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Metagame Metagame Discussion

Bub said:
it does not make sense to rush that change before SCL. I think immediately after finals or even like during semis so it won’t affect finals we could test mienfoo
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i wanna add my two cents here. genuinely who cares about scl? its 10 people playing a game a week, let them be our test subjects. this mindset of waiting until the next tour is over is killing suspects. if this ban mienfoo trend started exactly three months ago, youd be saying to wait for lcpl to end. are our tournaments that sacred and immovable? arent they the best test subjects? i do not see whats wrong with banning stuff in the middle of a tour, let alone before it begins
 
The entire metagame is built around mienfoo i think banning it shouldve happened a long time ago. Now that we are this far into the gen, why ban it now? You would uproot the entire balance that we took time to develop. I think trappers are more broken than foo anyway. Thanks
 
Éric said:
i wanna add my two cents here. genuinely who cares about scl? its 10 people playing a game a week, let them be our test subjects. this mindset of waiting until the next tour is over is killing suspects. if this ban mienfoo trend started exactly three months ago, youd be saying to wait for lcpl to end. are our tournaments that sacred and immovable? arent they the best test subjects? i do not see whats wrong with banning stuff in the middle of a tour, let alone before it begins
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Whether or not you care about suspects around tournaments doesn’t matter. The fact is people do. All you would do rushing a suspect now is split the ban vote between people that want it banned and people that want it banned but not before SCL. That doesn’t really make sense. I also don’t think it makes sense to use a tournament as big as SCL as a testing ground for a ban that will fundamentally change how the tier is played. We had our suspect before LCPL and it was very rushed and not well thought out. The time between LCPL ending and SCL starting is much shorter than the time between LCCL and LCPL as well. Just do the suspect at the end of SCL and if it bleeds into another tour atp whatever it’s chill.
 
the best time for a suspect test is now, and I believe Mienfoo is the target. This talk is just an endless cycle of "X tour is coming up we should wait till after" there is always another tour coming and I do not like the argument that somehow that means a suspect shouldn't be held. SCL is supposed to be the best of the best, and I think there is no greater time to try out what a Mienfoo-less metagame then during then. I don't see how "SCL as a testing ground for a ban" is somehow a bad thing or lacks sense, if the ban happens then we just move forward and SCL is the first step in that. If meta developments happens afterwards then great thats also fine. This could be the first step towards a tier and more people are satisfied with and I think waiting 11 weeks or more for no reason other than people could be upset they have to play an unexplored meta is flawed reasoning.
 
IMO Archetype tier list. Some of these are sub archetypes and encompass other entrys
1000001331.png

:mienfoo:- regen balance - consists of mienfoo + a regen poison. Its top tier because of regens proclivity to soak damage and it allows mienfoo and the regen poison to achieve upwards of 300%+ value)
:toedscool:- TTM - Tinkatink Toedscool Mareanie. Has defensive answers to most of the metagame. Toedscool is the mascot because it has the most versatility in moveset with spikes dgleam spore knock.
:foongus:- Foongus + mudbray - Foongus is the premier poison type with grass typing, spore is broken. Mudbray is the premier rocker and can trade with almost everything.
:tinkatink:- Tinkatink + Foongus + Chinchou - this core excels at pivoting against the metagame.
:gothita:- Goth teams - Trapping is broken, goth is the better trapper
:trapinch:- Trapinch and double trap teams - Trapinch is goated at enabling vullaby and doduo.
:mareanie:- Mare teams without tink and toed. Generally requires sleep support like sleep talk or safety goggles.
:mudbray:- Rest bray teams - Typically includes another rocker. Good into slower paced teams.
:diglett-alola:- Ground spam - Mudbray + diglett-a. Usually has foongus + shrew/chou
:growlithe-hisui:- Dog teams - Weak to rocks, tera water and scarf mienfoo. Excels at breaking against most structures
:elekid:- Electric spam - Elekid + chinchou. Typically has foongus for the ground mu
:larvesta:- Larv teams - Larv has a special place in my heart. Good into foongus teams. Usually has gothita.
:pineco:- Spikestack - Spikes are really good but the spikers are mid. You are usually weak to vullaby running spikes.
:wingull:- Wingull teams - Wingull is inconsistent but strong into most of the metagame.
:numel:- Numel teams - Numel is cheese with teeth. Stockpile body press is a menace.
:zorua-hisui:- Horua + Vullaby + Tinkatink - Has great mindgames in just that core.
:snover:- Snow teams - A matchup fish but a deadly one
:chespin:- Chespin teams - A foongus matchup fish. Spikes are good but chespin is bad.
:glimmet:- Toxic spikes - Almost every team has a poison type so tspikes are generally a bad gameplan.
:crabrawler:- Fightspam - Mienfoo + another fighter. Sometimes has gothita.
:drifloon:- Drifloon HO - Drifloon has a deep bag of tricks and can sometimes win games. Generally considered bad tho. Try grassy seed calm mind.
:Horsea:- Rain - Owned by tera water.
:impidimp:- Non-numel screens - Typically cheese and not very good cheese
:Bulbasaur:- Sun - the worst weather
 
