinch, vullaby is the metagame in its entirety much like snorlax is gsc ou. a metagame designed on getting rid of or playing around a single pokemon feels like a train system designed around a city hub. if that city was inaccessible, there's no real way to predict how the other routes would reorganize

[11:25 PM] fatty: i think ur gonna get rid of a powerful mon but also get rid of a mon that helps check a plethora of mons and playstyles in the meta
[11:25 PM] fatty: i dont see the meta being fixed w/ this

[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Vullaby is the metagame
[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: It’s not a part of the metagame

[11:25 AM] living so italian: vullaby is integral to the metagame
[11:26 AM] levi: It’s integral to an unpopular and heavily centralized meta why is this a good thing

Again there’s Levi summing it up pretty well. If Vullaby really is that integral to the current metagame, then I’d argue that’s a pretty toxic mon to have in the metagame. Whether you like it or not is subjective, and feel free to vote based on that if you want to or no, but don’t deny everyone else a suspect just because you’re either afraid of a “destabilized metagame” or likes the current one. Shrug (Making Boombap Beats On Audacity) makes a pretty good point in my opinion in the first clip where he states that the coming metagame can not be theorized. While I believe it can to some degree, as many of us are pretty familiar with theorymonning, I do agree that we don’t know 100% how it’ll turn out. That does, however, mean that we don’t actually know how “destabilized” the metagame will become, or how long it’ll take to “fix”. While some users are afraid of the risk with having a suspect test, that is just a personal hunch or feeling and not an actual factual argument as we have no proof of how the metagame will turn out, and the potential out there for a fresh metagame with the current capable roster of LC mains leaves it as less of a risk and more of an opportunity for a fresh breath and a more varied metagame if you were to ask me.

But with that I’m countering speculations with speculations. Basically, we have no proof that the metagame will be unfixable with the time we have left before S/S, hence not a valid argument. 3 months, a major teamtour and a seasonals tour left before S/S (And LC Playoffs if we want to count that) leaves plenty of room to “fix” or explore a new meta. The argument that vullaby is too integral to the current metagame (But usage not mattering fsr) is again just opinion based. Certain council members seems to think this is a good thing. I personally think it’s a hugely negative thing. Again it is just a subjective idea of what a good metagame is, and hence not a relevant argument either. Finally, the lack of trust in the community really just shows how incapable they are of doing their jobs as council members (Not looking to get anyone specific with this, just a fucking heads up that if you’re incapoble of doing your job don’t argue that it’s other peoples fault. This also does not apply to everyone on the council, mainly those actually making the statement that the community will make informed votes and just banning without thinking it through. Make solid posts and have us think instead of denying us the opportunity).


[11:53 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the reason vullaby is a problem now to people is that their ideal meta is one where every mon has a mon you can switch in mostly fearlessly, and you should be allowed to go to it many times throughout the game. this is why we banned pinch and got to a meta where it was ok to bring in onix on vulla without the fear of a trap. but now that hp grass, a tech that was found in mid 2017, is back thats not viable so we must ban it

no. As one of these people I’ll explain below how wrong this bs statement is

[11:42 AM] starmaster: ofc it makes a difference but the fact is little cup has simply terrible hazard control outside of vull
[11:42 AM] starmaster: so matchup fishing nonsense is encouraged to a ridiculous degree


The only actual semi legit argument I could find reading through all of this. The problem with it is that it’s just based on the viable spinners/defoggers we have in the current metagame, but put in a fictional situation of how the metagame can turn out. Obviously we would have to adapt, and while I know Star has brought up how good Glare is on Snivy over Defog and I truly do agree with this, that does not make Snivy a bad remover. Furthermore we have other viable removers in Staryu, Rufflet and Archen, all of which are likely to get better with vullaby gone, and I can truly see Drilbur becoming somewhat relevant as a last resort spinner (or regular spinner in general even)! But then again, that is all theorymonning, which more or less this argument is too. So no.

So with no actual arguments against a ban, do we have any pro-ban arguments? Yes, unpredictability with too high consequences and overcentralizing.

