Monotype Suspect: Hoopa-Unbound (again)

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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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The council has decided to re-suspect Hoopa-Unbound.
Acast: suspect
DoW: no suspect
Eien: suspect
Paleo: suspect
rnbs: suspect
scpinion: suspect
iVid: suspect

Council Perspectives

In many cases these aren't word for word what we wrote, but they get at the heart of it. Most of our posts here aren't as in-depth, well-written, etc as what you see on the forums. We're chatting in real time, which makes that far more difficult to do effectively.

Also, you have to remember that we're discussing if it is suspect-worthy, not ban-worthy. We argue about if it is ban-worthy in the thread just like everyone else. Things are suspect worthy if we think there is a possibility they violate some portion of the tiering philosophy.

Many other people had posted by the time Acast saw the discussion. He agreed we should suspect it.

"We need another suspect if we're ever going to be comfortable with Hoopa-U's presence in the metagame"
Guess it's getting suspected in any case but for what it's worth I'm gonna vote no suspect, simply because I don't think there's been enough consideration for what gets suspected - I think we're saying "suspect hoopa-u bc psy is OP rn" without looking at whether anything else could be nerfed instead, and that hoopa-u is being looked at more than other things (at least in part) because it's a) new and b) a wallbreaker, which are always looked at more than other things even when it's not those that are broken (see: lando-i was being discussed back when we were sorting out flying).
So yeah tl;dr I'm happy to end up suspecting this, but I think we should have discussed potential suspects further before deciding on suspecting hoopa-u.

I guess a better way to phrase my vote would be "Continue discussion" rather than "no suspect"

We talked about a couple other potential suspects after this, but that discussion ultimately went nowhere.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this about whether Hoopa-U's best sets were being optimally used in the first place back when it was first suspected. Choice Band and Specs Hoopa-U were very uncommon. Life Orb sets were more tailored as anti-Steel than wallbreaking, and Choice Scarf was still quite popular. I think it was easy for people to underestimate how good it could be with the right sets. Thus, I'll vote resuspect. However, I did notice that most of the discussion on the forums and in PS! chatrooms about this was generally from people that either don't vote at all or chronically cause drama, so I do so with slight concern.
Paleo -: What puts psychic over the top?
Paleo -: Why is psychic "op" now
Paleo -: Rather than it not being op before
Paleo -: Will taking hoopa away solve this problem?
Paleo -: I don't think psy is overpowered at all
Paleo -: But hoopa is p insane
oh man i hate doing a resuspect, but i also do think that it deserved a ban last time because of it's huge movepool, insane atk/spa and additionally 130 spdef which is why it's not even really frail

[...]was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.

Vote: suspect again

i do know that my personal opinion should not be the factor to decide whether hoopa gets a suspect i do think that it definetely does deserve to be tested
My opinions on it have changed since last time and that was simply because I underestimated how good it was on Psychic. I also think we still had people that voted against the tiering philosophy out of spite or just to make a point. We re-suspected Sablenite for a similar reason (although I do think that rationale holds less ground here). Most importantly, I think it is broken and would like to see the ORAS meta end in a healthy state so we can enjoy it in MPL and other future tours.
Hoopa-U is tricky I feel like atm isn't the best of times to suspect test it. I do think Hoopa-U is a monster especially Specs Hoopa-U in combo with Mega Medi destroys multiple cores with ease. Suspect gets my vote

Ever since it was introduced, Hoopa-U has been a huge threat in the Monotype metagame. However, the community deemed it was not broken in the first suspect. In general, the council was very hesitant to redo this suspect test because we didn't feel there were external factors, like in the Sablenite suspect. However, it is clear that Hoopa-U builds are dominating the metagame, as many people have lamented over in the discussion thread.

We're primarily doing this suspect test because the metagame has evolved—specifically the manner in which Hoopa-U is used has evolved. At the time of the original suspect, the most common sets were a Choice Scarf variant or Lefties/LO with three moves tailored to beat Steel teams. For example, <30% of Hoopa-U on Psychic teams used a damage-boosting item—~10% used Choice Band and <1% used Choice Specs while the rest were LO sets.

The most recent usage stats really show how Hoopa-U has evolved. More than half the Hoopa-U on Psychic teams use damage-boosting items; while a Choice Specs set, arguably the most threatening set, now accounts for ~15% of the usage. Hoopa-U has become unpredictable and the shift away from "steel-breaker" sets has made it very difficult to reliably check. Thus, we want the community to have another opportunity to vote on Hoopa-U.

~~~~~~~~~~~~​

In order to vote in this suspect, you will need to accumulate 3120 COIL on the Monotype ladder where Hoopa-Unbound will be banned. The B-value for this suspect is 4.0. There is no game limit for this test. If you want to calculate the exact number of games a certain GXE requires, go here and replace the word GXE with the numerical GXE you're interested in and click search. To learn more about the COIL system, read Antar's thread here.

You may also view your COIL by simply typing /rank into the PS! simulator once the ladder is set up. Tagging The Immortal to set up the ladder. Thanks in advance!

We will also host suspect tours in the Monotype Events room. More details on these tours will be announced soon.

For those that obtain the requirements necessary to vote, there will be two options: global ban or no ban.

Some reference GXEs and the number of games required:
Code:
Games  GXE
218    79
110    80
74     81
56     82
45     83
38     84
(These reqs are subject to change if needed)

Participating in this suspect test does not count towards the Tiering Contributor badge.

The account you achieve your reqs with must be created on or after the date of this post and must have the correct tag at the start of it so we can ensure that everyone laddered within the suspect period.
Example: If I were to use my own name for obtaining reqs, the account I would use would be: MSH scp.

THE TAG IS: MSH

This suspect will end at 11:59pm UTC two weeks from the date the ladder goes up. By that time you must have identified with your reqs in the identification thread. The identification thread will go up during the suspect period and will be announced here as well as linked in the Monotype room.

A 60% majority in favor of banning Hoopa-U will be necessary for the ban to occur.

Intelligent and respectful debate of Hoopa-U in this thread is encouraged during the suspect period. One-line posts and shitposts are not. You are welcome to have more casual discussions on this topic in the monotype room.
 
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The council has decided to re-suspect Hoopa-Unbound.
Acast: suspect
DoW: no suspect
Eien: suspect
Paleo: suspect
rnbs: suspect
scpinion: suspect
iVid: suspect

Ever since it was introduced, Hoopa-U has been a huge threat in the Monotype metagame. However, the community deemed it was not broken in the first suspect. In general, the council was very hesitant to redo this suspect test because we didn't feel there were external factors, like in the Sablenite suspect. However, it is clear that Hoopa-U builds are dominating the metagame, as many people have lamented over in the discussion thread.

We're primarily doing this suspect test because the metagame has evolved—specifically the manner in which Hoopa-U is used has evolved. At the time of the original suspect, the most common sets were a Choice Scarf variant or Lefties/LO with three moves tailored to beat Steel teams. For example, <30% of Hoopa-U on Psychic teams used a damage-boosting item—~10% used Choice Band and <1% used Choice Specs while the rest were LO sets.

The most recent usage stats really show how Hoopa-U has evolved. More than half the Hoopa-U on Psychic teams use damage-boosting items; while a Choice Specs set, arguably the most threatening set, now accounts for ~15% of the usage. Hoopa-U has become unpredictable and the shift away from "steel-breaker" sets has made it very difficult to reliably check. Thus, we want the community to have another opportunity to vote on Hoopa-U.

