-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame Metagamiate
- Thread starter Pikachuun
- Start date
Tested, it indeed works. Here's a cool Greninja set:
Greninja (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Spikes
- Return
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Ice Beam
Stab ground and fire type return seem pretty cool, but I have never made much good use. Ice beam is standard for Landorous. That said, I only made this set while theorymoning prior to metagamiate hitting the ladder, so it's prepped for OU, not Metagamiate. Ground and fire return seem great for the bulky steel types that plague OU, but I'm not sure how popular they are in Metagamiate.
So, Gale Wings
Tried it, doesn't seem to function, would it or would it not, because it should, shouldn't it?
It IS an ability, that, considering Aerilate should turn moves Flying type, and Flying types get +1 priority with Gale Wings.
The question isn't even addressed in OP, and I'm legitimately curious.
Tried it, doesn't seem to function, would it or would it not, because it should, shouldn't it?
It IS an ability, that, considering Aerilate should turn moves Flying type, and Flying types get +1 priority with Gale Wings.
The question isn't even addressed in OP, and I'm legitimately curious.
"This Ability does not increase the priority of Flying-type Hidden Power, Natural Gift, or Judgment, as they are treated as Normal-type moves before being used."
Taken from Bulbapedia. This is similar to how Aerilate works with Normal type moves and as such it should not be increased in prio.
Also yea bulba sucks jajaja but I'm lazy and cbf to find a diff source
Well, it works in Partners in Crime, so it *should* work in Metagamiate. There must be something wrong with the coding. I have noticed that normal type moves still show up as normal during move selection, so it could be related to that... I'm not a coder though, so I'm just spitballing here.
But I also noticed that Liquid Voice, for the purposes of this game mode, takes priority over Pixilate or... Aqualate? Whatever it's called, they end up being listed as water type, and are treated as such by abilities that effect water type moves.
Also, the normal '+ate' abilities have moves being treated as their CHANGED type, not their original type, for the purposes of items and ability interaction. Gale Wings should work with Aerilate.
I'm thinking that this is the case, at least I'm hoping, it's a little unfair for the OP to assume people wouldn't want to use a +1 priority Aerilated Giga Impact lol
There isn't a scenario in game where you can actually test if -ate abilities treat moves differently than Judgment and stuff as there isn't a way for you to have two abilities on a Pokemon at the same time. Also, I don't understand your Liquid Voice point - Yes, if you use it on a Water Absorb Pokemon it'll be absorbed as that takes the typing into account after it has been changed.
Well, items like Nevermelt Ice boost the strength of Refrigerated normal moves, and as far as Liquid Voice goes, I was using it as an example of how even though those sound based moves are not normally water type, they're still affected by abilities and items that interact with water type attacks.
Gale Wings should therefore interact with Aerilate, if every other scenario of abilities, items, and type changing works, then so should that.
Your point falls to the fact that Plates do not inherently increase the power of Judgment, they just increase the power of moves of that type and change the type of Judgment. The end result is that Judgment is changed, and then boosted, but Gale Wings still does not affect it.
I'm not talking about Judgement, I'm talking about how moves interact with abilities. It stands to reason that, because other move-type changing abilities can interact with items, and the abilities of other Pokemon, that they should interact with Gale Wings.
Since I dont think I clarfied well enough, the closest precedence we have of this instance is changing the type of a Normal type move to Flying type and then giving said Pokemon Gale Wings. Yes, type changing abilities will affect the way those moves are received by the Pokemon - How the items you used in your example work is that they take the type after the change into account. This is why Splash Plate Judgment, Splash Plate Revelation Dance and other stuff work. How Gale Wings works is it takes the type of the move at move selection and uses that to determine if a move should gain increased priority or not. You can say that items boost the power of an already changed move, but if Gale Wings worked like those items it would increase the priority of Judgment, Revelation Dance and Natural Gift as well. It doesn't, however, and the reason for this is that Gale Wings is not coded to care about the type change.
I
All of the examples you've offered could just as easily be a case of the moves themselves being coded to ignore these things, as they are all moves that can not be '+ated', except Natural Gift, which CAN be affected by Ion Deluge if it we're to produce a normal type Natural Gift.
You're missing the point. The focus isn't on if it can be -ated or not, it's the focus on the type change itself. There's no other instance of a move undergoing type change that isn't an -ate ability, so we're working with what we have here. The closest premise to an in-battle type change are those moves. That's the premise. Not if an item affects a move that's had its type changed by ability, as those changes are proven to apply after the type change takes place whereas we're not even sure if Gale Wings takes into account the type after or before. And given that it neglects type changes afterwards, no matter how they're executed, it's probably safe to assume that if in some hypothetical situation we had two ability slots, Gale Wings would stay consistent in how it works.
I like to be optimistic, because Ion Deluge will still turn normal type Weather Ball and Natural Gift into electric type attacks, and even after they've been changed, other abilities like Lightning Rod still interact with them, even though they're Normal Type at selection.
It's hard to say for sure, but I'm just being optimistic.
