Saying it's good-- at least in the current meta conditions.
The point is that just the existence of Defiant users doesn't make Defog bad.
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Other Most overhyped or underated aspect this gen so far?
- Thread starter Liquidocelot
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Saying it's good-- at least in the current meta conditions.
The point is that just the existence of Defiant users doesn't make Defog bad.
By teaching it Mirror Coat, equipping it with Assault Vest and hitting the A button? Mirror Coat and Counter are (albeit potentially) damaging moves, and bare minimum in Showdown they work fine. I run Assault Vest Avalugg with Mirror Coat and Assault Vest Togekiss with Counter on separate teams and both can still use the moves just fine, no grey-out prompt. I don't own a 3DS, though, so that could be a programming issue on Showdown's end, but it makes sense considering they aren't "supplementary" moves in the traditional sense.
Come on dude, read the thread before you post. Someone already told me that I was wrong shortly after I made that post and I realized my mistake. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me a third time, okay? Okay.
Defog can set off Defiant/Competitive but there are ways that Rapid Spin can have exploitable drawbacks as well. It makes contact, so having something with Rocky Helmet, Static, Flame Body, King's Shield (I saw it on a smearlge once), Mummy, Gooey, etc can give you needless damage, status conditions or whatever. Life Orb on a spinner also costs you 10% to do insignificant extra damage on the opponent. It can also trigger (or have a chance to trigger) a few other rarer things like Weak Armor and Anger Point.
Defiant is hardly a staple for teambuilding, so I don't think it's existence should be enough to warrant a drop off in defog use. Yes bisharp is dangerous, but you can always double switch to something that forces Bisharp out (of which there are plenty of top tier threats to choose from) and win yourself a turn. For more stall oriented teams that can't just force Bisharp out, maybe his existence should be greater acknowledged in the team building process, but saying defog isn't worth it because of defiant is silly. You don't see anyone saying that about intimidate and its abusers, even though they're just as susceptible to being used by Bisharp. And let's face it, Bisharp is the only real threat using defiant (lol Purugly lol Braviery) so it shouldn't be too hard to account for him on any given team.
I'm surprised Galvantula/Smeargle is getting all this usage. I think Sticky Web is the most overused thing at the moment.
The problem I have with Sticky Web is that it's easy to blow away and its setters tend to be suicide leads. All of the Galvantula/Smeargles I've run across have been suicide leads, so they basically start the game off 5v6 AND their advantage is easily blown away. It's not difficult to get Skarm/Gliscor/Mandi in on something they wall (that is... quite a lot) or to get the Lati twins, Crobat or even Balloon Excadrill on something they outspeed. The problem is that the guys that enjoy Sticky Web tend to be slow attackers, and those are so easy to Defog on.
Suicide spikes is still usable because a lot of spike stacking teams tend to carry speedy volt-turners and are able to either keep spikes on their side of the field, or force their defogger to just die if they wanna get rid of those spikes. Then when those spikes are gone, it's 5v5 except now your opponent needs to fight an offensive team without their best wall.
Suicide Web may be able to force similar situations; do I defog with Mandi now and lose it? Or do I wait for a better moment? I just feel that sacrificing a defogger against a HO team is more detrimental than sacrificing a defogger to a slow web offense team, since a lot of the popular defoggers tend to be bulky walls that are invaluable against speedy offense
I've played around with Shuckle as a bulky web setter that can set hazards multiple times throughout the match, and it has been... so-so. It's not as bad a setup bait as people make it out. Setup sweepers get Encored into their boosting move and killing/roaring a DNite locked into DD isn't that difficult. It is absolute, complete Taunt/Sleep bait though. I paired it with Espeon to bounce back the stuff that Shuckle doesn't like, but using up 2 teamslots just to get web up somewhat consistently is kinda meh. And for fun, Contrary Shuckle can come in on a Defog and get an evasion boost. Not like that will ever ever matter. Shuckle's kinda so-so, but I'd much rather use it than those suicide setters
I think Galvantula has a bit of potential if people stop being so reckless with it.
