Metagame Metagame Discussion

Time to get some Eeveetechnology flowing on the market now that we have been eliminated from LCWL:

:snover: :cubchoo:

Arbolito (Snover) (M) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 36 HP / 20 Atk / 196 Def / 180 SpA / 36 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Ice Shard
- Blizzard
- Protect

Bernie (Cubchoo) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
Level: 5
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 116 Def / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Surf
- Body Press
- Tera Blast

Couldn,t build a good team with the core, but this Cubchoo kills almost everything in the Tier with the perfect coverage it has.

:shroomish:

Honguito (Shroomish) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Level: 5
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spore
- Zen Headbutt / Bullet Seed (post Gastly Ban Bullet Seed was better).
- Facade
- Drain Punch

If at some point Glimmet becomes S Rank and therefore really common, this guy could afford to run Eviolite and become unkillable after Diglett traps Glimmet and triggers Toxic Spikes. Right now is mediocre but somewhat checks Pawniard, Toed and Brave Bird less Quaxly.

:sandygast:


Castlevania (Sandygast) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Compaction
Level: 5
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power

Good Mon at putting Rocks and checking some physical threats. A shame it loses to Toed (but can actually win vs Encoreless Quaxly).

:dratini: :glimmet: :quaxly: :greavard: :girafarig: :mudbray: https://pokepast.es/1a6104f97849f2d2

First team I built that didn,t completely suck. Glimmet SPAMs Hazards, Greavard spinblocks very well and abuses Hazards with Roar, while being durable with Restalk. Girafarig was broken and Dratini could sometimes sweep, having Tera Fight to not be stopped by Pawniard. This is not the last Dratini set you will see on this post.

:shellos:

Babosin (Shellos-East) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 68 HP / 52 Def / 140 SpA / 180 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Recover

Puts Rocks, kills Toed and immune to Knock Off. Good Mon. At some point Curse + Amnesia + Waterfall will make a comeback, with Diglett support.

:azurill: :diglett: :glimmet: :quaxly: :drifloon: :girafarig: https://pokepast.es/5d334fd5c1b7ad79

Week 1 team! Every Mon here has some move to disrupt the opponent, be it a Status, hazard or Memento. Azurill was a slept on threat around which this team was built. Diglett traps some Azurill checks like Pawniard and Mareanie. Glimmet puts Spikes and is the second Memento user. Drifloon has the one set I have been including in every team in which I used the globe: Weakness Policy abuses the very high Toedscool (who has Knock Off, but its not strong enough to even kill after Rocks) usage, but can still be activated without Toed via Endure. Pawniard can revenge kill Floon with Sucker Punch, but can be either slept by Hypnosis or burned so that Azurill can use BD safely. Quaxly can sweep and also facilitates set-up for Azurill or a switch-in by using Encore. Girafarig is broken and even more annoying with yellow magic (which can also help Azurill to use Belly Drum).

The plan of the team was Azurill to sweep and in the battle it actually did it.

:gothita: :hoppip: :diglett: :zorua: :shroodle: :axew: https://pokepast.es/7f6a4add36bc25fa

I took 2 weeks break after week 1 and when I got back, the meta was very different, without Girafarig. This was my attempt to cheese the new Meta with 3 Memento users and 3 sweepers, one of which could also facilitate the sweep of the other 2 by using Charm before dying.

:fidough:

Doggo (Fidough) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Own Tempo
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 220 HP / 196 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Wish
- Crunch
- Protect

Wish Fairy Mon. You will apreciate having one when Dragons become more common. Then, Axew will start running Poison Jab and this dog will become useless again.

:nacli: :hoppip: :shroodle: :greavard: :quaxly: :wooper: https://pokepast.es/611e6ce38f1b0055

Nacli is a Gastly check. Wooper is a Pawniard and Voltorb check. Hoppip switches into Knock Off from Toedscool and uses a powerful Acrobatics to kill it.

:gastly: :voltorb: :bronzor: :pineco: :diglett: :drifloon: https://pokepast.es/52fabacf78db6dd6

Team of only round Mons (Diglett is close enough to round). Not the worst team I built during the tournament. With so few Knock Off users, Bronzor would legit be a good Mon if it had Berry Juice available.

:glimmet: :greavard: :quaxly: :hippopotas: :hoppip: :pawniard: https://pokepast.es/85d672caf9501386

Week 4 team! Has someone played ADV OU here? If so, you have surely heard about TSS (Toxic Sandstorm Spikes) playstyle. Well, it can be replicated in SV LC. Unfortunately, Sandstorm is not permanent this Gen, but on the other hand, we have a Mon (well, actually 2, but Salandit is too frail) capable of poisoning opposing Steels and Poisons! This Glimmet is bulky enough to wistand some neutral hits and spread both Toxic and Spikes. If it doesn,t Tera (usually it does), it gets to abuse increased special bulk provided by Hippopotas, who puts Rocks and phazes away. Our old friend Greavard is present in this team to reliably spinblock vs everything and also use Roar. Quaxly spins and Pawniard is a generally solid Mon that checks many threats and is immune to Sandstorm. For last slot, I wanted something immune to Webs that could use a Choice Scarf. Hoppip has already been tested in other teams, in this one it provides another check to Toedscool and cripples some opposing sweepers with Scarf + Switcheroo, bypassing Substitute due to Infiltrator. In tests, Hoppip frequently switched in and unexpectedly killed opposing Digletts.

In the actual battle, Hoppip saved me from a Nasty Plot Stunky. Meanwhile, both Glimmet and Greavard spinblocked all the battle and used well their signature moves, giving me another win.

:finizen:

Zero (Finizen) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

A Boomburst Mon with 18 Speed? Sign me up! Unfortunately, never could build a decent team with it. The abundance of ghosts, certainly doesn,t help.

:spoink:

Cerdito (Spoink) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 76 Def / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Tera Blast

This is the hardest hitting Psychic in LC. Unfortunately, that is pretty much the only advantage it has over Gothita, who is broken.

:clauncher: :foongus: :pawniard: :toedscool: :gastly: :crabrawler: https://pokepast.es/fac28439c92f2752

Week 5 team! In previous generations, Clauncher never got to shine due to the one STAB boosted by Mega Launcher being the weak Water Pulse. Tera gives this shrimp a new life. STAB Dark Pulse is incredibly powerful and 2HKOs almost everything neutral with some small chip. Unlike other cleaners, this Mon doesn,t need Spikes, Rocks are enough. Pawniard provides said rocks and Foonguss provides free turns with Spore. Having 3 fire weak Mons might be dangerous, but having both Foonguss and Toed means that one of them won,t be knocked vs opposing Toed and will continue either walling or making progress. Gastly can spinblock Quaxly once and Crabawler is a hard hitter that also checks Pawniard, which is very important to do.

Unlike in ladder, Clauncher didn,t sweep Gorex and I even needed a turn of luck to secure the win (otherwise it would be very hard to win from my position) but nonetheless, the shrimp wasn,t useless either in that battle.

:barboach: :drifloon: :pawniard: :glimmet: :quaxly: :gastly: https://pokepast.es/a3b4ec782ceeb951

With Spikes support, Barboach is a decent sweeper that is also immune to Taunt (and Intimidate, but almost no Mon uses that ability). This was a team I was considering using if Gastly avoided the Ban, but it didn,t.