~~~~~~~~~~~~​

In order to vote in this suspect, you will need to accumulate 3120 COIL on the Monotype ladder where Hoopa-Unbound will be banned. The B-value for this suspect is 4.0. There is no game limit for this test. If you want to calculate the exact number of games a certain GXE requires, go here and replace the word GXE with the numerical GXE you're interested in and click search. To learn more about the COIL system, read Antar's thread here.

You may also view your COIL by simply typing /rank into the PS! simulator once the ladder is set up. Tagging The Immortal to set up the ladder. Thanks in advance!

We will also host suspect tours in the Monotype Events room. More details on these tours will be announced soon.

For those that obtain the requirements necessary to vote, there will be two options: global ban or no ban.

Some reference GXEs and the number of games required:
Code:
Games  GXE
218    79
110    80
74     81
56     82
45     83
38     84
(These reqs are subject to change if needed)

Participating in this suspect test does not count towards the Tiering Contributor badge.

The account you achieve your reqs with must be created on or after the date of this post and must have the correct tag at the start of it so we can ensure that everyone laddered within the suspect period.
Example: If I were to use my own name for obtaining reqs, the account I would use would be: <tag> scp.

The Tag for this suspect will be announced once TI has set up the ladder with Hoopa-Unbound banned!

This suspect will end at 11:59pm UTC two weeks from the date the ladder goes up. By that time you must have identified with your reqs in the identification thread. The identification thread will go up during the suspect period and will be announced here as well as linked in the Monotype room.

A 60% majority in favor of banning Hoopa-U will be necessary for the ban to occur.

Intelligent and respectful debate of Hoopa-U in this thread is encouraged during the suspect period. One-line posts and shitposts are not. You are welcome to have more casual discussions on this topic in the monotype room.
No to be condescending, but what the hell happened to coming up with new reasons as to why it should be suspected? I haven't seen any of that, and yet its being suspected...again.

Anyways, I completely disagree with it getting banned. Why? Well, first off its slow. 80 base speed isn't a lot, but it is just enough to be a typically reliable wallbreaker. Second of all, its easy to revenge kill due to above, and its low defense (common priority such as Mach Punch or Ice Shard usually do just enough to 2KO). Not to mention, it's a wallbreaker, it's in its name, it's supposed to be hard to switch into. Not to mention, if Dark loses it, it's not only lost a mon that helps to check Fairy, but it also loses its best means to possibly win against Fighting Teams. It just lost Mega Sableye, if it loses Hoopa I don't see it being a Top Type anymore. It's not even broken as it is not to mention, that is why I am calling for No Ban. (Although, the probability of that happening is gonna be low id imagine, since it's being suspected a 2nd time, it's more likely to be banned this time around no matter what anyone says :/)
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
In general, the council was very hesitant to redo this suspect test because we didn't feel there were external factors, like in the Sablenite suspect. However, it is clear that Hoopa-U builds are dominating the metagame, as many people have lamented over in the discussion thread.

We're primarily doing this suspect test because the metagame has evolved—specifically the manner in which Hoopa-U is used has evolved. At the time of the original suspect, the most common sets were a Choice Scarf variant or Lefties/LO with three moves tailored to beat Steel teams. For example, <30% of Hoopa-U on Psychic teams used a damage-boosting item—~10% used Choice Band and <1% used Choice Specs while the rest were LO sets.

The most recent usage stats really show how Hoopa-U has evolved. More than half the Hoopa-U on Psychic teams use damage-boosting items; while a Choice Specs set, arguably the most threatening set, now accounts for ~15% of the usage. Hoopa-U has become unpredictable and the shift away from "steel-breaker" sets has made it very difficult to reliably check. Thus, we want the community to have another opportunity to vote on Hoopa-U.
 
Ok, so why does that make such a huge difference? In the metagame your supposed to adapt to new trends, how is a Choice Specs set all the sudden a problem compared to when LO or Steelbreaker (which is still technically a Wallbreaker) was highest in usage? Youre saying that's unpredictability, I say there's not much of a difference. The only difference there really is is that it's Choice locked, at the cost of no LO recoil.

My question is, why and why that alone warrants a 2nd suspect?
 
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No to be condescending, but what the hell happened to coming up with new reasons as to why it should be suspected? I haven't seen any of that, and yet its being suspected...again.

Anyways, I completely disagree with it getting banned. Why? Well, first off its slow. 80 base speed isn't a lot, but it is just enough to be a typically reliable wallbreaker. Second of all, its easy to revenge kill due to above, and its low defense (common priority such as Mach Punch or Ice Shard usually do just enough to 2KO). Not to mention, it's a wallbreaker, it's in its name, it's supposed to be hard to switch into. Not to mention, if Dark loses it, it's not only lost a mon that helps to check Fairy, but it also loses its best means to possibly win against Fighting Teams. It just lost Mega Sableye, if it loses Hoopa I don't see it being a Top Type anymore. It's not even broken as it is not to mention, that is why I am calling for No Ban. (Although, the probability of that happening is gonna be low id imagine, since it's being suspected a 2nd time, it's more likely to be banned this time around no matter what anyone says :/)
Banning something because it hurts one type isn't an argument, you've neglected to mention how it fits onto psychic at all, your saying that common priority does alot to hoopa however both psychic and dark have switch ins to most priority moves, psychic can go into any one of its other mons on a mach punch with ease, slowbro comes in on bullet punches,ice shards and Normal Priority, sucker punches can be switched into the likes of mew, though this can cause 50/50 plays against the likes bisharp they are still 50/50 hoopa can set up subs or drain punch on a suspected knock off, On dark mach punches and Normal Priority can be switched into by mandibuzz or Sableye, Ice Shard and Bullet Punches are switched into by Bisharp and sucker punch dont worry dark in the slightest. Both Types have extremely bulky cores which can be played around to keep hoopa-u healthy with psychic normally carrying healing wish which can bring hoopa back from the brink once its checks are gone. I feel dark has the capacity to adapt just as psychic can maybe not as well but it will adapt. But just because it will hurt dark is not a valid enough reason to vote no ban.
 
