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All Gens Most significant moves introduced each gen
- Thread starter Awoken
- Start date
Oh, yeah, my error, Roar/Whirlwhind were from RBY, too, if I have to make an exception for a previously introduced move, I could say them, why? Because they din't had any effect on link-battles until GSC, so, the moves din't existed at all before. But if we discard them, too, then Curse could be most probably the most important move, Belly Drum was a high-risk and high-reward tactic, but Curse is a non-risk and mild-high-reward tactic used for at least the half of the metagame, that, for me, is more significant.
rby: debatable. body slam and blizzard are up there, as well as psychic, thunder wave, and explosion. since chansey is on every team you could even say softboiled haha.
now the question isn't which move is most common, but which moved shaped the generation. that being said i'd go with psychic. why? because that's part of the reason chansey is on every team, and fewer things stand up to a strong stabbed psychic than body slams and blizzards.
gsc: curse, no argument.
when i think about it, the gsc non-oober offensive moves are really garbage.
now the question isn't which move is most common, but which moved shaped the generation. that being said i'd go with psychic. why? because that's part of the reason chansey is on every team, and fewer things stand up to a strong stabbed psychic than body slams and blizzards.
gsc: curse, no argument.
when i think about it, the gsc non-oober offensive moves are really garbage.
In GSC you have Rest (the game-defining move that totally shapes not only OU, but basically every GSC tier) followed by Spikes/Explosion (the two main offensive/stall breaking tactics of GSC OU). So yeah, Spikes is the only move of these three introduced in GSC, so you have a winner.
Off the top of my head #4 and #5 would probably be a tossup between Roar/WW and Curse. So in a list of only moves that were introduced in GSC, Curse would likely come second.
Off the top of my head #4 and #5 would probably be a tossup between Roar/WW and Curse. So in a list of only moves that were introduced in GSC, Curse would likely come second.
in dpp it's absolutely stealth rock, you won't ever find a team without it.
draco meteor is also a really big deal, as it was a huge factor in the banning of latias and salamence.
can't forget about everyone's two favorite miss moves that dp introduced, either: stone edge & focus blast.
others include close combat, roost, toxic spikes, u-turn, bullet punch, earth power, and dragon pulse.
fuck scald
draco meteor is also a really big deal, as it was a huge factor in the banning of latias and salamence.
can't forget about everyone's two favorite miss moves that dp introduced, either: stone edge & focus blast.
others include close combat, roost, toxic spikes, u-turn, bullet punch, earth power, and dragon pulse.
fuck scald
The reason I think curse influenced gsc meta more than spikes is because curse poses more of an overall threat than spikes. Almost every team is built to deal with curselax in some way, or curse heracross/tyranitar/rhydon. things like growl miltank and charm umbreon are used solely for this purpose. phazers are often used to bail you out if you allow your opponent to get in one too many curses.
The only thing spikes influences is a rapid spin move thrown on somewhere. Not everyone will be concerned with stopping spikes, but everyone will have some way of stopping a curser.
You could argue teams may be built entirely to work well with spikes, which I can't argue would influence team building strategy a lot more than curse, but then we'd be seeing it from different sides. When OP mentions influence I think "What new gen move do I have to prepare for the most?"
I'd have spikes at no. 3, behind belly drum.
Wrap is not a 415 Base Power attack. It's effectively a 45 Base Power attack with 85% accuracy and 100% flinch chance if it hits, that can also be used as a poor man's U-Turn.
Is it a good attack? Yes. Does it make the Speed stat even more important than it already was in RBY? Yes. Is it "too bugged" and "almost flawless"? No. Because nothing that gets a Wrap-like move has immunity to Thunder Wave (besides Onix, lol) and the combination of Wrap or Fire Spin with Agility (only usable by three pokemon, namely Rapidash, Moltres, and Dragonite) still suffers from the moves' inherent lack of power, imperfect accuracy (made worse if paralysed), and the need to set up Agility since Baton Pass doesn't exist in RBY - plus the fact that the move lends itself uniquely to being PP-stalled out.
If something like Aerodactyl or Dugtrio got Wrap, then yeah, it'd be unbelievably game-defining or banned to Ubers. But they don't.
I'm not gonna discuss Wrap here because it was already discussed on RBYk10, and I think they explained pretty much everything about the move, maximum power, minium power, avarage, and stuff, considering every factor possible (incluiding Golem and Rhydon!), except Gengar. So, yeah, no need to discuss that here.
