You adding the other sections into the OP?
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Moltres (QC 3/3)
- Thread starter Delko
- Start date
This analysis NEEDS a choice specs set. Just like 4th gen, with spikes support nothing in the tier can switch into Moltres more than once, and Moltres has U-turn to make sure Chansey doesnt have time to heal off hazard damage. A set of Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Grass / U-turn tears apart the metagame.
The other sets get my approval.
The other sets get my approval.
My previous posts were made here in error, so I apologize for that. This time around, I've been using Moltres in the UU tier so that I can make some topical suggestions here. As I expected, the situation is sufficiently different that my previous analysis requires lots of revising, though I won't be rewriting it or anything. I just want to address the characteristics of a sweeping set for UU.
Without Ninetales, Moltres has a harder time being a lethal sweeper, but all hope is not lost, for Sunny Day remains a valid option. I've been using Crobat as a partner, to Taunt common leads who would lay down rocks, trying to take them out using other members of the team, and with the entry threats gone, Crobat (hopefully) returns to use Sunny Day, holding a Heat Rock to prolong the sun. There are certainly many other options of Pokemon to fulfill such a role, and for some battles the chance to use the sun never really presents itself. Moltres is also a perfectly good user of the move, but it takes up a precious slot, and six turns is usually enough to dent the opponent's team nicely. My main objective here is to push for a Sunny Day set, in some form.
I've already touched on the awesome power the set holds. Assuming a Heat Rock is held, and depending on who sets up the sun, Moltres has 6-7 turns to shoot off fearsome Fire Blasts, utilize SolarBeam instead of the much weaker Hidden Power Grass, and Air Slash as necessary. Since UU is a slower tier, Agility really isn't necessary. A max speed, Timid Moltres moves faster than most of the things it will face. Flame Charge is an option to give Moltres an added jolt but each turn in the sun should really be taken full advantage of, and as stated speed isn't as critical. An option I've used is to use Substitute right before the sweep, preferably in front of a Pokemon that will switch out. This enables Moltres to survive scarf users, or muscle past things it can't OHKO.
Dragons are of little concern in UU, so Hidden Power Ice is unnecessary, as is Hidden Power Ground. Also, with auto-weather inducers much less common, there is a much lower chance that Moltres will find its sweep cut short; and more importantly, fewer times where it might get stuck with SolarBeam outside of the sun. If you can find a chance to use it, Roost is excellent, but I've decided to run with Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Air Slash/Substitute holding a Lum berry, since this is intended to be a forceful attacking set. Another option is to make the fourth moveslot U-turn, for use when the sun fades or an impassable wall like Chansey shows up.
The Stealth Rock weakness and its consequences are well-known and don't need further elaboration. Concerning the stall set, it's definitely usable, though Articuno does awfully well at it too. Choice Specs is an interesting option for added power, but Moltres really misses the versatility of having two or three attacks to choose from at once. Unless everything that resists fire is eliminated before bringing out the fire bird, I doubt the Specs set would work well in the sun, though the power behind a Fire Blast of that caliber would be a wondrous thing to behold.
Without Ninetales, Moltres has a harder time being a lethal sweeper, but all hope is not lost, for Sunny Day remains a valid option. I've been using Crobat as a partner, to Taunt common leads who would lay down rocks, trying to take them out using other members of the team, and with the entry threats gone, Crobat (hopefully) returns to use Sunny Day, holding a Heat Rock to prolong the sun. There are certainly many other options of Pokemon to fulfill such a role, and for some battles the chance to use the sun never really presents itself. Moltres is also a perfectly good user of the move, but it takes up a precious slot, and six turns is usually enough to dent the opponent's team nicely. My main objective here is to push for a Sunny Day set, in some form.
I've already touched on the awesome power the set holds. Assuming a Heat Rock is held, and depending on who sets up the sun, Moltres has 6-7 turns to shoot off fearsome Fire Blasts, utilize SolarBeam instead of the much weaker Hidden Power Grass, and Air Slash as necessary. Since UU is a slower tier, Agility really isn't necessary. A max speed, Timid Moltres moves faster than most of the things it will face. Flame Charge is an option to give Moltres an added jolt but each turn in the sun should really be taken full advantage of, and as stated speed isn't as critical. An option I've used is to use Substitute right before the sweep, preferably in front of a Pokemon that will switch out. This enables Moltres to survive scarf users, or muscle past things it can't OHKO.