I think some people are missing the “test” part of a suspect test. There is no downside to testing foo because if people want to keep it, they can vote to do just that. Not every suspect has to be a kangaroo court like Torchic where everyone knows what the result will be already and the whole point is just to farm TC progress.

I think it is clear at this point that the meta-game is very divisive and a lot of popular support does exist for a Mienfoo test (see, this thread). I can tell you from experience that the players who know what they’re doing enough to be in SCL are gonna be able to quickly understand and adapt to a new meta, and in fact it’ll reward building skill. Last time this happened was 3 years ago when a DLC had just dropped and me and Eric were playing on the foxes, and not only was it pretty easy to find out what was good, it was also a lot of fun to use stuff like Fidough, Boots Vull, Ability Shield Goth, Timburr, Geodude-Alola, Koffing etc in a metagame that was a lot more loose and experimental than what we have now.

tl:dr put the rodent on trial
 
Drifting said:
I think some people are missing the “test” part of a suspect test. There is no downside to testing foo because if people want to keep it, they can vote to do just that. Not every suspect has to be a kangaroo court like Torchic where everyone knows what the result will be already and the whole point is just to farm TC progress.
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Kangaroo court mentioned!

Going to keep it brief, I don't think foo needs to be banned but if people want a suspect I support it.
 
LilyAC said:
i agree with you there, but banning foo would make games even MORE flowcharty

this is because foo is a very flexible pokemon. In game, the best way to use it is never obvious. It can soft check lots of different things, so you have to decide when exactly is the best time to bring it in, what are the best things to trade it with or save it for, etc. There are often non-obvious paths where you can regen it up, or use it to pivot another pokemon in. lots of possibilities

in other words, using foo optimally is a difficult thing to master and that makes games more interesting to play; it allows for more skill expression and you get rewarded for playing it well.

most other pokemon are easier to use because they have a more clear purpose. for example, it’s usually obvious that you want to use mudbray as your vullaby counter (and this is what causes games to feel “flowcharty”)

back in SS, we banned vullaby which, like foo, is also a very flexible pokemon. This caused games to become more linear, and that’s a big reason why we had to revert the ban. There’s a good chance that banning foo would have a similar effect in SV
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very succinct, good post on why i think a foo ban is misguided. i don't really care about the timing in the tournament calendar (reggg and eric are correct in that if you play scl you can should be able to adapt to playing without mienfoo) but it does reek a lot of late-in-the-gen suspecting the glue to the entire tier (and we should mention this is the deepest we have been in a current generation for a while). dcae brought up that sub SD foo is sort of broken because of the set variance, but those sets expose themselves immediately on lead often. if you don't lead it that alone is a tell that a good player might have in the back of their head.

i don't see mienfoo as a broken pokemon in SV (and for that matter this is not a new discussion and it doesn't feel incredibly different to me from other gens), the hypothetical metagame without it ("improvement") is probably going to be more linear and not less because losing the main pivot that can extend games and create different lines is gone.

even if it's just a test it's incumbent on people who want a mienfoo suspect to say why, not on the people against for why there shouldn't be a test @ drifting's point of there being "no downside" to the test
 