First of all, Vullaby is versatile. We all know that. That itself is not an indication of being broken, that’s just good. However, the many roles it can perform depending on what you want for your team (Note want, not necessarily need) does become a bit difficult to play around when looking at the preview. While none of the relevant Vullaby sets are broken in themselves (Nasty Plot, Z Brave Bird Corebreaker, Spdef Support, Offensive Support and Scarf), the fact that it is in many cases almost impossible to deduce from preview what set it is and the fact that guessing the wrong set can be truly devastating to a team leaving it all to a guessing game is unhealthy. Corebreaker and Nasty Plot can both decimate teams if attempted to be dealt with the wrong way, so approaching it as a regular Support Vull can lose you the game in 8 turns. Similarly, approaching the defensive sets as an offensive breaker often leads to Vullaby getting too much room to play around, do its job and pivot around leaving the one guessing at a huge disadvantage. While some mons have the same ability to make a guessing game out of their sets from preview like Vullaby, no other pokemon does it to such an extreme degree with such extreme differences in outcomes and not on 85% of teams.

Which brings me to my next point, Vullaby being overcentralizing. That again is a clear indication of a mon being unhealthy, and while “usage isn’t everything”, 85% is unheard of in any gen after gen 2 (Don’t fucking bring up snorlax or some RBY bs). It’s come to the point where pokemon like Onix, otherwise garbage in the current meta with Fighting, Ground, Grass and Water types being everywhere and as good as they are, being the #1 Stealth Rocker simply because it’s the only actual check to Vullaby.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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As a TL I sympathize with the council trying to make what they see as the best call for the meta only for people to get mad that they don't see it as the right thing to do. I'm just wondering, why does it seem like the council is so strongly in disagreement with the other people posting here about how strong of a mon Vullaby is? Just from reading these logs I get the impression that at least a few of the anti-ban members don't find Vullaby to be close to an overpowering offensive threat, putting aside how it's necessary for meta stability. With my limited LC experience I fall far more in line with opinions posted by people like Zebra and dcae. No you don't need reliable consistent switchins to every mon over the full course of a match (I mean Vullaby is far from the only mon that you can't reliably switch into every time), but it seems like Vullaby's power level crosses a line from promoting skillfully reading an opponents team and finding good middleground plays to a meta where you can just lose if you guess wrong. I find it stupid enough to where I'd personally put aside any meta stability concerns and vote ban. Yet this doesn't seem to be a council concern. Am I just that much worse at LC? I mean yes, but I'd be interested to know why the "best" group of LC players sees playing around Vullaby as so much less of an issue. That didn't entirely get explored in the council logs besides a generic "people want anything that doesn't have mons that can 100% switch in safely multiple times banned" quote (accurate tbf) but I think an answer would go a long way towards me understanding the discrepancies here, and maybe it'd help some other people out too.
 

Coconut

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I don't have time to write up a bunch of stuff, but I will bring up a couple quick points to hopefully answer some questions and allow people to see my perspective. Let me empathize that it's my perspective, and not the opinion of the entire council.

I will be responding to the following posts in the tone of which they set generally. If they are respectful, I will attempt to do the same. If they throw caution to the wind, I will do the same. If they are generally just curious, I will hopefully try to answer their queries. This will remain constant even if I post again on this particular topic. Without further ado, let's begin.