Banning something because it hurts one type isn't an argument, you've neglected to mention how it fits onto psychic at all, your saying that common priority does alot to hoopa however both psychic and dark have switch ins to most priority moves, psychic can go into any one of its other mons on a mach punch with ease, slowbro comes in on bullet punches,ice shards and Normal Priority, sucker punches can be switched into the likes of mew, though this can cause 50/50 plays against the likes bisharp they are still 50/50 hoopa can set up subs or drain punch on a suspected knock off, On dark mach punches and Normal Priority can be switched into by mandibuzz or Sableye, Ice Shard and Bullet Punches are switched into by Bisharp and sucker punch dont worry dark in the slightest. Both Types have extremely bulky cores which can be played around to keep hoopa-u healthy with psychic normally carrying healing wish which can bring hoopa back from the brink once its checks are gone. I feel dark has the capacity to adapt just as psychic can maybe not as well but it will adapt. But just because it will hurt dark is not a valid enough reason to vote no ban.
That's not the only thing I mentioned, but, regardless,
Banning something because it hurts one type isn't an argument, you've neglected to mention how it fits onto psychic at all, your saying that common priority does alot to hoopa however both psychic and dark have switch ins to most priority moves, psychic can go into any one of its other mons on a mach punch with ease, slowbro comes in on bullet punches,ice shards and Normal Priority, sucker punches can be switched into the likes of mew, though this can cause 50/50 plays against the likes bisharp they are still 50/50 hoopa can set up subs or drain punch on a suspected knock off, On dark mach punches and Normal Priority can be switched into by mandibuzz or Sableye, Ice Shard and Bullet Punches are switched into by Bisharp and sucker punch dont worry dark in the slightest. Both Types have extremely bulky cores which can be played around to keep hoopa-u healthy with psychic normally carrying healing wish which can bring hoopa back from the brink once its checks are gone. I feel dark has the capacity to adapt just as psychic can maybe not as well but it will adapt. But just because it will hurt dark is not a valid enough reason to vote no ban.
What does that have to do with Hoopa U itself being broken? Banning it from Psychic will not change the fact that Psychic is one of the best types, its not nerf in it any (especially with Mega Sableye gone, there's still Mega Medicham, who I think is actually more threatening). It's gonna badly nerf Dark and Dark alone. That is why I think banning it is a bad decision, I feel it subtracts more from the metagame than it adds if we were to remove it.
 
That's not the only thing I mentioned, but, regardless,

What does that have to do with Hoopa U itself being broken? Banning it from Psychic will not change the fact that Psychic is one of the best types, its not nerf in it any (especially with Mega Sableye gone, there's still Mega Medicham, who I think is actually more threatening). It's gonna badly nerf Dark and Dark alone. That is why I think banning it is a bad decision, I feel it subtracts more from the metagame than it adds if we were to remove it.
I dont understand this post whatsoever. The-Vale gave you a great explanation as to why your post proclaiming ''dark will get hurt'' doesn't fully argue that hoopa isnt broken. In your original post, you mention that:
Not to mention, if Dark loses it, it's not only lost a mon that helps to check Fairy, but it also loses its best means to possibly win against Fighting Teams. It just lost Mega Sableye, if it loses Hoopa I don't see it being a Top Type anymore. It's not even broken as it is not to mention, that is why I am calling for No Ban. (Although, the probability of that happening is gonna be low id imagine, since it's being suspected a 2nd time, it's more likely to be banned this time around no matter what anyone says :/)
How is this relevant to whether hoopa is broken? But in your response post you question this exact thing?.... And then turn around and conclude that hoopa shouldnt be banned because it will hurt dark?.. If a pokemon is being suspect tested the question should be ''is the pokemon broken or unhealthy for the metagame'', not attempting to predict the outcome of dark and psychic. If you're going to argue that hoopa u shouldnt be suspected, then use specific evidence of it not being suspect worthy/ controversial, and if you dont think its broken/unhealthy for the metagame, keep citing specific evidence... somehow.

What does that have to do with Hoopa U itself being broken? Banning it from Psychic will not change the fact that Psychic is one of the best types, its not nerf in it any (especially with Mega Sableye gone, there's still Mega Medicham, who I think is actually more threatening).
How would you possibly know that? If you're going to argue why medicham is more broken than hoopa then at least flesh that out and potentially help your case. Is it medicham's base 100 speed? Is it the fact that it has little to no counters? (unlike hoopa which literally has 0.)

Not to mention, it's a wallbreaker, it's in its name, it's supposed to be hard to switch into.
Tell me if im wrong, but is your argument that ''its good''? This argument will literally work for every single suspect pokemon.

''It has gale wings its supposed to beat fighting and grass types''
''Its a bulky sweeper with magic bounce its supposed to sweep teams''
''It's just doing its job why is it broken xD???''

Much like the last suspect test, this thread has already accumulated post where a user makes a weak but bold proclamation without evidence/explanation, which doesnt make for healthy discussion. I'm not implying your opinion on whether or not hoopa is broken is wrong, because I haven't fully formulated an opinion on it, but at least try to flesh out your thoughts and make intelligent posts.
 
That's not the only thing I mentioned, but, regardless,

What does that have to do with Hoopa U itself being broken? Banning it from Psychic will not change the fact that Psychic is one of the best types, its not nerf in it any (especially with Mega Sableye gone, there's still Mega Medicham, who I think is actually more threatening). It's gonna badly nerf Dark and Dark alone. That is why I think banning it is a bad decision, I feel it subtracts more from the metagame than it adds if we were to remove it.
If you feel itll subtract that is your view however to flip that on its head, what do we gain by banning Hoopa? One thing that springs to my mind is what steel has to gain, one of Hoopa's most popular set is the steel killer set which is aimed at dismantling steel pretty much on its own, and while yes Megamedi can do the exact same it cannot HJK freely due to Doublade something that Hoopa-u easily dispatches with Dark Pulse the removal of Hoopa I feel would make the matchup more competitive.
 
Not going to lie here and I might seriously sound so offensive but I feel we're suspecting Pokemon for fun. I'm not going to write some one liners or bold statements like multiple people but I do feel a lot of opinions were disregarded considering the ''Do not suspect again'', and there was 0 new reason to hold that.

Firstly, Hoopa-U isn't unpredictable. It's pretty much the same set that both types use to bypass their weaknesses, Dark-type teams are pretty much locked to Choice Scarf so they can have a chance against the metagame trends, while Psychic-type teams despite having more rooms tend to use either Steel Breaker or Choice Scarf while the other sets aren't used as much and shouldn't be accounted as ''breaking sets''. For Psychic-type teams, a switch is enough to deduct which set Hoopa-U is running, and please don't tell me that's the reason it's being suspected because you pretty much use the same procedure to scout Mega Gyarados's set. The usage of such sets can create some holes in team that are crucial if using the wrong set so I don't really believe the argument of being unpredictable really works in pro-ban favor. Hoopa-U doesn't really 2OHKO most Pokemon in the metagame like I have heard before, and is easily revenge killed —hint unlike a lot of Pokemon that were disregarded—. Both teams suffer a weakness to Bug-type attacks and specially U-turn, Hoopa-U isn't a low risk high reward Pokemon because it is sometimes a momentum drain, when walled once, it can be walled twice and be worn down. Its abysmal defensive typing and stats balance its attacking stats since you must be careful while playing with Hoopa-U.

Secondly, what is Dece1t trying to say and you guys are translating wrong is the Adding/Subtracting from the metagame, if you read the tiering philosophy you will understand his argument.
3. No single type should be overly powerful.
Examples: Damp Rock (Drizzle+Swift Swim) , Smooth Rock (Sand Stream + Sand Rush), CharX (Flying Core), Genesect (Steel Teams)
If a type becomes too powerful we will ban an element that nerfs the type and minimizes collateral damage from other types. This rule will be applied within the limitations of rule #1 (no complex bans). Just because a type has the most usage does not mean it is overly powerful.

