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It seems like the code to do this is still hardcoded to the format "Gen 7 Metronome Battle". I'm going to try to update this via github
EDIT: My quick and dirty edit. I think this will add back the 252x6 suggested stat spreads, plus the part that automatically adds 252 to every other stat when you type something in one.
EDIT 2: Today I did notice the sliders weren't working so good. This might be a better explanation for why recent games seemed so overpowered.
While you're at it, plop Libero into the ability banlist for the format, haha. I've found it to be no less broken than protean (the quirk that your type changes to Normal first really doesn't do anything).
e: Perish Body as well. Low Speed already determines enough games with regular perish song alone. Being able to reliably produce that wincon is nuts.
While you're at it, plop Libero into the ability banlist for the format, haha. I've found it to be no less broken than protean (the quirk that your type changes to Normal first really doesn't do anything).
e: Perish Body as well. Low Speed already determines enough games with regular perish song alone. Being able to reliably produce that wincon is nuts.
F. I assume Sand Spit is getting blown away too, sorry for banning all your new teams fwqef but the chip damage is too good. Imagine this unchecked and taking over ladder, with fights for the future determined by Magic Guard and Safety Goggles.
I felt Ice Scales was very strong for tanking from Turn 1 with its full potential (stacking multipliers w/ Eviolite), with single digit percentages being common, but Dauntless Shield seemed close performance-wise. In hindsight, most of my experiences may have been against imperfect EVs anyway.
I also have to concede on Libero for similar reasons; after being on both sides of it, I have to admit it's a powerful ability. Players using it likely knew enough to have full EVs or at least pumped attack up, and the resulting (usually) double impact was destructive, especially with the strongest moves.
What's the word on Normalium Z? I figure if things are due to be changing, might as well do it all in one swoop. #freeSchooling
I'll attempt this sometime tomorrow or the weekend if nobody else has by that point. In the meantime, any other opinions on the new generation or bans so far? I'm hoping to try out Gulp Missile soon. Countering for -25% HP + paralysis/-1 def sounds like fun + not reliable enough to get banned.
F. I assume Sand Spit is getting blown away too, sorry for banning all your new teams fwqef but the chip damage is too good. Imagine this unchecked and taking over ladder, with fights for the future determined by Magic Guard and Safety Goggles.
I felt Ice Scales was very strong for tanking from Turn 1 with its full potential (stacking multipliers w/ Eviolite), with single digit percentages being common, but Dauntless Shield seemed close performance-wise. In hindsight, most of my experiences may have been against imperfect EVs anyway.
I also have to concede on Libero for similar reasons; after being on both sides of it, I have to admit it's a powerful ability. Players using it likely knew enough to have full EVs or at least pumped attack up, and the resulting (usually) double impact was destructive, especially with the strongest moves.
What's the word on Normalium Z? I figure if things are due to be changing, might as well do it all in one swoop. #freeSchooling
I'll attempt this sometime tomorrow or the weekend if nobody else has by that point. In the meantime, any other opinions on the new generation or bans so far? I'm hoping to try out Gulp Missile soon. Countering for -25% HP + paralysis/-1 def sounds like fun + not reliable enough to get banned.
Aye, Sand Spit isn't any less of a threat than Sand Stream. Additionally, if you want to mark Normalium as freed by all means do that as well. I'm not quite sure if it even works properly, although it likely does in the National meta by now, so it should be good to go.
F. I assume Sand Spit is getting blown away too, sorry for banning all your new teams fwqef but the chip damage is too good. Imagine this unchecked and taking over ladder, with fights for the future determined by Magic Guard and Safety Goggles.
I felt Ice Scales was very strong for tanking from Turn 1 with its full potential (stacking multipliers w/ Eviolite), with single digit percentages being common, but Dauntless Shield seemed close performance-wise. In hindsight, most of my experiences may have been against imperfect EVs anyway.
