Metamons - Where every generation shines

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Gen I Pokemon don't have a Special Stat.

They just use the Gen I type chart and the "Electric is Special and Normal is Physical" rules.
oh derp. how did i mix that up so badly.

anyhow, i find it funny how machamp is noted as a "winner" when in reality it loses its favorite coverage moves (ice punch and knock off) in return for a stab move it doesn't even need (dynamic punch strictly outclasses it lmao) i dont think machamp is a winner in this meta at ALL. heck, machamp even has a better physical move for non noguard sets in CC. loool. how is champ a winner when it loses more then gains.
 
...? it's now neutral to Sucker Punch and Knock Off/Dark in general, it has plenty of support utility it can run (Will O Wisp, Pain Split, Taunt, the list goes on), and is a lightning fast Ghost. It loses its hilarious offensive presence, mostly, but it can still zap things with Thunderbolt and in general has upsides.
That's what I was talking about. I mean, losing out on both your STABs is kind of a bummer.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Gen VI Fairies: Slurpuff, Mega Gardevoir, Florges, Xerneas, Aromatisse, Sylveon, Mega Altaria (!!), Mega Mawile, Dedenne, Carbink, Klefki, Diancie.

Gardevoir doesn't really have the HP to run Wish adequately. It makes far more sense to run Will O Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt.... it also is questionable to run Calm Mind on Mega Gardevoir (Possible, but questionable) since its Physical bulk is so awful you don't need super effective hits to kill it. (Banded Talonflame has good odds of one-shotting it with max HP EVs) You're better off trying to get damage in and switch out where necessary.

Fast, powerful Steel types from Gen VI: Mega Metagross, Mega Lucario

Fast, powerful Poison types from Gen VI: Mega Beedrill, Mega Gengar, arguably Mega Venusaur

Good luck with that scenario. Now, of course I'm assuming you're looking from the perspective of just going first and KOing the Fairy, but...

Fast powerful Steel types before Gen VI: Jirachi is the only Steel type that is so much as 100 Speed base. Scarves help, but are risky.

Fast powerful Poison types before Gen VI: Crobat, Gengar (Good luck with that 65 Attack), Scolipede, Tentacruel (?), some Sun-supported Grass types. (eg Victreebell)

... is only slightly helpful.

You're probably better off trying to get a solid Special wall they can't pick on (Hi Chansey!) and take them down that way. (Plus an answer to Slurpuff)

On the plus side, Sylveon, Diancie and Slurpuff are the only non-Mega Gen VI Fairy types (Other than Xerneas in Ubers) that are already offensively relevant. Mind, Florges might become viable entirely because it's a Gen VI Fairy and isn't complete crap...
I was simply pointing out that it has other options--unlike in standard play right now, it doesn't need to run coverage for the few Gen 6 Fire/Steel/Poison types, allowing it to run boosting moves, recovery, status inducing moves, act as a cleric, etc. since it is fine with simply Pixilate Hyper Voice for an attack. This gives it an effective role, as it can sweep with only two moves (Calm Mind+Hyper Voice) if you like, leaving you open slots to assist your team. It seems like a very low-risk Pokemon to slap on your team in this meta, with many possible rewards as it does its job effectively and is highly customizable. If you want to neuter walls, run Toxic. Scarfers/other fast mons, run T-Wave. Strong physical attackers, run WoW. Need a cleric? Heal Bell. Wish passing? Does that too. Sweeper? Sure, wynaut. There also aren't too many physical Ghost types, so threats from Gen 1 (i.e. Gengar) are Pokemon it can set up on (although, Gengar will probably be rare), partially neutering one of its weaknesses, letting it stay in on more stuff. If status moves are more to your taste that's fine--I was simply posting a set, but it has many options.

EDIT: WOOOOOOO!!!!! 200 posts!!! 20% of the way to getting 1k. I'm a poet and you all know it.
/leaves
 
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If I'm reading this correctly, then anything pre-Gen-6 can.
Defending Pokemon take precedence, so for example Gen 1 Psychics are immune to Ghost even when used by a non-Gen 1 Pokemon.
I would assume that if the defending Pokemon is pre-Gen-6 then these moves would affect them.