Oh, yeah, about GSC's most important move, if we discard the moves of the first generation, I'm still insisting with Curse, just because you CAN'T find a team without a Curser, but you CAN find more than the 50% of times teams without Spikes, and even when we don't consider that, with a Spinner you can make Spikes pretty much useless, and the Spinners are pretty good, and even without that, as long you're able to force more switchs than your opponent, you're still having an edge, and more if you have some flyers on your side. As with Curse and other important moves of that generation, if you're totally unprepared for that, you're gonna have a bad time, but, yeah, that's the true for any important move, if you don't have any way to phaze, or stop a curser on its tracks, you losed.
Also, on RBY, Body Slam is on everything, you can't play a game without seen a Body Slammer over there, and it was a powerful, widespread, and with a nice paralyze rate move, and Normals get STAB from it. Softboiled is just on Chansey, and when Chansey is on every team, she's rarely the most powerful Pokémon of the game, and the same goes for the Recover users (but they really make things close).
Thunder Wave is just on Starmie/Slowbro, and when they both are great Pokémon and used a lot, Slowbro is still more used to abuse of Amnesia and Starmie to just annoy and clean with it's awesome speed and movepool.
But as game shapping move, Psychic is the most important move, without it, OU could be totally, but totally different, Psy dudes are not that strong with just Psybeam.
DDPt = Stealth Rock, by a huge amount, there is just no move that shapped so much a metagame as Stealth Rock, and while Rest on GSC was on almost everything and was the core of the metagame, it was still a move that you can deal with it, but Stealth Rock just shaped the 40% of the entire Pokéworld and is on literally any team, and all the teams, game planning, and literally everything, is planned around Stealth Rock. About an offensive move, Draco Meteor > Close Combat > U-Turn > Focus Blast > Any other stuff.
Oh, yeah, about GSC's most important move, if we discard the moves of the first generation, I'm still insisting with Curse, just because you CAN'T find a team without a Curser, but you CAN find more than the 50% of times teams without Spikes, and even when we don't consider that, with a Spinner you can make Spikes pretty much useless, and the Spinners are pretty good, and even without that, as long you're able to force more switchs than your opponent, you're still having an edge, and more if you have some flyers on your side. As with Curse and other important moves of that generation, if you're totally unprepared for that, you're gonna have a bad time, but, yeah, that's the true for any important move, if you don't have any way to phaze, or stop a curser on its tracks, you losed.
Also, on RBY, Body Slam is on everything, you can't play a game without seen a Body Slammer over there, and it was a powerful, widespread, and with a nice paralyze rate move, and Normals get STAB from it. Softboiled is just on Chansey, and when Chansey is on every team, she's rarely the most powerful Pokémon of the game, and the same goes for the Recover users (but they really make things close).
Thunder Wave is just on Starmie/Slowbro, and when they both are great Pokémon and used a lot, Slowbro is still more used to abuse of Amnesia and Starmie to just annoy and clean with it's awesome speed and movepool.
But as game shapping move, Psychic is the most important move, without it, OU could be totally, but totally different, Psy dudes are not that strong with just Psybeam.
DDPt = Stealth Rock, by a huge amount, there is just no move that shapped so much a metagame as Stealth Rock, and while Rest on GSC was on almost everything and was the core of the metagame, it was still a move that you can deal with it, but Stealth Rock just shaped the 40% of the entire Pokéworld and is on literally any team, and all the teams, game planning, and literally everything, is planned around Stealth Rock. About an offensive move, Draco Meteor > Close Combat > U-Turn > Focus Blast > Any other stuff.
Then you're not very good at GSC.
And you also don't sound very good at RBY either.
EDIT: To expand a bit so I don't seem like a complete asshole: curse is nowhere near omnipotent. And if you're counting stuff like curse on skarmory, well that's about as good as growl on miltank. So you're essentially saying growl is the best move. There's maybe 2 pokemon in gsc that pulls off curse, machamp and snorlax. And with snorlax, it's really attributed to snorlax being amazing, not curse being mediocre.
If you think spikes are a case of "just use a spinner", I'm simply inclined to believe you've never played anyone competitively.
And you also don't sound very good at RBY either.
