Metronome Battles

#51
Queen Latifah (Pokestar Spirit) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Metronome

Post Malone (Pokestar MT2) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Metronome

So as far as laddering goes, managed to reach 2nd with the above team, which looks nearly identical to most successful teams I've seen on the ladder thus far. From what I've seen, a good balance to increase your odds of winning the most comes from a Ghost or Dark type like Pokestar Spirit, Sableye Mega, paired with a Steel type like Magearna or Kartana. Teams with two Dark/Ghost types are often successful as well, as there are so many potential Normal/Fighting rolls with Metronome.

Really enjoying the return of this format! Cheers for bringing it back.
 
#52
I don't see the big deal in wanting a ban on Imprison. This is a Metronome ladder. It isn't some highly competitive format. It's basically entirely RNG other than the teambuilding aspect. You're going to hax others/get haxed on all the time.
 
#53
OHKO moves worse than Imprison? Really? To win with OHKO moves, you have to roll them twice, then pass a 30% accuracy roll both times, and both have to target Pokemon that are not immune to them and are not sashed/Sturdy.

Imprison is a whole different ballgame. If you use it, and you have at least one Pokemon that isn't within chip damage range of getting KOed, you win. That's it. No further luck needed, and crucially, absolutely no possible counterplay. (Edit: I guess you might be able to recover the battle if the mon using Imprison KOs itself.) There are no abilities or items that I know of that protect you from Imprison, and no moves that clear or prevent its effect. Plus you're not really losing because of the move's effect, you're losing because the rules of the format dictate that the move has to be an instant win condition in like 99% of situations. I can see why people feel differently about it.

I personally don't support an Imprison ban, but that's mostly because it seems antithetical to the point of the metagame to mess with Metronome's effects more than is necessary to make the format playable. But then, I'm also not fond of Pokestar Studios props or literal custom create-a-mons being allowed and I feel like this format should at least be making an effort to emulate cartridge Metronome battles.
 

Kalalokki

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#54
OHKO moves worse than Imprison? Really? To win with OHKO moves, you have to roll them twice, then pass a 30% accuracy roll both times, and both have to target Pokemon that are not immune to them and are not sashed/Sturdy.

Imprison is a whole different ballgame. If you use it, and you have at least one Pokemon that isn't within chip damage range of getting KOed, you win. That's it. No further luck needed, and crucially, absolutely no possible counterplay. (Edit: I guess you might be able to recover the battle if the mon using Imprison KOs itself.) There are no abilities or items that I know of that protect you from Imprison, and no moves that clear or prevent its effect. Plus you're not really losing because of the move's effect, you're losing because the rules of the format dictate that the move has to be an instant win condition in like 99% of situations. I can see why people feel differently about it.

I personally don't support an Imprison ban, but that's mostly because it seems antithetical to the point of the metagame to mess with Metronome's effects more than is necessary to make the format playable. But then, I'm also not fond of Pokestar Studios props or literal custom create-a-mons being allowed and I feel like this format should at least be making an effort to emulate cartridge Metronome battles.
Mechanics is the only part I feel is relevant to replicate, after all we're using megas without megastone and with custom abilities already. Banning Imprison, OHKO-moves, or anything else like that is just dumb and is part of the RNG in this meta.
 
#62
Has Z-Metronome been observed to be overpowered? It seems like half the time it'll just do essentially nothing, because status moves called by Metronome don't get their Z-boosts, and adding extra power to a move once the rest of the time (when that move will still probably not score a KO) doesn't seem busted compared to what else can be done in the format. Losing your item for a Z-move seems a lot less potent when it won't work all of the time. Additionally, it offers some counterplay to Imprison etc, since moves that stop you using Metronome can't block the Z-version.

Obviously I'm just theorymonning and could be radically wrong.
 
#63
Has Z-Metronome been observed to be overpowered? It seems like half the time it'll just do essentially nothing, because status moves called by Metronome don't get their Z-boosts, and adding extra power to a move once the rest of the time (when that move will still probably not score a KO) doesn't seem busted compared to what else can be done in the format. Losing your item for a Z-move seems a lot less potent when it won't work all of the time. Additionally, it offers some counterplay to Imprison etc, since moves that stop you using Metronome can't block the Z-version.
Obviously I'm just theorymonning and could be radically wrong.
I do agree with this. I wasn't around for the original "shitmons council" ruling on it. If you're right about status moves not being able to utilize the z-effects (which makes sense), then that's even more cause for allowing them, as the majority of draws would just be entirely useless.
 
#65
I'd like to propose the banning of Magearna, speaking as someone who peaked and stayed #1 on the ladder. (Before being crushed by a 6-game loss streak to Torment and Self-Destruct. Fun.)

Aegislash (and all Steel/Ghosts but Smogonsword is the most relevant) is banned because of the typing having an amazing pool of resistances combined with a very bulky stat spread.