As for punishing Defogs (Bisharp), maybe Malamar can come in on a Defog, get that evasion boost which may in turn give it extra turns to set up Superpowers. Not a staple and not reliable in the slightest, but it sounds like a really frustratingly fun idea
The problem I have with Sticky Web is that it's easy to blow away and its setters tend to be suicide leads. All of the Galvantula/Smeargles I've run across have been suicide leads, so they basically start the game off 5v6 AND their advantage is easily blown away. It's not difficult to get Skarm/Gliscor/Mandi in on something they wall (that is... quite a lot) or to get the Lati twins, Crobat or even Balloon Excadrill on something they outspeed. The problem is that the guys that enjoy Sticky Web tend to be slow attackers, and those are so easy to Defog on.
Suicide spikes is still usable because a lot of spike stacking teams tend to carry speedy volt-turners and are able to either keep spikes on their side of the field, or force their defogger to just die if they wanna get rid of those spikes. Then when those spikes are gone, it's 5v5 except now your opponent needs to fight an offensive team without their best wall.
Suicide Web may be able to force similar situations; do I defog with Mandi now and lose it? Or do I wait for a better moment? I just feel that sacrificing a defogger against a HO team is more detrimental than sacrificing a defogger to a slow web offense team, since a lot of the popular defoggers tend to be bulky walls that are invaluable against speedy offense
I've played around with Shuckle as a bulky web setter that can set hazards multiple times throughout the match, and it has been... so-so. It's not as bad a setup bait as people make it out. Setup sweepers get Encored into their boosting move and killing/roaring a DNite locked into DD isn't that difficult. It is absolute, complete Taunt/Sleep bait though. I paired it with Espeon to bounce back the stuff that Shuckle doesn't like, but using up 2 teamslots just to get web up somewhat consistently is kinda meh. And for fun, Contrary Shuckle can come in on a Defog and get an evasion boost. Not like that will ever ever matter. Shuckle's kinda so-so, but I'd much rather use it than those suicide setters
I think Galvantula has a bit of potential if people stop being so reckless with it.
As for punishing Defogs (Bisharp), maybe Malamar can come in on a Defog, get that evasion boost which may in turn give it extra turns to set up Superpowers. Not a staple and not reliable in the slightest, but it sounds like a really frustratingly fun idea
Throwing in my two cents.
Overhyped:
Sticky web. At first, it sounded like some kind of game changer that would do more than stealth rock. Revenge killing would be dead. Every team would have to run a sticky webber or rapid spinner to even the odds. Then it turned out only two viable Pokemon got it (Smeargle and Galvantula), people were prepared for it, and there was the defog nerf. This is more of a gimmick now.
Goodra. The resident psuedo-legendary of this generation was hailed as a god, but all it has is good special defense. It also lacks recovery outside of rest, and its offensive presence isn't that menacing.
Malamar. With the ability to set up contrary superpowers better than spinda, stop set-up sweepers in their tracks, and be a hard counter to king's shield, Malamar seemed like a great choice...until its stats were revealed to be quite lackluster. I'd say Malamar is still a choice, but it's not top OU material.
Physical Aegislash. It has 150/150 defenses to set up swords dances, a terrifying 150 attack when it comes out of shield form, and it also has priority, perfect ghost/fighting coverage, and a better protect. Aegislash's physical set is sadly very predictable, and doesn't bring the bang for the buck that it seemed to promise.
Parting shot. It sounds like a better memento as it lets you keep your pokemon alive, gives you momentum, and cripple the opponent. Only two viable pokemon learn this move, and neither have astounding stats.
Underrated:
Diggersby. It was dismissed as another com-mon until it was revealed to have Huge power. With more attack than Azumarill, a STAB quick attack, swords dance, eq, and a ghost immunity, Diggersby can be quite the surprise fighter in many occasions.
Talonflame. Okay, it's not underrated now, but it was underrated before. It looks to be a worse Swellow with worse typing that dooms it to being in low NU. Come on, even if it does get gale wings, that 81 attack isn't doing much, and it has a 4x weakness to stealth rock. With the defog buff, this thing can get some usage, but it's still a gimmick right? Turns out a STAB 120 base power priority move hurts a lot, and Talonflame also has the speed to U-turn out of threats before they kill it. Now it's one of the top used pokemon in OU.