Kingler said:
even if it's just a test it's incumbent on people who want a mienfoo suspect to say why, not on the people against for why there shouldn't be a test @ drifting's point of there being "no downside" to the test
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The "why" I feel has been made obvious by others in the thread. The metagame is, by the opinion of many, low-quality, people only use a very small amount of Pokemon (even by LC standards as Fille pointed out) leading to frequent pseudo-mirrors (with mirror matches being uncompetitive for a wide variety of reasons that include but are not limited to dumbing down gameplay, creating more speed-ties and perhaps most annoyingly, increasing the impact of RNG). And at the center of it is Mienfoo, who is on every single team and whos play patterns are repetitive and have an impact that can be felt throughout every single battle. Mienfoo has been a great pokemon since its introduction of course, but it has never been this suffocating on the meta. Some pokemon that have been used to counter Mienfoo in the past like Morelull and Abra no longer exist, or like Koffing and Larvesta have been completely invalidated including by Mienfoo itself with Stone Edge being so common. Tera defensively lets it flip on any would be counter, often resulting in that counter getting knocked out and Foo undoing any progress made with Regenerator, or alternatively can be used offensively with Tera-Steel to set-up on the few pokemon that counter it (which have to be used on every single team, further adding to the centralisation and lack of builder freedom in the meta), instantly cheesing wins with terrifying efficiency (85% winrate this LCPL apparently which is just nauseating).

Being glue to a meta is one thing but the amount of tangible impact Mienfoo and what it enforces in the builder and its play patterns and its place in the meta and with tera are at a point where it is toxic for the metagame in my opinion and where I would heavily recommend testing it ASAP. I think people forget due to previous LC gens (Stockholm Syndrome perhaps?) that a Pokemon being 100% usage is not normal and is 99% of the time indicative of a major structural problem in the metagame, even back when SS was CG for example Foo was always a Pokemon that felt borderline, and that was a metagame where it had legit alternatives (e.g. Timburr). It only takes slight shifts in power for that border to be crossed.

Also, while we're at it can we quickdrop Aipom already? It's only banned because people were fearmongering about Mincinno and we all saw how that went, the mon will surely be fine and hopefully a positive offensive force for building, especially if Foo goes a fast U-turn guy would be appreciated.
 
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I don't think Mienfoo is broken. This is mostly based on my own experience, but I've never found it to be problematic. If anything, I think it's healthy for the metagame because it helps keeping threats like electrics, Shrew, and Growlithe-Hisui in check. I also think Shrew would become much more annoying if Mienfoo were banned.

I know this isn't the best way to judge whether a Pokémon is broken, but as I said before, I've never felt that Mienfoo was oppressive or frustrating to play against. I'll also share some stats later to support my opinion.

On the other hand, I honestly think Vullaby is much more concerning than Mienfoo, and if I had to suspect something, it would be Vullaby. Before LCPL we didn't really have enough high-level tournament data to argue that it might be broken, but now we do.

In every LCPL game I played, Vullaby was one of the biggest factors in making progress. Its versatility makes it incredibly difficult to deal with. It puts a huge strain on teambuilding because you almost always need specific answers to its different sets. You often need to dedicate a Tera just for Ground Vullaby (for example Tera Grass, which often becomes a 50/50), Tera Water Elekid, Tera Electric physical Vullaby in some matchups (also leading to 50/50s), Tera Water Gothita, Giga Drain Toed, or even Tera Water Pinch. More or less every team is forced to account for these possibilities, which I think is a much stronger sign of an unhealthy Pokémon than anything Mienfoo currently does.

w1 nplot tect slash hwave timid vulla
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-940963
Turn 2 is a 100% kill since tinka was oran and vulla was timid
Turn 13 tect helps me checking smash or fblitz
Turn 15 again another speed tie
Turn 26 super huge hwave gives me the advantage, job done

w2 scarf adamant vulla
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-943431
Turn 1 big kill, could sky avoid it? I don’t think so cuz you don’t know the set if it’s regular physical set you are pretty down if you put mudbray on knock, clicking with foo and putting mudbray in was def better if vulla wasn’t scarf, that’s why he stayed in and it makes sense.
Turn 21 his vulla goes crazy, I def choked cuz I had sub but here we can see how a set can change a battle even when you are ahead. After that I was down.
At the end my vulla clutched thanks to knock and I won.

