Movepool Revisions - Cyclohm

[Zystral]

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Introduction:

This is the thread where we will be revising Cyclohm's movepool. All aspects of Cyclohm's movepool, including TM moves, Move Tutor moves, Level-Up moves, and Egg Moves will be revised according to the limits listed below and the requirements listed in this process guide article. All process details for the revisions can be found in this thread.

Base Stat Rating & Movepool Limits:

This is where the BSR Overall Rating and Movepool Limit are decided. In accordance with this process guide article, all CAPs must have a Overall BSR limit that is balanced by the maximum of that CAP's Very Good Move (VGM) limit. The calculator for the Overall BSR of a Pokemon can be found here.

Cyclohm's Overall BSR: 324 (Very Good)

Cyclohm's Resulting Movepool Size Limit: 75
Cyclohm's Resulting VGM Limit: 35
​

Current Movepool:

Reference: Deck Knight's Winning Movepool
Move Count: 90
VGM Count: 54
​

Level-Up Moves

Move Count: 16
VGM Count: 9

H. Weather Ball
H. Gravity
1. Thundershock
1. Leer
4. Thunder Wave
7. Tackle
11. Charge
15. Spark
19. Stun Spore
22. Double-Hit
25. Discharge
29. Slack Off
33. Tri-Attack
38. Dragon Dance
45. Volt Tackle
54. Hyper Beam

TM/HM Moves

Move Count: 49
VGM Count: 27

TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM12 - Taunt
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM16 - Light Screen
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - Frustration
TM23 - Iron Tail
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM25 - Thunder
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 – Return
TM30 – Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse
TM62 - Silver Wind
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM66 - Payback
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM70 - Flash
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM78 – Captivate
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute
TM92 - Trick Room
HM03 - Surf
HM04 - Strength
HM05 - Defog
HM06 - Rock Smash

Egg Moves

Move Count: 10
VGM Count: 5

Egg Groups: Dragon / Monster

Moves
Yawn
Dragonbreath
Hydro Pump
Overheat
Curse
Fire Fang
Thunder Fang
Dragon Rush
Haze
Block

Move Tutor Moves

Move Count: 15
VGM Count: 10

Draco Meteor
Air Cutter
Fire Punch
Knock Off
Ominous Wind
ThunderPunch
Vacuum Wave
Magnet Rise
Snore
Swift
Ancientpower
Aqua Tail
Outrage
Signal Beam
Twister

New Movepool:

Move Count: 70
VGM Count: 35
​

Level-Up Moves

Move Count: 15 (1 Repeat)
VGM Count: 4 (1 Repeat)

- Whirlwind*
- Bide
- Tackle
- Growl
7. Dragon Rage
11. Charge
15. Thundershock
19. Rain Dance*
22. Double Hit
29. Sonicboom
33. Tri-Attack*
37. Discharge
42. Slack Off*
50. Thrash
59. Lock-On
59. Zap Cannon

TM/HM Moves

Move Count: 43
VGM Count: 28 (2 Repeats)

TM02 - Dragon Claw*
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM05 - Roar*
TM06 - Toxic*
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power*
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM13 - Ice Beam*
TM14 - Blizzard*
TM15 - Hyper Beam*
TM16 - Light Screen*
TM17 - Protect*
TM18 - Rain Dance*
TM21 - Frustration*
TM24 - Thunderbolt*
TM25 - Thunder*
TM26 - Earthquake*
TM27 - Return*
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower*
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM38 - Fire Blast*
TM40 - Aerial Ace*
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade*
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest*
TM45 - Attract
TM57 - Charge Beam*
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse*
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM70 - Flash
TM73 - Thunder Wave*
TM78 – Captivate
TM82 - Sleep Talk*
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM90 - Substitute*
TM92 - Trick Room*
HM03 - Surf*
HM04 - Strength
HM07 - Waterfall*

Egg Moves

Move Count: 5
VGM Count: 2

Dragonbreath
Heal Bell*
Power Gem
Hydro Pump*
Mud Slap

Move Tutor Moves

Move Count: 8 (1 Repeated)
VGM Count: 3

Draco Meteor*
Snore
Swift
Outrage*
Mud Slap
Headbutt
Signal Beam*
Twister

Egg Move Combos

Mud Slap + Hydro Pump = Swampert
Hydro Pump + Dragonbreath = Salamence
Heal Bell + Hydro Pump + Dragonbreath = Lapras
Heal Bell + Power Gem = Ampharos