Yveltal. What? A uber here? Believe it or not, there was quite a bit of talk about how Yveltal might take the same path as Kyurem-Black, but look at it now, still in Ubers because of its great stats, coverage, and moves.
Mega Blastoise. Why aren't people using this more? Sure, it looks like a slightly buffed up Clawitzer without an item, but Mega Blastoise tanks hits great, and it hits back like a tank. Definitely an under-appreciated mega.
Mega Kangaskhan. Before this got banned or extensively used, people were suggesting fun gimmick sets for this like paraflinch or special Mega Kanga. It wasn't until this became used did how broken it was become apparent.
Mega Pinsir. Probably dismissed because of 4x weak to stealth rock, Mega Pinsir sits at a decent 105 speed tier, and hits really, really hard with aerilate boosted priority and a flying type outrage.
Overhyped:
Sticky web. At first, it sounded like some kind of game changer that would do more than stealth rock. Revenge killing would be dead. Every team would have to run a sticky webber or rapid spinner to even the odds. Then it turned out only two viable Pokemon got it (Smeargle and Galvantula), people were prepared for it, and there was the defog nerf. This is more of a gimmick now.
Goodra. The resident psuedo-legendary of this generation was hailed as a god, but all it has is good special defense. It also lacks recovery outside of rest, and its offensive presence isn't that menacing.
Malamar. With the ability to set up contrary superpowers better than spinda, stop set-up sweepers in their tracks, and be a hard counter to king's shield, Malamar seemed like a great choice...until its stats were revealed to be quite lackluster. I'd say Malamar is still a choice, but it's not top OU material.
Physical Aegislash. It has 150/150 defenses to set up swords dances, a terrifying 150 attack when it comes out of shield form, and it also has priority, perfect ghost/fighting coverage, and a better protect. Aegislash's physical set is sadly very predictable, and doesn't bring the bang for the buck that it seemed to promise.
Parting shot. It sounds like a better memento as it lets you keep your pokemon alive, gives you momentum, and cripple the opponent. Only two viable pokemon learn this move, and neither have astounding stats.
Underrated:
Diggersby. It was dismissed as another com-mon until it was revealed to have Huge power. With more attack than Azumarill, a STAB quick attack, swords dance, eq, and a ghost immunity, Diggersby can be quite the surprise fighter in many occasions.
Talonflame. Okay, it's not underrated now, but it was underrated before. It looks to be a worse Swellow with worse typing that dooms it to being in low NU. Come on, even if it does get gale wings, that 81 attack isn't doing much, and it has a 4x weakness to stealth rock. With the defog buff, this thing can get some usage, but it's still a gimmick right? Turns out a STAB 120 base power priority move hurts a lot, and Talonflame also has the speed to U-turn out of threats before they kill it. Now it's one of the top used pokemon in OU.
Yveltal. What? A uber here? Believe it or not, there was quite a bit of talk about how Yveltal might take the same path as Kyurem-Black, but look at it now, still in Ubers because of its great stats, coverage, and moves.
Mega Blastoise. Why aren't people using this more? Sure, it looks like a slightly buffed up Clawitzer without an item, but Mega Blastoise tanks hits great, and it hits back like a tank. Definitely an under-appreciated mega.
Mega Kangaskhan. Before this got banned or extensively used, people were suggesting fun gimmick sets for this like paraflinch or special Mega Kanga. It wasn't until this became used did how broken it was become apparent.
Mega Pinsir. Probably dismissed because of 4x weak to stealth rock, Mega Pinsir sits at a decent 105 speed tier, and hits really, really hard with aerilate boosted priority and a flying type outrage.
Xerneas was overhyped prior to the reveal of it's full moveset. All of those Fire Blast and Earth Power theorymonning.
Ah, all of the tears.
Still a good mon tho.
Ah, all of the tears.
Still a good mon tho.