I do feel like it's a bad look for the council to be bashing all of the non council LC playerbase in their ability to form their own opinions about Vullaby during a potential suspect test.
I don't know what you would consider to be bashing the tier, but maybe your definition of such is different from mine. I generally try to police the argument that because they're not on council, they must be bad. That's certainly not true, as there are a myriad of players that aren't on council who are very good players that are just missing one thing or another, or would be the "next man up". With that in mind, people have genuinely not given me a reason to trust them on this topic. When we open an actual suspect thread, we are seeking outside opinions in these threads. How many posts did those threads get? Maybe I am being a little down-trotting, but that genuinely scares me. And while posts in threads like these certainly help, a healthy debate does not take place in the place where we literally open for such a thing.
{block of numbers and suspects}
If you're going to pull out numbers, you need to be more analytical with your numbers. Don't just pick one suspect test, because in just about every suspect test there's going to be people—especially passionate council members—that disagree with the end result. Most votes that happen to come from people who don't play the metagame consistently happen to be "Ban" votes (about 70-75% of the time). I mean if you have the time, take a look at the OU suspects. They've rolled ban on just about everything this gen. The only thing that didn't flip ban was Dugtrio, because they banned AT immediately after instead. If OU, the least qualified set of voters, is always rolling ban, then this suggests a voterbase that is less qualified is more likely to vote ban. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a ban-happy voterbase, but my intention is to try and keep people as educated as possible to prevent change agents that aren't needed.
I believe that part of LC council has a very elitist attitudes towards themselves and think that their seat of power automatically makes their opinion more correct than other equally valid opinions from the lower class LC citizens, such as myself and plas. Who is to say that a small majority on the council should be able to silence the masses of individuals who believe that Vullaby should be considered for a suspect?
I don't think anyone on council is twiddling our fingers and thinking that everyone that isn't on council is invalid, but if they are, shame on them. My logs are a little light in this particular discussion (I've had an awfully busy summer), but if we really, truly care about a Vullaby suspect, in my logs there is a solution, that being to just do it when the metagame ends. While there is the claim that the metagame will not develop because people are not playing it consistently, removing the most essential mon from a metagame tends to do that. I am a supporter of changing metagames to suit the playerbase wants, i.e. BW LC, however I also support making the right decision in cases that seem open and shut. Vullaby has a clear hold as a glue in the metagame in the moment. It's the only reputable ground immunity, because Gastly sure isn't tanking hits, the far and away best defogger, best defensive pivot. Removing it would force an extreme change on the metagame, which the community as a whole, council included, has not shown me we would be able to adapt to in time for snake, or even potentially the end of the metagame.

I'll make this clear though, if you value your opinion to the point where it holds any value, make it known. Post about it. Because honestly, if you're not posting, it isn't as valuable as someone on council. I haven't seen a masses of individuals posting that they want this. I see a couple of users who I respect that have a different opinion from me.
you’re supposed to be an authority voice within the community or as Levi put it, a council that represents the LC community.
While I do agree that council members should represent the LC community, you act like he isn't being an authority voice in the community. How care you possibly suggest that he, (OR ANYONE ELSE ON COUNCIL) isn't acting to what he believes to be what is best for the community?
If Vullaby really is that integral to the current metagame, then I’d argue that’s a pretty toxic mon to have in the metagame. Whether you like it or not is subjective, and feel free to vote based on that if you want to or no, but don’t deny everyone else a suspect just because you’re either afraid of a “destabilized metagame” or likes the current one.
Points like this do nothing but scare me. Like I love you fille and you know this but I'm going to be extremely blunt. This is exactly what we don't want. Fille makes a point where he jumps from Vullaby being integral to toxic. Essentially he jumps a shark through a flaming ring of fire on a motorcycle while playing the kazoo. There are plenty of things that are integral to this, or any metagame, are we just going to assume those get banned too? This reads to me; if A is B, then A is also X. You're looking at it through a lens and attempting to see what you want to see. The worst part was though that despite calling claiming you would argue that it's toxic to the metagame, you rescind from doing so on the platform that allows you to do so. If you're going to mindlessly attack the people on council like so, you should check your own holes first.
Basically, we have no proof that the metagame will be unfixable with the time we have left before S/S, hence not a valid argument. 3 months, a major teamtour and a seasonals tour left before S/S (And LC Playoffs if we want to count that)
I like this point in particular, because it feigns an interest of time, but completely lacks the context for it. How much do you weigh snake into having a good showing? because I'm certain that if Vullaby was banned mid-tour that all of the pieces of the metagame would not magically align into an ideal metagame. I would even suggest that many of the top players for a different, vull-less metagame would not continue to be the top players, because I've seen how some of you build after a ban or metagame shift. Regardless, does snake have as much weight as that seasonal? How about the LC playoffs? Because frankly, I don't see us being ready for snake, which overlaps directly with the last LC ssnl. This would leave the invite-only tour across an entire year. I'll solidify this claim one more time, if it gets banned (which prior in the post I've shown to be more likely), we don't have enough time. We don't have enough time to build a metagame that is tournament ready.
{block of text}
no. As one of these people I’ll explain below how wrong this bs statement is
{block of text}
The only actual semi legit argument I could find reading through all of this.
{block of text}
So with no actual arguments against a ban, do we have any pro-ban arguments?
You're missing the point entirely. The council is not making arguments as to whether or not Vullaby should be banned. We're making arguments as to whether or not Vullaby should be suspected. We're obviously not listing our reasoning for that because the time does not call for this.
I'm just wondering, why does it seem like the council is so strongly in disagreement with the other people posting here about how strong of a mon Vullaby is?
To hopefully clear the air, if it was this time last year, I would be in support of a suspect. I would still be very anti-ban, but that would be more of an opinion, less of a need. From my perspective, I do not believe the metagame will develop into something competitive and playable before the end of the life-cycle for SM. The Sword/Shield leak could happen at any time, and we as a community would proceed to drop nearly everything about SM. The council does not, and is not saying that Vullaby is not a strong pokemon. The council has generally reached a consensus that we are out of time to make the most significant change to our metagame.

