Metagame shifts

[Banedon]

Is there really such a thing? Let's take 4th gen DPPt as an example. For the purposes of this thread, let's neglect the fact that some Pokemon (Garchomp, Shaymin-S, etc) were once OU but declared Uber, and simply consider the generation in any given period.

In the beginning, Alakazam and Rhyperior were OU. As the years went by, both dropped to UU, where they acquitted themselves well. The question is, did Alakazam and Rhyperior drop to UU because of metagame shifts, or because of increasing player skill?

Needless to say Alakazam and Rhyperior dropping in usage must have shifted the OU metagame. But one could also argue that Alakazam and Rhyperior simply aren't cut out for OU, and as players realized that, their usage plummeted and eventually they fell into UU. How much of metagame shifts really happen because of the rise of counters and checks, and how much of it is because of increasing player skill / the discovery of new sets and strategies, strategies which players could always have used to high effectiveness but simply weren't aware of?

If I take the player who was #1 on the ladder three years ago playing his best team and match him up against the player currently #1 on the ladder using his best team, who will win? Will the match favour the newer team (who presumably has had more time discovering what the best strategies are), or will it favour the older team (because the new team hasn't adequately prepared for forgotten threats), or will it be a balanced game?

If the new team wins, would it also be possible to argue that (for example) a Darkrai counter in 5th gen OU has always existed but simply hasn't been discovered, and therefore that it is premature to ban Darkrai? After all, there once were calls for Cresselia to be 5th gen Uber, but eventually the metagame learned to deal with her. If the old team wins, would it be fair to argue that the newer players are all copycats who simply follow the strategies used by the top battlers (who were for some reason using Celebi and Scizor at that time), oblivious to completely viable alternatives like Alakazam and Rhyperior? If the game is balanced, would it be possible to say that old teams are better since they prepare against both threats fallen into disuse + not yet invented?

What do you think?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Except Alakazam sucked because Gengar got major buffs and didn't have to use his shit Attack anymore, and Rhyperior's Solid Rock was a complete letdown. It wasn't even taking those Surfs well, lol.

Zam and Rhyperior just sucked in OU, then.

 

[Zacchaeus]

If the time period in between the 2 teams was enough, I think it would be an even match because the way the metagame works is that something is a major threat, so in return a Pokémon or at least a move is implemented to take care of that threat, and then the major threat shifts, thus creating a cycle that will circulate through multiple Pokémon and movesets

 

[Xephyr]

Except Alakazam sucked because Gengar got major buffs and didn't have to use his shit Attack anymore, and Rhyperior's Solid Rock was a complete letdown. It wasn't even taking those Surfs well, lol.

Zam and Rhyperior just sucked in OU, then.

You were trying to tank surfs with Rhyperior? If so, I don't think your assessment of him is very accurate <_<

 

[waterwarrior]

Well I actually used Alakazam late 4th gen (and in 5th gen as well) as an anti-lead, and he worked wonders for me. That kinda proves that the old threats are forgotten when the meta shifts and can find a niche in the fact that no one prepares for it. Also, I read a warstory yesterday posted in October where the opponent was surprised his Garchomp had Fire Fang, so yes. Shifts exists.

 

[PI-Dimension]

Is there really such a thing? Let's take 4th gen DPPt as an example. For the purposes of this thread, let's neglect the fact that some Pokemon (Garchomp, Shaymin-S, etc) were once OU but declared Uber, and simply consider the generation in any given period.

kkkkkkkk

In the beginning, Alakazam and Rhyperior were OU. As the years went by, both dropped to UU, where they acquitted themselves well. The question is, did Alakazam and Rhyperior drop to UU because of metagame shifts, or because of increasing player skill?

both: they were unsuited for the metagame. In a different metagame they could've been amazing with the same set of pokemon.