I also have to concede on Libero for similar reasons; after being on both sides of it, I have to admit it's a powerful ability. Players using it likely knew enough to have full EVs or at least pumped attack up, and the resulting (usually) double impact was destructive, especially with the strongest moves.
What's the word on Normalium Z? I figure if things are due to be changing, might as well do it all in one swoop. #freeSchooling
I'll attempt this sometime tomorrow or the weekend if nobody else has by that point. In the meantime, any other opinions on the new generation or bans so far? I'm hoping to try out Gulp Missile soon. Countering for -25% HP + paralysis/-1 def sounds like fun + not reliable enough to get banned.
Lol np. I was using them because it was broken. But there is another broken ability which is...
Since we are fixing things now, I suggest we ban Neutralizing Gas. It is the most broken ability imo. This ability has no counters and it can shut down other people’s teams which may revolve around using an ability. The worst it can do is provide equal standing with your opponent. It is also very anti-fun since you don’t get to see any abilities proc during the game, and as I said it shuts down a lot of potentially fun strats revolving around abilities.
Also, I stressed this countless times but can we add back ranked format please. I really don’t understand what is the hold back from adding the ladder. It can also benefit the format in numerous ways, including:
1. incentivizing people for playing the game
2. making the game more fun because there is elo on the line like betting chips on a card game
3. People are able to test the success of their team.
Since we don’t know when ranked/unranked/blitz ladders will be availible for all formats, I suggest we add it in the meantime. There’s nothing to lose really, just change a single boolean value and the format becomes slightly more interesting to play.
Lol np. I was using them because it was broken. But there is another broken ability which is...
Since we are fixing things now, I suggest we ban Neutralizing Gas. It is the most broken ability imo. This ability has no counters and it can shut down other people’s teams which may revolve around using an ability. The worst it can do is provide equal standing with your opponent. It is also very anti-fun since you don’t get to see any abilities proc during the game, and as I said it shuts down a lot of potentially fun strats revolving around abilities.
Also, I stressed this countless times but can we add back ranked format please. I really don’t understand what is the hold back from adding the ladder. It can also benefit the format in numerous ways, including:
1. incentivizing people for playing the game
2. making the game more fun because there is elo on the line like betting chips on a card game
3. People are able to test the success of their team.
Since we don’t know when ranked/unranked/blitz ladders will be availible for all formats, I suggest we add it in the meantime. There’s nothing to lose really, just change a single boolean value and the format becomes slightly more interesting to play.
Gotta agree with fwqef here.... Frankly, I don’t understand the point of not making it a ladder format because basically everything else is ranked and unranked ladder probably hurts this meta a lot. A few of my friends stopped playing because of this change.
Power Spot looks pretty cool, though unlike Friend Guard it's probably better to use it to stack boosts on 1 guy.
I have to agree on the ladder issue too, though I'm also thankful for now that they kept Metronomes in mind when moving into gen 8, guess our actions spoke louder than our words. Still surprised we even got a second chance at all.
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Update night has delivered. Teambuilder EVs are maxing by default, and the new bans are in place. Over the course of today I encountered multiple Liberos and the power of Perish Body + Dynamax for the first time, pretty good strats when they (usually) work. Hopefully the quality of battles will improve as a result, keeping people on the same playing field.
On a more general note, it seems the rest of the sig moves got removed from the pool, and Sirfetch'd's Leek's in.
Long have we waited, Normalium Z has finally been legislated. How will this affect the meta? Judge by the first trial and/or try it yourself.
It works (mostly) fine, but its interaction with Dynamax surprised me. You can't dynamax while the Z-move checkbox is there, but after using it you're free to do so, unlike manual mega evolution. (Altaria does not get any option to Dynamax in the screenshotted scenario.)
I would prefer if it showed the base move like Gen 7 does, but I guess it's too late to ask for. Normalium Z outdated
EDIT: Man imagine libero + normalium Z. What a hit that would be.