:cufant: :hatenna: :toedscool: :sinistea: :gastly: :deino: https://pokepast.es/37b5f5b9486a28a7

Only Trick Room experiment. Before I could determine if it was good enough or not, Gastly got banned.

:silicobra: :drifloon: :sinistea: :foongus: :pawniard: :quaxly: https://pokepast.es/40d4db49aa61ee3a

First of 4 Silicobra teams. This one was really good in tests due to Sinistea sweeping potential. Silicobra itself is a tanky Mon that spreads para and puts Rocks, living some strong hits from Surskit, Quaxly and Toedscool. Despite liking the team a lot, Zorua Hisui was unexpectedly released and allowed in Week 6, ruining my plan, since it rendered Sinistea useless unless I comitted to Dark Pulse.

:dratini: :diglett: :quaxly: :glimmet: :drifloon: :bramblin: https://pokepast.es/577de80b7456c5c7

This is what I call Demon Dratini. When asleep (or Statused in general), combined with Eviolite, this Mon has 31 Defense, living virtually everything from the physical Stats. Taking into account that there are almost no physical Dragon, Ice or Fairy Moves in LC, its a dangerous threat. If Sleep Talk rolls Outrage, it doesn,t lock Dratini into it. Now, this set doesn,t have much immediate power, so Spikes and Rocks are needed. Diglett is also needed to remove Tinkatink and maybe SD Pawniard and Magnemite. The rest of the team checks threats, puts and removes hazards and are just useful Mons in general. This team was a strong candidate to be used in Weeks 6, 7 and Semis, barely failing every time.

:larvitar: :wattrel: :pawniard: :quaxly: :shroomish: :diglett: https://pokepast.es/537a4d0c826df9d2

This is the team that JuanSG told me that is by far the worst I posted in my channel. Its certainly very bad. The whole point is to kills opposing Glimmet and then activate Guts DD Larvitar without the need of a Flame Orb. If that failed, then Larvitar would have to be burned by opposing ghost. Yeah, its very bad, but it made some sense.

:chewtle: :pawniard: :stunky: :toedscool: :zorua_hisui: :wingull: https://pokepast.es/5e0e89a1de51da92

Dark is the best offensive type in LC, so this is a Dark SPAM team. Every Mon here except Wingull (who also could do it with Knock Off) has a Dark Move. Overall, not a solid team but I am pretty sure someone at some point will come up with some better variation of it.

:silicobra: :drifloon: :zorua_hisui: :foongus: :pawniard: :quaxly: https://pokepast.es/3974826ac6c7aecd

Out of frustration of losing the previous Silicobra team, I built another one replacing Sinistea for Zorua. Unforunately, Zorua is not a Mon I could use well, so I didn,t trust this variation of the team.

:gothita: :diglett: :mareanie: :crabrawler: :toedscool: :tinkatink: https://pokepast.es/08b80447f3ca1867

Trapping is BROKEN. This is Double Trap, with both trappers having 4 offensive Moves to kills the maximum amount of things. In fact, the whole team is really offensive, only 3 Moves are not out of 24. This was quite a good team and I even considered using it in Semis. Would have had more chances to win than with what I brought.

:sandile: :glimmet: :quaxly: :greavard: :drifloon: :pawniard: https://pokepast.es/f8c990b4f84f40c7

Week 6 team! I built this team on the same day I battled kythr and with some advices from jcbc and last minute changes (Tera Dark Sandile was literally decided right before the battle) I ended up using this team. Its a hazard Stack and Dark (hello, Pawniard) SPAM combined. 2 ghosts prevent spin (with Drifloon abusing Toed and Greavard walling Quaxly) and my own duck is a spinner choosen over Toed due to resisting Water and Fire. If enough chip is aplied, Sandile can sweep in late game.

Which is what happened in the battle, Sandile ate all the opposing team. Kythr liked this team so much, that he ripped it (changing some sets) and defeated Juan in Semis, so my win was counterproductive in the long run.

:meowth_galar: :quaxly: :foongus: :pawniard: :drifloon: :silicobra: https://pokepast.es/578d272712011aa0

During last regular season and during Semis I got ill. Like, really ill, high temperature, general weakness and lots of coughing. This had some consequences: I started working from home, I felt depressed and I began to take lots of bad decisions, since my brain didn,t work well. The quality of the team during last 2 weeks of the tournament severely decreased, creativity almost abandoned me. This team was one of the exceptions and still is another copy of original Silicobra one. Galarian Meowth is like Clauncher, but physical. It uses Tough Claws and hits hard with Tera Dark Crunch (though sometimes it can flinchhax with Iron Head too). Other than that, the rest teammates are the same, all pretty solid mons. I would have used this team vs FC in Week 7 if my team didn,t have Playoffs guaranted. It was also a candidate for the Semis match and probably better than what I used.

:petilil: :nymble:

Petty Lil (Petilil) @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpA / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Healing Wish
- Pollen Puff

Montes (Nymble) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tinted Lens
Level: 5
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 228 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Leech Life


Petilil is one of the 2 Healing Wish users in LC, other being Hatenna, who has Magic Bounce but worse typing. Best Mon to abuse Healing Wish is Nymble, who has Life Orb and is weak to Rocks. With Healing Wish, it can be played Recklessly, take some weak hits and be revived later in the match.

:glimmet: :drifloon: :pawniard: :toedscool: :quaxly: :crabrawler: https://pokepast.es/c2bb50e4a4e92816

Scarf Glimmet team. It has so much Special Attack than when changing from Timid to Modest nature, it jumps 2 points, its the only Mon in LC capable of that. Maybe this team is not entirely bad, but didn,t feel good enough when I tested it, maybe cause I was ill.

:growlithe:

Growly (Growlithe) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- Morning Sun

Offensive Intimidate user. Needs Tera to not be murdered by Diglett and still not entirely good with Tera.

:gible: :axew: :frigibax: :deino: :bagon: :dratini: https://pokepast.es/36bf8348cd36ce59

Week 7 team! I built this team all the way back in Week 4 and considered using it vs Kythr in Week 6 (it was a good decision not doing it, since Kythr happened to bring a Tinkatink). It started out as a meme team but worked surprisingly well on ladder. Not well enough to trust it in a must win game vs FC, but well enough to consider it for a not must win game (the Week 6 one). This team went through many changes. I don,t remember which Tera had Gible at the beginning, but it ended up Ghost + Rock Slide. Tera Ghost is to sometimes spinblock (never had to do it in tests though). Rock Slide is to have a chance to flinch lead Surskit, since Webs are not a good match-up. Axew is the best LC Dragon and has Tera Fight to face Pawniard. Susbtitute help to boost on some status from Mareanie or even Spore from Toedscool and Foongus. Frigibax is the second Scarfer, since Gible most of the time just puts Rocks and dies. Having 18 Attack, it hits really hard with Tera Dragon. It happens to be the only Icicle Spear user in LC too, multi-hits moves are broken. Sleep Talk allows it to absorb Spore. Dragon Tail looks dumb on a Scarf Mon, but I never clicked Dragon Claw anyway, so I put Dragon Tail to prepare for an hypothetical situation of Frigibax taking a Spore and later in the match an opposing Pawniard using SD and threatening to kill all my team. Deino is the defensive dragon that has good resistances and paralyzes stuff with Thunder Wave. Its also the main Spore absorber and sometimes Teras to remove Toxic Spikes with the Poison typing. Bagon is fully outclassed by Axew in Stats and has no reason to be used without Axew on the same team, but on its own is a decent Mon and has Sheer Force to hit Mareanie with Zen Headbutt and Pawniard with Fire Fang, sometimes boosted by Tera. Dratini has a secondary Water Tera STAB, which like Bagon's resists Water.