This one might seem a little weird, but a fair amount of people I know personally underrated Mega-Venasaur. Although I'm just willing to chalk this up to those same people not knowing how good regular Venusaur is.
Now for the real list:
Over Hyped:
1. Aegislash: I remember when people thought Aegislash would go uber based alone on its King's Shield and Swords Dance set. Now we know that that set is sub-par, but it seems that none of the newer and better sets have generated hype like that one.
2. Noivern: I think this comes from people thinking that there was a chance that it could be an early game Pokemon (given its early reveal) but at the end of the say you get it too late in the game for it to be useful in game. Now if only it could kill stuff competitively.
3. Mega-Gyrados: At least back when people thought that there was a chance that it could be part dragon, people were all excited over it. Now I hear nothing about it.
Under Hyped:
1. Clefable: OK guys, here me out, I went to the OU viability thread and its listed there as viable. What happened? I have no idea, I've heard absolutely nothing about him except that he's a fairy and now he shoots up and becomes viable in OU. Just wow.
2. Talonflame: I really didn't expect much from him- and neither did any one else. But here he is, with his shiny new Gale Wings and priority Acrobatics and Brave Bird and Roost, being one of the most used Pokemon.
3. Azumarill: Much like my note on Mega-Venusaur, this is a more anecdotal example. I know many people who didn't think that fairy type would be a huge buff to it but the new typing has done to it what Perma Rain couldn't: It made people want to use it more.
4. Yveltal: When people learned it was weak to Xerneas and its signature move was only 80 BP, expectations instantly dropped with some assuming that it would drop down to OU. However, Yveltal's mixed capabilities allow it to hit everything and avoid 4MSS while still making it unpredictable.
Now for the real list:
Over Hyped:
1. Aegislash: I remember when people thought Aegislash would go uber based alone on its King's Shield and Swords Dance set. Now we know that that set is sub-par, but it seems that none of the newer and better sets have generated hype like that one.
2. Noivern: I think this comes from people thinking that there was a chance that it could be an early game Pokemon (given its early reveal) but at the end of the say you get it too late in the game for it to be useful in game. Now if only it could kill stuff competitively.
3. Mega-Gyrados: At least back when people thought that there was a chance that it could be part dragon, people were all excited over it. Now I hear nothing about it.
Under Hyped:
1. Clefable: OK guys, here me out, I went to the OU viability thread and its listed there as viable. What happened? I have no idea, I've heard absolutely nothing about him except that he's a fairy and now he shoots up and becomes viable in OU. Just wow.
2. Talonflame: I really didn't expect much from him- and neither did any one else. But here he is, with his shiny new Gale Wings and priority Acrobatics and Brave Bird and Roost, being one of the most used Pokemon.
3. Azumarill: Much like my note on Mega-Venusaur, this is a more anecdotal example. I know many people who didn't think that fairy type would be a huge buff to it but the new typing has done to it what Perma Rain couldn't: It made people want to use it more.
4. Yveltal: When people learned it was weak to Xerneas and its signature move was only 80 BP, expectations instantly dropped with some assuming that it would drop down to OU. However, Yveltal's mixed capabilities allow it to hit everything and avoid 4MSS while still making it unpredictable.
Defog definitely most overhyped thing so far.
As far as overhyped Pokes the main guy who comes to mind is Aegislash. First week or so of release everyone was thinking it would go straight to ubers (people thought kings shield & SD set would be good?!?!?!) Sure, it's really good (but i'm predicting within the next few months it won't even hit top 20 in OU.)
Someone will probably laugh at me for the Poke I think if the most underhyped (concidering it was HELLA hyped up.) That guy is Azumarill. Guy will be top 10 OU as far as I can see (the ability to switch into dragons so much easier now is a HUGE buff. Oh and Fairy being such a strong offensive type doesn't hurt.)
As far as overhyped Pokes the main guy who comes to mind is Aegislash. First week or so of release everyone was thinking it would go straight to ubers (people thought kings shield & SD set would be good?!?!?!) Sure, it's really good (but i'm predicting within the next few months it won't even hit top 20 in OU.)