Dragons are of little concern in UU, so Hidden Power Ice is unnecessary, as is Hidden Power Ground. Also, with auto-weather inducers much less common, there is a much lower chance that Moltres will find its sweep cut short; and more importantly, fewer times where it might get stuck with SolarBeam outside of the sun. If you can find a chance to use it, Roost is excellent, but I've decided to run with Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Air Slash/Substitute holding a Lum berry, since this is intended to be a forceful attacking set. Another option is to make the fourth moveslot U-turn, for use when the sun fades or an impassable wall like Chansey shows up.
The Stealth Rock weakness and its consequences are well-known and don't need further elaboration. Concerning the stall set, it's definitely usable, though Articuno does awfully well at it too. Choice Specs is an interesting option for added power, but Moltres really misses the versatility of having two or three attacks to choose from at once. Unless everything that resists fire is eliminated before bringing out the fire bird, I doubt the Specs set would work well in the sun, though the power behind a Fire Blast of that caliber would be a wondrous thing to behold.
Where are OO and checks/counters?
I agree with Snunch. "Choice Item + SR Weak = bad" is much more applicable to weaker Pokemon like Venomoth, and Choice Scarf users.
In Moltres's case, you are a lot less worried about having to switch to change moves when you can essentially destroy almost everything with a ridiculously powerful Fire Blast anyway.
In Moltres's case, you are a lot less worried about having to switch to change moves when you can essentially destroy almost everything with a ridiculously powerful Fire Blast anyway.
Turns out I misjudged how amazing a Choice Specs Fire Blast is in the sun. Even against things that resist such an attack, it is often a 2HKO, after testing it out a bit. This makes me more inclined to support such a set, but again, I really think the sun needs to be out or Moltres misses some important KOs.
To expand on what I said earlier, Moltres's offensive movepool doesn't contain much aside from the three attacks I feel every sweeping set should have. Extrasensory is a cool option to hit poison types and possibly flinch them, but Fire Blast remains stronger. Ancientpower and Ominous Wind have awesome secondary effects but both are quite feeble. Then there's Overheat, which is simply outstanding for a hit and run strategy but does not operate well with a sweep. Perhaps the specs set should consider this move? Moltres isn't built to be physical and its physical moves are quite poor; the 50 power Flame Charge is the strongest physical fire move available.
The only two checks to the sun in UU are Abomasnow and Hippopotas. The former would be a complete fool to switch into a Moltres sweep, and the latter fares better but still hates getting slapped around with strong special moves. Eviolite Chansey basically ends the party. An outright counter to Moltres in UU is hard to find. Magcargo probably comes closest to fulfilling such a role but he is almost never seen. Scarf Heracross with Stone Edge is a problem, which is why getting up a substitute is a good idea before the sweep begins, if the player knows the opponent has one. Basically anything Moltres fails to, or can't, OHKO that carries a strong rock attack can bring Moltres down instantly.
To expand on what I said earlier, Moltres's offensive movepool doesn't contain much aside from the three attacks I feel every sweeping set should have. Extrasensory is a cool option to hit poison types and possibly flinch them, but Fire Blast remains stronger. Ancientpower and Ominous Wind have awesome secondary effects but both are quite feeble. Then there's Overheat, which is simply outstanding for a hit and run strategy but does not operate well with a sweep. Perhaps the specs set should consider this move? Moltres isn't built to be physical and its physical moves are quite poor; the 50 power Flame Charge is the strongest physical fire move available.
The only two checks to the sun in UU are Abomasnow and Hippopotas. The former would be a complete fool to switch into a Moltres sweep, and the latter fares better but still hates getting slapped around with strong special moves. Eviolite Chansey basically ends the party. An outright counter to Moltres in UU is hard to find. Magcargo probably comes closest to fulfilling such a role but he is almost never seen. Scarf Heracross with Stone Edge is a problem, which is why getting up a substitute is a good idea before the sweep begins, if the player knows the opponent has one. Basically anything Moltres fails to, or can't, OHKO that carries a strong rock attack can bring Moltres down instantly.
Out of curiosity, why is Timid the only nature on the offensive set? Base 90 speed is pretty decent but the only relevant Pokemon you would outrun with a Timid nature is Heracross, since most of the base 80s go neutral speed now (and even Heracross does to a large extent). I suppose there's also Rotom, but since the most common form is Rotom-H (who resists...all your moves) I don't see much concern there.
Modest gives far more power, and I think it should be the primary option.
Modest gives far more power, and I think it should be the primary option.
wat.