EDIT: To expand a bit so I don't seem like a complete asshole: curse is nowhere near omnipotent. And if you're counting stuff like curse on skarmory, well that's about as good as growl on miltank. So you're essentially saying growl is the best move. There's maybe 2 pokemon in gsc that pulls off curse, machamp and snorlax. And with snorlax, it's really attributed to snorlax being amazing, not curse being mediocre.
If you think spikes are a case of "just use a spinner", I'm simply inclined to believe you've never played anyone competitively.
was more interested in seeing the other guys reasons for picking spikes over curse, but you seem to crave arguments, so lets see....
1. keep assuming things, you'll go far in life.
2. well, you're right about one thing.
3. Since Curseskarm stalemates growl miltank, then curse = growl? I'm saying growl is the best move? That's some great word play, let me try your advanced logic: rapid spin completely removes spikes AND deals damage, thus rapid spin is the best move. but any attack is better than rapid spin....I could go on. This isn't a topic of what beats what, but which is the most threatening.
If machamp and snorlax are the only two that can pull off curse than you're the one who hasn't battled competitively. Just the fact that you mentioned growl miltank almost implies that miltank is growling to counter cursers. This eats up as many moveslots as rapid spin, which I believe is the only thing you can really do to deal with spikes; however, your last criticism seems to connote that there is much more involved in defeating these damned spikes than rapid spin. Care to elaborate?
1. keep assuming things, you'll go far in life.
2. well, you're right about one thing.
3. Since Curseskarm stalemates growl miltank, then curse = growl? I'm saying growl is the best move? That's some great word play, let me try your advanced logic: rapid spin completely removes spikes AND deals damage, thus rapid spin is the best move. but any attack is better than rapid spin....I could go on. This isn't a topic of what beats what, but which is the most threatening.
If machamp and snorlax are the only two that can pull off curse than you're the one who hasn't battled competitively. Just the fact that you mentioned growl miltank almost implies that miltank is growling to counter cursers. This eats up as many moveslots as rapid spin, which I believe is the only thing you can really do to deal with spikes; however, your last criticism seems to connote that there is much more involved in defeating these damned spikes than rapid spin. Care to elaborate?
What he probably meant is that spikes far more commonly decide battles than curse in a competitve level of play. You can't just use a spinner and expect to be able to remove spikes in every battle, because there are ways to keep spikes even when facing a spinner (spin blocking ghosts, hpbug forr, toxic wears down cloy and gives you a chance against Starmie as well, pursuit umbreon...). And the truth is, the spikers/spinners war is what decides a very high percentage of the long GSC battles.
Against most competitive teams, curse is less threatening than Spikes, especially against stall teams. Curselax is arguably the easiest lax to neutralize, while curse rocks/skarm have almost only defensive purposes. Curse Machamp can be dangerous, I'll give you that, but it's partly because Machamp is already threatening on its own, so it's Snorlax for that matter.
So the thing is, while it is true that Curse has really shaped the GSC metagame (especially in the early days of GSC when unprepared teams were easily swept by curselax), still, once GSC started to consolidate, Spikes became more of an overall threat than curse, because overall, Curse is easier to neutralize and deal with for stall teams, and you know well stall teams have ruled GSC for a very long time.
And this was the reasoning that led me to place Curse behind Spikes.
Anyway I think Borat simply said that Curse Skarmory = Growl Miltank, not Curse = Growl. In these Pokemon, both are used for merely defensive purposes after all. And while Growl Miltank only exists to deal with Cursers, Rapid Spin is actually the only reason Starmie is OU in GSC. I mean, it's clear that Cloy and Forr would suck if you remove spikes from their movepool, but Spinless Starmie wouldn't really be a lot better.
Against most competitive teams, curse is less threatening than Spikes, especially against stall teams. Curselax is arguably the easiest lax to neutralize, while curse rocks/skarm have almost only defensive purposes. Curse Machamp can be dangerous, I'll give you that, but it's partly because Machamp is already threatening on its own, so it's Snorlax for that matter.
So the thing is, while it is true that Curse has really shaped the GSC metagame (especially in the early days of GSC when unprepared teams were easily swept by curselax), still, once GSC started to consolidate, Spikes became more of an overall threat than curse, because overall, Curse is easier to neutralize and deal with for stall teams, and you know well stall teams have ruled GSC for a very long time.
And this was the reasoning that led me to place Curse behind Spikes.