Sets might be complicated, but overall gameplan is not: just Outrage everything, there is only one Fairy Mon in LC and 2 used Steels, its easy! When my team qualified for Playoffs, I knew I had to use this vs FC and it dismantled his Rain.

:snorunt: :greavard: :drifloon: :toedscool: :glimmet: :axew: https://pokepast.es/5ca89d1932d27b0f

Snorunt puts Spikes, threatens Toedscool, randomly kills Pawniard and steals items. It could be a better Mon if Moody was allowed, but still can do something. Rest of the team is a pretty standart team that abuses Spikes.

:spoink: :bronzor: :gothita: :slowpoke: :hatenna: :ralts: https://pokepast.es/98d53cbc82539f19

jcbc seriously considered bringing a Monopsychic in Semis. He even built one. There are 7 Psychic Mons in LC. He left out Ralts, I left out Drowzee. You probably believe me now I was ill and my brain wasn,t at full power when I built this.

:axew: :diglett: :toedscool: :quaxly: :stunky: :wattrel: https://pokepast.es/661fa9bf763f6b89

Adamant Tera Dragon 19 Attack Axew hits like a truck. Unfortunately, I am not good at using Stunky and Wattrel, so this team failed.

:tinkatink:

Hammer (Tinkatink) @ Eviolite
Ability: Pickpocket
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 156 Def / 84 SpD / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Ice Hammer
- Play Rough

It learns SD. Someone will build a SD one.

:wattrel:


Mini Zapdos (Wattrel) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Competitive

After using so many Spike Stacks with unspinnable Greavard, I expected that at some point, people began using Defog Drifloon vs me. This would have been the counterplay to that, but I couldn,t build a good team with it.

:goomy: :tinkatink: :toedscool: :mareanie: :gothita: :wattrel: https://pokepast.es/ecaa4dd270e2dae8

Goomy has impressive special bulk, allowing it to spread para and also drop Speed with Gooey. It can also surprise a physical Mon with Counter. Team is not entirely bad, but not good either.

:wiglett: :foongus: :silicobra: :pawniard: :drifloon: :quaxly: https://pokepast.es/46830038b6f5e343

Semis team! This is what I ended up using in Semis, getting my team eliminated by doing so. Its the 4th and last Silicobra team. Wiglett hits decently hard with Adamant nature and can lure Mareanie in, eliminating it with Stomping Tantrum and allowing Brave Bird Quaxly to sweep later.

Team wasn,t that bad, but I took a very bad decision at the begining of the match by not putting Rocks on the only turn I could, deciding to preserve (uselessly, it didn,t do anything after that) Silicobra instead. That and not having a good counterplay to WoW Drifloon ended up dooming me.

:grimer: :gothita: :pawniard: :quaxly: :bramblin: :mudbray: https://pokepast.es/0186d859f8b42228

I was feeling better on the day of last match and creativity was going back, this team was actually decent though I didn,t have enough time to test it. Grimer is a Sticky Hold Mon that can sweep with Curse. Unfortunately, it needs Tera Grass to actually wall Toedscool and not be murdered by Diglett or Gothita (whose Trick it also blocks). It also apreciates Spikes support, therefore a bulky Bramblin comes to also wall Toed and BB less Quaxly. Gothita is in this team to kill Mareanie, which totally walls Grimer. Mudbray is a bulky Restalk Mon that checks powerful attackers like Pawniard and Nymble, being able to ditch strong hits itself.

Some Eeveeto wisdom regarding the Meta.

-Trapping is broken! Even more than in regular Tiers, I fully support the Ban of both Gothita and Diglett (not so much of Wynaut or Trapinch if they come, but they are small price to pay). Pretty sure Lunala will agree with me on this one.

-Zorua Hisui is not broken, but an extremely annoying Mon I would ban too. Makes some matches very guesing reliant. Its also annoying to use, since instead of just clicking the lead in each game, it consumes time by making you think the optimal order of the team. I just don,t like the fact that an Ilusion Mon is a dominating force of the meta.

-Pawniard is the best Mon of the Tier. Not because of the things it kills and the sweeping potential, but because of the fact it soft checks almost every Mon and doesn,t allow you to lose on the spot to many threats.

-Drifloon is almost broken this Gen. I used to think it was not broken on previous Gens with so many Knock Off users, but on this one its a really strong Mon, especially with Weakness Policy abusing Toedscool hard.

-Speaking of Toedscool, despite what Éric says, I don,t think its the best Mon, since there is so much tech to abuse it, like the previous mentioned Drifloon or Hoppip. Rowlett's arrival makes it even easier to check. Its however still a great Mon and dominating force.

-Quaxly is clearly worse spinner than Toedscool but not much worse. In 95% of the teams you need to have a spinner, so the duck will have a niche for a long time.

-Grounded poison Mon is needed in every team due to Glimmet just existing. After Glimmet itself, Foonguss, Mareanie and Shroodle, in this order, is what I consider the best Poison Mons.

-Dragons (especially Axew and Dratini) are good, use some Tera Fairy Mons.

-The new Mon, Rowlett, has potential. It gained Bullet Seed this Gen and switches into Toedscool and BB less Quaxly very well. Pawniard is common enough to not use Defog now, but Bullet Seed, Brave Bird, Knock Off and Roost is a decent set that lasts long and does some damage.

-Wattrel is a Mon I can,t use well, but Tera Water one is the only thing that prevents Tera Ice Voltorb (or legendary Tera Electric Cubchoo) from storming the Tier.

-Galarian Meowth is superior to Kanto one.

-Dark type is the best offensive one of the Tier, therefore if your Mon can hit hard with Tera Dark move, do it (examples: Galarian Meowth, Chewtle and Clauncher).

-Restalk Mudbray is an extremely big threat that will gain more usage in the future. Probably is a good partner for Rowlett, they are bulky Mons that hit hard and stick around for a long time. Mudbray happens to be weak to the Spinners of the Tier, which Rowlett checks well.

-The 3 Protean/Libero Mons can be explored too. I tried and failed, but Corckscrew managed to get a win with Sprigatito in Semis.

-Physical LO Stunky could also be explored. I found special one underwhelming, but it has high attack and learns Gunk Shot and Play Rough.

-Can,t wait for Alolan Grimer to come and SPAM Knock Off, especially if my dream comes true and Diglett gets removed from the Tier.

-Grookey has Knock Off too and does Grookey things. Grass Pelt Skiddo could be a partner, would have 31 Defense in Grassy Terrain before Bulk Up.

-Oshawott is an ugly Mon (despite which there is a renowned LC player who has/had it as nick, what a poor decision), but has SD + Aqua Jet. Add Tera Dark to that and think about it.

-Cyndaquil can use Tera Fire Eruption in Sun.

-Chespin could be the reason for Gastly to be unbanned. It has Bulletproof and Gastly doesn,t know Sludge Wave, just Venoshock or Hex (hi, Tera Dark).

-Hopefully Hisuian Qwilfish lasts more than a week in the Tier. Stantler is boring, ban it immediately. Can,t even hope for Basculin to stay with Adaptability and 20 Speed, same for Hisuian Sneasel.

-Hisuian Growlithe can make some people smash their heads with the PC just like it uses Head Smash.