I hope this answers some questions for everyone, and I look forward to healthier discussion on the topic. I'm excited to read what people have to say and hope we get some faces that generally don't post as often!
 
This is going to be kind of a mess of a post, but I'd like to elaborate on my position that was hinted at a bit in those logs. Unfortunately I was on vacation during the time that many of these conversations were taking place, which is why I wasn't participating as much as I should have in those logs. I'm the only member that was anti-ban but pro-suspect, and I will explain here both sides of that position
1. On Vullaby
There were some comparisons earlier in this thread with the most dominant Pokemon during BW as they are the only Pokemon in LC metas (that are comparable, munchlax sees incredible usage but DPP is so distinct from other LC metas that comparison is shaky at best) that have ever matched Vullaby's level of usage in LC. Murkrow and Misdreavus as comparison is certainly not a vote in favor of keeping vullaby as both are pretty broken, but I think comparing Vullaby to these threats can often miss the role Vullaby plays in our metagame. Vullaby is far more diverse in the roles that it can fill than virtually any other Pokemon, and for that reason while I understand the impulse to try to draw comparisons to past policy I don't think that it is tenable in this particular instance.

Without a Pokemon to compare Vullaby with, I think we have to understand it as a very unique instance in order to understand why it is getting the usage of these broken Pokemon of the past. The explanation that a lot of people have already reached is the most obvious one: Vullaby is getting these levels of usage that you would expect from a broken Pokemon because it itself is broken. I understand this conclusion, and I think that us anti-ban people should approach this question with answering this question that the pro-ban people already have: why is Vullaby behaving in this meta like many of the broken mons in the past did?

Vullaby is in part so difficult to pin down because in order to fully capture its role in the metagame you have to consider all the roles it fills. This is why I think that the discussion of the particular set most people find broken, the Z mixaby set, has been insufficient thus far: the role of this set has to be understood in how it interacts with other sets, as definitionally by running this set you aren't running the others. I should clarify the set in particular that I'm mostly referring to: standard SpD vullaby. I would argue that this particular set is the main culprit in Vullaby's absurdly high usage rate, and the most important glue Pokemon in the tier. It performs several essential functions simultaneously that would normally require running multiple Pokemon to address sufficiently and allows you to run team builds that are far less restrictive. These roles are:
- Abra check
- Ground immunity/resist
- Spore absorber if overcoat
- Snivy check
- Fighting check
When building a team you're always to some degree checking off a list of threats you have to address either consciously or subconsciously, and no Pokemon can check off more on this list simultaneously than Vullaby. Vullaby is customizable to a greater degree than any other Pokemon, but usually this customization will make it lose out on one of these functions. Offensive berry juice vullaby cannot act as an effective abra check and cannot spore absorb, pure SpD sets that forego defense for speed lose out on effectively checking fighting types, etc. The physical Z set in particular misses out completely on 4 of these functions, and is only sub par at being a ground immunity as Z vullas usually end up being used early in the match to punch holes in the opposing team before dying.