Edit: Nevermind, RIP not refreshing.
 
oh derp. how did i mix that up so badly.

anyhow, i find it funny how machamp is noted as a "winner" when in reality it loses its favorite coverage moves (ice punch and knock off) in return for a stab move it doesn't even need (dynamic punch strictly outclasses it lmao) i dont think machamp is a winner in this meta at ALL. heck, machamp even has a better physical move for non noguard sets in CC. loool. how is champ a winner when it loses more then gains.
It also gets Vacuum Wave for STAB priority.

Personally I have never run Ice Punch on Machamp in any meta. Fighting move/Stone Edge/Bullet Punch/Earthquake is the kind of thing I made before Knock Off became available.

Though losing Knock Off sucks.

I was simply pointing out that it has other options--unlike in standard play right now, it doesn't need to run coverage for the few Gen 6 Fire/Steel/Poison types, allowing it to run boosting moves, recovery, status inducing moves, act as a cleric, etc. since it is fine with simply Pixilate Hyper Voice for an attack. This gives it an effective role, as it can sweep with only two moves (Calm Mind+Hyper Voice) if you like, leaving you open slots to assist your team. It seems like a very low-risk Pokemon to slap on your team in this meta, with many possible rewards as it does its job effectively and is highly customizable. If you want to neuter walls, run Toxic. Scarfers/other fast mons, run T-Wave. Strong physical attackers, run WoW. Need a cleric? Heal Bell. Wish passing? Does that too. Sweeper? Sure, wynaut. There also aren't too many physical Ghost types, so threats from Gen 1 (i.e. Gengar) are Pokemon it can set up on (although, Gengar will probably be rare), partially neutering one of its weaknesses, letting it stay in on more stuff. If status moves are more to your taste that's fine--I was simply posting a set, but it has many options.
I just don't see the value of Calm Mind nor Wish. Its HP is bad (hooray 68 HP) so it's a terrible Wish passer, and as self-recovery you basically need Protect and honestly Mega Gardevoir shouldn't be putting that much into trying to stay alive -it can't pull off even being a Special wall, really. Just kill things. While for Calm Mind, the value is only there against very passive teams AKA stall teams, which in turn runs into the problem of Unaware. You're better off carrying moves that punish switches and help take apart Unaware Pokemon, or coverage against what few things can resist you (eg Thunderbolt for Talonflame switch-ins), than you are trying to setup for the sweep -it's just too easy to punish that due to how Physically frail Mega Gardevoir is (65 Defense, pre and post-Mega Evolution, coupled with 68 HP, is crap), and in some ways things are worse than ever on the offense end. No, Heatran doesn't hardwall you anymore, but neither are myriad Fighting, Dragon types, and especially Dark types so scared of you.

+1 252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale (Normal-typed) Dragonite: 171-201 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gives Dragonite one turn to Dragon Dance, at which point Extreme Speed is a OHKO, let alone Iron Head or Earthquake. Or Banded Dragonite can just OHKO you with Extreme Speed, no questions asked.

Yeah +1 Hyper Voice hits really, really hard, but there are bulky Pokemon that Mega Gardevoir used to bring the pain against, and not here. Another example is regular Tyranitar, whom tanks a +1 Hyper Voice, Dragon Dances up, and then OHKOs with Stone Edge. Or it Megas and OHKOs with Crunch, no miss chance.

Calm Mind just seems a waste of a turn when you could be crippling these threats instead, especially since it's so much easier to find a reasonably safe chance to get in, between Gen III/VI shenanigans and the fact that very little resists Fairy. Also because it's not that hard to outspeed 100 base Speed and take it apart, negating the value.

---

Also why do I always find Mega Gardevoir to be good in literally every meta it's silly.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
It also gets Vacuum Wave for STAB priority.

Personally I have never run Ice Punch on Machamp in any meta. Fighting move/Stone Edge/Bullet Punch/Earthquake is the kind of thing I made before Knock Off became available.

Though losing Knock Off sucks.