Example for "Does it add to, or subtract from the metagame?".
If you look closely to the situation, banning Hoopa-U subtract from the metagame. It does not threatens any type directly, and I see no type gaining usage if its banned by I see us losing a new type which is Dark-type teams. At this moment Psychic-type teams are one of the most powerful type, it was also one of the best types prior Hoopa-U and I see nothing changing in this new meta. Hoopa-U is easily replaced on Psychic-type teams so there's no way they are going to be nerfed, so no type really gains anything. Meanwhile banning Hoopa-U will destroy Dark-type teams, they don't have a lot of Special Attackers, they have a hard time dealing with a lot of types mainly Water-, Fighting-, and Fairy-type teams removing Hoopa-U will make everything worse. Do we really want to go this far and ban Hoopa-U and all we get is ruining Dark-type teams and get... nothing?

I'd like some pro-ban users to clarify for me what we even gain from this suspect? And why is Hoopa-U the victim another time when it was innocented first without any other crime? Why don't we open our minds and look for other unhealthy Pokemon already hinted above that are far more broken? Anyways not gonna derail this thread with other suspect thoughts just wanted to get something off my mind.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I think this test is a reevaluation of whether you think Hoopa-Unbound fits the "broken" aspect of our tiering philosophy. We use OU's definitions of Uncompetitive, Broken, and Unhealthy. They're worth a read if you haven't looked them over.

To quote the relevant parts:
Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
More specifically (I added the bolded words b/c the sentences, as written, are ambiguous in my opinion)
These Pokemon aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
This perfectly describes Hoopa-Unbound. Any team without it will be at a significant disadvantage compared to one with it. This is blatantly obvious in the Psychic vs. Psychic matchup—the matchup is just sack, U-turn to Hoopa, click Dark STAB, repeat. However, it is generally true for the metagame as well.

Choice Specs Hoopa can 2HKO the meta; and it pretty much does that in 3 move slots (Dark Pulse, Psyshock, Focus Blast). Choice Band Hoopa comes close, but can't quite do it. LO sets lose out on 2HKO's on some of the bulkiest 'mons in the meta, but they ease prediction. Other fearsome wall-breakers that we haven't banned, such as Medi, Diggersby, Azu, Dragonite, or Landorus, can't do this. They're incredibly strong, but there are common Pokemon on multiple types that reliably check them.

That isn't the case with Hoopa and that is why it is broken.

