Mix-and-Mega — Now with Primals!

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MaestroDeSWAG said:
What else... Red orb is basically useless on anyone who isn't groudon- I mean, it might improve them, but groudon is just better overall than basically any other user. I feel like the same is true for blue orb, maybe some hurricane-spammer would like it though. Uh, yeah, das about it. Let's get some discussion going again!
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These two statements are just false, Blue Orb is a great item for physical steel types like Scizor who can't take a fire type attack at all as well as, what you said, hurricane spammers also find it pretty nice. Pokemon like Hydreigon also like to use Red Orb to preform the role of a special wallbreaker and it also helps Grass types like Roserade a lot
 
The Pizza Man said:
These two statements are just false, Blue Orb is a great item for physical steel types like Scizor who can't take a fire type attack at all as well as, what you said, hurricane spammers also find it pretty nice. Pokemon like Hydreigon also like to use Red Orb to preform the role of a special wallbreaker and it also helps Grass types like Roserade a lot
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Ok, yeah, I don't know how I forgot about steels- I actually considered using ferro for its near lack of weaknesses and cause, well, ferro. Red orb tho I still don't see as being as useful. Not because it would be bad on other mons, but because, for the most part, groudon is just better. It only has one weakness with harsh sun up, not to mention it has an obscene BST to play with
 
Blue Orb Ferrothorn? Hmmm...

Ferrothorn @ Blue Orb
Ability: Iron Barbs->Primordial Sea
Stats: 74/144/131/84/136/20
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
IVs: 0 Spd can be run for Trick Room
Brave Nature
-Power Whip
-Leech Seed
-Thunder Wave/Iron Head/Poison Jab/Curse
-Spikes/Stealth Rock/Toxic/Swords Dance

With its Fire weakness removed, this Ferrothorn has only Fighting attacks to fear, which its high defenses can easily withstand. Power Whip is the obligatory Grass STAB, and off 144 attack, it hurts, not to mention the fact that it hits Fighting types neutrally. Leech Seed provides recovery, of course, which is at a premium due to the absence of healing items. For the remaining two slots, as usual, there are options. You can opt to spread status with Thunder Wave and/or Toxic, set hazards that may not necessarily be Defogged or spun away, or run an offensive set using Swords Dance and Iron Head for boosting and secondary STAB, respectively--just be sure to set up Trick Room before you bring it in. (It also gets Curse, which under Trick Room will do you wonders, making you stronger, bulkier, and "faster".)

Of particular note is that this Ferrothorn can actually beat Slowbronite Blissey at its job, not only defeating it one-on-one--
252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 193-228 (29.6 - 34.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 58-69 (16.4 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
--but also having comparable bulk on both sides if Blissey is fully invested in Defense. The two can easily be used alongside each other, as Blissey is a special attacker and has a much better movepool to work with (and can still Wish pass!), while Ferrothorn can wallbreak with Power Whip. As they share a weakness, it is obviously advisable to have a means of dealing with Fighting types or anything carrying Focus Blast.
 
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jordanthejq12 said:
Blue Orb Ferrothorn? Hmmm...

Ferrothorn @ Blue Orb
Ability: Iron Barbs->Primordial Sea
Stats: 74/144/131/84/136/20
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
IVs: 0 Spd can be run for Trick Room
Brave Nature
-Power Whip
-Leech Seed
-Thunder Wave/Iron Head/Poison Jab/Curse
-Spikes/Stealth Rock/Toxic/Swords Dance

With its Fire weakness removed, this Ferrothorn has only Fighting attacks to fear, which its high defenses can easily withstand. Power Whip is the obligatory Grass STAB, and off 144 attack, it hurts, not to mention the fact that it hits Fighting types neutrally. Leech Seed provides recovery, of course, which is at a premium due to the absence of healing items. For the remaining two slots, as usual, there are options. You can opt to spread status with Thunder Wave and/or Toxic, set hazards that may not necessarily be Defogged or spun away, or run an offensive set using Swords Dance and Iron Head for boosting and secondary STAB, respectively--just be sure to set up Trick Room before you bring it in. (It also gets Curse, which under Trick Room will do you wonders, making you stronger, bulkier, and "faster".)