Needless to say Alakazam and Rhyperior dropping in usage must have shifted the OU metagame. But one could also argue that Alakazam and Rhyperior simply aren't cut out for OU, and as players realized that, their usage plummeted and eventually they fell into UU. How much of metagame shifts really happen because of the rise of counters and checks, and how much of it is because of increasing player skill / the discovery of new sets and strategies, strategies which players could always have used to high effectiveness but simply weren't aware of?

isn't that the same thing? Metagame shift = popularity rise of some sets/popularity/blahblahblah. IE scarf ttar near the end of gen 4

If I take the player who was #1 on the ladder three years ago playing his best team and match him up against the player currently #1 on the ladder using his best team, who will win? Will the match favour the newer team (who presumably has had more time discovering what the best strategies are), or will it favour the older team (because the new team hasn't adequately prepared for forgotten threats), or will it be a balanced game?

balanced on average. # of new sets are irrelevant since most pokemon are maximum potential so easily (ie SD chomp).

If the new team wins, would it also be possible to argue that (for example) a Darkrai counter in 5th gen OU has always existed but simply hasn't been discovered, and therefore that it is premature to ban Darkrai?

iirc sleeptalk heracross was discovered pretty early

After all, there once were calls for Cresselia to be 5th gen Uber, but eventually the metagame learned to deal with her. If the old team wins, would it be fair to argue that the newer players are all copycats who simply follow the strategies used by the top battlers (who were for some reason using Celebi and Scizor at that time), oblivious to completely viable alternatives like Alakazam and Rhyperior? If the game is balanced, would it be possible to say that old teams are better since they prepare against both threats fallen into disuse + not yet invented?

Cresselia became useless with the metagame: the roles it plays were useless.

What do you think?

metagame shifts

 

[Icey The King Of ice]

it has to do with whats popular at the time. for example alakazam lost its ou spot becuase tyranitar and scizor got real popular which both are good counters to alakazam. some pokemon come back after they find a spot agein but because pokemon like scizor are so popular alakazam drops to uu. im not say there not good its just that they cant be used to there potentile because of other pokemon that are popular at the moment.

 

[Bone Dragon]

We must also remember that the tiers are based on usage, not how good/bad a Pokemon is.

Last gen, Dugtrio and Donphan also started out OU iirc, and fell. Why? I don't know for sure. People just learned ways to play around them. That's what a metagame is, a constantly evolving state of checks and balances (like the US government!:D). Also things like Platinum shook things up when Rotom-A was introduced, and HG/SS to some extent, because they brought a few new moves to the table.

 

[Pocket]

Metagame certainly evolves. The biggest shift happens when new move tutors, new abilities, and new Pokemon / formes are introduced to the metagame. The second biggest shift is seen when we ban a Pokemon. A clear example of this is the removal of Latias in DPP gen. The removal of Latias led to the Fire-Water-Grass offensive-defensive core, all of which were stifled by Latias's existence. The presence of Latias and the introduction of Rotom-A have also resulted in the spike of Scarftars, as well as "semi-offensive" teams that utilized Spikes and Rotom-A to keep the Spikes down and maintain offensive pressure.

Even without any drastic changes to the metagame (new released abilities / Pokemon banned), there are also trends that pick up to deal with common threats. For instance, during DPP people utilized Lum Metagross with Bullet Punch + Pursuit to kill Gengar. Even if you look in the recent posts on the suspect discussion thread, you can see how people pick up on underlooked mons to deal with OU threats, or using OU threats differently to enhance their effectiveness.

 

[November Blue]

After all, there once were calls for Cresselia to be 5th gen Uber, but eventually the metagame learned to deal with her.

WHAT?!

Could you provide a link to the thread please?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I never remembered ANYONE calling Cresselia for Ubers... I thought the spotlight was on REUNICLUS, not CRESSELIA.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think he meant to say 4th Gen Ubers, simply because it has Lugia-like defenses.

 

[PokéMontage]

I think it was a typo and he meant to say 4th generation. I'm sure at the beginning of 4th gen there were at least a few people who predicted that Cresselia would be Uber material simply because of the Lugia-like defenses.