If I want my vullaby to fulfill all these roles simultaneously so that I can be more diverse in the rest of my team selection, I'm going to opt for SpD vullaby, but if I end up having Pokemon that address these roles sufficiently I can customize my Vullaby to be more offensive, a bit faster, or whatever. What a lot of people don't realize about this process of building with Vullaby is that this process works in reverse just as well. I'll explain what I mean by this with some examples:
Example 1: Star vs Robjr in LCPL 8 Semifinals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7lc-447721
I think this is one instance that a lot of people would point to when talking about Z Mixaby being broken right now. I don't want to assume what star was thinking about the team he was up against, but if I was star in that situation I would be around 70% sure that the vullaby was Z Mixaby. Why? Lets go back to the list of functions that standard vullaby performs: abra is addressed by multiple 19 speeders and either scarf bray or scarf pawn, foongus and staryu together cover the need for a ground immunity somewhat, foongus acts as a spore absorber, foongus and ponyta act as both fighting checks and Snivy checks. A SpD vullaby on this team might make it somewhat safer against the likes of abra (even scarf pawniard has trouble checking abra to the degree that is necessary, typically for you to be adequately prepared for Abra you want either a diglett or a SpD vullaby in tandem with a scarfer), but for all of these other roles it would be redundant. Before the game has even begun, I'm looking with some degree of certainty at that vullaby as some sort of offensive set: perhaps full attack berry juice, Nasty Plot, scarf or Z-Mixaby. In this particular scenario I can go even further: It's probably not berry juice as the team has no need for defog, and it's probably not scarf because pawniard and mudbray run in tandem usually indicates a scarf on one of them. I think that, as those first turns would suggest, Star was able to sus out Z Vullaby based on the team and could successfully shuffle his Pokemon around to significantly diminish the damage to a team that is otherwise very weak to Z vullaby. Unfortunately his team had a negative matchup against the team accompanying Z vullaby in addition to Z vullaby itself, but if that was not the case he very well could have bought the game back.
Example 2:
Serene Grace vs Wabane in LCPL 8 Week 1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-898297292
This is probably the most well known Z Vullaby team, so lets see if this concept continues. Abra has trouble doing anything without breaking its sash and is checked by both Frillish and Ferroseed, There are no ground weaknesses on the team and the flying types with frillish should cover Mudbray pretty well, Ferroseed acts as a spore absorber, Frillish can dissuade fighting types from clicking their powerful STAB moves and snivy is covered by ferroseed and both flying types. This team hides its Z Vullaby a bit more effectively than the team above, as a lack of a fighting resist combined with there being 2 flying types on the team would usually suggest berry juice defog Vullaby. Still, you can sus out the possibility through this method effectively a significant portion of the time.

I acknowledge that sometimes the set really can be ambiguous, but I think that the complete guessing game that people describe to justify banning vullaby is somewhat overblown. There are also a lot of things you can do at the team building stage to ensure that your team can effectively exploit common weaknesses of teams that utilize offensive sets that people think of as broken. For examples of this we should again go back to the 5 essential functions that standard vullaby fulfills on most teams: A team with Z vullaby is very likely to have a bad matchup against fighting types that have ways to get past primary checks (u-turn into Z eq for mareanie + z vulla teams, for example), as normally a team using standard vullaby could use Vullaby as a secondary check to these powerful fighters thus avoiding putting their primary stop in danger. Mudbray also serves as a fantastic limiter for Z vullaby, as matchups against offensive mudbrays get much worse once the vullaby is gone. The others will vary depending on what Z vull is paired with but speaking as someone who builds with Z vull very frequently it is near impossible to compensate fully for the hole standard vullaby leaves.