-Hisuian Voltorb won,t be walled by Tera Water Wattrel.

This is all, have a nice Eeveening.
 
Can we get a "Don't use that, use this" thread? Just with the amount of jank that happens, especially when it's a new tier. Obviously there's things that do have honest niches, but without understanding those niches it is likely to help with bringing players exploring the tier up instead of getting frustrated as to why things they might have seen in LCWL and SSNL replays aren't working for them.
 
:finizen:
I’ve been trying Finizen out for a while now and I think it’s pretty good. It’s abilit prevents burns, which is ok but not very helpful. I’ve been running surf, ice beam, Boomburst, and Tera fighting Tera blast with life orb. Combined with its above average speed, finizen revenge kills mons like Diglett, Toedscool, Fuecoco, and a few others. Also using it as a lead vs sash glimmet removes it while it only gets one hazard off. Surf is a special move, so it doesn’t trigger toxic debris. Tera blast is for fighting Pawniard, and Boomburst is just a great move for mons you can’t hit super effectively. Not a lot of people know how to counter this mon right now cause it’s barely used, so it’s likely using it will get you at least 2 knockouts before your opponent figures out some way to outspeed finizen.
 
Cetoddle might be a good sheer force user. While not the fastest it is able to hit hard and with priority like ice shard or icicle crash. It also have good coverage in earthquake, body slam, play rough, superpower and facade. Not to mention it can set up snow. while the defenses are lackluster the large base 108 hp stat means it can take a few hits. It doesn’t need life orb for sheer force injure an opposing Mon even if it’s resisted. With proper building and the rise in popularity of snover in the posts and possibly meta, this Mon might be valued in the meta. it also might be able to deploy a rare yawn set with threat of belly drum if a switch happens or a Pokémon is sleep.Also it can equip life orb and be able to have a OHKO with superpower on pawn. With life orb a play rough has a 75% to OHKO crab.
 
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With my team out of the LC Winter League playoffs, I have likely played my last meaningful LC game of this meta (pre-home SV). This meta is a bit over five months old now, with a few major shifts within it, namely the Girafarig and Gastly bans and the introduction of Zorua-H. From what I've seen and discussed within the community, there is a lot of frustration with the state of the tier and not a lot of confidence in how to fix it.

I believe it is time to take the most dramatic and fundamental option: LC needs to vote on Tera Preview or a Terastallization ban altogether.

It seems to me that OU acted way too hastily by going through this process in the first few weeks of the tier and cost themselves their best chance to make a core decision about this generation, especially given the razor-thin vote margins and the majority preference for a change from the status quo. I will not claim to know how OU players feel about the mechanic now, but we should not make the mistake of depriving ourselves of a Tera vote simply because another tier did one too early. The purpose of LCWL was to develop the tier and to build familiarity, and after an absolute slog of SV LC games, the tier has developed into a mess.

One unavoidable truth is that we are operating with the worst pool of Pokemon Gamefreak has given us to date, made clear by perpetual also-rans like Crabrawler placing at A+ in the viability ranking. It is possible that we do not have the tools to fix this meta, at least before Home releases. So why vote on Tera or Tera preview?

1) Tera increases unpredictability in a way that is not skillful.

Many people, likely optimistic about using the new generational gimmick, hypothesized in the first weeks of SV LC that Tera types would stabilize and the issues of random types winning games out of nowhere would fizzle. The opposite is the case. On dangerous, top tier mons like Crabrawler, the ubiquity of Tera Fire has made alternative Tera types like Electric or Dark even more dangerous, as clicking Wisp against Crabrawler with Tera available is not a risk the opponent can ever take in good conscience. The fact that Tera Flying Diglett is standard makes alternative choices like Tera Fire even stronger, as Pokémon like Voltorb can not afford to play for that alternative. It may be true that "less optimal" Tera types often have their own disadvantages to be exploited, but the offensive nature of LC and the general lack of bulky staples in the tier right now means that a single wrong turn or unexpected KO is often the game.

Moreover, random Tera Blast claims are still in the tier. They may not be everywhere in high level LCWL games, but the fact that a mon like Glimett, which has a limited movepool and clear role, can simply opt to run a scarf with the coverage Tera of its choice (Fire, Fighting, Ground) and KO "checks" like Pawniard or Toedscool or mons that have no reason to hard switch out of it, such as Voltorb, is absurd. The opportunity cost of spending Tera is simply not enough to justify this interaction. Tier knowledge is actively punished by the ability of some mons to simply choose not to be checked.

2) Tera breaks good mons

One reason why I am not confident that Home will save the meta is because one of Tera's main features is how it buffs what were already the best mons in the tier. Crabrawler, for example, is a fearsome sweeper already thanks to its bulk and its ability to tie with and OHKO its "checks" at +1; Tera giving it immunity to Wisp is only the cherry on top.

The more salient examples are the trappers. Some have argued that Tera giving defensive options for Pokemon to escape trappers, such as Water/Ghost Mareanie and Flying/Ghost Pawniard. I would argue instead that Tera has made trappers even stronger. Because the interaction between trappers and their targets is not symmetrical, trappers can often force these Pokemon to Tera defensively simply by coming in and clicking Substitute or switching out altogether, meaning the opponent has expended a valuable resource and not gotten to KO the trapper for it. Conversely, trappers can now choose to kill an even wider range of foes than before. Tera Fly LO Diglett is a fearsome threat even without trapping, and Tera Blast Flying allows it to stomp foes like Toedscool and Crabrawler (as well as scarf grounds!) without even being victim to countertrapping from other Diglett. Scarf Gothita can now trap Pawniard, ludicrous as that is, or really almost anything it wants simply by picking a Tera type. I have never been a person who wants to ban trapping for the sake of trapping, and it has often served a healthy role in LC metas past; I no longer believe this is the case, as Tera has pushed its strength over the edge.

There is only so much value in theorymonning, but it is easy to see how returning staples like Vullaby, Mienfoo, Porygon, Abra, and so on could be broken or at least extremely frustrating in a meta with Tera. Some players seem to enjoy playing in a meta with a low power level and a ripe abundance of C-tiers and unmons that can click buttons and win on occasion because of the meta's latent instability. I am not one of those. More centralized metas lead to more skillful play, rather than rewarding who can theorize the cheesiest, least interactive wincon in the builder.

3) There is no other obvious path forward other than inaction

Nobody seems to agree on a single mon to suspect, with the possible exception of Diglett, and even that ban hardly solves the rife problems in the meta. What, then, do we do about the smashers Shellder and Chewtle, both of whom are overbearing and buffed by Tera into overwhelming their checks? What about webs, which would actually lose some counterplay in Tera Flying Diglett (same as Crabrawler, for that matter)? The longer we wait to act on Tera, the more remote the possibility becomes, until eventually a Tera test is opposed on inertia alone. We can pretend this is not true but we all know it would become the case.

Are a Tera ban or Tera preview solutions to the rough state of the current meta? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is about time to put this option into the community's hands and make a serious decision about the future of SV LC, one way or the other. I can see an argument for delaying this process until after Home, but no longer. We owe it to ourselves to act.
 
I wanted to make a post about my thoughts on the current debate on tiering action, with my take on current state of the metagame, what I personally think are strong options for future action and the why, which can be accomplished more adequately outside the short form of discord.