Of particular note is that this Ferrothorn can actually beat Slowbronite Blissey at its job, not only defeating it one-on-one--
252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 193-228 (29.6 - 34.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 58-69 (16.4 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
--but also having comparable bulk on both sides if Blissey is fully invested in Defense. The two can easily be used alongside each other, as Blissey is a special attacker and has a much better movepool to work with (and can still Wish pass!), while Ferrothorn can wallbreak with Power Whip. As they share a weakness, it is obviously advisable to have a means of dealing with Fighting types or anything carrying Focus Blast.
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The only problem with curse under trick room is that it only lasts 3 turns, iirc. But yeah, sounds pretty cool. Especially coz it's just so crazy bulky. I think gyro ball may be better than power whip with his almost complete lack of speed, but then again, with sablenite stuff running around, it might not be as effective.
 
I think a cool option could be Venusaurite celebi. It's substantially bulkier overall, has more power, and is faster than Venusaur, with the only downside being it's inferior defensive typing. However, I think it should more than compensate. Also, venusaurite could also be pretty good for mamoswine. It would retain the same ability, but boost its stats, though sadly it'd boost its defense the most, which doesn't really help it.

Also Mamo would LOVE lucarionite. Let's not forget how adaptability just got it banned from AAA. The added speed is nice to, since It isn't exactly the epitome of bulk, or speed, for that matter. I just ran the calcs, and it has a small chance to ohko 252 HP / 252 Def+ lugia with icicle spear. That's though Multiscale. Granted, that's with basically the highest roll and 5 hits, but this is lugia we're talking about here. It is also blest with a nice 102 Spe, which is really nice considering all the base 90s in Ubers. Not to mention, non-scarf palkia is a liability against its freeze dry. Well, that's not true; it ohko's mamo twice over w/ hydro pump, but mamo also outspeeds and ohko's it. So as long as you can get mamo in safely, palkia dies. This thing is an animal. No pun intended. 95 base SpA means it doesn't need to run those 16 little EVs, it's way higher anyways w/ 0, and adaptability gives it the boost that life orb would.
Rotom-W could be really interesting with a number of sets. It's typing is really good, leaving only 2 weaknesses (ignoring levitate), though ground is really crippling. I could see mowtom being decent, too. Unfortunately, no mega stones, bar the lati@sites (which are probably kinda mediocre given their wasted boosts to attack, except maybe Latias, as it only wastes 20 as opposed to 40), grant levitate. Also it loses any and all recovery outside restalk and pain split.

breloom could be way fun with scizorite, or maybe even a more defensive set w/ aggronite. This would relieve it of that painful birdspam weakness somewhat, as well as a boost to bulk overall. Sadly, it loses both its niches in technician STAB Mach punch and poison heal w/ STAB drain punch. it might be worth while though- cause punchshroom has always found a way to shine. Ooh, actually, Gyaradosite would have some potential on it to beat sablenite stuff w/ spore/ toxic/ whatever you want/ leech seed/ yada yada. Zardite x could be good too, so long as it gets dual chop. Too bad this isn't technician tower, too. Oh wait, it doesn't get any coverage that isn't rock-type/ facade... Gyaradosite still could be decent tho.

I don't think Audinite has gotten enough cred. Given, it has a trash ability, but +fairy typing is awesome, especially for dragons like Latias. Its stat boosts are really what make it work, possibly making some deadly bulky setup sweepers. It seems outclassed by altarianite, but it doesn't dump 40 into attack, instead granting more special bulk, as well as sacrificing SpA for Def.
 
Venusaurite Celebi looks really good. While it loses a pretty good ability in Natural Cure, its replacement ability takes away its Fire and Ice weaknesses. 118 and 122 for attacking stats seems a bit low, so you might just end up running a BP set, but the ability to hit competently from both sides makes it a very flexible mon.

Lucarionite Mamoswine...wow. Ice + Ground already gives you functionally perfect coverage, and adding Adaptability to it amounts to an Expert Belt on top of the stats boosts. 165 Attack makes it a serious threat. Score that one for the threatlist!

Yeah, speaking of that, do we have a threatlist? (There is the OP, but that hasn't been updated in a bit, FlameUser not having been around.)
 
jordanthejq12 said:
Venusaurite Celebi looks really good. While it loses a pretty good ability in Natural Cure, its replacement ability takes away its Fire and Ice weaknesses. 118 and 122 for attacking stats seems a bit low, so you might just end up running a BP set, but the ability to hit competently from both sides makes it a very flexible mon.

Lucarionite Mamoswine...wow. Ice + Ground already gives you functionally perfect coverage, and adding Adaptability to it amounts to an Expert Belt on top of the stats boosts. 165 Attack makes it a serious threat. Score that one for the threatlist!