Besides, the new 'ate' changes still list all the moves as normal type, except Aerilate, Pixilate, Refrigerate, and Ion Deluge, on the Pokemon they're normally found on.
If you're just being optimistic, that's fine. Of course abilities like Lightning Rod still interact with them - The type has changed, and as I've said multiple times, those abilities and items take the typing into account after the change.
As for the -ate changes still being listed as Normal type, I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, if a move is Pixilated, Aerilated, Refrigerated or Deluged in Ions (?) it'll still appear as normal, but that's not really relevant and actually strengthens my point about how the items and abilities only take into account the type of the move after it has been selected and before it's about to be executed.
Sorry to interrupt, but what if this meta was called Crazy -ate? Or what about Metanate? Both have a nice ring to it and drive the meta home imo
Only for moves that change type mid-turn, as far as I can remember, even the IRL games change the type associated with the attack buttons on screen for attacks that ARE changed by the 'ate' abilities, suggesting that the moves are treated as a different type the whole time, not just after selecting an attack, unlike Judgement and Revelation Dance which are just shown to be normal type on screen, all the time, regardless of those abilities, or items held.
You're wrong...
That's why I said 'as far as I can remember", cause I wasn't sure if I did remember correctly.
That said, if you Pixilate a move, the game will for sure still tell you if it is super effective against say, a Dark or Fighting type Pokemon, even if it's a normal move, it will still list "super effective" it pixilated into a dark or fighting Pokemon.
It's hard to say if it should work or not, I want to believe that it would.
Besides, as someone already said, it worked in Partners in Crime, why not here?
What you want to believe doesn't discount the evidence in place suggesting that it wouldn't work in the way you want to.
Also that's a really weak argument, just because one meta had it represented differently and never brought up doesn't make it fine for another meta to do so. I guess in the end it's up to the TLs how they want it to work but like if one meta had a mechanic in one subjective way that's no reason for another meta to follow it.
It should follow it because it's functioning the same way.
Partners in Crime having it work WOULD warrant it working in this case, PiC had Pokemon sharing abilities, if you had a Pokemon with Gale Wings and a Pokemon with Aerilate, then their normal type moves would gain priority because the game is treating them as flying type attacks. The Pokemon essentially had 2 ability slots, why would it not work the same here.
And as far as evidence goes, there is no evidence either for or against Gale Wings and Aerilate working together in the main games. The only instance that it HAS worked has been in the Metagame PiC, in which it worked, because it should.
As I said, this is a subjective representation of a hypothetical mechanic in one game. Regardless of what that metagame did, it's not an in-game mechanic, it's a mechanic the meta leaders chose to implement that way on their own. The "game" isn't treating them in that way, that's the way the sim is treating them. The sim isn't 100% accurate, and in the case of these subjective mechanics it doesn't have any truth to go on so it picks and chooses.
"because it should" That's a pretty bad and subjective argument, a little more evidence would be appreciated considering you said there's no evidence for or against it working in this exact scenario and again, the meta was done that way bc the tl interpreted it that way.
Actually as far as the OP goes it just says that he figures nobody would use Gale Wings in Gen 7, and I most certainly would like to use it in this scenario.
As far as the IRL games go, I already said that 'ated' moves get their effectiveness notification changed depending on the type it's changed to in relation to the Pokemon you're facing. A Normal Type move that has been Pixilated, will show the move as dealing super effective damage against a Pokemon, before selecting the attack itself, which shows that the game is aware of the fact that the move is changed to a different type. It might work, it might not, but I want to believe that it would.
You can disagree, and that's okay, but I don't appreciate being directly shot down because you believe your way is right.
Let's leave it at that and end this here, I've messaged the OP to ask of it's intended or not, and that will be the definitive answer.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
gale wings wont impact ates. there was actual in-game evidence of this last generation. last gen, priority is determined at the very beginning of the round, before even mega evolution was calculated (evidence from last generation's Ate mega evo mechanics, prankster and speed didnt take effect until the next turn, meanwhile ates were immediate) and gale wings being the only of its kind, is assumed to follow suit with consistent mechanics...of last gen.
basically the order it would go would be for each turn:
priority is determined
mega evolution activated(obvs only once)
ate's effects become active
even in this gen, theres proof that priority still takes...uhh... priority over ability alteration's, since removing talonflames ability in doubles with prankster still gives talon the priority for the round iirc.
edit: not saying this couldn't be subject to change, just pointing out that metagamiate has already had this discussion last gen, and there's no conclusive evidence that its changed. and evidence backing up that its still similar to last gen
basically the order it would go would be for each turn:
priority is determined
mega evolution activated(obvs only once)
ate's effects become active
even in this gen, theres proof that priority still takes...uhh... priority over ability alteration's, since removing talonflames ability in doubles with prankster still gives talon the priority for the round iirc.
edit: not saying this couldn't be subject to change, just pointing out that metagamiate has already had this discussion last gen, and there's no conclusive evidence that its changed. and evidence backing up that its still similar to last gen
Last edited:
I would actually like to see video of that if you have any, cause that would settle this fairly quickly haha