EDIT 2: After about 50 straight games I have gotten very familiar / tilted with normalium z. You either get a nice 2HKO off the bat or a wasteful status move. Wishiwashi can get like 20% hits even at NVE. This item is very good if you like gambling. I only ever got an ohko twice and it was both with a SE crit turn 1.
Leek Sirfetch'd is pretty fun, combined with Super Luck you have a reliable killing machine. 100% crits off a RESPECTABLE 135 attack stat is nice. Now if you go Sniper you get 2.25x instead of 1.5x on crits, but it's down 50% chance to crit. But then if you tack on a power shot you get 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.3 = 2.925x damage, a 50% chance for triple damage on every move. Who can pass up that turn 1 potential? Here's a quick highlight reel, there actually wasn't that much but I had fun today. Leverage the RNG for high risk @ high reward. Thank you game freak. EDIT: Imagine this with Libero, basically better for the always 50% boost unless you would've rolled a STAB Fighting move otherwise. Actually, Intrepid Sword would also be a +1 for physical moves. With Power Spot that's 1.5*1.3 = 1.95, about less than double damage on just regular physical hits. More general, but doesn't help on the Special side and also more susceptible to stat changes. Worth it? Probably not for me, I'll stick to crits.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sniper Farfetch'd Bolt Strike (170 bp) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 655-772 (215.4 - 253.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
EDIT: I forgot the Life Orb / Power Spot boost in my first revision, before it was about 194%.
Lust (Wishiwashi-School) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Power Spot
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Metronome
EDIT 3:
Comparing performance with the best phys attacker (Gorilla Tactics/Choice Band Mega Heracross) in the same scenarios (Analytic/Life Orb for Power Spot's 30% boost, same enemy). I'll give Sirfetch'd the crit because that's what's keeping him competing.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Heracross-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mew: 540-636 (133.6 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sniper Farfetch'd Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mew on a critical hit: 427-503 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Both are strong, but Heracross is still the superior physical attacker. Though you would usually run two equal Mega Heracrosses, and not devote a slot to Power Spot.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mew: 415-489 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sirfetch'd's critical barely wins out. Now let's compare with special moves.
252 SpA Analytic Heracross-Mega Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mew: 62-73 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Heracross-Mega Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mew: 48-57 (11.8 - 14.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sniper Farfetch'd Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mew on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
Shouldn’t Gorilla tactics also be banned because it forces you to struggle like Assault Vest does? Double Band Gorilla Heracross defeats the point of Metronome battles. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8metronomebattle-1017095911
Also I’d like to hear your opinions on Neutralizing Gas because I think it deserves to go.
Shouldn’t Gorilla tactics also be banned because it forces you to struggle like Assault Vest does? Double Band Gorilla Heracross defeats the point of Metronome battles. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8metronomebattle-1017095911
Also I’d like to hear your opinions on Neutralizing Gas because I think it deserves to go.
It probably works right ingame and will get fixed eventually, but on the other hand Metronome the item was banned while it was giving its powerful 2x boosts. Kind of a lame gameplan so I'm fine either way. Maybe if there were a ladder and the stakes were higher/gorillas tyrannize the meta, but as of now I think most players are just trying to have fun with metronomes and not trying hard.
I haven't used or fought that many gassers, so I don't feel very strongly against it. It's basically better Mold Breaker/Unaware/anything you would use to counter that also don't have counters. Though those can be useless against the wrong teams, whereas this is effective all the time and is probably more practical to run. It doesn't provide any benefit for yourself, and imo abilities shouldn't be all you need to win, I see shutting down strats as a strat. The basics are everything. I'll try it out for myself and judge it again later though. Like Gorilla Tactics I also don't feel like this will be too much of a concern in the current state of the meta.