I want to emphasize that people didn't use Hoopa optimally when we first suspected it. I don't think anyone had realized the Specs set was so good: CBB had not yet drawn that great picture in the OU suspect thread, while most of us just used it as a complement to Mega-Gardevoir or as a revenge killer. Things are different now—the steel breaker set isn't the most common (Specs breaks Steel anyways) and Mega-Medi is becoming a really common wall-breaking partner. I implore you guys to take this into account when thinking about how to vote this time.

~~~~~~
I want to shift gears and approach this topic from a different perspective now. Very few people dispute how broken this thing is on Psychic. However, I think a big sticking point is how Hoopa is used on Dark, where the vast majority run Choice Scarf on the ladder. There are two points I'd like to make when it comes to Hoopa-U on Dark.

First, I want to emphasize we shouldn't let something stay in the metagame because "it is only broken on one of its types". That is a logical fallacy! The things that make Hoopa broken on Psychic are equally applicable to Dark teams. It has the same stats, same move pool, same items, etc. If someone wanted to build a Dark team with Specs/Band Hoopa for a tournament match, they could easily do so and it would still nuke opposing teams just as reliably as it does on Psychic. However, that person does so with the knowledge that their team is weaker to opposing Fighting-types, specifically Keldeo. It is a tradeoff, but that doesn't make Hoopa any less broken on Dark. If anything, this emphasizes the team matchup aspect of our metagame (e.g. I nuke 16 types, but auto-lose to 2), which is objectively bad.

Second, I want to compare Hoopa-U to another 'mon that we banned. That Pokemon had incredible coverage, a great ability, and was nearly impossible to switch into. It had a really bad case of 4 move slot syndrome, but a great speed tier made up for it. However, despite the great speed tier, most Dark players still chose to slap a Choice Scarf on it. That Pokemon is Greninja.

Hoopa is just like Greninja in the Monotype metagame. It leverages its amazing coverage/power to nuke opposing teams on one type while serving as the best option to revenge kill/clean on Dark. Dark teams fared just fine in the metagame between the Greninja ban and Hoopa's release. I'm sure someone will argue that was solely due to Mega-Sableye, but I don't share that sentiment. Dark is a good type with a great defensive core and a variety of good offensive Pokemon that can pressure the metagame. Those qualities mean it will always be a good type (probably never the best, but always good). Importantly, removing Hoopa-U does little to change the things that actually make it good in this metagame.

edit: typos :(
 
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I don't really think that Hoopa-U is the same on both Psychic- and Dark-type teams. It is true that it's the same Pokemon and stuff but there's a huge factor that impacts that. Using anything other set for Dark-type teams put them at a disadvantage against a lot of types they have small breathing room for another Hoopa-U set, whereas for Psychic-type teams it can afford running other sets since the opportunity cost exists but is smaller. I also don't really think we can compare Hoopa-U to Greninja. The frog had more than one viable item on both Dark- and Water-type teams counting Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Life Orb which came with zero opportunity cost. Greninja has an amazing speed tier and ability in Protean which allows it to get any move STABed, I don't really see how both of these traits are comparable? Adding to that, dark defensive backbone can be broken far easier than Psychic's since the special defensive wall gets worn down with some hits and has no reliable recovery. Furthermore, dark rise was solely due to Mega Sableye since Greninja was banned in ORAS and not prior Mega Sableye's introduction, so dark has never known an era without these Pokemon.

I believe that the definition of broken in Monotype should be slightly different than OU, no metagame is similar as another and following a fake prophet doesn't lead to light. In OU, Pokemon are far more unpredictable, have different team mates that blocks the Pokemon weakness with resistances and immunities, plus more Pokemon to pick from to assist the Pokemon in its state.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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I don't really think that Hoopa-U is the same on both Psychic- and Dark-type teams. It is true that it's the same Pokemon and stuff but there's a huge factor that impacts that. Using anything other set for Dark-type teams put them at a disadvantage against a lot of types they have small breathing room for another Hoopa-U set, whereas for Psychic-type teams it can afford running other sets since the opportunity cost exists but is smaller. I also don't really think we can compare Hoopa-U to Greninja. The frog had more than one viable item on both Dark- and Water-type teams counting Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Life Orb which came with zero opportunity cost. Greninja has an amazing speed tier and ability in Protean which allows it to get any move STABed, I don't really see how both of these traits are comparable? Adding to that, dark defensive backbone can be broken far easier than Psychic's since the special defensive wall gets worn down with some hits and has no reliable recovery. Furthermore, dark rise was solely due to Mega Sableye since Greninja was banned in ORAS and not prior Mega Sableye's introduction, so dark has never known an era without these Pokemon.

I believe that the definition of broken in Monotype should be slightly different than OU, no metagame is similar as another and following a fake prophet doesn't lead to light. In OU, Pokemon are far more unpredictable, have different team mates that blocks the Pokemon weakness with resistances and immunities, plus more Pokemon to pick from to assist the Pokemon in its state.
The point isn't to say that Hoopa is just as good on Dark as it is on Psychic (we all know Psychic is a much better type w/ more team building options). The thing that makes Hoopa broken on Psychic, its wall-breaking ability, is equally applicable on Dark. Just because players prefer to use a Scarf doesn't mean the other sets are not viable or are not broken. For instance, what keeps me from building a team with (Mega-)Sharpedo and using it as my revenge killer (or some other scarfer), then wall break with Hoopa? I'm a bit weaker to Fighting-types, but I can try to play around them with Sab + Mandi. If I play well, Hoopa is going to nuke things just like it does on Psychic. Just because many people prefer Scarf doesn't mean they have to use it or that it keeps another set from being broken.

Also, I think you're severely undervaluing Hoopa-U's attacking power when contrasting it with Greninja. For example, Scarf Hoopa-U hits harder than LO Greninja:

252 SpA Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 213-252 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 192-227 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hoopa cleans just as effectively when holding a scarf and has significantly more wall breaking potential when holding a damage boosting item. The primary difference is the speed tier, but that isn't what makes Hoopa so good.
 
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I understand your point scpinion, but I mean what does another Hoopa-U set bring for Dark-type teams than Choice Scarf doesn't? It's true that the same factors are present but using another set hinders the team if its not specifically built around it which is a challenge, I don't really see any point of running Choice Specs Hoopa-U on Dark-type teams to be honest, it's like running a Hoopa-U on stall teams in OU just because it can run a strong set on an archetype doesn't mean it can run it on another cause it just doesn't work, there's difference in team support.
 
What a way to wake up and start my day. I'll try to make a unique argument in this post that the previous suspect did not have.

I'm just going to assume we all agree Hoopa-U is broken on Psychic. Even in the first suspect, that was agreed upon. Given that many arguments in the first suspect revolved around it not being too good, and perhaps needed, on Dark to the point that it's not worth banning on Psychic, I thought I could make that assumption. Almost nobody even attempted to defend it on Psychic, so that was a faulty interpretation. Sorry, my mistake.

Most people were still using suboptimal sets such as Choice Scarf and the original steelbreaker that had Substitute / Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Fire / Drain Punch. So now that Hoopa-U is using far more optimal sets, including the ridiculous Choice Specs set, Hoopa-U is too good on Psychic.

Now, someone has already tried to make the wallbreaker defense. This argument only shows a lack of understanding of the metagame. First, Monotype is a very biased metagame towards balanced teams. Best Flying archetype? Balance. Best Psychic archetype? Balance. Best Fairy archetype? Balance. But it's not just the best types that run balance. Rock, Electric, and Grass all use balance as well. As a result of this, it is not only natural but expected that our suspects focus on Pokemon that are wallbreakers. So when your wallbreaker has no legal switch-ins on any of the eighteen types, that is a problem. In fact, that is what I would call too good relative to the rest of the metagame. How many other wallbreakers have no legal switch-ins? I'll answer for you: none.

Fundamentally, Hoopa-U is not just one step ahead but countless steps ahead of every other wallbreaker in the current metagame. Choice Specs Hoopa-U on Psychic as a set is clearly broken.

Now, with my short preface out of the way...