Someone will probably laugh at me for the Poke I think if the most underhyped (concidering it was HELLA hyped up.) That guy is Azumarill. Guy will be top 10 OU as far as I can see (the ability to switch into dragons so much easier now is a HUGE buff. Oh and Fairy being such a strong offensive type doesn't hurt.)
Greninja is ridiculously overrated and will probably drop a tier, and sticky web is barely a gimmick after all the overhype.
There were a few underrated pokes but the biggest one IMO is yveltal. While people were chewing the cud about geomancy for what seemed like forever, this beast may just be the best mixed attacker since rayquaza, plus the strongest priority in the game, plus bulk and roost. It's just silly.
There were a few underrated pokes but the biggest one IMO is yveltal. While people were chewing the cud about geomancy for what seemed like forever, this beast may just be the best mixed attacker since rayquaza, plus the strongest priority in the game, plus bulk and roost. It's just silly.
Greninja will probably drop in usage but I don't think it will drop out of OU, it's still a good revenge killer with great speed and coverage. If somehow it does drop out of OU usage, I don't think it will be allowable in UU.
Azu has received an acceptable amount of attention IMO, it's certainly powerful but it needs a bit more team support than some other crazy sweepers. It really doesn't like powerful opposing priority, status or physical walls in general, and it has to choose between power and survivability. I think CB is hands down the best set, so maybe once people start using that as a hole punch rather than building whole teams around BD Azu that crumble once it dies or gets forced out, it will pick up in usage.
Aegislash, while not uber material, is still a huge threat. I think people forget that it's not like other insanely powerful sweepers because it requires smart prediction and strategy to use - it's not just "mash A on absurdly powerful STAB attack and 6-0 the opponent." It cleans so well that I often find myself going from X-3 to X-0 with ease on the mixed set.
The biggest Over-hype this gen was Fairy-types. I cannot even express how annoying it was to read things like Solid Fairy-typing or Fairy-typing is making Dragons less common, like honestly, it is not great at all. Most Fairies are specially defensive while Dragons are mostly physically offensive. They kind of don't even effect each other. They need to rely on weak Fire-type moves to deal damage ummmm ever heard of Earthquake? The only thing that can be an argument for is Togekiss, but even then there's still Stone Edge that Garchomp can run. They also all are terrible physically. To give a good idea, Aromatisse is considered most physically bulky Fairy. And their weaknesses... Albeit Steel is relatively uncommon, Bullet Punch Scizor still exists and Poison is a STAB for Gengar, overall this was wayyyy overhyped.
Another overhype, which I'm not the first to mention, was Sticky Web. Omg this changes the game so much, uhmmm can you tell me how many Pokes use it effectively? Defensive teams get Shuckle and offensive ones get Galvantula. Albeit Galvantula isn't terrible, he's not too good, and really those are the only viable users in my opinion. This does affect the game for me, testing it on various types of teams. Safely I say it adds momentum to Bulky Offense, but that's really it's only use. Defensive teams don't give about it and fast offensive teams should be pretty fast anyways. Not a big game changer.
Defog is terrible people,let's get that out of the way. It's useful only on offensive teams that don't run any support moves or hazards, since it blows away anything you set up yourself. And when people say it's "unbouncable"... The Evasion drop is bounced back, which can actually be a big deal if you don't switch out. I must say Defog + Hynosis is cool on Crobat now but honestly it isn't very great like people are saying. I'm going to consider as useful for offensive teams as Rapid Spin is for defensive teams.
Noivern lol this thing was absolutely terrible. I remember this thing being common on Showdown and now I see maybe one a week. His Boomburst thing didn't work out too well now did it? People expected the ability to hit through subs to be useful... Until they realized that they aren't that common and it doesn't hit Ghost-types that set up subs like Gengar and Trevenant. Overall this thing did not live up to his high expectations.
The only underrated thing I can think of is Diggersby. Huge Power along with STAB priority is pretty good, and he also boasts Swords Dance and two immunities. He's no top-tier threat but he is definitely something to watch out for...