It probably works right ingame and will get fixed eventually, but on the other hand Metronome the item was banned while it was giving its powerful 2x boosts. Kind of a lame gameplan so I'm fine either way. Maybe if there were a ladder and the stakes were higher/gorillas tyrannize the meta, but as of now I think most players are just trying to have fun with metronomes and not trying hard.
I haven't used or fought that many gassers, so I don't feel very strongly against it. It's basically better Mold Breaker/Unaware/anything you would use to counter that also don't have counters. Though those can be useless against the wrong teams, whereas this is effective all the time and is probably more practical to run. It doesn't provide any benefit for yourself, and imo abilities shouldn't be all you need to win, I see shutting down strats as a strat. The basics are everything. I'll try it out for myself and judge it again later though. Like Gorilla Tactics I also don't feel like this will be too much of a concern in the current state of the meta.
I don’t know if this was intended but you replied to a neutralizing gas post with a koffing emoji which is the ability user lol.
The point is that in the worst it provides an equal standing with your opponent, and the best it shuts down an opponent ability reliant strategy.
There is no strong matchup against this ability. For example, magic bounce potentially has a bad matchup against defiant/competitive because it can bounce back debuffs which the boosting abilities can capitalize on.
Heavy boosting strats like Weakness policy + Defiant/competitive would have a bad matchup against something like weakness policy+unaware because the unaware users ignore your boosts anyways.
And unaware would be significantly less effective against teams that opted for other useful abilities outside of boosting, such as magic bounce.
Neutralizing gas users, meanwhile, have no bad matchups and only good matchups. If people were trying to be optimal, everybody would run this.
The way I see it, at best it puts you at an equal footing and at reasonably worst it doesn't matter (the point where everyone is neutral). Neutralizing Gas does cancel everything out, but Neutralizing Gas doesn't do anything else to help you. You still have to play the game and win on your own terms, rather than being able to stack buffs and charge the enemy. Of these mentioned abilities, Magic Bounce and Defiant/Competitive are very common because they're good in general. With Unaware, not so much (though I probably wouldn't ever notice it).
Basically I would argue Neutralizing Gas is less consistent/more fair in the long run, as you are basing the outcome on the moves you roll, and losing is still just as likely. With bulky statboost, you have the possibility to get to +6 on turn 1 or something with an equal end result (OHKOs). The best/worst this ability can do is make you even, while the best others can do is give you an infinite advantage in theory. Even if the optimal move is to run Neutralizing Gas, in the end you aren't in any better position than someone without it. Who knows, maybe the meta'd balance itself out in practice?
Also Comatose isn't neutralized, though that's kind of a neutral fact. Provides 'synergy', but also a weakness I guess.
EDIT: There's a fair point that abilities are one of the four unique things about your team and this effectively removes a major part of the format. On the other side of things, people like using abilities and having power. Neutralizing Gas is an ability too, and it all depends on the people that choose to use it. Worst case scenario, we get ladder back, live the apocalypse, and ban it after the fact like the trial of Melmetal/steels. But I don't view it as a threat with the current player base.
EDIT 2: Actually, best case scenario is probably cutting off Imposter so you're up against 2 fat eggs. That's the best matchup for Neutralizing Gas, a strat that's completely devoted to its ability without regards to anything else. At least grass types can work with Weakness Policy.
EDIT 3: Take Magician thieving as what I'm basing this future off on. It was a fad for about a day but I don't think it was ever mainstream.
EDIT 4: In hindsight, I can elaborate better on the meta balancing out. Say Neutralizing Gas becomes the new trend, everyone's running it. But then you can run Comatose to have a useful effect and not care. We at least have 1 way to keep the smogon gas in check.