Can this set be used on Dark? 100% absolutely. I've experimented with it on a new team myself with surprising results, although I never brought it to a tournament. Let's think about why it isn't being used currently though: Choice Scarf Hoopa-U is supposed to be a check to Fighting teams. Is that actually true though? Fighting teams carry Keldeo and Terrakion. Keldeo already lacked switch-ins and now that Mega Sableye is gone, Terrakion does too. SubCM Keldeo is no longer a good set on Fighting, meaning the niche of having Choice Scarf + Hyperspace Hole is no longer nearly as important. It was an unreliable answer to the SubCM Keldeo set anyway. Hoopa-U hardly saves this matchup when Keldeo, Terrakion, and Heracross outspeed the entire team and get KOs every time they're in. The other benefit is supposed to be beating Fairy with a Choice Scarf Gunk Shot. But when Choice Scarf Hoopa-U can neither OHKO Clefable nor touch Klefki, is it actually that reliable? I think Choice Scarf Hoopa-U on Dark is a relic from a past age when Hoopa-U had Mega Sableye to support it. On the other hand, Choice Specs provides Hoopa-U with the power to break through every defensive core. Dark lacks a fast, powerful wallbreaker. Other Choice Scarf users, such as Hydreigon (which gets U-turn), exist for Dark and that opened up the possibility for me to use this set and win games in a totally different way.

Choice Specs Hoopa-U on Dark doesn't have the support it does on Psychic but it is absolutely just as absurdly powerful.

If both Dark and Psychic can use a broken set, exactly what reasons are there for not banning it? The set is broken and the tiering philosophy bans broken elements. Therefore, we should ban Hoopa-U.

Edit: Removed some comments that I shouldn't have made.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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I'm just going to assume we all agree Hoopa-U is broken on Psychic.
Why make the assumption that it's broken and then write out all your arguments? If it is broken on Psychic then you ban it no matter what happens to Dark, that's a massive assumption to just start off the post with and basically invalidates the need to say anything else. I don't have a finished opinion or much to say now other than even if it is banworthy it's not nearly as disgusting as people are making it out to be and just excelling as a wallbreaker or even having no counters doesn't automatically make something broken, but this made me laugh.
e: because apparently this wasn't clear, I don't disagree with the main point (if it's broken on psychic then ban regardless of dark), it's just that we can't already assume it's broken going into a suspect discussion, if it's already broken then it would've been quickbanned but there's clearly a difference of opinion here.
 
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When saying ''we'' agreed that it's broken on both types you're probably referring to your side, there's an existent other side that feels otherwise. I don't find Hoopa-U being broken on Psychic-type teams but powerful. It hinders their weaknesses and is very useful but not to the point it completely destroys types. Adding to that you're completely wrong and neglecting the fact that Dark-type teams enjoys having Choice Scarf Hoopa-U around not for a Fighting-type teams counter, nop but for nearly the whole metagame. Of course I'm not going to use Hoopa-U at the beginning and spam Gunk Shot like an idiot cause I know it's not going to OHKO anything this early game so yes it is a crucial Pokemon and you can't deny that. Do you realize how many holes are created on Dark-type teams without Choice Scarf Hoopa-U? Cause I don't want to autolose to Water, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Keldeo and be pressured by half of the metagame. I'm not saying CHoice Specs Hoopa-U isn't viable on Dark-types team but it just creates more holes than it patches. Hydreigon is no where near Hoopa-U in terms of helping against matchups.

Also the state of the metagame that screams ''Balance'' shouldn't really be an argument, why? Cause you also said that Dark-type teams not using Choice Specs Hoopa-U isn't our problem, people building balance isn't our problem also. Do we really want to make Dark-type teams drown, just to hit Psychic usage by 1-2%? No thanks, this seems too negative for the metagame.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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Do we really want to make Dark-type teams drown, just to hit Psychic usage by 1-2%? No thanks, this seems too negative for the metagame.
This isn't the mentality to have in this (or any) suspect test in my opinion. It is too focused on a particular type (Dark in this case). This idea of only considering how a ban affects 1-2 types is what originally lead us to unban things like kyu-w and skymin ("ice and grass suck, let's make them better!") and it remains an equally troublesome mindset today when it dominates the community's tiering decisions ("let's not remove something that 2HKOs the entire meta because Dark won't be as good!") .

Also, this test isn't about nerfing Psychic, as that statement implies. It is about removing a broken Pokemon from the meta. Removing broken Pokemon is beneficial (e.g. freedom in team building, metagame diversity, diversity within a type) for all types, possibly excluding the types of the broken Pokemon.
 
Going to post possibly a controversial opinion that I genuinely don't think hoopa-u is broken (notice I said broken, not broken on psychic because it's key set doesn't really rely on team support). Let me explain why;

Now, someone has already tried to make the wallbreaker defense. This argument only shows a lack of understanding of the metagame. First, Monotype is a very biased metagame towards balanced teams. Best Flying archetype? Balance. Best Psychic archetype? Balance. Best Fairy archetype? Balance. But it's not just the best types that run balance. Rock, Electric, and Grass all use balance as well. As a result of this, it is not only natural but expected that our suspects focus on Pokemon that are wallbreakers. So when your wallbreaker has no legal switch-ins on any of the eighteen types, that is a problem. In fact, that is what I would call too good relative to the rest of the metagame. How many other wallbreakers have no legal switch-ins? I'll answer for you: none.
Cool, monotype is biased towards balanced archetypes. Notice it is balance and not stall though. There are not meant to be 100% switchins to everything, there is meant to be counterplay. Take a balanced steel mono for example: Steel cannot switch into Landorus, Garchomp or Camerupt just to name a few pokemon on ground. Conversely, every pokemon steel has can be walled by ground e.g. bisharp walled by hippo, scizor walled by Camerupt etc. Therefore on paper ground must be nerfed since steel should autolose. However, this is not the case because good steel players limit the switchins to the threats. If I have a skarmory out against an excadrill, I might just brave bird expecting the camerupt/landorus. Why? Because in conjunction with hazards I can pull off a scizor sweep even if on paper it looks impossible. Now consider hoopa; sure it is offensively strong but it lacks bulk and is also too slow, so it can be dealt with offensively. If you let it get a free switch into your wall, then yeah you're gonna lose something. However if you limit it's opportunity then you can later try to pull off a sweep of your own, and in that scenario hoopa can be a liability since it offers little defensive aid.

There are plenty of other types which can't afford to let pokemon come in for free. If gyarados gets a free dd up against psychic, then psychic loses. Do we ban gyarados? No. I can see your argument being that hoopa threatens more types straight off the bat, but pokemon such as gyara threaten plenty of types too. Also if we are talking about pokemon with no switchins, I think eien missed a few. Those being cb diggersby, landorus, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Charizard and more. Lastly monotype is a more offensive metagame than ou, which is why I feel it is not broken here although I voted ban in ou.

To sum up, while hoopa is an excellent wallbreaker it is too frail and slow to be ban worthy. Pokemon should be a game where the player is always thinking about his win conditions, not how to switch between his walls. Wrote on phone sorry for any mistakes.
 
I really don't see what's with all the complaint on Dark losing Hoopa-Unbound. As many people have already said, it isn't a important consideration to be made, to start with. Furthermore, I still believe Dark teams can work well even without the referred mon in suspect, with Sableye + Mandibuzz being able to check handful Fighting threats in the metagame. There's also a lot of options that Dark teams don't use really often and can still do very well: Weavile is a fast attacker that is often underlooked in Dark teams, and Honchkrow is able to do a similiar job checking those Fightings, which's further increased with Scarf + Moxie.

To sum up, while hoopa is an excellent wallbreaker it is too frail and slow to be ban worthy. Pokemon should be a game where the player is always thinking about his win conditions, not how to switch between his walls. Wrote on phone sorry for any mistakes.
Frail only in the physical side. Its special bulk is somewhat high and it can give special-oriented teams lots of trouble (most notably Electric) thanks to the ability to strike back vs most of those types, which further adds to its wallbreaking capabilities.

Hoopa-Unbound's ability to be unpredictable is also something that definitely deserves mention. It doesn't always use the same set. To handle it, you need to know which set it is using, else you could face undesirable consequences. Just imagine having to sack a pokemon and then it catches you offguard using Substitute. Yeah, double trouble.

That's not the only thing I mentioned, but, regardless,

What does that have to do with Hoopa U itself being broken? Banning it from Psychic will not change the fact that Psychic is one of the best types, its not nerf in it any (especially with Mega Sableye gone, there's still Mega Medicham, who I think is actually more threatening). It's gonna badly nerf Dark and Dark alone. That is why I think banning it is a bad decision, I feel it subtracts more from the metagame than it adds if we were to remove it.