Overall, I think the tier is in a good spot, there is still innovation and teams that are successful in tours are vastly different game to game, but if you want a standard team, most of those are going to look pretty similar. To me, a healthy metagame is one where inovation and niche has a spot, but for it to work it needs to be done with skill otherwise the establish metagame will eat it alive. I think overall this is generally the case.

However, I think that this is something that is hurt by there being too many permutations to prepare for, which I feel is the underlying cause of most players gripes with the metagame. There are to many different things that can happen in a single turn. From a pure decision making process, this builds apathy for a metagame because it is more exhausting to play games.

So, I agree action on Tera needs to take place. There is a lot of opinions in favour of decisive action without middle ground options. This, I do not agree win. I think it is irresponsible to take action on tera past a ban on Tera Blast until there has been significant time in a meta with Tera Blast. Meta stability takes time, especially as people build for the current state of the meta for tournaments and the like. While this did get a test during LCWL during week 2, that is hardly a sample worthy of note in a tiering discussion.

What difference would Tera Blast make. To begin with it changes the offensive state of the game. People already have adapted to knowing their numbers for offensive tera for most sets. Thinks like Tera Rock Rock Blast Shellder, Tera Bug First Impression Nymble, Tera Dark Sucker Punch Diglett are known calcs which most players already have front of mind. What is frustrating is when things like Tera Electric Tera Blast Shellder comes out, when Tera Ice Diglett rears its head, when Little Timmy runs Tera Ice Pichu bc he wants to use it and you lose your Toedscool.
I think what is being lost in this discussion is the option reduction that a Tera Blast ban would bring.

Lets look at Diglett, it would be reduced down to offensive moves within its arsenal. It lost Aerial Ace, has no Ice moves. In short, it's going to have to run from a lead Toed, it's also going to be less reliable at trapping into defensive teras. It's still able to dodge things like opposing Diglett and Pawns but it loses offensive scope.

Then we have ghosts and Gothita. A lot of the craziness is the ability to BOTH escape their weaknesses AND hit the dark types with offensive coverage. Hidden Power is gone, they lose their fighting options, they are tera'ing to build damage on their existing coverage like Tbolt or they defensive tera to fight for 2hkos.

I am not going to argue that I know that this would be enough. It might not be. Hell it probably isn't. But I think it is irresponsible to move to complete irradication or to stop the adhereing to the 'true to cart' that Smogon has held since inception. It deserves testing. I would argue that action should be taken on Tera Blast now, and further action, if required, after Open, being the next major tournament and thus the next time people will care about optimisation.
 
Won't elaborate too much(since I am at the office and need to pretend I am working), but as I already mentioned in this page, I think first step needs to be to Ban trappers. They are the biggest Tera abussers by far and with Tera they choose what they trap and remove. Without Tera they are also problematic Mons, Gothita was banned last Gen, Trapinch used to be banned in SM, Diglett has always been a controversial Mon and both Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are banned in every non Ubers Tiers, they are deemed uncompetitive by definition due to removing the choice of switching out.

If after banning trappers Tera is still deemed problematic (for me personally it's not outside of trappers) , then further steps could be done, such as Tera Blast Ban (I always considered Hidden Power a nocive move that made better already good Mons and didn't help much the rest of them, though Tera Blast is more balanced), Tera Preview, one Tera per team or full Ban as last resort.
 
I want to address some of the issues goldenghost brought about Terastallization. I don't think that there is as much frustration with the state of the meta as he claims. I also don't think that a more shallow pool of Pokemon in itself makes a tier less good. However, about Terastallization more specifically, there are many points he makes that I agree with, but also many that I don't, or many from which I draw different conclusions.

goldenghost said:
1) Tera increases unpredictability in a way that is not skillful.
Click to expand...
Tera obviously increases unpredictability, but I don't think that it's in a non-skillful way. For some of the examples he brings up, he talks about Crabrawler being very dangerous (but not broken at least). Tera clearly makes it more dangerous, but I don't agree with the interactions he mentions. I think clicking Will-O-Wisp against Crabrawler is often a fine play even if the opponent has not used his Tera. It neutralizes any other Crabrawler variants, and against Tera Fire Crabrawler, at least provokes the Tera, which would then make it vulnerable to be revenge-killed by other threats like Diglett, Wingull, or even Toedscool with Tera. If Zorua-H is the Will-O-Wisp user, it can also sometimes afford to Will-O-Wisp on the second turn in some scenarios, and deal damage to it in the meantime. One could then say that two Pokemon are used to deal with just one Pokemon, but I don't think that's an abnormal thing, and on top of that, it's dealing with one Pokemon + the opponent's Tera.
The same principle would apply for "random Tera Blast claims". While I understand that losing a Pokemon randomly like that can be frustrating, I don't see it as such. Usually, when such a thing happens, the opponent usually trades his Tera for one kill, and that Tera will usually remain mostly irrelevant or even detrimental for the rest of the game. I see it as a trade, and while the non-Tera side will be down one Pokemon, he still has his own Tera, that he can potentially use for potentially bigger benefit than the "random" Tera, which is usually random for a reason.
Therefore, I think that Tera is a new standard that we should adapt to. It clearly isn't overly monopolizing unlike Dynamax, it adds more diversity to the game, it still provides an even playing field, and I think knowing how to utilize Tera in the most rewarding way is an additional level of complexity that can add skill requirement to games.

goldenghost said:
2) Tera breaks good mons
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I'll split this in two sections. First, I agree with goldenghost that Tera makes trappers much stronger. While Hidden Power in the past was similar to Tera offensively but significantly weaker, I think Tera does put Diglett in a situation where his Speed and power with Tera make it too much for the tier. I also agree with everything he said about Diglett. However, I still don't believe that we should "ban trapping for the sake of trapping". I think we should ban Diglett if it's broken, and we should also ban Gothita if it's broken. It seems that even Eeveeto would agree with this, from what I understood when he said
Eeveeto said:
(not so much of Wynaut or Trapinch if they come, but they are small price to pay)
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I think that currently, Diglett could be considered broken, but I don't think Gothita has reached that point yet. I guess only time will tell with home coming soon.
However, I do not think it is possible generalize by saying that the addition of Tera will benefit every strong Pokemon. Some will definitely benefit more from others, and that's not necessarily because they were strong in the past. Tera definitely raises the power level, but I don't believe it does so in a monopolizing way, as in it doesn't always require opposing Tera to check itself.
goldenghost said:
There is only so much value in theorymonning, but it is easy to see how returning staples like Vullaby, Mienfoo, Porygon, Abra, and so on could be broken or at least extremely frustrating in a meta with Tera. Some players seem to enjoy playing in a meta with a low power level and a ripe abundance of C-tiers and unmons that can click buttons and win on occasion because of the meta's latent instability. I am not one of those. More centralized metas lead to more skillful play, rather than rewarding who can theorize the cheesiest, least interactive wincon in the builder.
Click to expand...
I've already addressed the frustrating part, I don't think it's frustrating for everyone, neither do I think it has to be frustrating. Also, for those who prefer metas with higher power levels and more Pokemon to choose from and don't like theorymonning, they might enjoy NatDex LC. It has a Discord server (I'd gladly share the Discord to anyone who might be interested), resources, and recently ran a tournament. That could give a better idea of what benefits the most from Tera, and it certainly isn't uniform :)
One note about teambuilding though, if the goal of a Pokemon tournament match is to win, then the ideal is literally to find a path to win that the opponent can interact the least with. This is naturally hard to achieve, but it seems intuitive that people should be rewarded for good teambuilding, game plan, and surprise factors.