Fairy/Steel has the same number of resistances as Steel/Ghost and, more importantly, less weaknesses. The only weaknesses Fairy/Steel have are Fire and Ground which can be easily remedied with either Flash Fire or Levitate. Magearna has comparable bulk to Aegislash-Shield, only losing a little bit of effective HP, while also having far better offenses. Granted, it has less immunities than Steel/Ghost, losing the valuable Normal and Fighting immunities for the less valuable Dragon immunity, but if immunities mattered so much in the rules of this format then the Dark/Ghosts would be banned too, boasting immunities to three common Metronome types on top of the common type absorption abilities we see thrown in.

If Aegislash is banned, Magearna should be too. They're cut from the same cloth and Magearna honestly is better than Aegislash will ever be in this format. The bulky Steel meta is the eternal meta of Shitmons/Metro, especially without Berserk Gene to smash through them, but removing Magearna will greatly alleviate the crushing power of the strat.

I wouldn't be opposed to Celesteela or Mega Scizor being removed too for similar reasons.
 
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#66
I do agree with this. I wasn't around for the original "shitmons council" ruling on it. If you're right about status moves not being able to utilize the z-effects (which makes sense), then that's even more cause for allowing them, as the majority of draws would just be entirely useless.
I’ve done loads of Metronome battles on cartridge and I’m certain this is how it works.

If all of your moves at the start of the turn are unusable (by Taunt, Imprison, etc.), you do not get to click the Z button for an opportunity to use Z-Metronome: in-game, selecting the Fight option in that case immediately causes you to use Struggle with no further prompts.
Oh, that makes sense. Scratch that counterplay option then.

I'd like to propose the banning of Magearna, speaking as someone who peaked and stayed #1 on the ladder. (Before being crushed by a 6-game loss streak to Torment and Self-Destruct. Fun.)

Aegislash (and all Steel/Ghosts but Smogonsword is the most relevant) is banned because of the typing having an amazing pool of resistances combined with a very bulky stat spread.

Fairy/Steel has the same number of resistances as Steel/Ghost and, more importantly, less weaknesses. The only weaknesses Fairy/Steel have are Fire and Ground which can be easily remedied with either Flash Fire or Levitate. Magearna has comparable bulk to Aegislash-Shield, only losing a little bit of effective HP, while also having far better offenses. Granted, it has less immunities than Steel/Ghost, losing the valuable Normal and Fighting immunities for the less valuable Dragon immunity, but if immunities mattered so much in the rules of this format then the Dark/Ghosts would be banned too, boasting immunities to three common Metronome types on top of the common type absorption abilities we see thrown in.

If Aegislash is banned, Magearna should be too. They're cut from the same cloth and Magearna honestly is better than Aegislash will ever be in this format. The bulky Steel meta is the eternal meta of Shitmons/Metro, especially without Berserk Gene to smash through them, but removing Magearna will greatly alleviate the crushing power of the strat.

I wouldn't be opposed to Celesteela or Mega Scizor being removed too for similar reasons.
I’ve also been on top of or near the top of the ladder more or less since its inception, and I agree with this. Games with 3+ Magearna are not rare, and it’s scarier than Dark/Ghost because it has less counterplay options. I’ve been using Scrappy and Pixilate to get around Pokestar Spirit spam, and Scrappy in particular would deal with Steel/Ghost pretty well. Your counterplay options against Magearna are more limited because there aren’t any abilities that help deal with the resistances (it resists all of the -ate abilities except Galvanise) and it has much more offensive presence than Aegislash.

I’ve found Celesteela less egregious — it’s a defensive powerhouse but it needs ability support to get really annoying, so unlike Magearna it has to trade off offensive presence. Most other mons have a lot of trade-offs in general, but Magearna feels like an autoinclude.
 
#67
Your counterplay options against Magearna are more limited because there aren’t any abilities that help deal with the resistances
Technically there is the option of running Tinted Lens to turn your 0.5x hits to 1x which possibly isn't the worst idea in a Metronome format but that's just about it, and it leaves you high and dry against MSab/Majin spam.

The Mold Breaker family would probably be a better choice since it'd counteract the common Flash Fire Magearna while also saving you from other powerful abilities like Magic Bounce/Lightningrod/Storm Drain.
 
#68
You jerks banned my Abomasite mid ladder climb. :pirate:

I'd support a Magearna ban. And while it has more counterplay, imo Spirit is a little centralizing and should be "nerfed" down to MSable.
 

Jrsmash9

jrsmash that timer
#69
There’s no point in banning Pokémon, due to the nature of the format there will always be a certain Pokémon that is the best because of its typing and stats.
 
#71
Technically there is the option of running Tinted Lens to turn your 0.5x hits to 1x which possibly isn't the worst idea in a Metronome format but that's just about it, and it leaves you high and dry against MSab/Majin spam.
At that point, you might as well run Defiant or Competitive. One boost is enough to be far better than Tinted Lens (by doing functionally the same thing while also buffing attacks that aren’t resisted) and those abilities proc quite often in this format, so you're sacrificing a little bit of variance for quite a lot of extra potential power.