I just don't see the value of Calm Mind nor Wish. Its HP is bad (hooray 68 HP) so it's a terrible Wish passer, and as self-recovery you basically need Protect and honestly Mega Gardevoir shouldn't be putting that much into trying to stay alive -it can't pull off even being a Special wall, really. Just kill things. While for Calm Mind, the value is only there against very passive teams AKA stall teams, which in turn runs into the problem of Unaware. You're better off carrying moves that punish switches and help take apart Unaware Pokemon, or coverage against what few things can resist you (eg Thunderbolt for Talonflame switch-ins), than you are trying to setup for the sweep -it's just too easy to punish that due to how Physically frail Mega Gardevoir is (65 Defense, pre and post-Mega Evolution, coupled with 68 HP, is crap), and in some ways things are worse than ever on the offense end. No, Heatran doesn't hardwall you anymore, but neither are myriad Fighting, Dragon types, and especially Dark types so scared of you.

+1 252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale (Normal-typed) Dragonite: 171-201 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gives Dragonite one turn to Dragon Dance, at which point Extreme Speed is a OHKO, let alone Iron Head or Earthquake. Or Banded Dragonite can just OHKO you with Extreme Speed, no questions asked.

Yeah +1 Hyper Voice hits really, really hard, but there are bulky Pokemon that Mega Gardevoir used to bring the pain against, and not here. Another example is regular Tyranitar, whom tanks a +1 Hyper Voice, Dragon Dances up, and then OHKOs with Stone Edge. Or it Megas and OHKOs with Crunch, no miss chance.

Calm Mind just seems a waste of a turn when you could be crippling these threats instead, especially since it's so much easier to find a reasonably safe chance to get in, between Gen III/VI shenanigans and the fact that very little resists Fairy. Also because it's not that hard to outspeed 100 base Speed and take it apart, negating the value.

---

Also why do I always find Mega Gardevoir to be good in literally every meta it's silly.
Gardevoir actually can function as a decent Wish passer for offensive teams, as most of them tend to have low HP anyway. I used a SpD version of regular Gardevoir as a Wish passer+cleric in monotype and it was successful. If you dislike Calm Mind, fine, run Toxic for Quagsire and Clefable--the only point I am trying to make is that it is very customizable to help fit in with your team, and it CAN run sweeper sets effectively vs. stall once Unaware mons are gone as it has great coverage in one move. I'm not saying you have to run Calm Mind, I'm simply saying it is a viable option for a huge threat in this metagame. Plus, if you can do 50-60% to Dragonite and break Multiscale (if Rocks are up that's a OHKO I think, right?) then it can be revenge killed more easily.
 
oh derp. how did i mix that up so badly.

anyhow, i find it funny how machamp is noted as a "winner" when in reality it loses its favorite coverage moves (ice punch and knock off) in return for a stab move it doesn't even need (dynamic punch strictly outclasses it lmao) i dont think machamp is a winner in this meta at ALL. heck, machamp even has a better physical move for non noguard sets in CC. loool. how is champ a winner when it loses more then gains.
"Strictly" outclasses it? Focus Blast is more powerful than Dynamic Punch. The only advantage DP has over FB is confusion hax, and you really shouldn't be relying on that.

Not to mention the fact that it's exactly as powerful as CC except that it doesn't lower your defenses. And, as Ghoul King mentioned, it gets STAB priority in the form of Vacuum Wave. Yeah, losing Knock Off is a letdown, but I don't think Dark type coverage will be quite as valuable as it is in standard play, since the Gen I Psychic types that are inevitably going to dominate this meta aren't even weak to it.
 
These are the notable moves which can go from physical to special or vice versa in this meta.

Normal:
  • Boomburst: Only Swellow has any potential to abuse this.
Fighting:
  • Focus Blast: Breloom, Dragonite, Hariyama, Machamp, and Snorlax benefit from having a strong physical fighting attack, but that doesn't necessarily make any of them good.
  • Vacuum Wave: Hariyama, Heracross, Machamp, Medicham (non mega), and Scizor (non mega) appreciate physical fighting type priority.
Flying:
  • Hurricane: Only Dragonite can take advantage of this.
Poison:
  • Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave: Nidoking is the only Pokemon I can think of that actually can use the physical poison type attacks well.
Ground:
  • Earth Power: Nidoking and Steelix can take advantage of Sheer Force with this, but everything else is better off with EQ.
Rock: Nothing can really take advantage of physical Power Gem.