TLDR: I don't believe the meta is bad right now. I also believe that Tera is not broken, and that it can add diversity and skill to games. I think Diglett is suspect-worthy in the current meta, mainly due to Tera when compared to previous generations. I don't think trapping in itself is unhealthy in LC, but the trappers could become banworthy if they reveal to be too overbearing.
 
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:diglett: <--- bearer of the curse

Ever since... at least the Girafarig ban, diglett has had an overbearing presence in the meta. The definition of overcentralizing, diglett been seen used in every single game in the latest weeks of LCWL, and for good reason: Its ability to surgically remove portions of the opponents' team, force teras, revenge kill, as well as clean lategame is unmatched by any other mon. It doesn't help that its best answer is itself...

Rogues' Gallery
Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying/Ice/Dark/Whatever you feel in your heart
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute/Tera Blast/Protect
- Rock Blast/Tera Blast
- Sucker Punch/Tera Blast
Able to function effectively both with and without tera, this is diglett's main set. It's able to OHKO the two defensive staples of the metagame, Mareanie and Pawniard, and 2HKO most everything else. It forces your opponent to make lopsided 50/50s whenever it comes in, and not knowing whether it's running tera blast means that there are no reliable answers (other than shellder. not exactly the pinnacle of defense), and you're forced to play a guessing game with instant game-ending consequences.
Diglett @ Eviolite/Air Balloon
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying/Ice
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Stealth Rock/Tera Blast
- Protect/Final Gambit
This variant has a small niche as a lead, but is mainly used to revenge kill opposing diglett, being able to just barely hold on after or dodge an earthquake and deal zero damage in return after a tera flying.
Diglett @ Air Balloon
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
This set is EXCLUSIVELY to attempt to exploit life orb diglett with the aid of trick gothita. The fact that it has seen success in the highest levels of tournament play is itself disturbing.
Diglett @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark/Ice/Flying
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Final Gambit
- Tera Blast
Ok now this is getting silly. This set reliably revenge kills diglett and scarfers such as magnemite and larvesta, but is otherwise a huge opportunity cost of not using the good diglett set.

What was I saying again
The ability Arena trap is fundamentally uncompetitive, and fosters and environment where the opponent is forced into unfavourable situations where they have to constantly guess correctly. With substitute, diglett can even punish attempts to revenge kill it with sucker punch or an attempt to switch out, as diglett is able to beat nearly anything one-on-one with a substitute up. With tera allowing it to simply remove its few counters, diglett should itself be removed from the meta sooner rather than later.

tl;dr ban diglett lol
 
aleaniled said:
:diglett: <--- bearer of the curse

Ever since... at least the Girafarig ban, diglett has had an overbearing presence in the meta. The definition of overcentralizing, diglett been seen used in every single game in the latest weeks of LCWL, and for good reason: Its ability to surgically remove portions of the opponents' team, force teras, revenge kill, as well as clean lategame is unmatched by any other mon. It doesn't help that its best answer is itself...

Rogues' Gallery
Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying/Ice/Dark/Whatever you feel in your heart
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute/Tera Blast/Protect
- Rock Blast/Tera Blast
- Sucker Punch/Tera Blast
Able to function effectively both with and without tera, this is diglett's main set. It's able to OHKO the two defensive staples of the metagame, Mareanie and Pawniard, and 2HKO most everything else. It forces your opponent to make lopsided 50/50s whenever it comes in, and not knowing whether it's running tera blast means that there are no reliable answers (other than shellder. not exactly the pinnacle of defense), and you're forced to play a guessing game with instant game-ending consequences.
Diglett @ Eviolite/Air Balloon
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying/Ice
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Stealth Rock/Tera Blast
- Protect/Final Gambit
This variant has a small niche as a lead, but is mainly used to revenge kill opposing diglett, being able to just barely hold on after or dodge an earthquake and deal zero damage in return after a tera flying.
Diglett @ Air Balloon
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
This set is EXCLUSIVELY to attempt to exploit life orb diglett with the aid of trick gothita. The fact that it has seen success in the highest levels of tournament play is itself disturbing.
Diglett @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark/Ice/Flying
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Final Gambit
- Tera Blast
Ok now this is getting silly. This set reliably revenge kills diglett and scarfers such as magnemite and larvesta, but is otherwise a huge opportunity cost of not using the good diglett set.

What was I saying again
The ability Arena trap is fundamentally uncompetitive, and fosters and environment where the opponent is forced into unfavourable situations where they have to constantly guess correctly. With substitute, diglett can even punish attempts to revenge kill it with sucker punch or an attempt to switch out, as diglett is able to beat nearly anything one-on-one with a substitute up. With tera allowing it to simply remove its few counters, diglett should itself be removed from the meta sooner rather than later.

tl;dr ban diglett lol
Click to expand...


I agree with this, but my only contention is that Arena Trap is not fundamentally uncompetitive, as it was balanced in generation 8. Its the fact that the power level of the tier is very low, whereas Diglett's is signficantly higher and bolstered by Tera. The other trapper, Gothita isn't great in the metagame currently due to being bad versus Pokemon who can Tera. Diglett doesn't need the choice scarf, has a significant variety in the tera types it can use (gothita needs fighting for Pawniard, anything else is asking for trouble, whereas Diglett can use Flying, Ice, Dark or even Fire).

You can trap borderline ANYTHING with Diglett, and theres very little you can use to combat how good it is.

Additional point is that you also have memento to help support the shell smashers. Because of course you do.
 
Probably a better placed post in the simple questions simple answers thread, but Azurill in particular struggles vs water resists since otherwise its too slow to use coverage other than tera water aqua jet after a belly drum. In general, it gets outclassed by shell smashers Shellder and Chewtle. Pokemon either need to be fast and hit hard, trade/sponge hits well, or be dangerous after practical setup/enablers to said setup. if they can do none of that uniquely well its probably why they're not good.
 
Pokemon Home is likely to be compatible with SV within the next few months, but that doesn't stop me from wanting tiering action for our current metagame. In my opinion, Diglett is broken, in large part thanks to Terablast or Terastalization as a whole. Diglett can trap many things with just EQ and Rock Blast, and it is almost guaranteed to take KOes or force and scout Terastalization with Substitute, and can either run sucker punch which beats Gothita and is useful priority, or Terablast, which it can tailor to trap almost anything in the game if it Teras. If it is able to use Terastalization, there is very little consistent counterplay, and trying to use a Terastalized pokemon as counterplay will usually fail into substitute.

The most obvious solution is to just suspect Diglett, as while Tera may be problematic in other aspects, Trappers (mostly dig) are the worst offenders right now by a good amount. Without Terablast or Terastalization, Diglett might not be broken since it would now have defined limits on who can and cannot be trapped, and there are other Tera abusers that straddle the line such as Shellder and Crabrawler. Diglett might still be broken in the limited format, and is certainly broken in the current Terastalization format, so its the simplest solution and probably the best solution provided there isn't enough support to act on other Tera related problems.

Terastalization is a whole other can of worms, and while Tera preview is something I support as a potential suspect, it would not save Diglett, since it can still be broken with just Terablast fly on LO sets and bluff/have Terablast Ice on other sets. Banning it might save Diglett, I don't know, but it would also eliminate 50 50's related to Tera, and people wouldn't have to fear their checks and counters to a threat just not working if they Tera. I think a suspect on Terastalization should happen at some point, but probably not when the metagame is likely to be completely changed in a month.