w3 t ghost nplot vulla
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-945893
Flinch broken mechanic.

w4 nplot t ground vulla
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-948955
Turn 50 I was pretty down, vulla saved my ass and zs choked with vulla but I do believe vulla was super good after killing tinka.

w5 np slash hwave vulla
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-950741
It was the worst set vs glimmet if I had t ground it was super annoying for his team.
Even that, it was crucial in the game.
Turn 48 is the key turn.
Turn 50 his vulla goes crazy with the flinch and max roll on turn 51 ending the game with a 50/50

w6 mixed vulla with tailwind
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-952993

Same team used vs sky but different vulla set.
Turn 24 and 25 I completely choked, clicking tw would have given me the win.

Finals physical tera ground vulla https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-961148?p2
It did nothing, his vulla won the game and we can see another nplot vulla winning games.

This is what I mean by true versatility in both its movesets and Tera options. As we can see throughout these games, Vullaby had a massive impact and, in some cases, even single-handedly won games.

Foo lcpl overall moves stats:
IMG_8264.jpeg

Swords Dance had a 47% win rate, while Substitute had an 86% win rate. As far as I remember, there was only one Substitute set that wasn't paired with Swords Dance; all the others ran both. Looking at the other moves, the results are fairly balanced. It seems like the real issue is specifically the Substitute + Swords Dance set, which can be extremely annoying to deal with, especially if your main answer is Foongus. If you're using Mareanie instead, the matchup is much more manageable.

Vulla lcpl overall moves stats:
IMG_8265.jpeg

Air Slash had a 61% win rate, Nasty Plot 74%, Tera Blast 67%, and Dark Pulse 50%. These numbers show just how threatening some of Vullaby's sets can be. That's why I strongly believe Vullaby should be suspected first.

Some people argue that banning Vullaby would make Mienfoo much more oppressive, and that could end up being true. However, the metagame and teambuilding would naturally adapt. Teams would no longer be forced to dedicate so many resources to covering Vullaby's different sets, and there would likely be more flexibility to use Tera defensively against foo.

If Vullaby is suspected and ends up being banned, and Mienfoo then proves to be too strong in the new metagame, we can always suspect Mienfoo afterward. For now, though, I believe Vullaby should be the priority and the stats confirm that
 
Fully support Suspecting and banning Mienfoo. And the best time to do it is precisely right before a major LC tournament like SCL, which would become as a high level testing ground for a new metagame. Honestly, a Mon that has almost 100% usage should at least be suspected in every Gen in which that happens.

Would support banning Gothita too, but it would actually become a worse Mon without Mienfoo than with it.

Thats all I have to say on the matter, have a nice Eeveening.
 
Lilyac has the most correct take here. I think aiming for Mienfoo is a misguided approach to fixing this metagame. And unless we want to ban every good pokemon to eliminate the "flow charty" style metagame (by effectively turning it into lc uu), we should reconsider how our metagame got to this point. We've banned shellder now and people are still complaining about the same things. Actually, things like shellder and magby (via wisp) made mienfoo feel like less of an issue than it does now. It feels like the answer should be obvious here. Tera enables all of these pokemon to overcome their normal checks and it's disproportionately better in lc due to the nature of it being level 5. Should we keep pretending that this isn't the issue and continue to ban pokemon as they come? Or can we channel this newfound motivation to be less afraid of mistakes and suspect tests and try something radical? Ban tera and free magby, torchic, shellder, aipom, snivy, gastly, and voltorb and we will have a much more diverse pool of pokemon and feel less restricted in trying to check fringe cheese. Foongus will now check the things it's supposed to check. Sweepers will have a harder time getting away with stealing the game because something happened to be tera fairy instead of ghost for a fringe usecase. Skill expression will be greater. The tera blast suspect, while on the right path, wouldn't have even addressed the actual issues here.