EDIT: woo, ninja'd very badly

Anyway, I'm sure the reason Alakazam was OU initially was because people wanted to believe he was OU material. His stats scream "ultimate special sweeper," but unfortunately, he was hit hard by the shift. He lost the elemental punches for coverage and Pursuit becoming physical caused the move to become more common. The typing of his main STAB move was mediocre. Priority being popular was the last straw. He was too vulnerable to the top threats, namely Tyranitar and Scizor. Azelf's existence was also a big problem with its access to Stealth Rock, Explosion, U-turn, and Nasty Plot.

Rhyperior was probably OU because people initially thought Solid Rock was enough to mitigate the horrible set of weaknesses it had. It also had a very shiny base HP/Attack/Defense. Eventually, people realized that his typing was just not good enough to warrant such high usage. Earthquake, Surf, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Bullet Punch, Close Combat...yeah, that's a bad set of moves to be weak to even if you have access to STAB EdgeQuake and a monster Attack stat.

As time goes on, people discover what does and doesn't work. Huge stats are nice to have, but that's not all that matters. You have to have the right typing, the right movepool, good synergy with other popular choices, a useful niche. Its difficult to determine that at first glance, so it's basically up to trial and error until the metagame matures.

 

[Pombo]

Yeah, but how do we explain the "ScarfGar phase" (mid gen4 players know what i'm talking about), even though TTar already existed?

And more, how do we explain that this phase ended? People adapted? Realized that ScarfGar has solid checks/counter?

 

[Prankster]

I remember when the biggest threat was dory in the sand and every team had to find a way to kill it or they are swept. I also remember when Latios was UU. Yeah that did not go well. The 5th gen metagame starts with the usage of new pokes/ new abilities like weather, conkeldurr, ferrothorn, chandelure, etc. When people began to realize older pokes were useful as well, Latios rose from the mid 60s to the top ten. Ferrothorn used to be #1 because of its ability to check this threat, but soon every hidden power I see became fire. Tyrannitar is #1 now because it can check this uber suspec checks for Dory was also found so its usage dropped. So yes, this metagame has evolved quite nicely.

 

[kniteowl]

You can kind of see how the 5th gen metgame will eventually mature into the future already once all Dreamworld abilities pokemon are released, if you check the P-O server, they have a separate DW tier where basically everything known about the game is released and they've already made some bans in the DW tier, the most well known one being Shadow Tag Chandelure.

And you'll have pokemon eventually move into OU like Enccentric Ditto, Contary Serperior and Lightning Rod Zapdos, some pokemon will even change like Breloom getting technician, and unreleased pokemon that will get a OU spot, mainly Genosect and Kerudio, this isn't craved in stone but once all everything is released, if it is released, I'm guessing it'll be similar to the DW tier over in P-O.

Although some pokemon that are deemed Broken in WIFI here aren't deemed broken over at DW P-O so I wonder how Smogon will deal with pokemon that may have been broken before and after certain pokemon/abilities have been released.

Although most of the DW content may never be released or won't be released until the 3rd pokemon game this generation that may also include Move tutors

 

[Banedon]

Yes it was a typo for 4th gen - sorry.

Anyway let's not consider Latias being OU for a period in 4th gen, or look at only Alakazam and Rhyperior. Alakazam and Rhyperior are just examples ... there are a lot more.

it has to do with whats popular at the time. for example alakazam lost its ou spot becuase tyranitar and scizor got real popular which both are good counters to alakazam. some pokemon come back after they find a spot agein but because pokemon like scizor are so popular alakazam drops to uu. im not say there not good its just that they cant be used to there potentile because of other pokemon that are popular at the moment.

Well why are Scizor and Tyranitar so popular? The answer is pretty simple isn't it - they are excellent Pokemon. That they are good counters to Alakazam is a peripheral thing. They tank hits and dish them back, they scout, they have priority, etc. Ostensibly because of the "metagame shift" and Scizor + Tyranitar rising in popularity, Alakazam falls to UU.

The question is, did Alakazam fall to UU because of the metagame shifting? After all, as pointed out by several posters, Alakazam simply was ineffective in 4th gen OU. It's like trying to use Unown in OU. Both Scizor and Tyranitar counter Unown too, but that's not why Unown isn't OU. It's because Unown is simply a terrible Pokemon. Maybe Alakazam is terrible as well, it's just not as obvious. And so Alakazam isn't OU.

