Metagame Middle Cup [closed]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Middle Cup Tournament!
The middle cup tournament is starting! Here are the pairings for round one!

Take Azelfie vs Cofaiclus
Cheryl. vs snorlax142857
Maysoon vs Exploudit
Miyami~~ vs aBlobfish

BloodAce0107, GoldCat, Randomnick, and pqs all have byes.

Here is the bracket, so you can see your matches after round 1: http://challonge.com/1vlag6s2
And it is highly recommended you join this discord to find your opponents faster: https://discord.gg/PdzPvJT

A couple things:
- Save the Replays and post them!
- If something gets banned midway through a round, it is still legal for that round.
- Either post-in thread with the replays or tag me in the discord with the replays to confirm a win or loss.
- Once you've done one round, if you have an opponent available try to play them as fast as possible.

Good luck to everyone!
 
Last edited:

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Okay so I'm really sorry about being so late but Friday got me busy lol. But yeah, it is pretty clear to me that Z-Conversion Porygon2 is having a negative impact on the tier. It's combination of insane power, coverage, and bulk, as well as having the tools to get past pretty much any of it's supposed "checks" (Mainly being able to use Psychic typed Conversion with Psyshock to break past Chansey once boosted) makes it into the most effective and scariest setup sweeper in the tier by far. It is also ridiculously hard to revenge kill normally because of it's bulk once boosted, as Z-Conversion P2 commonly runs Recover to keep it healthy while it sweeps your team, and while some Scarfers like Scarf Gabite can theoretically beat Electric-type versions, it can't beat Ghost or Psychic-typed versions, making it a guessing game and giving the P2 user an unfair advantage. However, I will only be banning the move Conversion, instead of Porygon2. Why is that, you might say? Well, Porygon2 is the only user of the move Conversion in Middle Cup, and Conversion is the move that causes Porygon2 to be broken. Porygon2 also has other sets that can be considered healthy for the meta, including it's defensive sets, which are able to blanket check a good portion of the offensive metagame, while not being quite as passive as Chansey is. Considering how small Middle Cup currently is, and the insane amount of offensive mons in the tier, I felt that it would be more helpful to the growth of the meta if we kept Porygon2 in.

tl;dr: Conversion is now banned from Middle Cup and Porygon2 will stay. This ban will only apply to Round 2 and onwards of the current tournament.
 
anyways, time for noms


Swadloon: B-Low ---> C-High
As adorable as it is, it just isn't good. It's stuck in an awkward limbo where it's too bulky to function as a proper suicide lead, leaving it as set-up bait, but its defensive typing is too crappy to justify using it as a wall. To top it all off, Sticky Web just isn't an important nor necessary enough niche in the current metagame to where you need to use this mon for it, as Golbat is everywhere and most competently made teams in general have a scarfer or a hazard remover that negates Webs.


Porygon2: S ---> A-High/A-Low
Pretty self-explanatory, but now that the busted garbage that is Z-Conversion has been banished to the shadow realm, Porygon2 goes back to being the really good, but not super powerful or overbearing mon that it used to be.


Metang: B-High ---> A-Low
I know that Cheryl already rejected this nom, but I strongly think it should be re-considered. Now that Z-Conversion is gone, Metang doesn't have to worry about being used as set-up fodder by a broken mon, and can truly shine as one of the best AV users in the tier, being able to wall and chip down Electabuzz, Magneton, Kadabra, Roselia, Trumbeak and more. It hits deceptively hard considering its eh Attack stat, and it doesn't have to run just AV, for Stealth Rocks and even Agility Life Orb work in their own right and add to its great all-around strength.

as for discussion topics


Croconaw: A-Low ---> B-High: Disagreed
Yes, it competes with Marill, I'll concede to that. But I'm not sure it's bad enough to be B+, for it still hits hard as shit after a Dragon Dance. I don't see where the part where it's apparently difficult to set up comes from, for pure Water is really great defensively, and it has pretty good bulk for a sweeper. Maybe it's on the lower end of A-Low, but it's not B material, at least not yet.


Dragonair: B-High ---> B-Low: Agreed
Others have said, but to recap, Dragonair's niche over Fraxure was that it was a Dragon Dancer that could beat Doublade. Now that Z-Stomping Tantrum Fraxure is a thing, that niche is irrelevant, and it is pretty outclassed. While I could see a special attacking set and access to Extreme Speed giving it some merit, Dragonair has lost what made it shine, and I won't be surprised if it drops lower from here (If I'm being 100% honest, it SHOULD drop lower from here.)