Anyway I think Borat simply said that Curse Skarmory = Growl Miltank, not Curse = Growl. In these Pokemon, both are used for merely defensive purposes after all. And while Growl Miltank only exists to deal with Cursers, Rapid Spin is actually the only reason Starmie is OU in GSC. I mean, it's clear that Cloy and Forr would suck if you remove spikes from their movepool, but Spinless Starmie wouldn't really be a lot better.
I'm repeating a lot of what crystal is saying, but here it is.
Curse isn't threatening. Even without curse, people would be running mostly the same stuff. phazers aren't there just for cursers, it's necessary for p-trappers, or any trappers really. Necessary for BP, growthers, drummers, spikes abuse yadda yadda. Nothing's really changing here. A metagame with and without curse is probably +- one move, growl. Considering only one legitimate pokemon pulls off growl, and she's there for other reasons, how much does curse shape GSC, if at all? I'd argue that curse nowdays has become every bit defensive as it is offensive (which it isn't, really).
every pokemon without curse keeps their ou/bl/whatever status regardless curse compatibility. snorlax without curse? so what. machamp? still ou. ttar? yeah. without spikes/spin, forr/cloy/starmie would be knocked down to uu/bl levels. we're talking about 3 of the top 10-15 pokemon in gsc completely riding on a single move.
Spikes wins games. Hell, you don't even NEED to keep down spikes to make a difference. quite frankly, you can force switches that are 99% a sure thing. if you send in cloy, you can bet your ass starmie is coming in, then you can go to your lax and drum. this kind of control is insane.
again, spikes wins games. i would gladly play every game of pokemon 5v6 if you're giving me spikes advantage.
EDIT: i'd still rather say rest is the game shaping move of gsc though. "Most significant moves in each generation", take out the -troduced.
Curse isn't threatening. Even without curse, people would be running mostly the same stuff. phazers aren't there just for cursers, it's necessary for p-trappers, or any trappers really. Necessary for BP, growthers, drummers, spikes abuse yadda yadda. Nothing's really changing here. A metagame with and without curse is probably +- one move, growl. Considering only one legitimate pokemon pulls off growl, and she's there for other reasons, how much does curse shape GSC, if at all? I'd argue that curse nowdays has become every bit defensive as it is offensive (which it isn't, really).
every pokemon without curse keeps their ou/bl/whatever status regardless curse compatibility. snorlax without curse? so what. machamp? still ou. ttar? yeah. without spikes/spin, forr/cloy/starmie would be knocked down to uu/bl levels. we're talking about 3 of the top 10-15 pokemon in gsc completely riding on a single move.
Spikes wins games. Hell, you don't even NEED to keep down spikes to make a difference. quite frankly, you can force switches that are 99% a sure thing. if you send in cloy, you can bet your ass starmie is coming in, then you can go to your lax and drum. this kind of control is insane.
this is simply a moronic statement. if this is the conclusion you came to, then we're clearly on different levels.
again, spikes wins games. i would gladly play every game of pokemon 5v6 if you're giving me spikes advantage.
EDIT: i'd still rather say rest is the game shaping move of gsc though. "Most significant moves in each generation", take out the -troduced.
ok hes not saying that at all so i dont know what you're trying to say lol
unless im misreading horribly, borat is saying if you removed curse from every mon that has it, not a single one moves from its current tier which is probably very true, and is a very legitimate argument against curse as a defining move
i would say it is significant the same way calm mind is - its literally just that good which is the basis of its significance.
youre gonna have a hard time denying this post o_o
unless im misreading horribly, borat is saying if you removed curse from every mon that has it, not a single one moves from its current tier which is probably very true, and is a very legitimate argument against curse as a defining move
i would say it is significant the same way calm mind is - its literally just that good which is the basis of its significance.
youre gonna have a hard time denying this post o_o
you're definitely missing the entire scope of the argument. curselax was great at one point, sure, but also during that time, blissey was #2 and alakazam held a top 5 spot. that alone makes the historical argument not hold much water.
moreover, how much of curselax's dominance can be attributed to curse, and how much to snorlax just being the best ever? well, imo, 90%+ of it is just snorlax being snorlax; very little to do with curse.
tl;dr - snorlax is gsc.
But you already did. Now back it up.