Yeah, speaking of that, do we have a threatlist? (There is the OP, but that hasn't been updated in a bit, FlameUser not having been around.)
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Yeah, I was thinking more of a support celebi, but it also has nasty plot/ Swords dance, which makes up for it. Especially when it has 140 def. It is officially bulkier than Skarm. It lacks passive recovery from lefties, but it makes up for it w/ it's nice ability paired with its typing, as well as its versatility.

And yeah, Mamo is God-like.

Speaking of Skarm, btw, it could be REALLY good w/ aggronite. 65/190/90 defenses w/ filter+roost mean you aren't dying soon. It will even be able to tank some decent special hits. Not to mention, it's far less passive; 110 Atk is actually decent- let's not forget that Altaria only has 110 Atk.

Aggronite would be really good for a lot of mons. Honestly, I think it may be as good as Sablenite for almost any wall. Especially since it doesn't sacrifice speed. One exception would be zapdos, since it's typing is what makes it so good.

Oh, and btw, adaptabity is more like a TC boost on top of stab than an expert belt... >:}

I think the other mons I posted in the hide were pretty cool, also. You should def check those out if you haven't already. Not as good as celebi and mamo, but still solid none the less.
 
Expert Belt is only a 20% boost. Life Orb is only a 30% boost. Adaptability is a 33% boost.

There's no threatlist yet, alas.

Hey Pikachuun is it just impossible for an item to apply base stat modifiers directly to the holder and change the holder's Ability? Because if if it is possible, it would be simpler than making some weird alternate Mega Evolution behavior. (Would invalidate a lot of the current theorymonning about Intimidate and so on, but whatever)
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
Yeah, I was thinking more of a support celebi, but it also has nasty plot/ Swords dance, which makes up for it. Especially when it has 140 def. It is officially bulkier than Skarm. It lacks passive recovery from lefties, but it makes up for it w/ it's nice ability paired with its typing, as well as its versatility.

And yeah, Mamo is God-like.

Speaking of Skarm, btw, it could be REALLY good w/ aggronite. 65/190/90 defenses w/ filter+roost mean you aren't dying soon. It will even be able to tank some decent special hits. Not to mention, it's far less passive; 110 Atk is actually decent- let's not forget that Altaria only has 110 Atk.

Aggronite would be really good for a lot of mons. Honestly, I think it may be as good as Sablenite for almost any wall. Especially since it doesn't sacrifice speed. One exception would be zapdos, since it's typing is what makes it so good.

Oh, and btw, adaptabity is more like a TC boost on top of stab than an expert belt... >:}

I think the other mons I posted in the hide were pretty cool, also. You should def check those out if you haven't already. Not as good as celebi and mamo, but still solid none the less.
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lets not forget that altaria has an offensive ability and is built for dragon dancing/mixed attacking.
 
Throbulator36 said:
lets not forget that altaria has an offensive ability and is built for dragon dancing/mixed attacking.
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Yeah, I know, I was just illustrating a point. The point is, even without LO or band or something, 110 Atk isn't necessarily that bad. Especially for a wall. Most Skarm run BB these days so they don't just become dead weight the moment they are taunted. +30 helps it somewhat here.
 
Throbulator36 said:
I accidentally mixed it up with altarianite since we were talking about alter. also aggronite skarm doesn't get stab on BB
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That's true, but not really all that significant. It's no less powerful than iron head, albeit w/ recoil. It's also far less resisted than iron head. Either would work, or you could run some niche move like counter or something, but you'd be tanking so much that it wouldn't do very much at all.

Anyways, Aggronite Dnite could be a great tank/ bulky sweeper. 91/145/120 defenses, filter, Multiscale on turn 1, and pure dragon rather than dragon and flying (lol, suck on that, ice types.), which doesn't matter since it's only strong flying stab was hurricane. It still has roost, which is nice considering it isn't a flying type anyways, and if you can out speed a ghost type (*cough, mega gengar) and roost, their shadow ball won't affect you since you're normal type now. So you just get a free 50% damage healed at 0 cost. They probs won't shadow ball, but hypothetically, it's cool.

Just imagine metagrossite genesect. Now go sit and cry in a corner. That nightmare will be forever seared into your mind.
 
