Metagame Metagame Discussion

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
From my point of view, Gastly is a very important reason why the meta is overcentralized. Mienfoo and Vullaby are nearly mandatory on most good teams, in part because they're just that good into everything else too, but also in part because they're the only pivots that can both threaten all common Gastly sets (if tera isn't used) in a 1v1 when they're healthy, and be reliably good into the rest of the meta, unlike both Zorua and Elekid. Voltorb-hisui can also chip Gastly, but only if the Gastly is properly scouted to not be Choice Scarf. Gastly doesn't usually force otherwise bad Pokemon to be used, but it does make it much more difficult to use Pokemon such as Mareanie, Snubbull, Timburr, and Wattrel, limiting what types of teams can be effective into the meta. Other threats such as aforementioned Mienfoo and Vullaby, as well as Growlithe-Hisui and Shellder are also major pieces that limit team diversity, which is why this meta isn't as diverse as prior svlc metas. I support tiering action, even though there isn't a clear target that is near indisputably broken.


most teams boil down to Mienfoo + Vullaby + Vullaby switch in + 2 speed control/breaker slots, plus 1 of either another pivot, endgame wincon such as Shellder, or dedicated Mienfoo switch in. This format can be deviated from, but its difficult to make consistent and rarely has a distinct enough upside to be worth trying to do it. Hyper Offense can also be tried, but its generally inconsistent. There isn't a lot of room for creativity with which Pokemon you will use to glue a team together, especially as you must cover other threats such as Growlithe and Gastly with those slots too.
 

Kipkluif

Liever Kips leverworst
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
Enough has been said about Gastly, there seems to be a sufficient sentiment for a suspect in my eyes, but that decision is not up to me. However, I would like to point out that LC Open is starting later this month (according to the tournament schedule), and it would probably be good to get action on it out of the way before that starts.
 
I support a gastly suspect purely because it means that gimmighoul roaming would be given an opportunity to shine. It has the same speed stat as gastly, slightly better bulk, decent special attack and nasty plot to boost its special attack to high heaven. Does have a piss poor movepool, but I've still had success with it.
 
So since gastly is banned, I'd like to talk about another ghost type that can fill its shoes a bit (you may have heard about it from me a bit).
:sv/gimmighoul roaming:
Gimmighoul is a mon that has a lot of impressive traits in the meta and can do similarish things that gastly did. The main thing is that it has the same speed stat as gastly and slightly higher bulk, which means eviolite sets are better on it. Now of course, it does have a basically non existent movepool and much lower offenses, but it can still pull through most of the time.
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Oran Berry
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Thief
This is the main moveset that works on gimmighoul for me. Firstly, you nasty plot up in order to raise your offenses and most likely the opponent will be hitting you and unless its super effective, which due to mono ghost typing it should be most of the time, you will survive the hit and get oran berry recovery (wish we had berry juice). Then, you can steal the item of your opponent, which will most likely be eviolite, permanently crippling your opponent while giving yourself a great item. From here, you can fire off powerful attacks that can do a lot of damage. For reference, a +2 shadow ball has a 6.3% chance to ko mienfoo. Not the most powerful, but with chip and a potential tera, it can work.
You can probably also try scarf, specs, LO or eviolite variants if this set doesn't work. I'll drop some sample sets for others to try out (due to the lacklustre movepool, a lot of them are similar)
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Night Shade
- Tera Blast
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Choice Specs
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Night Shade
- Tera Blast
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Life Orb
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Eviolite
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast
 
So since gastly is banned, I'd like to talk about another ghost type that can fill its shoes a bit (you may have heard about it from me a bit).
:sv/gimmighoul roaming:
Gimmighoul is a mon that has a lot of impressive traits in the meta and can do similarish things that gastly did. The main thing is that it has the same speed stat as gastly and slightly higher bulk, which means eviolite sets are better on it. Now of course, it does have a basically non existent movepool and much lower offenses, but it can still pull through most of the time.
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Oran Berry
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Thief
This is the main moveset that works on gimmighoul for me. Firstly, you nasty plot up in order to raise your offenses and most likely the opponent will be hitting you and unless its super effective, which due to mono ghost typing it should be most of the time, you will survive the hit and get oran berry recovery (wish we had berry juice). Then, you can steal the item of your opponent, which will most likely be eviolite, permanently crippling your opponent while giving yourself a great item. From here, you can fire off powerful attacks that can do a lot of damage. For reference, a +2 shadow ball has a 6.3% chance to ko mienfoo. Not the most powerful, but with chip and a potential tera, it can work.
You can probably also try scarf, specs, LO or eviolite variants if this set doesn't work. I'll drop some sample sets for others to try out (due to the lacklustre movepool, a lot of them are similar)
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Night Shade
- Tera Blast
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Choice Specs
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Night Shade
- Tera Blast
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Life Orb
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast
Gimmighoul-Roaming @ Eviolite
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Power Gem
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast
See, this is interesting to me. The main use of Gimmighoul I’ve seen is Rattled shenanigans in its chest form, which still doesn’t get it fast enough to outspeed any meta threats in most cases and usually ends up setting up one NP and dying.
With 196 Spe and a positive nature it hits 18 speed, which is faster than max speed Zorua-H at 17 and so could have a niche as a faster ghost.
However, ghost types are…not super important in this meta? While they’re nice to have and have a good STAB attacking type, Gastly was good for other reasons besides its typing. Spin-blocking isn’t as big of a deal and knock off is everywhere, unlike evolved formats. They do, however, block common priority such as Foo Fake Out and Magby Mach Punch, but usually ghost tera on a sweeper like Shellder is used to achieve this.
Ghost STAB is also rather spammable and a max investment neutral nature SpAtk stat of 17 is not bad at all in combination with Shadow Ball.
I see the merits of this mon on paper by itself, but what keeps me from being sold on it is…why would I put this on a team?
LC teams have slot syndrome as it is. If a team needs a Ghost I usually would want to put Zorua-H, who not only is immune to Ghost instead of weak to it but also has an actual ability and a movepool.
I understand you like the mon, and it doesn’t seem instantly unviable, but it’s predicability (it can really only run four moves), mono-typing, weakness to Knock Off and Vullaby, etc hold it back. I’m curious: What does it do on a team? What teams have you built with Gimmighoul-R?
 