The Mold Breaker family would probably be a better choice since it'd counteract the common Flash Fire Magearna while also saving you from other powerful abilities like Magic Bounce/Lightningrod/Storm Drain.
I'm not convinced Flash Fire is that big a threat. Sure, it’s annoying when you happen to strike at one of Magearna’s weaknesses and it doesn’t work, but fire moves aren’t *that* common and I honestly think getting around Magic Bounce is a more important use of the ability. Unless you’re using two steel types and/or Defiant/Competitive spam, the sheer amount of debuffs and statuses (particularly poison whih is just brutal) that get reflected by Bounce can make a match unwinnable.

For overall utility, I’d say Magic Bounce and Competitive are the most threatening abilities on Magearna, with stuff like Flash Fire or Pixilate being threats under more specific scenarios.

Also, here's a match where my opponent rolled Imprison early on and I won anyway: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7metronomebattle-731713789

Sure, I rolled Torment and got a crit, but I don’t think either were massively decisive. Those conditions wouldn’t otherwise be that uncommon and there are Pokemon that are far more offensively potent than Marshadow. So I think the counterplay to Imprison is to just have mons that can hit really hard (signiicantly more than 25%) with Struggle. The Berserk Gene ban made this harder to do, but it’s still plenty possible and it’s not like “really powerful physical attacker” is an obscure niche in this meta.
 
#72
I've been playing this all day - haven't topped the ladder yet but it seems like it's a matter of time once you find a decent combination that works.

Thoughts so far:

1) Magearna should be banned - completely agree. While there are other Pokemon that are good, I do think Magearna is TOO good due to its typing and bulk combined with offensive firepower. Steel is the best typing in this metagame by a good amount (better than Ghost from my experiences as it can't be beaten with -ate abilities and resists poison)

2) I find the best playstyle here is "bulky boosting offense" - take a Pokemon with good bulk and typing (steel/ghost are great) and allow it to boost with an ability like Competitive or Defiant.

3) Another strategy that works is to combo Weakness Policy with Competitive on a Pokemon that has a large number of weaknesses but is bulky enough that it doesn't matter - that's how I got close to the top of the ladder (close to 70ish GXE at the moment) - I used Mega Slowbro (a mon I haven't seen anyone else use yet) whose Water/Psychic typing gives it five weaknesses but who is so unbelievably bulky that teams have a hard time breaking it - this allows Mega Slowbro to get a Weakness Policy boost in more than 50% of games which, coupled with its Competitive boost (nearly 100% of the time as no one is breaking it quickly) and good Special Attack stat allow it to put in work. I coupled it with Flash Fire Choice Band Mega Scizor which also fits the "bulky boosting offense" archetype well.

4) Speed does not matter in this tier at all - in fact, if Perish Song is rolled the slowest Pokemon wins. I recommend setting a negative speed nature with positive something else.
 
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#74
SING (Meloetta) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Metronome

SMASH (Meloetta-Pirouette) @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Metronome

Pretty sure there must be better choices than double Meloetta and Choice items have the annoying side-effect of causing problems with multi-turn moves, but double Defiant/Competitive is fun because it can lead to stuff like this:

SMASH used Metronome!
Waggling a finger let it use Leer!
[Opposing Tyranitar's Magic Bounce!]
The opposing Tyranitar bounced the Leer back!
SING's Defense fell!
[SING's Competitive!]
SING's Special Attack rose sharply!
SMASH's Defense fell!
[SMASH's Defiant!]
SMASH's Attack rose sharply!
[Opposing Dragonite's Magic Bounce!]
The opposing Dragonite bounced the Leer back!
SING's Defense fell!
[SING's Competitive!]
SING's Special Attack rose sharply!
SMASH's Defense fell!
[SMASH's Defiant!]
SMASH's Attack rose sharply!

(I still lost that very same turn.)
 
#75
I've topped the ladder with a 72.7 GXE (which is ...quite good) using a team that I haven't seen anyone else use. In fact, in 100 battles, I've only seen 1 usage of Mega Slowbro. It's quite good.

YOU ARE UNORIGINAL (Scizor-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Metronome

TWO MAGEARNAS = (Slowbro-Mega) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Metronome


Key things are:
Sassy nature on Mega Slowbro to increase SpDef ... Mega Slowbro doesn't need speed. In fact, speed is counterproductive - I just won a Perish Song battle because my Slowbro was the slowest thing on the field.
Choice Band on Mega Scizor worked out but I'm wondering if this can be improved at all. I can't use Defiant obviously because I need Flash Fire.

I think the winning formula for this metagame is: bulk (stats/typing) + stack boosts. It seems to be more effective than just using mons that are outright strong because, with the latter, you are relying on rolling moves that can hit Steel/Ghost types.


Fun metagame! I would seriously recommend a "Species Clause" because facing unoriginal two Magearna teams is just dumb.
 

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