TL;DR From what I have seen Z vullaby is seen as the main set people charge with brokenness, but because teams that are using Z vullaby cannot use berry juice vullaby they have to compensate for all the mandatory roles that defensive vullaby usually compresses into a single role. This compensation allows you to sus out offensive vullabys more often than not and often fails at ensuring a positive MU against many of the Pokemon that defensive vullaby would usually cover.

2. A Metagame Without Vullaby
I think the primary reason that many my fellow council members are so passionate about keeping vullaby is not so much due to it not being broken in their eyes (though that is certainly the case in most of their eyes) but more for fear of what a metagame without vullaby might look like, especially what a metagame without vull in the most important tournament of the year for us would look like.

Most LC players right now would tell you that unless you're running cheese you will disadvantage yourself if you do not use Vullaby on every team. This statement (a fairly accurate one, in my eyes) is seen as an argument for vull being removed for some, but for many of us on the council interested in ensuring a stable meta at the end of a generation it is an argument against it. I think to see why some interpretation of the argument is needed: I think the way that a lot of pro-ban people treat this statement is it referring to the offensive threat that vullaby exerts on every team, but when I say it am referring just as much to this as I am to the defensive role it plays on every team. The role of vullaby has filled for this entire generation as a secondary check to some of the most powerful offensive Pokemon in the metagame cannot be understated, and its removal would free up these offensive Pokemon to destabilize the meta in ways we really can't even predict.

I know that it is against policy to theorymon about what threats will become broken following the ban of a Pokemon and then use those theoretically broken Pokemon to justify keeping the mon being suspected, but I feel forced by responsibility and reality to do this to some degree. We are talking about banning what is arguably the most important defensive Pokemon in the metagame two months before the end of the generation, and we need to consider the endgame now, as this will very likely be our very last suspect that we have time for. Is this meta really so bad to risk fucking it up 2 months before its conclusion? I can see people disliking the overcentralizing presence of vullaby, but that concern in itself admits how integral vullaby is to our understanding of the entire LC meta. If you remove the Pokemon that the meta has been centering around for years, to expect the metagame to just magically stabilize in a short period of time is absurd.

As if the time restriction of 2 months isn't enough, if we did carry out this suspect it would be in the middle of the most important tournament of the year for LC. I know that a lot of LC players don't like to talk about the tournament status of LC, especially on forums, but I think we really need to be real with ourselves so that we understand what this ban entails. How the 10 LC snake players perform, whoever they are, effects everyone, not just the people playing. This is far and away largest opportunity of the year for LC exposure, both good and bad, and if we look like shit do you really think that the people who want to see LC taken out of team tournaments won't point it out? We're already out of SPL (once all the usage based metas are released), and we frankly don't have the luxury that some other lower tiers have of never realistically having to worry about losing tournament representation. It isn't fair, but it is what it is.

When I've bought this reality up to some of of the most pro ban people, they typically have two responses. Either we shouldn't care about tournament representation (which, if that is really your argument, is not going to ever come close to mildly convincing a single council member), or they argue that the risk of LC looking bad is actually lower if we ban Vullaby, as outsiders see Vullaby as currently breaking the tier. I think this argument was much more viable a couple weeks ago when we first started to have these conversations about Vullaby, but I am very skeptical of this argument now as when it was first made the implication was that we would make this happen before snake. It is possible that some might see Vullaby as completely broken based on its usage, but based on all the talk I've seen from tournament players in open this sentiment is not universal. I saw most of the usual complaints about LC (speed ties, rolls, the usual stuff that is far from anything new), but I really don't think that outsiders will know enough about LC to form a lot of the opinions you all have about vullaby. The meta might look stale and overcentralized, sure, but 10 players who know exactly what they're doing playing in a stale overcentralized meta is less likely to be embarrassing than 10 players basically being forced to figure out a meta on the spot.