Here's a duo I been using since release and it's pretty much the only team i'll ever use until i feel like experimenting w other things bcus i fucking love these two. There's no true synergy between them but i chose them both for the same reasons; good bulk to make use of weakness policy and good mixed offenses to deal good damage both physical and special. Hatterene's super low speed also makes it good vs dumbass perish song wars. The main focus however is Mirror Armor. I'm not exaggerating when i say this is a contender for top 3 abilities imo. Bouncing back every stat drop (even those bounced by magic bounce) regardless if it's from a status move like sand attack or an attack like fire lash means you pretty much punish your opponent for pulling any stat-dropping move. Defiant/competitive teams can take advantage of it but for the most part it's a very good ability vs most teams imo
Logically it should have the same fate as Fur Coat, though that was quickbanned from the start. I can't speak for the decisions made but I agree it's pretty powerful even without thinking on an optimal user. Probably one of the simpler things to discuss/decide a ban on at this point.
I liked Gen 7 more too, more moves are just nice. It'd be more fun but I have to be more pessimistic / realistic here, reverting back to an old gen when the current gen 'works' may be too much of a demand for just metronomes.
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Lately I haven't been playing much Showdown and instead got Sword so I don't have much to weigh in on. Earlier I did try Neutralizing Gas after my posts, and it kind of changed my opinion. I don't value its advantage much, but there is one, and it's what Mold Breaker does but better. Instead of raising yourself, lowering the opponent (to an equal level) is the goal. Is it enough to sacrifice an ability slot for? I still agree with myself on that it won't win everything, but after using it for a bit I did find it unfun and I went back to Sirfetch'd crits. People like power.
Apparently some Choice item move lock related mechanics have changed. I want to test Metronome when I get the chance, based on dynamax I predict that it may call 2-turn moves but not get the Choice boost. Who knows?
Silvally Buffs (sometime):From the game mechanics thread, RKS System and a Memory will no longer be needed for Silvally to use its other typing formes. Notably he was one of the best defensive Ghosts overall, and now has access to an ability and item. Speaking of Silvally, I've made an interesting discovery just now and I'm sorry for it.
HAX (Silvally-Water) @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
Steel is back in Gen 8, and it never even left Gen 7. You don't get an ability or item, and the power is locked to Silvally, but it has stats + is a steel type. Can this handicap be enough to render these gods mortal, or will Steel Memory become the next to join Magearna and Pokestar Spirit?
But why not just have both? They have past gen options for other categories. I think the changes in gen 8 are dramatic enough to warrant at least that.
Ivy can we ban gorilla tactics? choice band gorilla tactics takes the randomness out of the game by letting you 2hko things w struggle w mega heracross, which defeats the purpose of metronome battles in the first place. Not to mention it's pretty much a free win unless you get lucky every single turn bcus if you dont theyll just kill you w struggle before they die from struggle recoil. I've faced like 5 of them and every single loss wasnt even close to being in my favor. I can get replays to show how dumb this shit is
Ivy can we ban gorilla tactics? choice band gorilla tactics takes the randomness out of the game by letting you 2hko things w struggle w mega heracross, which defeats the purpose of metronome battles in the first place. Not to mention it's pretty much a free win unless you get lucky every single turn bcus if you dont theyll just kill you w struggle before they die from struggle recoil. I've faced like 5 of them and every single loss wasnt even close to being in my favor. I can get replays to show how dumb this shit is
I think that gorilla tactics makes you struggle because you can't use the move called by metronome on turn 1 anymore. However I don't know how this is supposed to work ingame.
But maybe someone could do that ingame and tell us the result: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublescustomgame-1028862662
I think that gorilla tactics makes you struggle because you can't use the move called by metronome on turn 1 anymore. However I don't know how this is supposed to work ingame.
But maybe someone could do that ingame and tell us the result: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublescustomgame-1028862662
Late but I can confirm that this doesn't happen ingame/the moves are used successfully, no Struggles. Agree this should be banned while it's bugged.
Also, choice items still cause multi-turn moves to fail.
Late but I can confirm that this doesn't happen ingame/the moves are used successfully, no Struggles. Agree this should be banned while it's bugged.
Also, choice items still cause multi-turn moves to fail.