Terablast is probably the least likely of the 3 options to be a viable suspect, but I think its existence hurts the LC metagame. Its only reliably broken on trappers, but any pokemon could theoretically decide to just take their traditional counter out, and the only ways to stop that are to switch to something else to scout, protect/sub, or Terastalize yourself. Its very high opportunity cost for both a moveslot and Tera, but because its only rarely worth playing around, and the punish is high for not doing so, I think it should be suspected and banned since it makes answering threats a lot less consistent, and makes the better player less likely to win since they can't play around every Tera surprise.
 
BeardedDrakon said:
Pokemon Home is likely to be compatible with SV within the next few months, but that doesn't stop me from wanting tiering action for our current metagame. In my opinion, Diglett is broken, in large part thanks to Terablast or Terastalization as a whole. Diglett can trap many things with just EQ and Rock Blast, and it is almost guaranteed to take KOes or force and scout Terastalization with Substitute, and can either run sucker punch which beats Gothita and is useful priority, or Terablast, which it can tailor to trap almost anything in the game if it Teras. If it is able to use Terastalization, there is very little consistent counterplay, and trying to use a Terastalized pokemon as counterplay will usually fail into substitute.

The most obvious solution is to just suspect Diglett, as while Tera may be problematic in other aspects, Trappers (mostly dig) are the worst offenders right now by a good amount. Without Terablast or Terastalization, Diglett might not be broken since it would now have defined limits on who can and cannot be trapped, and there are other Tera abusers that straddle the line such as Shellder and Crabrawler. Diglett might still be broken in the limited format, and is certainly broken in the current Terastalization format, so its the simplest solution and probably the best solution provided there isn't enough support to act on other Tera related problems.

Terastalization is a whole other can of worms, and while Tera preview is something I support as a potential suspect, it would not save Diglett, since it can still be broken with just Terablast fly on LO sets and bluff/have Terablast Ice on other sets. Banning it might save Diglett, I don't know, but it would also eliminate 50 50's related to Tera, and people wouldn't have to fear their checks and counters to a threat just not working if they Tera. I think a suspect on Terastalization should happen at some point, but probably not when the metagame is likely to be completely changed in a month.

Terablast is probably the least likely of the 3 options to be a viable suspect, but I think its existence hurts the LC metagame. Its only reliably broken on trappers, but any pokemon could theoretically decide to just take their traditional counter out, and the only ways to stop that are to switch to something else to scout, protect/sub, or Terastalize yourself. Its very high opportunity cost for both a moveslot and Tera, but because its only rarely worth playing around, and the punish is high for not doing so, I think it should be suspected and banned since it makes answering threats a lot less consistent, and makes the better player less likely to win since they can't play around every Tera surprise.
Click to expand...
honestly i agree that diglett is pretty broken right now considering how unpredictable it is, though it would probably be best to add tera preview so that pokemon that rely on tera to be good don't get crippled because a mole drawn by a child was too good for the rest of the tier lol. It can also remedy those moments when you instantly lose the game because they doubled their stab moves with no reprocussions.
 
Hello! I am a newer player in LC, but I've played it pretty consistently for a bit with an HO team that seems decent (Hisui-Zorua, Pawniard, Glimmet, Diglett, Crabrawler, and a rotating 6th member), but I've noticed a few things with the meta.

First, Shellder. This thing is an absolute menace. While there are mons that can survive its Liquidation-Rock Blast-Ice Shard combo, it's incredibly tough to take down. A single Parting Shot from a Shroodle or a conventional switch on almost any mon in the meta and a turn later, game over. It's a completely suffocating mon that even with a bit of support can easily smash through anything and everything. Imo it probably should be banned or have its set up neutered in some way because it's incredibly good, though I don't think it will. However, it's still incredibly scary and something that I personally have yet to find a successful counter to. It should probably be suspect tested.

Second, trapping. Gothita and Diglett have no right to exist in this meta. Their inclusion, while helpful for a lot of teams, can easily swing a game. They can easily trap something and take it out within a moment's notice and with games containing Digletts and/or Gothitas on both sides of the field can easily come down to ditto matches and which one predicts the Tera right or wins the speed tie. It should be completely gone from the meta, which could allow for much more diversity in the meta as a whole.

Third, the Big 4. I already touched on Diglett but I want to spend some time on the other members of the Big 4 in my eyes, being Hisuian Zorua, Crabrawler, and Pawniard. (Toedscool should really not be in this conversation at all as it gets blasted by coverage from a lot of mons unsuspectingly) Hisuian Zorua is what everyone turned to once Gastly was banned to the shadow realm, and it's honestly really good as well. The triple immunities from its typing are already a lot to help it out defensively, and then it blasts your team with Bitter Malice, Hex, and Shadow Ball, plus good utility like U-Turn, Will-O-Wisp, and Knock Off. It is VERY good, maybe not ban-worthy but it should be suspect-tested I'd think. Meanwhile, Crabrawler and Pawniard are probably the best mons in the meta aside from Diglett. Crabrawler's coverage is absolutely bonkers, with the coveted Electric-Ice combo along with moves like Drain Punch, Bulk Up, Crabhammer, and Iron Head. While also very good, it seems to be managed well, though a suspect test might be helpful to see if it is truly broken. Pawniard is also a very good mon. A staple of LC for a while now, Pawniard has access to one of the best moves period: Sucker Punch. That, along with Defiant boosting stopping Sticky Web strats, and Brick Break, Iron Head and Night Slash, it can take on many metagame threats with ease. If trapping gets banned, this might also want a suspect test.

Finally, Terastalizing. It's just so good. It turns mons that would otherwise be complete garbage into perfect bait, makes defensive walls with a bad typing good, and is all around amazing. Which is why it probably shouldn't be allowed. LC isn't as well suited to Terastalizing as the main metagames like OU are. It's a lot more fast-paced, and it can screw over mons in an instant. It allows for fun shenanigans and makes a lot more mons viable options, but can also turn into a Terastalize prediction war, like with a Diglett ditto match. The opponent could Tera into Flying so you Rock Blast, but what if they don't? Then what will they think you're gonna do, prevent the EQ instakill or resist the Rock Blast? And then who wins the speed tie? It's a terrible mess, and I'd say it most likely should be hampered in some way. Maybe not straight up banned, just hampered to make it more fair.

Anyways, those are my initial thoughts on Little Cup! It's been fun playing it a lot (though I wish I could've seen the SS meta that was overrun with Mienfoo and Porgyon, but I digress) and I'd love to see where the SV LC meta progresses as Pokemon Home connectivity and the DLC become available!
 
Zahners1 said:
Second, trapping. Gothita and Diglett have no right to exist in this meta. Their inclusion, while helpful for a lot of teams, can easily swing a game. They can easily trap something and take it out within a moment's notice and with games containing Digletts and/or Gothitas on both sides of the field can easily come down to ditto matches and which one predicts the Tera right or wins the speed tie. It should be completely gone from the meta, which could allow for much more diversity in the meta as a whole.
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The thing is, and this has been a thing present for every generation of Little Cup - there are some threats that are almost impossible to beat without trappers and it is much easier to leave the trappers alone than to ban all the threats that they keep in check. Diglett may seem oppressive rn because the BST total of most mons is way lower than in other generations - just compare Diglett vs Mienfoo to Diglett vs Crabrawler, this will all change with HOME methinks.
 