If we were going to do a suspect, I wanted to do it months ago for fear of this, but obviously that ship has sailed. If the community absolutely demands that Vullaby is suspected then I wouldn't be surprised if the council can be coaxed into a suspect as snake has ended, but as is many of us feel a responsibility to avoid as much as possible the risk of a bad snake.

3. On the Role of the Council
Despite my personal feelings on the topic, I don't feel that I'm in any position to stop what is clear and loud outcry for a suspect of Vullaby, no matter how awful an idea I believe it to be. I will continue to try to convince people to put off this suspect, but if a vote does come I will vote for it. This is how I see the role of the council, primarily as representatives of the community most important in scheduling suspects and leading discussion on them rather than deciding what is and is not suspected, but I don't agree with the vilification of much of the council in this thread. I urge everyone here to try to see this from our perspective: you're telling us that it is a good idea to ban the most central Pokemon to our metagame (the most central a mon has been essentially since misdreavus in BW) in the middle of a tour we need to look good in two months before the the next generation is released. I'm not going to stand in the way of you, but try to understand the conflict of wanting what is best for the tier (in terms of our representation, reputation and metagame) and listening to the community that a lot of them feel currently.
 
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A lot of the points I wanted to address have already been addressed, but there were certain parts of Zebra's post I wanted to respond to:

Something that I've seen posted a few times in the past couple of weeks and was also mentioned several times in the council discord logs is the idea that the community shouldn't be/can't be trusted with this vote, and is why Vullaby can't even be suspected, since the anti ban side of council equates a vullaby suspect as a vullaby ban. This goes against the principles of which Smogon is built upon. If the council doesn't have faith in the playerbase to reach the "correct" tiering decision, then why do suspects exist at all in LC? Since the council clearly knows what is best for the playerbase, and not the actual playerbase itself. I'm not entirely opposed to a dictatorship, but a dictatorship should result in a balanced tier, similar to XY UU run by Kokoloko, not a tier that the council claims is held together by an 85% usage pokemon. I do feel like it's a bad look for the council to be bashing all of the non council LC playerbase in their ability to form their own opinions about Vullaby during a potential suspect test.
The bolded part in particular I think is kind of problematic; LC has been incredibly centralized for years now. Mienfoo has had sub 50% usage since basically the beginning of the gen in big tournaments (it had 71% usage in snake 2, the most recent official team tournament with LC), and there's always a group of 5 to 10 Pokemon that see far greater usage than the rest, yet no one complains about them. The point is that usage doesn't mean everything, and extreme centralization isn't always necessarily bad. In fact, various metagames that are highly regarded are highly centralized, due to the fact that games are less likely to be decided by matchup. The fact that almost every team has a vullaby doesn't automatically make the tier not "balanced."

I believe that part of LC council has a very elitist attitudes towards themselves and think that their seat of power automatically makes their opinion more correct than other equally valid opinions from the lower class LC citizens, such as myself and plas. Who is to say that a small majority on the council should be able to silence the masses of individuals who believe that Vullaby should be considered for a suspect?
I think a position of power makes your opinion more relevant, yes; you're more likely to influence others and your voice counts in terms of decisions in what to suspect and council votes. I feel like part of the council's role is to veto suspects that it thinks is bad for the metagame. There seems to be this idea that the council is this one hivemind, which I disagree with. For some perspective on how many people it takes to influence a vote, take the trapinch suspect. Only 25 people voted in that one, which means that as little as 15 people could completely swing the vote. MDL itself has an active userbase of far more than that. Having 10 people suddenly decide something is broken can change the tier completely; I'm not saying this happens, but just giving an example of why it's important that council exists as a check. The thing about a community like LC is that it can succumb to a new wave which becomes groupthink (for example, Trapinch went from niche to good to broken within the span of a month). It's important for council members to voice their own take on the metagame rather than just bending to public opinion, and having some separation in that regard helps for perspective.

Levi also pretty much has my position on Vullaby, so I don't think I need to add much there. If people have more points of discussion, feel free to bring it up. I think it's probably more productive than complaining about council.
 

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