But if we decide to maintain the status quo, keep mienfoo and allow us to keep a great defensive pokemon that helps us ward off losing to [insert random tera sweeper here]. I can't actually think of many games, at least in late rounds of slam and last year's scl where speed ties or whatever people complain about really mattered. Stale metagames aren't automatically uncompetitive. Additionally, Enigma is one of the most winning players of this gen and he always brings some weird mons. Same with people like laroxyl or lokifan. Maybe people can also stop treehugging tink toed mare and then wondering why they lose to offensive foo / vull?
 
LilyAC said:
i agree with you there, but banning foo would make games even MORE flowcharty

this is because foo is a very flexible pokemon. In game, the best way to use it is never obvious. It can soft check lots of different things, so you have to decide when exactly is the best time to bring it in, what are the best things to trade it with or save it for, etc. There are often non-obvious paths where you can regen it up, or use it to pivot another pokemon in. lots of possibilities

in other words, using foo optimally is a difficult thing to master and that makes games more interesting to play; it allows for more skill expression and you get rewarded for playing it well.

most other pokemon are easier to use because they have a more clear purpose. for example, it’s usually obvious that you want to use mudbray as your vullaby counter (and this is what causes games to feel “flowcharty”)

back in SS, we banned vullaby which, like foo, is also a very flexible pokemon. This caused games to become more linear, and that’s a big reason why we had to revert the ban. There’s a good chance that banning foo would have a similar effect in SV
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This argument is based on the (imo) faulty premise that Mienfoo is a flexible Pokemon, which means it promotes skilful/creative gameplay. Mienfoo is certainly flexible in that it can act as a blanket check to a wide variety of Pokemon, but not only is that faint praise in one of the least diverse, most restrictive LC metas ever (which can largely be attributed to Foo and how it suffocates teambuilding), but more importantly it is wrong to conflate matchup flexibility in that sense with flexibility in actual gameplay itself. In reality, the way Mienfoo is played in this metagame is for the most part extremely basic, linear, obvious and straightforward. it is honestly difficult to find games where Mienfoo is used in such a way that could be described as creative, unintuitive or providing any sort of unique skill-expression, and on the contrary it is a Pokemon that is extremely forgiving for mistakes and promotes some pretty primitive gameplay choices.

But don't take my word for it, we can look at replays as an example. For example some of my games in LCPL (just including vs other people with history in SCL since if anyone is using it optimally it should be our best players):

Drifting vs Envy: Both Mienfoo's lead against each-other, spend the whole game coming in only at extremely obvious opportunities to Fake Out, Knock and safely pivot on repeat, Envy actually blunder his Mienfoo on Turn 5 but by the end of the game it's healed up anyway so any consequences of a big outplay turn were largely negated, and eventually, without Foo making a single play outside of the ordinary, a big Foo vs Foo speed tie happens where both can OHKO the other, and I win it which paves the way to a much easier endgame. This replay ironically moreso shows how Vull is actually more like what you describe, a Pokemon that is actually flexible and able to be used creatively especially with Weak Armour. Sandshrew-Alola is also used on both sides here in a much more interesting and creative way than either Mienfoo.

Drifting vs Eric: Both Mienfoo's again, only come in at obvious opportunities to safely Knock and pivot, I actually outplay Eric's Mienfoo with Balloon Tink (another common Pokemon with far more outplay potential built into it), I continue to build a lead by outplaying for the first half of the battle, get crit once which turns my advantage into a big disadvantage, and then the loss is cemented by a Mienfoo speed-tie where both HJK's will kill and where we're both heavily incentivised to make the primitive coin-flip play. Another game where not only is Foo not used creatively/skilfully at all, in fact it promotes the opposite kind of reductive coin-flippy gameplay.