MuffinMelody said:
The thing is, and this has been a thing present for every generation of Little Cup - there are some threats that are almost impossible to beat without trappers and it is much easier to leave the trappers alone than to ban all the threats that they keep in check. Diglett may seem oppressive rn because the BST total of most mons is way lower than in other generations - just compare Diglett vs Mienfoo to Diglett vs Crabrawler, this will all change with HOME methinks.
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"It has always been this way" Is not and should never be an excuse for no action. If there is some broken threat that is kept in check only by another broken threat, the right play is to Ban both of them, not neither.
For me personally Trapping is way more oppressive in LC than in any meta in which it has been banned. Well, not all trapping,but Diglett and Gothita specifically, I am totally fine with Wynaut and Trapinch (even in SM, where it was actually banned).
 
Zahners1 said:
Third, the Big 4. I already touched on Diglett but I want to spend some time on the other members of the Big 4 in my eyes, being Hisuian Zorua, Crabrawler, and Pawniard. (Toedscool should really not be in this conversation at all as it gets blasted by coverage from a lot of mons unsuspectingly)
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I personally disagree, I believe Toedscool is the best mon outside of Diglett. The difference is it probably the best user of Knock Off in the tier, and given the move's limited distribution that is invaluable to have on most teams. Toedscool's defensive profile lets it spread knocks throughout a game, so it is guaranteed to make progress. It also doesn't hurt that it has some of the best hazard control as well, since any Ghost Type switching in to spinblock needs to be prepared to take a Knock Off or potentially a Spore (though this has become rare). It also has good matchups into the best hazard setters in the tier, Pawniard and Glimmet. Imo it is a top 2 mon because it brings great value to most games, mostly because of Knock Off. There is reason teams load up on ice coverage; it is just that valuable to limit the use of opposing Toed in a game. Toedscool is probably going to decline once better Knock off users and hazard control get added through Home and DLC, but right now it looks to me like a top 2 mon.

Zorua-H, while an excellent mon, is a cut below the rest of the 4 you've mentioned. It has an excellent defensive typing that it's stats can't use effectively. Zorua-H's ability to use its utility options like Knock Off and Uturn is hindered because of its lackluster defense. It also doesn't help that it is weak to the best move in Meta, Knock off, which is spammed easily and used by top mon Toedscool. Toed being a good check hurts quite a bit, and using Icy Wind removes the option to use another one of its excellent moves. Zorua-H a good Crab check and can be threatening if progress is made early game because of its great SpA and good Speed tier, but I feel it is just right below the elite because of the defensive stats. I'm glad you're enjoying Little Cup so far!
 
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Charis_Akins said:
Zorua-H, while an excellent mon, is a cut below the rest of the 4 you've mention. It has an excellent defensive typing that it's stats can't use effectively. Zorua-H's ability to use its utility options like Knock Off and Uturn is hindered because of its lackluster defense, crippling it's ability to spread Knock offs and pivot.
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I'd say that the typing and stats almost work hand-in-hand. It isn't overly designed to be used as a defensive mon, more as a cross between utility and offense, which is what makes it really good. Illusion also helps with this, though a skilled player can play around this. (personally I like baiting in Fighting types as having an Illusioned Pawniard and cripple them) Its access to Knock Off and U-Turn can get other mons safe switch-ins, can blast Knock Off spamming Toedscool with a Tera Blast or the aforementioned Icy Wind, and is great as both a lead and a mon sitting in the wings, waiting for action. Hisuian Zorua also doesn't have a bad weakness to a type, with its only one being Dark, something that can easily be managed by Terastalization or the plethora of good Fighting types in the meta. Meanwhile, Toedscool gets countered by a lot of common coverage, like Crabrawler Ice Punches or the ever-increasingly common Tera Ice Tera Blast. (However, this is as always just opinions and us trying to make the other see eye-to-eye with us so this is friendly banter on my part)
 
I can't definitively say I support starting a whole suspect when home is likely coming in a matter of weeks but Diglett is honestly killing a lot of my enjoyment of the tier right now, and I have my doubts that the few extra mons coming in Home will change that. I know I was also anti-diglett in gen 8 but this time it's for realsies.
 
New pokemon coming with home:

Hisui-growlith
Hisui-voltorb
hisui-qwilfish (broken)
hisui-sneasel (broken)
basculons (already banned)
Stantler (possibly broken)
Chespin
Fennekin
Bonkey kong

I dont see how any of these change diglett lol. Tho maybe having ur grookey trapped by a tera flying dig sounds fun to you? I dont think any of these will stop dig from doing its thing at all. The problem isnt just that the mons are weaker, but that tera + trapping is inhenrently broken imo. I dont see the point in waiting for action on diglett.
 
The thing pushing Diglett over the edge this time as opposed to every single gen since gen 6 when we’ve suspected/gotten annoyed with Diglett does seem to be that it can get STAB anything now. A suspect would be good.
 
Last week I personally sent out a survey regarding Terastalization in SV LC, as seen throughout the LC Winter League. I wanted to shed some light in this aspect, since (at least my impression was that) this tour was supposed to help decide on what should we do regarding this controversial topic.
Here are the results, put together by me (proof), alongside my personal commentary and opion:
1682761284279.png

As we can see in this graphic, the slight majority of people (62.2%) think we need to do something about Terastalization. I'm not sure about how the OU test managed this numbers, so I won't comment on that, especially because I think we've gotten similar results in this regard.
1682761493614.png

This is what absolutely everyone voted. As we can see, a third of the people want teras to stay, while over half of the people who want some action want it banned. The other almost-half want it nerfed (we will see in the next spoiler how exactly). Two people voted dnb but then chose an option that didn't really make sense with that, so that's why the dnb count doesnt exactly match with the results above (this graphic is made by me, not Google Forms). There are also 3 people who voted teras to remain in the tier because they want SV LC to be different than the rest (and some user who will remain anonymous (lol) literally just wants to copy OU), and since that is a really bad way of tiering that doesn't follow Smogon guidelines, I didn't really count them (just do the math if you think that's valid somehow).
1682761947465.png

This question basically meant "What's your priority? Which option do you prefer?" between the SV LC slots played in LCWL (those being do not ban, tera ban, tera team preview, 1 tera per team and terablast ban).
As we can see in this graphic, and matching with the previous results, the two most common actions are do not ban and full ban. Out of the nerf options, the most popular is tera preview, with terablast ban and 1tpt being as unpopular. In my humble opinion (I'm a full ban guy), seeing tera in team preview wouldn't help in the slightest. Teras are standardized and have been for a while, the only reason to ban teras would be for the 50/50s and prediction games they create. To prove my point, the deciding LCWL game, tiebreak between bbb and kythr was played in terapreview and was decided on a 50/50 LOOOOL i truly cannot get how did people follow and play this tour and think thats a good option. Furthermore, I think predicting teras on team preview is a skill in itself that can win you matches, and tp would just remove that and leave only the 50/50s. I swear it's beyond me.
So in conclusion, 62% of the people wants something done with tera, with 54% of those wanting it fully gone, and accepting it being nerfed. The other 38% of the people want it to stay, and are undecided between accepting its nerf or ban. Thanks a lot to the 74 people who voted <3
This survey wasn't official whatsoever, and I won't push anything on the council. I just wanted the public opinion to be... public. Do with this information whatever you want.
PS: fucking everyone wanted to ban diglett oh my god the "anything you wanna add" section was fucking filled with that
 
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