Ghoul King said:
Hey Pikachuun is it just impossible for an item to apply base stat modifiers directly to the holder and change the holder's Ability? Because if if it is possible, it would be simpler than making some weird alternate Mega Evolution behavior. (Would invalidate a lot of the current theorymonning about Intimidate and so on, but whatever)
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I'm not sure. I'd need to test a few things out, that's for sure.
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
That's true, but not really all that significant. It's no less powerful than iron head, albeit w/ recoil. It's also far less resisted than iron head. Either would work, or you could run some niche move like counter or something, but you'd be tanking so much that it wouldn't do very much at all.

Anyways, Aggronite Dnite could be a great tank/ bulky sweeper. 91/145/120 defenses, filter, Multiscale on turn 1, and pure dragon rather than dragon and flying (lol, suck on that, ice types.), which doesn't matter since it's only strong flying stab was hurricane. It still has roost, which is nice considering it isn't a flying type anyways, and if you can out speed a ghost type (*cough, mega gengar) and roost, their shadow ball won't affect you since you're normal type now. So you just get a free 50% damage healed at 0 cost. They probs won't shadow ball, but hypothetically, it's cool.

Just imagine metagrossite genesect. Now go sit and cry in a corner. That nightmare will be forever seared into your mind.
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Roost doesn't change your type at all if you are a Flying type. It's still pretty cool, massive defense and Filter means it's not as prone to Pixilate Extreme speed and 164 atk is pretty huge too.
 
Talpr0ne said:
Roost doesn't change your type at all if you are a Flying type. It's still pretty cool, massive defense and Filter means it's not as prone to Pixilate Extreme speed and 164 atk is pretty huge too.
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I think you mean "Roost doesn't change your type if you aren't a Flying type".

MaestroDeSWAG said:
That's true, but not really all that significant. It's no less powerful than iron head, albeit w/ recoil. It's also far less resisted than iron head. Either would work, or you could run some niche move like counter or something, but you'd be tanking so much that it wouldn't do very much at all.

Anyways, Aggronite Dnite could be a great tank/ bulky sweeper. 91/145/120 defenses, filter, Multiscale on turn 1, and pure dragon rather than dragon and flying (lol, suck on that, ice types.), which doesn't matter since it's only strong flying stab was hurricane. It still has roost, which is nice considering it isn't a flying type anyways, and if you can out speed a ghost type (*cough, mega gengar) and roost, their shadow ball won't affect you since you're normal type now. So you just get a free 50% damage healed at 0 cost. They probs won't shadow ball, but hypothetically, it's cool.
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Aggronite Dragonite seems neat just for the potential to switch in on stuff like Rock types, with Multiscale taking the initial hit and Filter protecting it from anti-Dragon coverage. One of the tricky things in this meta (Assuming "proper" Mega Evolution behavior) is that switching in is more difficult due to the fact that the enemy will be up-statted by their Mega Stone and you won't until after the switch-in. (Barring Red/Blue Orb) Multiscale makes that initial switch-in a lot easier, barring powerful Ice attacks or Gyaradosite-backed attacks.
 
That's all on top of 164 Attack. Even a Fire Punch (generally the weakest attack you're likely to see on it) is gonna hurt. Granted, base 80 is a pretty horrible speed tier to be in now, but since you've got bulk, who needs speed? Just run Adamant.
 
Ghoul King said:
Aggronite Dragonite seems neat just for the potential to switch in on stuff like Rock types, with Multiscale taking the initial hit and Filter protecting it from anti-Dragon coverage. One of the tricky things in this meta (Assuming "proper" Mega Evolution behavior) is that switching in is more difficult due to the fact that the enemy will be up-statted by their Mega Stone and you won't until after the switch-in. (Barring Red/Blue Orb) Multiscale makes that initial switch-in a lot easier, barring powerful Ice attacks or Gyaradosite-backed attacks.
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I feel like Gyaradosite will be used more for breaking stall w/ all the Sablenite users, but your right, regardless.

jordanthejq12 said:
That's all on top of 164 Attack. Even a Fire Punch (generally the weakest attack you're likely to see on it) is gonna hurt. Granted, base 80 is a pretty horrible speed tier to be in now, but since you've got bulk, who needs speed? Just run Adamant.
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Also, it can dragon dance really easily, too, so its speed isn't that bad, really.
 
Aggronite Venusaur?
Filter is more or less the same as thick fat, except it affects more types, slightly less.
And other than that, It's a pretty big improvement. You can leech seed stall more viably, and could even run a SD set! (Yes, it gets that). But best of all, you are not fearing physical hits anytime soon.
 
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