Justification:

16/07/2010 Update - ALL ARE A SUK

Believe it or not, something as simple as Cyclohm was unbelievably difficult. Due to his typing and what we wanted of him, and since many moves were mutually inclusive, a lot of VGMs I had trouble deciding to cull.
Major changes - added Fire Blast for Flamethrower
added Ice Beam and Blizzard for Surf/Hydro Pump
Removed a lot of Physical attacks, removed some Special attacks that provided lacklustre coverage (Weather Ball, Volt Tackle, ZenButt, E-Punches, E-Fangs, Shadow Claw/Ball, Silver/Ominous Wind) also wtf is ddance doing on cyclohm. give it to flygon who needs it more.
Removed a lot of status/support options, such as Stun Spore, Gravity, Yawn, Knock Off. In exchange, I added Heal Bell.

The reasoning for all of this was mainly since Cyclohm was in a Pre-Latias, Post-Chomp metagame, and at the time of the process, everyone wanted him to resemble more like Swampert and Suicune as opposed to more like Forretress and Skarmory. They wanted something that could take light hits and retaliate with power as opposed to other supportive options. I've replicated this in that offensive moves fill up most of the VGM list, since you're relying on Cyclohm's great typing and amazing natural bulk to support the team instead of your attacks, so that you can concentrate on tanking and attacking.

Cyclohm's Life Orb attacker set will still be effective, and most likely dominant, if not better since I've added Ice Beam, but it has also made his direction more clear - Cyclohm can now function as an effective Tank as well, since there are less bells and whistles to sidetrack you from using him as such (i.e. Gravity). The only thing really stopping his Tank set becoming effective is that Ice Beam / Earthquake weakness. I was considering adding Will-O-Wisp, since there is one last slot, and that would really help take down the likes of Tyranitar and Choice Band Metagross, some big physical attackers who were really running rampart back in those times. It's also probably worth remembering Classic MixMence and even Mixed DDMence was still used back then too, so that gave Cyclohm a little bit more trouble. Of course, that doesn't stop the offensive set from hurting Mence on the switch, but it makes Cyclohm just that little bit worse than Swampert for tanking, even with Slack Off.

(p.s. Cyclohm used Whirlwind! BattleCAPacity4lyf)

Any comments are welcome, and opinions on Will O Wisp especially. If you'd like to protest against removal of Yawn, Stun Spore and other moves like that, please do.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay, after all of the things we talked about on IRC, I think this is ready. It meets all T-M and M-M requirements as well. I'll let this sit for a bit before I close it in completion, though, in case someone else wants to chime in.

 

[Deck Knight]

Looks fine to me in general. A lot of the moves were there for flavor (though I thought DDClohm could go somewhere with Volt Tackle, it didn't...)

One thing though: Why is Mud Slap in Egg Moves when it's not particularly good and is a Tutor? Heal Bell I get because it's sufficiently powerful to be illegal with things like Hydro Pump and Overheat, but not Mud-Slap lol.

Most of the "Wind" moves, random weathers, and Weather Ball were in because Cyclohm is basically a thundercloud Dragon. That's why it had Hail, Sandstorm, Weather Ball etc.

Weather Ball is a competitive move so you'd have to axe something else (you're at 35). Since Clohm has Fire Blast now, Overheat is probably the easiest drop (since Whirlwind + Roar is also flavorful more than competitive). Otherwise I like it.

So if you want, drop OH for Weather Ball.

Make Mud-Slap a Tutor, and add in Hail to TMs and Headbutt to Tutors. Otherwise it seems a bit unpolished flavorwise (Thunderstorms are notorious for dropping Hail >_>), as neither of these moves are of much consequence but do add to that "In-game Pokemon" feel.

Incidentally I asterisk'd all of my VGM so I'd be able to quickly count and re-count them.

 

[Zystral]

See, I don't want Weather Ball since "What is it doing"
In rain - you've got Thunder + HPump
in Sun, you've got Fire Blast / Overheat
in Hail, you've got Blizzard
in Sandstorm... you shouldn't be using Cyclohm.