Bug: Scizor getting to use Bug Buzz / Silver Wind is the only thing of note here.

Ghost: All the physical Ghost types who would like a physical Shadow Ball come Gen IV or later.

Steel: Pretty much any Steel type with Flash Cannon already has Iron Head.

Fire: Regular Charizard is the only Pokemon that somewhat benefits from a special Flare Blitz. Yeah, just stick to Mega Charizard X or Y. Pretty much everything which gets Fire Punch gets Flamethrower except for Alakazam.

Water: Scald > Waterfall

Grass: Only Exeggutor wants a special Wood Hammer. Venusaur likes the special Power Whip, but mega evolving makes it go back to a physical move.

Electric: Specs Raichu might have some potential with special Volt Tackle and Knock Off. Thunderbolt is better than Wild Charge and Thunder Punch.

Psychic: There is basically no reason to use Zen Headbutt when Psychic and Psyshock are available.

Ice: Articuno is the only Pokemon which wants a special Ice Shard more than a physical one. Good luck with that.

Dragon:
  • Outrage: If you want a strong, spammable Dragon STAB for Latios, this might have some use over Draco Meteor, but I still think the latter is better since you don't get locked in.
Dark:
  • Knock Off: There are a few Pokemon which can take advantage of a special Knock Off. Alakazam, Gengar, Manaphy, Mew, Omastar, and Tentacruel are the notable ones.
  • Sucker Punch: Celebi, Gengar, Houndoom, Latias, and Mew are the Pokemon I can think of which make use of special Sucker Punch.

Unfortunately, it looks like going back to the Gens 1-3 physical / special split harms a lot more Pokemon from those generations than it helps. The theorymoning seems really limited here.
 
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Boomburst: Only Swellow has any potential to abuse this.
Flygon, though it's not a thrilling possibility, being actually weaker than STAB Earthquake when otherwise equal.
Rock: Nothing can really take advantage of physical Power Gem.
... not even Persian? Really?

Ghost: All the physical Ghost types who would like a physical Shadow Ball come Gen IV or later.
Banette has more Attack than Special Attack, as does Shedinja.

Steel: Pretty much any Steel type with Flash Cannon already has Iron Head.
Not strictly accurate, but the only pre Gen IV exception is Magneton... and its not a Steel type and its Attack is less than half its Special Attack.

Fire: Regular Charizard is the only Pokemon that somewhat benefits from a special Flare Blitz. Yeah, just stick to Mega Charizard X or Y. Pretty much everything which gets Fire Punch gets Flamethrower except for Alakazam.
Ninetales, who gets Nasty Plot but not Swords Dance. Also Grumpig, Ludicolo, Gardevoir... there are several Pokemon that get Fire Punch but not Flamethrower and are Specially inclined.

Focus Blast: Breloom, Dragonite, Hariyama, Machamp, and Snorlax benefit from having a strong physical fighting attack, but that doesn't necessarily make any of them good.
Kangaskhan, Golem, Marowak, Nidoking (Sheer Force!), Sandslash, Miltank, Tyranitar, Aggron (It has Superpower, but this doesn't weaken it to use), Regirock, Registeel, Slaking... all of these are Gen I-III, get Focus Blast, don't get Close Combat.

I'm trying to imagine by what definition Dragonite is bad, when it loses its Fairy weakness and retains pretty much everything that makes it good. At worst its movesets might be a bit more awkward at times.

Vacuum Wave: Hariyama, Heracross, Machamp, Medicham (non mega), and Scizor (non mega) appreciate physical fighting type priority.
Poliwrath. No it does not get Mach Punch.

Hurricane: Only Dragonite can take advantage of this.
Not strictly accurate, because regular Pidgeot has more Attack than Special Attack. (But really, you'll be using Mega Pidgeot) There's also Shiftry, who has more Attack than Special Attack, though that's iffy since its STABs are both Special and it's only a 10 point difference.

Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave: Nidoking is the only Pokemon I can think of that actually can use the physical poison type attacks well.
Dugtrio, Crawdaunt, Qwilfish, and Quagsire all get Sludge Wave, are from Gen I-III, and have more Attack than Special Attack, by quite the margin for the first three. For Dugtrio it can be a coverage move against pesky Grass types. (And to a lesser extent Flying and Bug, but Rock Slide does that better)

Scizor getting to use Bug Buzz / Silver Wind is the only thing of note here.
And Flygon and Ninjask can run Bug Buzz. Flygon in particular appreciates having a Physical attack for wrecking the Grass types that resist its Ground STAB.

Water: Scald > Waterfall
Golduck and Masquerain appreciate having Special priority in the form of Aqua Jet -and don't tell me nobody uses Golduck, because Cloud Nine is enough to cause it to show up on teams. (Masquerain is likely to remain crap, particularly since Quiver Dance synergizes poorly with its STABs being both Physical)

Psychic: There is basically no reason to use Zen Headbutt when Psychic and Psyshock are available.
Actually, Jirachi arguably appreciates the silly combination of Calm Mind+Zen Headbutt. Kind of a silly plan, but it's got something over Psychic/Psyshock.

Unfortunately, it looks like going back to the Gens 1-3 physical / special split harms a lot more Pokemon from those generations than it helps. The theorymoning seems really limited here.
You're ignoring lots of weird things like Alakazam getting the Elemental Punches as Special again. Gengar appreciates having Fire Punch be Special again, for instance. Just looking at the top moves and the top 'mons doesn't give you a complete picture of the effects. Another example is that Serperior gets Aqua Tail but not Surf or Scald -and of course it far prefers to run Special now that it has Contrary Leaf Storm. It also appreciates Special Knock Off and Special Outrage while we're at it. The list you made is not remotely representative of what the meta will look like.

---

Interestingly, Magneton is more notably different compared against Magnezone than in Standard, since it's a pure Electric type rather than part Steel. This in particular gives it no double weakness to pick on, making Eviolite Magneton arguably even tougher in spite of its reduced set of resistances/immunities.
 
Ghoul King, my list was focused on things which could actually be viable (and some of those were a stretch). I highly doubt Flygon, Banette, Shedinja, etc. will be any more viable in this meta than they are in OU. Dragonite with Flying STAB and Fighting coverage sounds cool until you actually start using it and whiff 30% of the time. Serperior is Gen V, so Aqua Tail and Knock Off are not helping it.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
Does this mean that since Fairy / Steel didn't exist in gen 1, gen 1 pokemon using Dragon type moves are basically unresisted? So I can just spam Choice Band Dragonite Outrage?
 
Does this mean that since Fairy / Steel didn't exist in gen 1, gen 1 pokemon using Dragon type moves are basically unresisted? So I can just spam Choice Band Dragonite Outrage?
As it is now, the type chart is based on the defending Pokemon's generation, not the generation of the attacking Pokemon, so Steel and Fairy types would resist Outrage. Outrage is a special move for Gens 1-3 Pokemon, so you won't want to do CB Outrage on Dragonite.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Ninetales, who gets Nasty Plot but not Swords Dance. Also Grumpig, Ludicolo, Gardevoir... there are several Pokemon that get Fire Punch but not Flamethrower and are Specially inclined.

Another example is that Serperior gets Aqua Tail but not Surf or Scald -and of course it far prefers to run Special now that it has Contrary Leaf Storm. It also appreciates Special Knock Off and Special Outrage while we're at it. The list you made is not remotely representative of what the meta will look like.
Ninetales gets Flamethrower and Fire Blast, and Serperior is Gen 5, so it is after the split.

This is so fucking complicated, least user friendly meta ever. It seems nice though, for those who frequent the forums
Nobody said you had to like it, nor is it a requirement for OMs to be simple. And actually, all you've gotta do is look on the thread--Eevee General has provided the type charts for each gen and the gens affected by the split (and how the split works), and I've provided lists of all of the Pokemon that fall into each category.
 
Ninetales gets Flamethrower and Fire Blast, and Serperior is Gen 5, so it is after the split.