Question, why is Stench not banned in Little Cup? Came across a Stunky that flinched me with knock off, and I thought that would be banned as it is in other metagames.
I'd assume it's the same reason that (iirc) evasion abilities aren't banned. Flinch-hax isn't a prevalent enough "strategy" in Little Cup for Stench to receive tiering action over other, more high-priority and usage threats (such as the recent Gastly ban).
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
Today i wanna talk about a mon i think deserves a chance, and most of you might already know:
:aipom::aipom::aipom:
Currently, Aipom is on the LC banlist. I do think that should change, not now necessarily, but whenever.
Aipom got banned the moment it dropped with DLC 1. At that time, SCL was right about to start, and the LC council decided that it was best for the sake of the tier and the tournament to not allow it, as it was a mystery if it would be broken or not, and that metagame was only gonna last for the duration of the tournament anyway. I do support that decision, and I understand what happened after and is probably gonna happen after this anyway.
For more context, Aipom has always been a fine Pokémon (A- in DPP, B- in BW and B2 in the unofficial ORAS VR) in the LC metagame, at least up until it got Tail Slap in USM. That allegedly broke it (i never played that metagame), and it got quickbanned and from what i'm told it was the most stupid thing there has ever been.
This is a Pokémon with 19 speed, which makes it the second fastest in the metagame, only behind Voltorb and tied with Diglett-Alola. That, coupled with a multihit stab and a good movepool, makes it very scary at first glance. However, in my opinion, there are many factors that would actually make it a very balanced mon.
For starters, while Fury swipes is an okay move, it is NOT Tail slap. Tail slap absolutely broke this mon, but Fury swipes just never has. Historically, this Pokémon has never been that much of a menace. I know, different metagames and all of that, but really, we have been able to deal with this thing pretty effectively, even without actually wanting to, with the same mons pool basically. Things like being unable to OHKO Mienfoo and Foongus, faster mons (as it is very frail), trapping, Intimidate and priority have always been good enough to keep it in check, and SV LC does not lack in these resources.
Furthermore, we have new, very good stuff that deals with it very effectively. Glimmet, Growlithe-Hisui, Voltorb-Hisui, Tinkatink and Mudbray being as good as it is are very potent forms of counterplay.
I also think this mon would suffer from a 4MSS if it was freed. Obviously Fury Swipes, Fake out and Knock off are a given, but you probably would want all of U-turn, Grass knot, Brick break and Fire punch. Without them, it would always get checked by something on the opposing team. This is not to say you can't alleviate this issue with your teammates, but i do think its something to consider.
It also would have to deal with massive Life orb recoil and Stealth rock weakness which make it much frailer than it actually is, and more easily revenege killed by stuff like Sucker punch, Voltorb and scarfers like Growlithe or Gothita.
It would obviously have its strengths, being the 2nd fastest mon in the tier and having Fake out, U-turn and Knock off give it massive utility, but not to the point where it would shred teams like it allegedly would. It would also have to deal with Fury swipes' terrible accuracy, and the fact that it would get paralyzed on a game to game basis by Voltorb's Static.
Lastly, i wanna address the elephant in the room: Tera Normal Aipom is supposed to have massive damage output. Sure, it probably OHKOes half the tier i dont deny that. But having to waste your tera to normal STAB in each given game to actually break doesn't seem that game breaking to me. Losing the ability to tera defensively is a massive hinderance, and relying on a STAB tera would just make offensive counterplay much more reliable, while admittedly making defensive counterplay pretty limited.
:aipom::aipom::aipom:
TL;DR Aipom deserves a chance. Not saying now, not saying before, but at some point. I think this mon is unjustly banned from when we actually thought it would get Tail slap, and it has no reason to stay like this. However, I'm not saying "the council is doing a terrible job" or "the tier leaders just dont listen to the playerbase". This tier has been well handed pretty quickly this time around, and I would understand it if there was "no need" of an Aipom suspect test rn. However I, and many others actually, really think it deserves a chance eventually. Also, I'd love it if this sparked some support or even discussion, as I'm actually curious as to whether or not I'm just crazy lol
 

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