In terms of Sandstorm and Hail, I can see what you mean, Hail anyway, not about Sandstorm though

Also I threw Mud Slap in Egg Moves since I remembered Swampert was Monster Group and learnt it and it was necessary from the T-M requirements.
The other big negative I have against adding all those is hitting that 75 limit.
I'll throw Hail back in, and probably Headbutt too, and Mud Slap can just be a repeat, I guess.

Thanks for the comments though, they mean a lot.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I don't mind stuff like Mud-Slap in egg moves. I actually think it's important that we don't always do the same thing and keep moves like that in the tutor group; I thought it was clever getting it through egg moves and I'd probably keep it that way. The other things Deck suggested are fine as suggestions if you want to take them; I agree that Hail makes a lot of sense and could be pretty cool. Headbutt and Weather Ball are whatever, and I really don't think Sandstorm makes any sense at all.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[Zakki]

I'm probably going to be flamed for speaking because I'm new to posting but I just want to put some opinions out there.

Of all the pokemon to get Weather Ball, Cyclohm should get it. Its a freaking thunder cloud for crying out loud; it just makes sense to me. Great strategy for the rain, if you are already going to be using it, if your like me and don't like Hydro Pump's if accuracy, Weather Ball makes a nice Addition of 100 base power Water type move with perfect accuracy, plus, its can prove effective in other weathers that might be used because of the opponent switch weather, that is if you think as strategically as I do. I say remove Overheat or Roar (if you still have Whirlwind) or Thrash (why would a thunder cloud monster be thrashing, is it into Heavy Metal?)

Roar and Whirlwind are redundant, and Whirlwind makes more sense, seeing its a LIGHTNING-headed STORMCLOUD (pure energy erupting a sound while just sitting there doesn't seem very understandable, but whipping up a tornado to blow away seems more plausible, unless one of the heads is going to shoot out toward the ground, breaking the sound barrier and scaring the other pokemon away, but hey)

lastly, I really see no reason for mudslap at all: "the thunderdragon kick ups some mud at the enemy *insert pokemons name here*

Anyway, let the shewing of me away from posting with a rude manner commence!

P.S. Nubb-ish question: does Shield Dust block the stat drop of Draco Meteor or not? Haven't really tried testing. But again I reiterate the point above.

 

[NARFNra]

@Zakki
Mud-Slap is learned by all OU Dragons, I believe it's required in movepools.

 

[Zakki]

@NARFN
Alright, hadn't realized that. Still doesn't make much sense, but whatev.

 

[SJCrew]

This Zakki dude has a point: we want to look at more redundant additions to get out of the picture before we start removing something as versatile as Weather Ball. Overheat on a pure special attacker is not a good idea at all, and is usually restricted to STAB Specs attackers for pure power, like Heatran, or mixed attackers like Infernape. Fire Blast is more than enough to handle what it needs to handle, and I'd rather see an overkill move like Overheat go. Also, Weather Ball Rock makes it so that Cyclohm isn't walled by Sp. Def Zapdos. ;)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I want to reiterate that "I like X because it can do Y" is an argument we can make for every removed move for every CAP. We have to remove moves, and we have to meet all the requirements for movepools to boot. For this reason, we can't just add back any old move because we feel like it. Now, as to the suggestions:

Weather Ball is not that great of a move on Cyclohm. Hydro Pump is better in the rain (by 30 BP), isn't morphed when TTar switches in, and is a reliable attack. Draco Meteor hits Zapdos harder than Weather Ball in a sandstorm anyway, with Thunderbolt hitting nearly as hard due to neutral damage. (Well enough to break a Substitute)

Stun Spore is "whatever." It's a VGM that really doesn't see much use on Cyclohm and really doesn't do much of anything in the first place. Just hit Ground-types with Draco Meteor.

Still doesn't make much sense, but whatev.

It doesn't really matter if it makes any sense or not; it's a trend set by Gamefreak that we have to adhere to in our movepools.

 

[SJCrew]

Even if Weather Ball is not that great a move, it's better than Overheat for Cyclohm. Overheat is completely redundant and most of the Dragons who learn Fire Blast don't even get that in addition. They already have Draco Meteor tacking off their Sp. Att as it is, and now we're talking about it seeing use on one that's strictly a special attacker? Is there really ever going to be a time where Overheat is better than Fire Blast?