But OK, I'm just one guy and maybe me and my opponents have a major skill issue. Let's look at what are ostensibly the most tryhard games of recent, the LCPL finals and how Mienfoo is used in them:

LB vs Bub: Bub's Mienfoo leads, clicks Knock HJK into a Bray and then runs away to heal, comes in on a Thunderbolt and then uses Fake Out and gets sacked. The other Mienfoo does nothing all game and then comes in to cheese so-called counter Foongus with Tera-Steel sub to win the game on the spot. Literally zero skill expression shown by either Mienfoo. I even tried to be generous and commend the bare minimum "Bub knew Elekid probably wouldn't Psychic a Vullaby so Mienfoo was a safe switch" but then I calced it and thanks to Regenerator Mienfoo would have survived the Psychic anyway, so yeah, literally nothing of note was done this game.

Eric vs Greedy: Eric uses Tera-Steel substitute to set-up on Foongus, a Mienfoo counter, and puts Greedy in a spot where his best play is to risk the Mienfoo speed-tie to try and break the sub and kill with Diglett, he loses the speed-tie so his Mienfoo dies without doing anything and instead he has to burn tera with Sandshrew which causes him to lose the game. This game wasn't just no skill being used by either Mienfoo, it was literally Mienfoo promoting/forcing actively unskilled gameplay choices.

Laroxyl vs Lady Writer: Both Foos lead into eachother, Laro sets up as LW clicks Knock, and now both players are forced into a situation where they have to click a lethal HJK on a speed-tie coin-flip because the cost of doing anything else is way too high. This means that Laro loses the speed-tie, dies, and instantly loses the game (and no, LW's Mienfoo doesn't make any plays in the process.)

***

I hope this serves as a showcase of why this claim that "Mienfoo is used very flexibly, is very hard to use and showcases a lot of skill and outplaying" is honestly just complete fan-fiction, at least in this generation. Not only is Mienfoo making only the most basic, safe, repetitive and routine gameplay choices on when it comes in, what it does and when it leaves, it is often the fundamental driving force behind many of the most primitive, risky and straight-up dumb gameplay, because the price Mienfoo makes you pay to make a smart/reliable play against it is often way too high to justify not just ripping the speed-tie. And also sometimes it just wins the game instantly by exploiting Foongus because sure, I love when my metagame glue is also sometimes Salac Magnemite.

Everything I said in my previous posts about why I think Mienfoo is toxic still stands and are the main reasons I want it suspected, but I just wanted to write this as a case study and direct rebuttal of the "Mienfoo is a fountain of skilful gameplay!" myth, because I think it is one that could be really dangerous if people buy into it without actually analysing the claim with evidence. Thanks for reading. and FREE AIPOM.
 
the obvious solution has been a hard tiering reset but we're like deathly allergic to this idea because it'd require admitting this tier has been severely mismanaged in terms of tiering action with multiple bans that led us to this situation.

foo sucks both ways for the ban/don't ban crowd as well articulated above — both results lead to a tier that just isn't playable anymore.

I'm begging our community to recognize that more drastic action is required on this tier and that we need to just accept a reset would at least get people interested to play again and see what is actually broken and what isn't.

haha react this post all you want but end of the day I'm the only one who's been pointing out an actual solution to sv lc that feels like it'd actually do something for the tier


nothing has actually changed about the mon (while the tier has been substantially changed by awful tiering) and the same people are dropping polar opposite takes in the same discord. at least Colin is consistent if you pull up the receipts
 

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I am deeply in favor of a hard reset. Unban the Pokémon, ban Tera Blast, and then suspect-test the actual tier leaders once we have established a new baseline.


Jokes aside, if we have reached the point where Mienfoo is being seriously discussed as the central problem, then we have taken nearly all the fun out of the game. I legitimately preferred the Gastly/Porygon/Snivy metagame. It may have been more visibly broken, but it was at least interesting to build and play. Unfortunately, the nature of Terastallization means that SV LC will probably always be an unstable metagame to some degree.


That is why I think the ban-Mienfoo crowd is trying to fix something that cannot be fixed through another isolated ban. Mienfoo is not the underlying problem; it is merely the current face of a tier shaped by years of piecemeal decisions. Ban it, and the structural problems created by Tera and the existing ban list will remain. We will simply spend another few months arguing about whichever Pokémon becomes oppressive or overcentralizing next.