Another overhype, which I'm not the first to mention, was Sticky Web. Omg this changes the game so much, uhmmm can you tell me how many Pokes use it effectively? Defensive teams get Shuckle and offensive ones get Galvantula. Albeit Galvantula isn't terrible, he's not too good, and really those are the only viable users in my opinion. This does affect the game for me, testing it on various types of teams. Safely I say it adds momentum to Bulky Offense, but that's really it's only use. Defensive teams don't give about it and fast offensive teams should be pretty fast anyways. Not a big game changer.
Defog is terrible people,let's get that out of the way. It's useful only on offensive teams that don't run any support moves or hazards, since it blows away anything you set up yourself. And when people say it's "unbouncable"... The Evasion drop is bounced back, which can actually be a big deal if you don't switch out. I must say Defog + Hynosis is cool on Crobat now but honestly it isn't very great like people are saying. I'm going to consider as useful for offensive teams as Rapid Spin is for defensive teams.
Noivern lol this thing was absolutely terrible. I remember this thing being common on Showdown and now I see maybe one a week. His Boomburst thing didn't work out too well now did it? People expected the ability to hit through subs to be useful... Until they realized that they aren't that common and it doesn't hit Ghost-types that set up subs like Gengar and Trevenant. Overall this thing did not live up to his high expectations.
The only underrated thing I can think of is Diggersby. Huge Power along with STAB priority is pretty good, and he also boasts Swords Dance and two immunities. He's no top-tier threat but he is definitely something to watch out for...
I second that, especially with the insane amount of priority this gen, defog/rapidspin and bulky offense being very strong right now.
While I respect peoples' opinions on calling something overhyped/underhyped I believe you're going to far in calling some things terrible. I won't deny that most of the Fairies are Specially Defensive, you also need to look at Clefable which can definitely be built to be Physically Defensive and do great at it, especially with Unaware. Not only that but while everyone keep looking at the whole Dragon Immunity thing, there is the fact that they resist 3 common attack types in the forms of Dark, Bug and Fighting. If it comes to a 1 on 1 Fight against normal Scizor, Clefable can actually beat a non-boosted Scizor (and Mega Scizor as well) in some decent, not specific scenarios. Scizor can't really safely switch in either for fear of that Fire Blast. I'm not saying Fairy is the best thing every but they definitely aren't terrible.
Defog is terrible? Now that I absolutely cannot abide by. Overhyped? Possibly.
Something that has decent/great distribution, can remove Reflect/Light Screen, and can't be blocked except by Taunt? If you're team is so reliant on Stealth Rocks/Hazards you obviously won't run it just like you wouldn't run Hurricane on a team meant to keep Sun up as much as possible.
Noivern was underhyped.
Look, the difference here is you say people overhyped it, but in reality, almost no one paid attention to it, when it's just a solid, good revenge killer that hits a unique speed tier while having two good abilities. You're calling it terrible, but I have no problems with it doing what it's supposed to do - revenge kill and force others out while u-turning at the right times.
I browsed the forums for the past few months, looking through various threads and such, and almost no one gave a hoot about Noivern.
The only thread that did was the Noivern thread (with good reason, since.. it's about Noivern).
Diggersby got so much crap over the weird ass "diggersby tho" mini meme that spouted up, but I agree, it doesn't get enough attention. However, it is fairly outclassed by the other rabbit, Azumarill, as Azumarill has better typing (much better) and better dual stabs.
While I agree the defensive hype regarding Fairy types did not exactly live up, because of the stat distribution, one thing you are overlooking is Fairy typing as an offensive option. One that does have a much better distribution, and far less glass canon, than ice in being able to threaten dragon types. Its distribution as an offensive option certainly has made a difference in being able to help keep things in check.
Though looking at the defensive capabilities of MMawile, Azumaril, and Clefable it certainly does show good potential, just a lack of choices.
Still given that the typing was only introduced this gen I think we can expect subsequent games to change our perception. Though specific to these games, barring a third game, yeah I do agree defensively it isn't as dominating as hyped up to be.
Sorry I was feeling a bit ranty. By terrible, I really just meant it wouldn't completely replace Rapid Spin because of the removal of all hazards and screens.
