M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #8: Naganadel

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#27
View attachment 112109
that took forever also chloe dont ban me pls
I'm pretty mixed about Naganadel. It's a nightmare against stall but gets OHKO'd by basically any ESpeed. Most likely, I'm voting ban though, cause i like stall ;~;
i haven't got reqs yet, but i know that red orb naganadel has 4x resist to pixilate and enough defense to bulk either of the others. Also, no espeed user can switch in to diancite naganadel, provided that the naga user uses some careful prediction.
 
#30
Crimson.png Reqs

I will be voting no ban because I think this meta needs more offensively oriented teams and stall matches are the most common around here and it really makes the game boring.
 
#35
mnm reqs.jpg

got reqs
this is on my main account (should've used an alt). the whole list is too long to attach but you can easily check that snorlax142857 has 1436 elo and 82.5 gxe
was up 21-1 but high ladder is hard to climb

@below: true, naga does break offense that lack a blue orb steel but either it gets extreme speeded if diancite or outsped if redorb. diancite naga does have issues with setting up on stall but red orb can 2hko anything if it gets to +2
i will reconsider my decision though
 
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#36
View attachment 112583 Reqs

I will be voting no ban because I think this meta needs more offensively oriented teams and stall matches are the most common around here and it really makes the game boring.
View attachment 112958
got reqs
this is on my main account (should've used an alt). the whole list is too long to attach but you can easily check that snorlax142857 has 1436 elo and 82.5 gxe
was up 21-1 but high ladder is hard to climb
i'll be voting no ban because stall is annoying to deal with
you guys realize that naga’s worst matchup is stall right? Naga is a LOT better at breaking offense in dia naga’s case and balance/bulky balance/fat teams without ditto with red orb. Stalls usually have a dedicated naga answer while carrying ditto in the back. I’m not saying naga can’t bop unprepared stall teams or that stall isn’t annoying, but this is a poor argument because are a) a lot better stallbreakers in the tier and b) if naga is banned stall will arguably benefit the least out of all playstyles
 
#37
you guys realize that naga’s worst matchup is stall right? Naga is a LOT better at breaking offense in dia naga’s case and balance/bulky balance/fat teams without ditto with red orb. Stalls usually have a dedicated naga answer while carrying ditto in the back. I’m not saying naga can’t bop unprepared stall teams or that stall isn’t annoying, but this is a poor argument because are a) a lot better stallbreakers in the tier and b) if naga is banned stall will arguably benefit the least out of all playstyles
I'm also going to chime in here not to talk about Naga's MU against stall itself but what I believe may be the basis for where these opinions are being formed. From my own time spent on the suspect ladder and observing other players laddering for reqs, I saw extensive use of what i'll refer to as "Gimme that Click Stall" (referring to the showdown username who created and peaked the ladder with said team.) Gimme that Click (known as FOZ369 on smogon) posted it on the metagame forum after his peak and considering the sample teams are outdated, users in need of a team to ladder with seemed to flock to this build and as a result, it exploded in popularity on the suspect ladder.

Although it wasn't as common, Quantum Tesseract also laddered with a very solid stall build he created and passed it to a few users as well. These two teams combined with some other independent stall builds that I didn't see as often but were still definitely present are all testaments to how popular stall was on this ladder. So what i'm trying to say is consider the situation aspect alongside the matchup situation. Would this stall build be as present on the ladder if sample teams were easier to come by? Are you guys maybe coming to the conclusion that stall thrives in a Naga-less meta because the most experience you've had in mnm is on this stall-infested ladder? Have you tried Naga vs Gimme that Click stall or Quantum Tesseract's stall and do you really feel like it would make a dramatic impact vs these builds considering they were made during a era where Naga was present? I have used Naga numerous times against these specific builds and other stall and although it does a great job exerting pressure, it is SO far from an autowin and is forced to attempt to surgically pick apart ditto stalls without getting weakened itself.

To reinforce this point i'm going pull out the example of Gimme that Click's stall running sp def rest pdon with cleric support to prevent Naga from just running through his team. It also doesn't help that after very little chip, whether that be rocks or some other means, Naga cannot setup without the impending threat of ditto impostering its boosts and then flamethrowering Naga into oblivion. I'm not arguing that Red Orb Naga doesn't have a good MU against stall. That would be foolish; Naga is a fantastic mon that gives loads of builds and playstyles trouble and that's why it's here getting suspected. I'm simply providing examples of why it may not be quite as good of a MU as you guys seem to think and that good stall teams built during the Naga era know that it's a massive threat and have set stops in place to prevent an autoloss. I'm not going to speak on dia naga as much because that's an even easier stop for stall. Gimme that Click has ice beam blissey (which could also be exchanged for psychic if you wish to hit red orb naga as well,) ditto always revenges and if you're desperate you can even force weird situations with megaing vs not megaing with Audinite Kyurem (+2 sludge bomb is a little over a 50% roll to kill unmega'd Kyurem but you can still flirt with the possibility of them confidently clicking draco, getting burned by fairy typing and dying to earth power.

tl;dr Stall builds were spammed on this ladder possibly because they were some of the only readily available teams to take and use due to the outdated samples or maybe because people just wanted to use stall. Don't form opinions about Naga suppressing stall based off of only this and play/watch a few matches of stall vs naga to see if it makes as big of an impact as you think it does.
 