This is especially frustrating because we never properly addressed Tera Blast, nor did we systematically retest previously banned Pokémon after the metagame changed around them. At this point, the ban list reflects several different versions of SV LC rather than one coherent tiering philosophy.


To be clear, I do not think the current metagame is outrageously unfair. It is probably in a reasonably balanced state. It is also painfully boring, and “technically balanced” should not be treated as the only measure of a successful tier. A tier that people no longer enjoy building or playing has still failed, even if no individual Pokémon cleanly meets the traditional definition of broken.


My preferred solution would therefore be a genuine hard-reset test: allow the full pool of Pokémon while banning Tera Blast, then evaluate the resulting metagame and suspect-test its leading threats individually. I am not claiming that every previously banned Pokémon would prove balanced. The point is to determine that through actual play under one consistent framework instead of continuing to defend a ban list produced by an entirely different series of metagames.


If we are going to make a drastic change, I would rather test something capable of making the tier interesting again than ban Mienfoo and pretend we have finally solved SV LC.
 
Trawkan said:
Still unaddressed considering it was voted to stay this tier is DOOMED
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The "problem" is adressed if there is a Suspect. The outcome was not the one you wanted, but the Suspect happened. So, now something else has to be suspected.

To be fair, I am not opposed to a Tier reset. The most fun LC meta I ever played was the one at the end of 2013, when every Mon except Scyther was unbanned. Sneasel obviously dominated and the power level was very high, but it was very fun to play. Then, every single Mon that outclassed Mienfoo or made it a liability got banned and thats how we got to current situation.
 
Even if Foo isn’t the main cause of every problem in the tier, I still think its current level of usage and influence is worth looking into. I’m not saying Foo is 100% broken or that banning it will definitely make the tier better, but I think there’s enough disagreement around it to justify testing it and seeing what happens. I could obviously be wrong on some of this, but that’s just how I see it.
 
I expect tomatoes to be thrown my direction following this post, but here goes.

The LC council is considering, but has not decided on, suspecting Aipom for a potential unban. Other targets for tiering action (Mienfoo, Vullaby, Tera/terablast) either have no clear consensus or a majority do not ban. There is more likely to be action relating to these when SCL is close to finishing.

The LC council is considering Aipom for a suspect due to the circumstances of its autoban and because it pressures Vullaby and Mienfoo. Aipom was initially banned because there was confusion on whether or not it got Tail Slap, which would 2hko resists with a Life Orb. This damage output in a bulky 19 speed package would have been broken. Aipom does not get Tail Slap, and needs to rely on Fury Swipes instead. Life Orb Fury Swipes is a much tamer move, doing only one damage a hit to most resists and against anything with 16 or more defense carrying an Eviolite, unless Tera Normal is used. Tera Normal Fury Swipes unlocks the broken damage output of Tail Slap at the cost of using Terastalization.

Aipom is bulky enough to live hits such as a Vullaby Brave Bird even when carrying a Life Orb. Aipom also has a very large move pool, with Fake Out, Knock Off, U-turn, and Fire Punch being some standouts. These attributes make Aipom much more versatile than most other Life Orb users, which are glass cannons. This also ensures that Aipom can punish pokemon that switch in against it.

Counterplay to Aipom includes normal resists, pokemon with 16 or more defense (17 or more for adamant sets), and Mudbray because these pokemon take minimal damage from non terad fury swipes. Choice Scarfers, Elekid, and Priority are also capable of managing Aipom, especially since Aipom needs Tera Normal for consistent damage. Some Choice Scarfers, including Growlithe-hisui and Sandshrew-alola, are capable of switching in against non Tera Fury Swipes. Trapinch and Gothita need significant chip, but they can force a KO on Gothita. Defensive Terastalization is a last resort, but teams in the current metagame already use a lot of ghost and steel Teras.