I see your points about teams being built around spikes, gengar blocking spins, etc. and about it having a significant impact on gsc meta, but I guess I just never found it as devastating. For me, spikes would be on about 2/3'rds of the teams and only about half those teams tried to utilize it more with toxic/spin blocking/encoring/curse roaring.
I agree that cursers are less effective than spikes against pure stall teams. but most people aren't willing to spend 500+ turns for a win unless there's some further incentive, like a title or money. I'm assuming we're discussing netbattle, if not then I'm definitely wrong.
The way I'll always see it is: Spikes aren't on every team, and neither is curse. They're both extremely common and threatening in different ways. If a team is built to counter spikes and not curse, it will lose many battles, but if a team can counter cursing and not spikes, it can still hold its own ground quite well. Whatever effort people use in defending/utilizing spikes opens up holes for drummers, dancers, and cursers to tear through. You can try to cover it all, but you just can't. No team is perfect.
However you want to take it, it's mostly a matter of opinion and experience. I'm probably just biased because I never used spikes, or a rapid spinner, except on the odd fun team.
I agree that cursers are less effective than spikes against pure stall teams. but most people aren't willing to spend 500+ turns for a win unless there's some further incentive, like a title or money. I'm assuming we're discussing netbattle, if not then I'm definitely wrong.
The way I'll always see it is: Spikes aren't on every team, and neither is curse. They're both extremely common and threatening in different ways. If a team is built to counter spikes and not curse, it will lose many battles, but if a team can counter cursing and not spikes, it can still hold its own ground quite well. Whatever effort people use in defending/utilizing spikes opens up holes for drummers, dancers, and cursers to tear through. You can try to cover it all, but you just can't. No team is perfect.
However you want to take it, it's mostly a matter of opinion and experience. I'm probably just biased because I never used spikes, or a rapid spinner, except on the odd fun team.
i'd argue that either spikes and/or spin is on every decent team. if not, then that team can be made better with the addition of spikes/spin. this isn't something i've ever stated publicly for the sake of gsc diversity (since a lot of people take what i say literally down to the letter), but it's always something i've believed in personally. this could be pandora's box that i'm opening by stating that.
tldr: you literally have to actively avoid "curse counters", and because there are so many, what you're left with doesn't even remotely resemble a team anymore.
what you stated is true, but what you're implying is false. spikes is every bit as dangerous, if not more dangerous against offensive teams.
this is an unfair argument. you never have to specifically "counter" curse, wherein you generally have to specifically account for spikes. countering curse is a general byproduct to teambuilding, i.e. you cannot say phazers are run for cursers; they're every bit there for reasons as ptrappers, spikes/toxic shuffling, scouting, growth, baton passing, etc. in fact, it's pretty safe to even argue that growl isn't run specifically for curse, since there's a definite p-hazing aspect to it against all physical attackers.
tldr: you literally have to actively avoid "curse counters", and because there are so many, what you're left with doesn't even remotely resemble a team anymore.
no offense, but this is why i'm me, and you're you.
There are a lot of teams without Curse. Lot of teams doesn't run Curselax or Machamp. But, you can also find Curse for strategical reasons on things like Skarmory and Steelix. That's why I like Curse. It can be used for different reasons.
If you're not running Spikes, then you're probably running Spin. And saying Spin is make Spikes useless is bullshit. Even running double spin, people still have trouble dealing with Spikes.
Psychic is not that good. Jynx is better with it, but Blizzard/Lovely Kiss are still its best moves. Starmie rarelly runs Psychic. Alakazam is not a staple, and is replaceable on almost every team (I mean, Alakazam doesn't change too much the metagame without its existence).
Exeggutor is the only one that is a staple and need Psychic to be usefull. But I found out that when I play with it, 3 out of 5 battles I don't even use it. Still, Sleep Powder and Explosion are better moves than Psychic.
Haven't looked through the replies, but
Toxic, baton pass, trick room, u-turn, roost, spore, stealth rock
Toxic, baton pass, trick room, u-turn, roost, spore, stealth rock
Psychic is only not that good because of other psychics and chansey.
2-4 pokemon on a team are on it because of psychic. Either to use it or to wall it.
At the same time I'd say body slam is the most threatening move in the meta because hardly anything wants to switch into it. Psychic is much easier to switch into. The paralysis chance on body slam makes pokemon a lot more fearful to come in on it, and pretty much everything that runs body slam except lapras can nail gengar with another move.