I have no opinion on the other stuff, except for Zweilous, which I mentioned earlier.
 

lyd

stab in the dark
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Miyami~~ please sub me out of the tour. I didn't mean to join in the first place, cuz I didn't read the 'like this post to join' thing. I just liked the post cuz I thought "oh nice they're doing a tour, too bad I won't be able to join". So, yeah really sorry for accidentally joining :[
 
Due to the lack of a 'simple questions, simple answers' thread, I'm just going to say it here.
I would love to see a Middle Cup competition with the LC Ubers mons (mons banned from LC). Is such a thing even viable? How would it play out? Thanks in advance.
 
Due to the lack of a 'simple questions, simple answers' thread, I'm just going to say it here.
I would love to see a Middle Cup competition with the LC Ubers mons (mons banned from LC). Is such a thing even viable? How would it play out? Thanks in advance.
Cheryl and other tier leaders have already talked about doing this sometime after the current tournament ends. It would be viable. Some LC Ubers would be useless such as Porygon since Porygon 2 is already in the tier but others like Vulpix with drought would be interesting. They were also considering a tournament where both LC Ubers and normal LC pokemon would be allowed. Not sure which will end up happening.
 
Due to the lack of a 'simple questions, simple answers' thread, I'm just going to say it here.
I would love to see a Middle Cup competition with the LC Ubers mons (mons banned from LC). Is such a thing even viable? How would it play out? Thanks in advance.
I do not know on what occasion these matches took place (see this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/perfectpokemonshowdown-nfe-2647), but it apparently had at one time a more general format than the Middle Cup: the NFE (in the narrow sense, that is to say a format where we can use all mons that have not completely evolved). We would have monsters like Scyther, Sneasel, Gligar, Tangela, Type: Null, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Yanma, Vulpix or Meditite. But also excellent LC like Ferroseed, Pawniard, Vullaby, Onix, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Onix, Trapinch, Munchlax, Hippopotas or Bronzor. Many of the examples cited would be top tiers
Sprite_6_x_123_m.png
Sprite_6_x_215_m.png
Sprite_6_x_207_m.png
Sprite_7_s_772.png
Sprite_6_x_597.png
Sprite_6_x_624.png
Sprite_6_x_449_m.png
 
Last edited:
haha "not a meta" jab insert here
I probably should have posted this earlier but w/e. Middle Cup was a pretty fun metagame (surprisingly, because I usually prefer metagames that alter game mechanics), so I'll just drop a team here in hopes that it'll get omotm or lc again.

i call this the "wow it's a standard t- wtf" team



Gabite @ Rocky Helmet / Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

Standard lead. Sets rocks and does some good damage before dying. Iron Head hits Togetic, though you could add Toxic to pressure Porygon2 better.


Doublade (M) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 180 HP / 44 Atk / 4 Def / 76 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance

look, it's the godmon. Sets Swords Dance, and proceeds to Iron Head and Sacred Sword to victory. Faster sweepers get rekt by Shadow Sneak. You try to send out your Kadabra but
252 SpA Kadabra Shadow Ball vs. 180 HP / 76 SpD Doublade: 132-156 (84 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

then you try to send out your Porygon-2 but Doublade outspeeds and uses an All-Out Pummeling ez

In all seriousness, though, Doublade should probably get S rank because it can sweep a lot of teams because of a general lack of good physical tanks (besides doublade himself)


Electabuzz @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch


Frogadier @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
EVs: 248 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric] / Grass Knot / Surf
- U-turn


Monferno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze / Iron Fist
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Rock Slide / Mach Punch / Poison Jab

idk what to put here cause they're just standard revenge killers


Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Toxic

Cool tank, checks most doublades and special attackers. Trace gets really fun when you switch into Frogadier and Gabite. You could try chople here to better handle gurdurr and doublade but it's your preference. 12 Speed creeps other porygon2s and the doublade set above. I guess you could add Shadow Ball too to better beat doublade but Ice Beam is p important to beat krokorok, gabite, and other dragons.

Usage Tips:
this team centers a lot around doublade so make sure you keep him alive. try to kill the other doublade though because if it gets through your own doublade you basically click x. since this team doesn't have a defogger, try to pressure stealth rock users. you could also replace a mon like frogadier with something like choice scarf or choice band trumbeak.

Matchups:
stall: wait for chansey to switch in, switch your doublade in, win
balance: wait for a safe switchin like when your gabite dies or when gurdurr switches in, switch in doublade, win
offense: see balance matchup but watch out for magmar and opposing doublades because they can live boosted shadow sneaks

I realize now that I've put a lot of faith into doublade, but it's really that good.