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#38
you guys realize that naga’s worst matchup is stall right? Naga is a LOT better at breaking offense in dia naga’s case and balance/bulky balance/fat teams without ditto with red orb. Stalls usually have a dedicated naga answer while carrying ditto in the back. I’m not saying naga can’t bop unprepared stall teams or that stall isn’t annoying, but this is a poor argument because are a) a lot better stallbreakers in the tier and b) if naga is banned stall will arguably benefit the least out of all playstyles
I don’t see why naga’s worst matchup is stall. Naga sets up a nasty plot and sweeps, and if you bring in ditto, naga gets improofed by a blue orb steel. Unless you want to commit two or three of your mons to walling naga, you should just run an extreme speeder or fake out mon to pressure naga
 
#39
I don’t see why naga’s worst matchup is stall. Naga sets up a nasty plot and sweeps, and if you bring in ditto, naga gets improofed by a blue orb steel. Unless you want to commit two or three of your mons to walling naga, you should just run an extreme speeder or fake out mon to pressure naga
If you didn't read my third paragraph I think you probably should. I specifically named measures that a successful stall build used in a meta before the naga suspect began. Since that didn't seem to sink in, i'll name Quantum Tesseract's means of preventing red orb naga from sweeping as well. He has a venusaurite gliscor with a nice chunk of special defense. This ensures that gliscor tanks all of red orb naga's moves even after +2, (+2 252 SpA Ampharos Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Thick Fat Gliscor: 244-288 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: Naga is not in Kris' mix and mega calc so I made my own "mock naga" out of ampharos with the same stats, ability, you get the idea) and then gliscor KO's naga with earthquake in return. He may even have other countermeasures as well that I failed to recognize as... he created the team and has a better understanding of it from every angle.

The red orb naga imprrof with a blue orb steel situation isn't of the most relevant topic to the naga vs stall MU as ditto impostering the boosts isn't stall's primary way of dealing with Naga. Again, Gimme that Click has sp def rest pdon + cleric support and Quantum Tesseract has venusaurite gliscor with hearty sp def. Sure, having Naga + blue orb improof would be very helpful vs stall in case you bring about the scenario that you manage to weaken their primary check enough that they are forced to rely on ditto to stop the sweep. But skilled stall players would be aware of this situation and do everything in their power to prevent that from happening.

I'm a tad confused what you mean by running an extreme speeder or fake out to pressure naga. I'm going to assume you mean dia naga... because like ZeroPlasmaFist said earlier this thread, one of the primary perks of red orb naga is that it tanks pixispeeds with ease due to a 4x resistance and resists refrigerate moves as well. The only extreme speed that really threatens it is aerialate moves and those aren't as common as fairy type ates. Yes, extreme speed and weavile fake out pressure dia naga but like I said, stall can actually handle dia naga FAR better than red orb naga without these means because it is easy for stall to pack fat special defensive pokemon that can live any of Naga's moves at +2 and pack moves that blow through dia Naga's paper think defenses in one hit.

tl:dr Ditto isn't even stall's primary answer to red orb Naga. These builds have better initial switchins that force both naga sets out even if they're +2. I would also explain what why Naga does better vs offense and balance builds but that would make this even longer and I can't be asked.
 
#40
The suspect test period has concluded. Tagging The Immortal to remove the suspect ladder. Thanks!

Now it's time for the really fun part. Anyone who has posted reqs in the thread or reached the finals in one of the two suspect tours is eligible to participate in blind voting. As this is the first time we're conducting blind voting, I'll try to explain what I'd like to happen to the best of my abilities.

A step-by-step process on how to vote is as follows:
  1. Go to this forum and click "Post new thread" on the right-hand side.
  2. Title your thread "M&M Suspect Vote" or anything similar to that.
  3. In the body of your post, post BAN, NO BAN, or ABSTAIN (in bold preferably so it's easier to count.)
  4. Optionally, you may provide reasoning for why you have voted this way. Step 4 is not compulsory.
  5. Hit "Create Thread".
Sample Post:


I will close the voting process once the result of the suspect is decided or otherwise in exactly five days from this post.

A list of eligible voters is as follows:


There are 31 registered voters, so if 19 people vote ban*, I will close the voting process immediately. Good luck, have fun, whichever side you're on.

*If people vote abstain, this amount may be lowered to account for that. Abstain votes are treated as neutral and do not count towards either side.
 
#49
Vote: BAN

Reasoning: Naganadel is one of the mons I had an issue with in the Pidgeotite meta (some others being Deoxys-Speed, Darkrai, Shaymin-Sky). Yet, unlike multiple mons that seemed to fall flat, Nagan seems to surge in a Post-Pidg meta, something I blame partly on Deo-S's absence. However, the major blame is on his unusually effective typing that, depending on the stone he's holding, allows him to tank espeed spam, while also making him an immediate stall breaker. Not to mention his moveset is incredibly versatile, which makes counterplay a lot more difficult to pull off than with most sweepers. This is just another "2Fast2Strong" mon that, in my opinion, should've never been allowed to begin with, which is why I'm voting ban.

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