Early in the gen I recall a lot of people using it on their teams with high expectations though. I don't deny it has good uses, but he wasn't the amazing sweeper as expected way early on in the meta game. Idk, maybe I'm wrong to call it overhyped, but people were definitely very interested in it near the beginning of the game when we were all testing out the new mons.
I think the fairy hype is at least understandable, as it only has two weaknesses (One of which, steel, is resisted by tons of secondary typings like Fairy/Water) and I think we can all agree that Outrage was in need of a counter. Having your only steel type fainted mid-game and then getting sweeped by Garchomp or Salamence was just way too common of a scenario. At least now people are thinking twice and running Dragon Claw, and it's nice that Poison and Steel type offensive moves are more viable. So eh, there was a lot of hype, but you can't deny that it's changing the metagame. For the better, I'd argue.
Noivern is a pretty cool mon that I took interest too right away but honestly it leaves a lot to be desired in the power department. Great speed and switcheroo is certainly a power asset, but what does speed matter when most utility users have the Prankster ability? It just seems like Noivern would still be getting crippled by the likes of Prankster Thunder Wave, and even if you do manage to Switcheroo your choice item, all you'll have in the end is a paralyzed Noivern with no item to boost offenses, and what good is that? Honestly, I think it's dropping, and it may even face competition with Crobat for a team slot in UU, assuming that Crobat makes a return in that tier.
Noivern is a pretty cool mon that I took interest too right away but honestly it leaves a lot to be desired in the power department. Great speed and switcheroo is certainly a power asset, but what does speed matter when most utility users have the Prankster ability? It just seems like Noivern would still be getting crippled by the likes of Prankster Thunder Wave, and even if you do manage to Switcheroo your choice item, all you'll have in the end is a paralyzed Noivern with no item to boost offenses, and what good is that? Honestly, I think it's dropping, and it may even face competition with Crobat for a team slot in UU, assuming that Crobat makes a return in that tier.
I don't understand why people think that Noivern lacks power. Timid Specs Hurricane and Draco Meteor tear huge chunks out of everything. Frisk + U-turn provides excellent scouting, and Noivern even has good support options, such as Roost, Taunt, Switcheroo, ect.
IMO, Noivern is a better user of Specs Draco Meteor than Latios.
IMO, Noivern is a better user of Specs Draco Meteor than Latios.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves, here. Latios is much better than Noivern as a Specs user. Not being weak to Stealth Rock is a huge selling point, since Draco Meteor does force you to switch after you use it. Also, take a look at its other options. Hurricane is horribly inconsistent (Focus Miss was called that for a reason), and though Noivern gets coverage options, they aren't very good when you get locked into them. Latios packs more raw power than Noivern, making switching into it less of a question of guessing the move and more of a "Who gets blasted by Draco Meteor this time?"
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (100/100/100 mon): 261-307 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (100/100/100 mon): 318-375 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Granted, Noivern is a lot better at LO sets than Latios, since it actually gets coverage and can use those options appropriately when it switches attacks.
Regardless, 97 Sp Attack will never be considered powerful in OU. Take a look at some of the attackers in OU right now and compare.
252 SpA Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (100/100/100 mon): 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (100/100/100 mon): 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def (100/100/100 mon): 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def (100/100/100 mon): 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Noivern has to use Draco Meteor to keep up with other unboosted attackers, which is pretty bad when you consider that Draco has that side effect going on. After a Draco, Noivern is pretty much fodder for anything not weak to its attacks.
I don't mean to say that Noivern is bad, because it isn't, but if you're looking for 2HKOs on nearly everything Noivern is not your mon.
Noivern is fast. Really, really fast. It outspeeds pretty much all revelant non-Scarfers in OU, although HP Ice Jolteon is still a problem. Infiltrator lets it revenge mons from behind Subs with Draco Meteor, Frisk lets it scout for items, which is good in conjunction with Switcheroo. Noivern is not a purely offensive mon. Latios and Noivern are doing entirely different things with their Specs Draco Meteors really.
Noivern also has U-Turn to scout some more.
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