Gabite @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

Doublade @ Fightinium Z
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 180 HP / 44 Atk / 4 Def / 76 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance

Electabuzz @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch

Frogadier @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
EVs: 248 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- U-turn

Monferno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Rock Slide

Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Toxic

1526060676245.png

1526060802594.png

sorry for the shitposting style but this was fairly rushed, also insert ending here
 
Last edited:
Four months passed after the Middle Cup was OM of the Month and I had completely forgotten to look at the february usages (which are nevertheless a gold mine of information). Here for those who would not have seen the MC mons by use (above 3.41% at the 1630 level):
1528829071866.png
1528829091529.png
1528829107281.png
1528829136168.png
1528829160569.png
1528829236846.png
1528829254415.png

1528829273101.png
1528829291669.png
1528829318055.png
1528829331091.png
1528829349035.png
1528829368632.png
1528829390848.png

1528829403375.png
1528829420120.png
1528829439395.png
1528829456205.png
1528829475279.png
1528829488035.png
1528829503898.png

1528829525464.png
1528829543072.png
1528829555757.png
1528829623994.png
1528829637753.png
1528829680840.png
1528829694776.png
1528829708263.png

1528829721069.png
1528829736415.png
1528829751176.png
1528829768602.png
1528829787736.png
1528829814694.png
1528829830384.png
1528829844896.png
They are in total 37, a big third of playable mons. I am not a great metagame analyst but we can obviously notice the hypercentralization of this tier (as much as the OU or the LC and slightly less than the Uber). We note in particular:
• Porygon2 number one with 50% of uses (knowing that it was still playable with Conversion);
• Magneton who isn't in the top 5 (yet it's one of the most terrifying wallbreakers of this tier);
• Wartortle which is much more used than suggests its ranking in the VRs (C-Low);
• Gloom who misses out the floor of 3.41 (its potential was underestimated)

1528851358980.png
1528851369924.png
1528851387983.png
At the same time, there was early march the distribution of hidden abilities for gen 7 starters. The question was certainly discussed in private and it probably would not affect the meta but does it improve a minimum the concerned mons: Dartrix, Torracat and Brionne? Maybe the second at least goes over the D-rank
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
So things have been pretty dry out in Middle Cup lately. While the releases of the Gen 7 starter's HAs have spiced one mon up a bit (Torracat being decent now!), the meta is still basically the same, which isn't a bad thing of course. However, members of the MC Discord and the council have discussed some ways to potentially retest Eviolite
Bag_Eviolite_Sprite.png
, which has been a hot topic for a while now. Currently, the meta is very offensive with some mons having little to no ways of being reliably checked defensively, which can cause issues of unbalance. This is partially due to most defensive mons just not being bulky enough to tank these strong hits being dealt because of the lack of Eviolite. Unbanning Eviolite could lead to the rise of more defensive playstyles and being able to teambuild without as much constraint as right now. While there would be some mons that may end up as casualties to an Eviolite retest (Chansey specifically), it could end up with a more healthy Middle Cup meta.

The MC council has decided to hold a
Bag_Eviolite_Sprite.png
Middle Cup tournament with Eviolite allowed
Bag_Eviolite_Sprite.png
in order to test the effect of Eviolite being allowed in the meta to see if it seems more healthy than the current meta. Also, for this tournament, Chansey will be banned as it's far too likely that it's Eviolite-boosted defenses will allow it to wall too much of the meta at once. We may also keep a close eye on some potential problem mons with Evio such as Doublade and Porygon2 throughout the tour. The tournament will begin on July 8, and signups are beginning right now. To sign up, just like this post so the thread doesn't get cluttered. I will also be updating the VR with some changes in the next week or so, so stay tuned for that. If you wish to discuss the prospect of Eviolite being allowed again, you can do so in the thread, just be civil. ^-^
 
Last edited:

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
The Middle Cup Eviolite Tournament is starting today! Here are the pairings for Round 1:​

Mazz vs. aBlobfish
BloodAce0107 vs. Vince With Cheese
Cheryl. (Me) vs. fanyfan
leonard (from big bang theory) vs. GoldCat
Miyami~~ gets a bye for this round

A couple rules:
- Save your replays and post them in the thread.
-
If something gets banned from the tournament mid-round, it is still legal until the next round starts.
- Post in the thread or tag me on Discord to confirm a win or loss.

Good luck to everyone! Try to get your matches done as quickly as possible :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top