It seems to me that people eventually learned that Alakazam (and Rhyperior / Donphan / Dugtrio etc) simply aren't good enough, and so stopped using them. Nothing to do with metagame shifts. Metagame shifts may not even exist at all. Whoever came up with Scarf Tyranitar didn't shift the metagame; he simply created a new, highly-effective set that other players weren't aware of. For a temporary moment then he had an advantage over everyone else, before other people caught on. Other innovations like Colbur Azelf rises for the same reason - people realized that it's generally worth more to protect Azelf from Dark attackers (because astute opponents will know to use Scarf Tyranitar, which is evidently a "better" Azelf killer than whatever was the best Azelf killer in the past) than to carry Sash.

The metagame appears to shift, but in reality it's all players getting better. I suspect therefore two things will happen:

1. Whichever team is top of the 5th gen ladder three years in the future will beat whichever team is top of the ladder right now (assuming no Pokemon banned, etc).
2. Given a long enough time, the metagame will stop changing as powerful new ideas run out.

Implying that future players are better than today's players though would mean that there may exist enough Darkrai checks and counters to keep Darkrai OU, they just haven't been discovered yet ...

 

[PokéMontage]

Well yeah, the metagame shifting is usually a result of people getting better. New sets using pre-existing options are discovered and the game developes around supporting/countering the more threatening sets. The only time when you wouldn't attribute the shift to players getting better would be if certain Pokemon learned key moves mid-generation, e.g. Scizor getting Bullet Punch in Platinum and going from meh to superstar. That's a result of a change in the actual game rather than the players.

Certain Pokemon are just bad, but others like Alakazam aren't necessarily bad as a whole; it's just that they don't perform well when they have to go up against the most popular threats. Cresselia is another good example of this - she's bulky as hell, but she just can't perform her duties well in OU. In the lower tiers, however, she's a beast. She was even banished to BL last generation despite being "bad" in OU, which proves that she wasn't a terrible Pokemon in general. This actually applies to almost all Pokemon in UU and many in RU this generation.

 

[Icey The King Of ice]

I think it all has to do with whats popular or good at the moment. For example in 5th gen there are a ton of dragons running around which in result there are a lot more steels used which also is pretty much the only reason magnezone is sorta popular and is still in ou this gen. If dragonite gets banned which I hope it does sense IMO its too strong sense its almost garented to set up a DD more dragons will get the lime lite as best dragon type. At first garchomp was the best but once he got banned dragonites and also slamences popularity rose as so did haxorus. Also sp defensive jirachi is only popular and used now pretty much to take care of latios and latias. I think after 5th gen will finely settle down dragonite latias latios and slamence will be uber and magnezone will drop to borderline and the metagame will shift rapidly because of the changes.

I know it was a little off topic but i just wanted to piont that out.

 

[Karpi]

You could also talk about how Tentacruel rose up out of the depths to stop Infernape early on. Nobody would have predicted that Tentacruel would become a top pokemon.

Of course Latias screwed this up to some extent...

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

IMO, tentacruel is one of the biggest surprises for me in the metagame changes. It's amazing where he is now, even Uber viable. Sucking up tspikes, laying down tspikes, being a nice special wall, spinner. It's pretty cool.

 

[PokéMontage]

Electivire wasn't very good, he was just popular and that popularity never seemed to wear off for some reason. I still don't really understand it.

 

[UltiMario]

Noob players on the server kept Vire up in usage in 4th gen, Ninjask too.

 

[Virizion]

Noob players on the server kept Vire up in usage in 4th gen, Ninjask too.

At least Ninjask served a real purpose, I agree that it wasn't OU material though.

 

[NijaSkills]

Ninjask and Electivire had niches in Gen 4 OU, and that's what kept their usage up, kind of like Umbreon, which was in and out of OU. Ninjask, like umbreon, was crucial to baton pass, and Electivire was the best Physical Electric move user, which is extremely helpful in countering things like Suicune, Vaporeon, and Gyarados, which were extremely common.