What??? I don't think Psychic has any other meaningful replacement that does exactly what Hoopa-Unbound does right now on the team, and although it might keep its high usage, it will be easier for many other types to get around Psychic teams, since they will most likely not have to worry about a great wallbreaker that the pokemon is. You could say Specs Meloetta is a viable replacement, but it is a way easier pokemon to get around thanks to its ''not-so great coverage'' and the fact that it is more predictable, due to the fact that the other sets aren't really as threatening as this one.

And lastly, I believe Hoopa-Unbound is uncompetitive in the sense that it is low-skill wise to use. No big deal on predictions: Most of your moves are already putting a heavy dent anyway. Basically all you do is to click moves. Your opponent, on the other hand, has to deal with the unpredictability of its set and has to know perfectly which move you are going to use. And yes, I am not discarding the possibility of the Hoopa running a scarf set which can also turn to be a problem, should you be expecting 100% a wallbreaker set in Psychic teams, since it outspeeds the great majority of its usual, non-scarfed checks.
 
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In reply to scpinion, I'm following the mentality of the tiering philosophy if it subtracts from the meta or it adds and I see no new gains if it's getting banned. I can't deny it's a force in the metagame but it isn't in the territory of broken. It does not really 2OHKO the whole metagame and you don't click stupidly a move, there's predictions on both parts like every Pokemon situation. Plus the arguments about both Skymin and Kyurem-W don't really hit me, because both of them were clearly broken and we were approaching stuff differently back then, Skymin had the speed and special attacker to abuse and Serene Grace to flinch the foes, Hoopa-U only has the Special Attack. Kyurem-W also had amazing coverage moves and an amazing special attack with great bulk and speed allowing it to destroy a good portion of the meta where Hoopa-U doesn't stand close. If we're following the Suspect Philosophy we need to not only look at one type but at both types considered to see if it adds or subtracts from the meta. Hoopa-U is just the cherry on the top of cake for Psychic while for Dark it's the cement, I see nothing changing, we gain nothing with banning it no new types gaining popularity but a type losing so much that we lose a type and that might hit the diversity since Monotype's trend is a domino effect.

To juleocesar, even though this doesn't matter to the suspect Hoopa-U is actually a crucial Pokemon for dark, no Sableye and Mandibuzz aren't able to check handful threats in the metagame alone they crumble to offensive pressure since they relay on recovering and can get 3OHKO'd by a lot of attacks and can be played around easily. Weavile isn underlooked because you can't just slap it on any team, since Dark types are full of physical attackers and what they lack are special attackers, it really depends if Weavile brings something to the team or not. As a person that have used Honchkrow it's not that destructive as it seems like on paper, it doesn't have great speed stats, is weak to priority and Brave Bird drains from its HP only allowing it to deal some damage.

Back to Hoopa-U, it is in fact frail. It's uninvested special defense isn't really able to sponge hit as you say, it gets 3OHKO'd by most special attackers especially on electric, it's not bulky. Furthermore, Hoopa-U isn't as unpredictable as people seem it, it's not like most Pokemon can be unpredictable and run different sets. Imagine sacking something vs Landorus and it used Substitute or Rock Polish double trouble, same situation, same power, different power. You can easily predict that Hoopa-U is choice scarf on Dark with specific moves, while on Psychic it depends on the preview, if the team lacks speed control it gotta be scarf if it lacks a steel check so it's steel killer, Band and Specs aren't a problem since they are minority and can easily be counter played. On another hand, why are we using usage stats to proves that Hoopa-U is ''broken''? I mean usage stats can give an idea but they are in no way a solid place to build up arguments, imagine if a big group of people agreed on using only Ghost type on the ladder, the following month the usage stats will say an increase of Ghost type happened but does that really mean Ghost teams are really amazing and top tier? No.

Following your steps and now going into the ''Easily replaceable on Psychic argument''. Yes, Psychic will always be a top tier type even if Hoopa-U gets banned. Meloetta is the prime candidate to replace it, it has AMAZING coverage moves in Hyper Voice, Psychic, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Thunder Bolt, U-turn even better than Hoopa-U. It has better typing granting it a key immunity to Psychic and can run different viable sets SubCM, Choice Specs, Life Orb. I don't see how this can't replace Hoopa-U. There's more Pokemon that can also function as replacement.

Lastly you have clearly never used a Hoopa-U in your life, the fact that you say you can spam a move with no skills is what proves that. Hoopa-U requires predictions from both you and your opponent just like any other Pokemon situation, even against Poison a type that is weak to Hoopa-U stabs you have to predict, let me just spam Psychic or Hyperspace Hole and get walled and OHKO'd by Skuntank or Drapion. Let me just use Energy Ball here and catch that Empoleon or Gyarados, or let me click Gunk Shot and catch this Klefki, you can't really do that. And if your opponent see that you're Choice Scarf it will be an easier Counter Play while if he sees your Life Orb that's gonna be a prediction game.
 
Sorry if my post seems a bit rushed, writing from mobile:

In reply to scpinion, I'm following the mentality of the tiering philosophy if it subtracts from the meta or it adds and I see no new gains if it's getting banned.
I can attempt to list the new gains the tier can have with an hypothetical hoopa u ban:
- some types (electric, grass, ghost, steel) will breath new air with an almost impossible threat gone.
- Psychics will stop with the dumb spam Hoopa u vs Hoopa u mirror match
- Level of brokeness of psychic monos will reduce in a pinch, balancing the meta (specs Melo seems like the ideal replacement for it but I will a address later why it's not in the same hoopa-u level)

If we're following the Suspect Philosophy we need to not only look at one type but at both types considered to see if it adds or subtracts from the meta.
The suspect philosophy state than a mon is bannable if it's considered broken or uncompetitive in the metagame, in spite of its impact in a single type. That's what happened with mega sableye, was banned despite the impact of the ban on monoghost, it's the same thing now with hoopa, if it's deemed broken on psychic it will be banned despite the impact on dark teams.

Furthermore, Hoopa-U isn't as unpredictable as people seem it, it's not like most Pokemon can be unpredictable and run different sets. Imagine sacking something vs Landorus and it used Substitute or Rock Polish double trouble, same situation, same power, different power.
Im going to disagree with the comparation you are doing here: right now in the tier we have some fearsome wallbreakers, namely mega medicham, Dragonite, Landorus, victini, azumarill etc. But there is a point where these wallbreakers are different from hoopa-u: their level of unpredictability. For megacham dnite azumarill u "know" they are always gonna be physical attackers, u "know" what are going to be their moves. Same thing for Landorus, it's gonna be always a special attacker (maybe sometimes with knock off), u know as well what are its prefered moves. Victini case is a bit more complex (it can go mixed and have great movepool), but is still maneagable. This same concept don't applies to Hoopa-U: it can go mixed with great effect, and most of times u can't afford to scout the set hoopa-u is running without losing a mon right there (maybe types with bulky cores like flying/normal/water/dark can afford the luxury to scout it's sets, but not all types can do the same)

Yes, Psychic will always be a top tier type even if Hoopa-U gets banned. Meloetta is the prime candidate to replace it, it has AMAZING coverage moves in Hyper Voice, Psychic, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Thunder Bolt, U-turn even better than Hoopa-U. It has better typing granting it a key immunity to Psychic and can run different viable sets SubCM, Choice Specs, Life Orb. I don't see how this can't replace Hoopa-U. There's more Pokemon that can also function as replacement.
Again I disagree with this statement. It's obvious psychic will still be great even after the Hoopa-U Ban, but banning it it's a step in the right direction to balance the type. You claim meloetta will be an even better hoopa, I think that is actually false since in the pre-hoopa-u era the most common substitute of hoopa was specs meloetta and didnt cause problems at the time. Meloetta falls in the list of strong special attackers which have ways to hit physical (meloetta, keldeo, mega gardevoir), they are strong but they are not near close to broken, prove is no on complained about them. Hoopa-U case is different, it is in "another level", and believe me when I say "all another level", of brokeness.

scp edit: fixed what looked like a c/p error where you had the same stuff twice
 
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Sorry if my post seems a bit rushed, writing from mobile:


I can attempt to list the new gains the tier can have with an hypothetical hoopa u ban:
- some types (electric, grass, ghost, steel) will breath new air with an almost impossible threat gone.
- Psychics will stop with the dumb spam Hoopa u vs Hoopa u mirror match