Nobody said you had to like it, nor is it a requirement for OMs to be simple. And actually, all you've gotta do is look on the thread--Eevee General has provided the type charts for each gen and the gens affected by the split (and how the split works), and I've provided lists of all of the Pokemon that fall into each category.
I never said I didn't think it was a good metagame. I'm only saying that it's extremely complicated, especially for new players. It's difficult even to grasp, as some players even joined this generations and will have no idea how fifth gen even functioned.

Edit since I'm being awfully pessimistic:
I can see this meta going two ways to make it less complicated:
1: Every pokemon experiences the special and physical split, at any moment.
2: We add a new weather effect, one that changes what generation your in. Call it timezones or something, and it cycles randomly through the different generations. When it's set in the generation 1 your +4 Clefable is suddenly OHKO'd by Conkuldurr.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I never said I didn't think it was a good metagame. I'm only saying that it's extremely complicated, especially for new players. It's difficult even to grasp, as some players even joined this generations and will have no idea how fifth gen even functioned.

Edit since I'm being awfully pessimistic:
I can see this meta going two ways to make it less complicated:
1: Every pokemon experiences the special and physical split, at any moment.
2: We add a new weather effect, one that changes what generation your in. Call it timezones or something, and it cycles randomly through the different generations. When it's set in the generation 1 your +4 Clefable is suddenly OHKO'd by Conkuldurr.
That makes no sense and I would never do that. It has no basis in the premise, which if you read carefully, is easy to understand if you remember when the split occurred and know the nuances of type effectiveness from older generations. If not, and as InfernapeTropius11 said, all the charts are laid out for you.

Please don't bog down my thread.
 
Starmie is also going to love losing its Dark and Ghost weaknesses. Nothing else has really changed for it, and nothing needed to. Yeah, the Gen 1 Psychics are probably going to push up the usage of bugs. Bugs with 100 base speed or more could be pretty important to help check Mew.

I expect Mega Beedrill would see a lot more usage just because of Adaptability U-Turn. It keeps momentum, Modest Chlorophyll Exeggutor in Sun is outsped, Alakazam and Starmie are outsped, and even Mega Gardevoir has a 50% chance to be OHKO'd by it. Scolipede and Durant can easily revenge kill Mew and Mega Gardevoir. Scyther can wear Mew down with U-Turns. +1 Bug Buzz from Volcarona OHKOs 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew after SR damage. If Sub sets become common for Gen 1 Psychics, Infiltrator Ninjask might become viable. Its taken a few generations, but bugs might finally actually keep Gen 1 Psychics in check like they were supposed to.

Electric: Specs Raichu might have some potential with special Volt Tackle and Knock Off. Thunderbolt is better than Wild Charge and Thunder Punch.
Eh, I had hope for it, but Thundurus-Therian almost completely outclasses it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Thundurus-Therian has no recoil, slightly more bulk, recovery through Volt-Absorb, and better coverage. It also retains Steel resistance that Raichu loses. All Raichu's got is Lightning Rod, Special Knock Off (I'm not sure if this is enough to make Raichu worth it), special Heart Stamp for flinching and no Rock/Ice weakness. Raichu might've had enough of a niche if it could learn Surf with Volt Tackle+Lightning Rod, but it can't.

Ah well, I guess I can post a couple sets for it if anyone wants to use it anyway. Maybe it'll do better than I think it will.


Raichu @ Zap Plate
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Knock Off
- Grass Knot / Heart Stamp / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot
Raichu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Knock Off
- Grass Knot / Heart Stamp / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch / Thunderbolt
Raichu @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Knock Off
- Heart Stamp
- Thunder Wave
 
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Ninetales gets Flamethrower and Fire Blast, and Serperior is Gen 5, so it is after the split.
Yeah I derped on Serperior. Keeping this stuff straight is a pain.

But Flare Blitz is stronger and more accurate than Fire Blast (And of course way stronger than Flamethrower), so that doesn't change that point at all. A better argument would be trying to convince me Ninetales can't take the recoil damage. (Which I disagree with, mind, but it's at least an actual problem with Flare Blitz Ninetales)

Ghoul King, my list was focused on things which could actually be viable (and some of those were a stretch). I highly doubt Flygon, Banette, Shedinja, etc. will be any more viable in this meta than they are in OU. Dragonite with Flying STAB and Fighting coverage sounds cool until you actually start using it and whiff 30% of the time. Serperior is Gen V, so Aqua Tail and Knock Off are not helping it.
Again, Serperior derp yeah.