Aipom can benefit the tier because it is capable of punishing many of the more dangerous setup Mienfoo and Vullaby sets. Our current speed control is hit or miss against SD mienfoo teams, and usually does not work against Nasty Plot Vullaby, which can run away with games using Tera Ground because of this. Aipom is able to reliably punish a Mienfoo tera with its own, and can revenge some Vullaby that lack endure (punishable only by substitute) or tera ghost. Aipom might also just be insanely broken if teams can justify using Tera on it every game. I don't know yet, and neither does anyone else. If Aipom is suspected, there is a solid chance that it is a waste of time. Maybe it is broken, or maybe it causes too many guessing games. But personally, I believe that Aipom will not be broken because I believe the tier can punish Aipom tera similarly to how it punishes other Life Orb tera users

For what it's worth, Aipom at home (Minccino) has been legal and outright ineffective in this tier. It is a speed point slower, weaker, and frailer, but it has tail slap and most of the coverage.

Tldr, Aipom may be suspected for an unban soon due to a lack of consensus on all other potential tiering actions right now. It will not be freed without one.
 
Correct tiering process here is Aipom should be unbanned with no suspect test. If it appears broken, suspect test it in a month.

Council indicated multiple times the reason for its auto ban was the mistaken belief that Aipom had Tail Slap, which justifiably makes it an auto ban. This reason is reiterated in the above post.

In the absence of Tail Slap, Aipom should not have been auto banned. It is good to see this mistake corrected.

Suspect testing Aipom when its original ban reason was illegitimate unfairly puts the onus on Aipom during a presumed suspect ladder while also subjecting it to a supermajority voting % to unban (60%) versus the bar Aipom typically needs to meet under a suspect test to keep it in the tier (50%). This is poor procedure.
 
dcae said:
Correct tiering process here is Aipom should be unbanned with no suspect test. If it appears broken, suspect test it in a month.

Council indicated multiple times the reason for its auto ban was the mistaken belief that Aipom had Tail Slap, which justifiably makes it an auto ban. This reason is reiterated in the above post.

In the absence of Tail Slap, Aipom should not have been auto banned. It is good to see this mistake corrected.

Suspect testing Aipom when its original ban reason was illegitimate unfairly puts the onus on Aipom during a presumed suspect ladder while also subjecting it to a supermajority voting % to unban (60%) versus the bar Aipom typically needs to meet under a suspect test to keep it in the tier (50%). This is poor procedure.
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This

Also, don't let scl timing be what's holding us back on tier changes. I would have said otherwise in past years but I think we should be trying to promote activity on this website and in our tier. I think the 10 best of the best players will hold their strong. Go crazy. Suspect mienfoo if you want to continue going down the hole, or entertain a hard tier reset if you want to climb out. I'm game for either! Are we doing this for the community, or for the tiering admins?
 
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I've just watched an SCL match where :vullaby: has once again destroyed a team after setting up with Nasty Plot:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-971061

I believe there have been numerous discussions about Vullaby being an issue, in particular, the following sets:
  • Nasty Plot, Air Slash, Heat Wave/Endure, Tera Blast (Ground)
  • Nasty Plot, Air Slash, Heat Wave/Dark Pulse, Roost (less common but Roost has personally helped me in some games)
I believe the standard Vullaby set is fine in the meta (U-Turn, Roost, Brave Bird, Knock Off) or the scarf set, but once Nasty Plot gets set up and Vullaby gets the speed boost through its ability, it can easily become problematic across the whole meta.

I'm sure there are answers like with every mon (e.g. I tried using :wattrel: in my LPL game this week which weirdly paid off), but I feel the overall LC community can agree that Nasty Plot/Tera Blast is an issue here.

I would be curious to know whether the LC Council will be considering some form of action here, or what their thoughts are at this stage.
 
I liked Vullabyless SS more with Natu being a good bird more than Vullaby one, wouldn't be sad if it goes.

That being said, if there is one centralizing Mon in SV, it's Mienfoo, it has always been Mienfoo. It's a more unhealthy Mon than Vullaby will ever be.

Still, if people want Vullaby nerfed but not banned, Weak Armor Ban can be explored. This prevents the +2/+2 sweep. Of course, neither Sinistea, nor Slugma are broken with Weak Armor, but both get alternative usable abilities, in the case of Slugma, Flame Body is a better one, so almost nothing of value is lost. An additional benefit of a Weak Armor Ban is Foonguss becoming a little worse, since Overcoat Vullaby switches into Spore. Think about it.
 
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