- Level of brokeness of psychic monos will reduce in a pinch, balancing the meta (specs Melo seems like the ideal replacement for it but I will a address later why it's not in the same hoopa-u level)
Can you tell me how Hoopa-Unbound threatens these types? It just doesn't, all of these bar Ghost have a way of defeating Hoopa-Unbound without losing half of the team, I doubt they are going to get breathing room just because of a Pokemon that doesn't directly threatens them gets banned. That's Monotype for you, a team with a Pokemon that defeats the opposing team always has the upper hand, imagine Fire with Volcanion vs another Fire without Volcanion who has the upper hand? The Volcanion fire, does that mean volcanion is broken? No. I highly doubt Hoopa-U ALONE contributes to the overpowered state of Psychic, there's a lot of amazing Pokemon that can easily replace Hoopa-U on Psychic. I'm seeing the same arguments over and over without 0 new reasoning, can you people give me something new? I'm tired of writing the same arguments again.


The suspect philosophy state than a mon is bannable if it's considered broken or uncompetitive in the metagame, in spite of its impact in a single type. That's what happened with mega sableye, was banned despite the impact of the ban on monoghost, it's the same thing now with hoopa, if it's deemed broken on psychic it will be banned despite the impact on dark teams.
That's true, Mega Sableye is much more different that Hoopa-Unbound. Mega Sableye could handle most types in the metagame single handed and with the team support it directly swept Electric, Dark, Ghost, Poison, Steel, Fighting with one set and created holes in the other half of the metagame with its support set while here it's a different story, Hoopa-U DOES NOT destroys any type. There's various Pokemon that destroys type more than Hoopa-U but no one bat an eye but when it's Hoopa-U everyone lose their minds.


Im going to disagree with the comparation you are doing here: right now in the tier we have some fearsome wallbreakers, namely mega medicham, Dragonite, Landorus, victini, azumarill etc. But there is a point where these wallbreakers are different from hoopa-u: their level of unpredictability. For megacham dnite azumarill u "know" they are always gonna be physical attackers, u "know" what are going to be their moves. Same thing for Landorus, it's gonna be always a special attacker (maybe sometimes with knock off), u know as well what are its prefered moves. Victini case is a bit more complex (it can go mixed and have great movepool), but is still maneagable. This same concept don't applies to Hoopa-U: it can go mixed with great effect, and most of times u can't afford to scout the set hoopa-u is running without losing a mon right there (maybe types with bulky cores like flying/normal/water/dark can afford the luxury to scout it's sets, but not all types can do the same)
A wallbreaker breaks builds by its definition so they pretty much have the same role, but what stops Dragonite from being Band or Dragon Dance? What stops Victini from using Substitute? What stops Mega Heracross from using Substitute or Sword Dance nothing, they are giving you trouble if they use any moveset other than standard. Landorus is a similar Pokemon to Hoopa-U it's moveset is unpredictable, yes it's more specially based but that coverage is insane and you don't really know what it's running from Psychic, Earth power, Sludge Wave to Substitute, Rock Polish, Knock Off, Rock slide.


Again I disagree with this statement. It's obvious psychic will still be great even after the Hoopa-U Ban, but banning it it's a step in the right direction to balance it. U claim specs meloetta will be an even better
Yes Psychic will still be a great type even after the ban and that's where the suspect philosophy tells us "Stop right here, we aren't adding anything to the metagame so why continue?" I never claimed it's going to be ''BETTER" than Hoopa-U but it can plays the same role and achieve more versatility in the type.
 
Can you tell me how Hoopa-Unbound threatens these types? It just doesn't, all of these bar Ghost have a way of defeating Hoopa-Unbound without losing half of the team, I doubt they are going to get breathing room just because of a Pokemon that doesn't directly threatens them gets banned.
It's in the hands of the anti-ban side demostrate how hoopa-u is not a broken threat to most types, but since I posted that list I can explain why:

- Electric: nothing resist 2 hits of it, specially specs which dont care about burns or intimidate. Only ways to get around it is by revenge killing with banded thundurus or galvantula bug buzz, which are managed by teammates (victini/mew or latios).

For the record:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 121-144 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


- Grass: all is 2HKOed again. All grasses can do is breloom mach punch maybe? (Latios eats breloom after the spore anyway) Also celebi u turn but thats too predictable

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 250-295 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

put rocks and serperior is dead right there in 1 hit.


- Steel: steel breaker


- Ghost: do i need to explain?


I highly doubt Hoopa-U ALONE contributes to the overpowered state of Psychic, there's a lot of amazing Pokemon that can easily replace Hoopa-U on Psychic. I'm seeing the same arguments over and over without 0 new reasoning, can you people give me something new? I'm tired of writing the same arguments again.
I agree hoopa-u isn't the only factor which makes psychic monos overpowered, but is 1 of the deciding factors to it. If u have other solution to balance the type I will gladly hear it, until then let the Hoopa-U suspect continue. Also if u see the same arguments over and over again maybe a bit of truth is there, don't u think?


That's true, Mega Sableye is much more different that Hoopa-Unbound. Mega Sableye could handle most types in the metagame single handed and with the team support it directly swept Electric, Dark, Ghost, Poison, Steel, Fighting with one set and created holes in the other half of the metagame with its support set while here it's a different story, Hoopa-U DOES NOT destroys any type. There's various Pokemon that destroys type more than Hoopa-U but no one bat an eye but when it's Hoopa-U everyone lose their minds
You are doing the wrong comparison here. Mega sableye role was that of the slow bulky setup sweeper and support sometimes; hoopa-u role instead is that of the wallbreaker, but contrary to other walbreakers, hoopa-u don't have any reliable switch ins at all.


A wallbreaker breaks builds by its definition so they pretty much have the same role, but what stops Dragonite from being Band or Dragon Dance? What stops Victini from using Substitute? What stops Mega Heracross from using Substitute or Sword Dance nothing, they are giving you trouble if they use any moveset other than standard. Landorus is a similar Pokemon to Hoopa-U it's moveset is unpredictable, yes it's more specially based but that coverage is insane and you don't really know what it's running from Psychic, Earth power, Sludge Wave to Substitute, Rock Polish, Knock Off, Rock slide.
You again missed the point I think. It's true, Dragonite can go dragon dance or banded, but despite the sets skarmory/porygon 2/hippowdon/mandibuzz remain reliable checks or even counter to it because u "know" it is gonna hit physically. If its banded u can act according later. Chansey/seismitoad/gyarados/gliscor/Umbreon/... remains reliable Landorus checks despite the sets because its spe attacking nature. This same principle don't apply to hoopa-u: it's level of unpredictability and power, and ability to break walls being it physically defensive or special defensive is unparalleled in the entire metagame.
(Btw mega heracross is a mega so opportunity cost and item choice need to be taken in account there)
 
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In reply to the post above.

Grass has type combinations at their advantage, Mega Venu/Ferrothorn/Celebi/Whimsicott you don't even know which one will switch thus prediction games which doesn't always work in the Hoopa-U's user favor. Electric also has great checks for Hoopa-U the one you mentioned and more such as Zapdos, also by banning Hoopa-U these types will never gain more usage because it's not Hoopa-U that keeps them from gaining more usage because it does not threaten them directly. Also why are the calcs provided only show one of the most rare set that Hoopa-U uses, Choice Specs is good but it doesn't really far very well against a good bunch of the metagame because when you use Choice Specs you open more hole than patch in your team. I feel all these arguments that are pro-ban are like ''omg it can run a lot of sets and has insane movepool look'' without accounting the opportunity cost. What stops me from using Specs Dragonite? What stops me from using Calm Mind Lando or Rock Polish or Substitute. Your arguments are relying on the fact that Hoopa-U can run every item and every move with no opportunity cost and that's what's flawed. I'm seeing the same argument as Greninja's suspect test "Stats say it ran 1% hp fire and rock slide so omg it's so versatile every greninja is unpredictable ban pls" while the truth is these sets aren't that good and were used to test or for a specific team.

Not really, a group of people can deform the truth with their mindsets. Imagine a group of friends walking in a forest at night with fear haunting them as soon as they see a small thing moving they will run out. They will preach that they saw a ghost and continue on repeating it, but is that the truth? No. Politicians keep on repeating the same stuff but are what are they saying is true? Not everytime. I've been using the same counter-arguments, does that make my statements true? Not for everyone.

I'm pretty sure 1 True Lycan has also proved that various Pokemon don't have switchin in the metagame, I suggest you go reading his post. And Mega Sableye used to destroy types, Hoopa-U doesn't.
 
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