My point is A: you seem to have focused mostly on STAB and "already OU" threats, which is very incomplete and B: you are underestimating the degree to which the meta is just plain going to be different. (Ninetales does have the flaws that it loses its Ice, Fairy, and Steel resists, and gets nothing in return defensively, making it even more frail) Yeah, I don't expect Shedinja to be a top-tier threat, but honestly it basically flatly benefits from this meta, since Shadow Ball does not make contact and hits harder than Shadow Claw, and same for Bug Buzz over X-Scissor, so it's certainly worth commentary regardless, especially when so many other Pokemon (Including normally viable ones) just plain suffer.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Yeah I derped on Serperior. Keeping this stuff straight is a pain.

But Flare Blitz is stronger and more accurate than Fire Blast (And of course way stronger than Flamethrower), so that doesn't change that point at all. A better argument would be trying to convince me Ninetales can't take the recoil damage. (Which I disagree with, mind, but it's at least an actual problem with Flare Blitz Ninetales)
You actually didn't mention Flare Blitz--you said Fire Punch. And, it isn't taking too many hits, so it hates the recoil--it can be easily revenge killed by priority, and it loses its resist to Scizor's Bullet Punch (who benefits a lot from this Meta, gaining technician physical Silver Wind) and will likely be a big threat in this meta as well, since it can keep more frail fairies in check.
 
I never directly linked Ninetales to Fire Punch, and didn't think to be more explicit because, well, it's so obvious Ninetales doesn't get Fire Punch.

Regardless, Ninetales is terrible at surviving things in general, so I'm of the opinion that if you're doing something like Choice Specs Fire Blast Drought Ninetales you might as well go all-in and replace Fire Blast with Flare Blitz. You're OHKOed by so many things anyway that the chipping damage from the recoil is kind of irrelevant.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
I never directly linked Ninetales to Fire Punch, and didn't think to be more explicit because, well, it's so obvious Ninetales doesn't get Fire Punch.

Regardless, Ninetales is terrible at surviving things in general, so I'm of the opinion that if you're doing something like Choice Specs Fire Blast Drought Ninetales you might as well go all-in and replace Fire Blast with Flare Blitz. You're OHKOed by so many things anyway that the chipping damage from the recoil is kind of irrelevant.
True, but any hit that you could have originally tanked you can't anymore. It is an option for a nuke tho, and Sun+Specs+STAB+Special Blitz WILL hit hard
 
True, but any hit that you could have originally tanked you can't anymore. It is an option for a nuke tho, and Sun+Specs+STAB+Special Blitz WILL hit hard
You're better off just using Banded Darmanitan to nuke shit if you really want to go that route. If your opponent has Chansey, Ninetales will probably take as much % damage in recoil as it does to Chansey. Ninetales also doesn't have the speed to be a glass cannon.

Edit: Yeah, Ninetales gets special Flare Blitz, but when you have the choice between a physical wallbreaker and a special wallbreaker with roughly the same type and raw power, you'll usually want to go with the physical wallbreaker because there is no physical version of Chansey. Ninetales shares the same problems as CB Darmanitan: SR weakness, no bulk, very average speed for an offensive Pokemon, and suicidal with its STAB. I was only making the comparison to illustrate why I don't think Ninetales is any good even with special Flare Blitz.
 
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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
You're better off just using Banded Darmanitan to nuke shit if you really want to go that route. If your opponent has Chansey, Ninetales will probably take as much % damage in recoil as it does to Chansey. Ninetales also doesn't have the speed to be a glass cannon.
The whole point is that it is special Blitz, so Darmanitan doesn't do it better. And who keeps a special attacker in on Chansey if it lacks Knock Off+strong Fighting moves?
 
Sorry that I'm being critical to this meta, but is this code able? And It does seem fun, though complicated. I'd like Eevee to abuse his power so we can play this as quickly as possible
 

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