I mean, if you can find even one good competitive use for Weather Ball it's going to be better than Overheat. Versatility under all weather conditions is actually pretty solid, and so is taking another check off your list.

If it really comes down to it, we can also think about removing Hydro Pump. It's just another one of those moves tossed on because we want to give our CAPs every move in the book, even if they're not entirely necessary and don't make a whole lot of sense. It's a storm cloud dragon, so Weather Ball should be about as much of a given as Thunderbolt.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

It's a storm cloud dragon, so Weather Ball should be about as much of a given as Thunderbolt.

There's a reason that virtually nothing uses Weather Ball (unreliability) and why Overheat actually sees use somewhere. Overheat is the classic immediate power (and better accuracy) battle with Fire Blast. Anyway, there is no competitive justification for Weather Ball over Overheat, so it's really up to the RL (Zystral) to decide what to do for flavor's sake.

 

[Jibaku]

As far as Weather Ball goes, I think it's most sensible to place it over Tri Attack, since Tri Attack has absolutely zero use on Cyclohm. At least Weather Ball on Cyclohm is useful in Ubers as it saves an extra moveslot (even if we aren't making the Pokemon in that direction).

(PS: Flavorwise, I still think the tradeoff can be made)

As far as other things go, some people may still want Overheat for the extra power, while you can't just toss away Roar since it's a M-M requirement with Dragon Claw. I suppose you could throw Weather Ball over Whirlwind but that p.s thing on the OP forced me to think otherwise =/

Also, if Cyclohm's VGM count didn't include Howl, I request that it is removed because it actually breaks the count as Howl has the exact same effect as Meditate, which IS in the VGM list.

 

[SJCrew]

There's a reason that virtually nothing uses Weather Ball (unreliability) and why Overheat actually sees use somewhere.

No, the reason Weather Ball isn't used is because only 8 Pokemon learn it, and only one of them is even in the standard metagame. Even Roserade, the only OU that learns it, could find some use for it, simply because Grass resisted by every Flying type in the book and a Sp. Att Stone Edge with perfect accuracy would work very well in alleviating that problem. Sandstorm is somewhat common in OU, so you don't really have to worry about that.

Overheat is the classic immediate power (and better accuracy) battle with Fire Blast.

You're thinking Flamethrower vs. Fire Blast. The power scale is higher (95 vs. 120 as opposed to 120 vs. 140), so it's less necessary to go the extra step. Using Overheat on any of Cyclohm's sets means you have to forbear Draco Meteor, where as you can use it in conjunction with Fire Blast, which is just about as powerful and doesn't lower its Sp. Att. You're not missing KOs on anything, as Jirachi, Metagross, and Brozong, the bulkiest OU Steels we have, are already OHKOed or 2HKOed by Fire Blast. Overheat doesn't change anything except for the fact that everything with CM gets an easy setup on you.

In short, Overheat will almost always be an inferior option to Fire Blast if the Pokemon isn't running mixed. Weather Ball is a unique move with at least some competitive use and makes sense from a preferential point of view (or since Pokemon is candy now, "flavor").

 

[Zystral]

Alright let me get this out here; Overheat has uses on Cyclohm simply due to the viabiliy of a Specs set with Meteor / TBolt / Overheat / Hydro Pump. That, and the fact that it lets Cyclohm provide immediate threat and checking potential to the likes of Lucario and Choice Band Metagross. Overheat is staying since it has its uses.

Roar and Tri-Attack are Type-Move requriements, so I can't do anything about that.

As for Weather Ball; Having a 100/100 move in the Rain isn't worth being utterly fucked over when Tyranitar or Abomasnow switch in. Having a 50/100 move otherwise is pointless and stupid. Cyclohm benefits so much more from Hydro Pump and STAB Thunder in the Rain that Weather Ball becomes a gimmick. There'a a reason Stratagem uses Weather Ball - It's paired up with Tyranitar. In fact, in every single Weather, there is a better option; Sun you have Overheat, Rain you have Hydro Pump, Hail you have Blizzard, and in the Sand... well why the hell do you want a Special Rock-type move anyway if you aren't Stratagem?

I don't see Weather Ball as being viable enough to earn its spot, especially if you remember that OU at the time saw a lot more Sandstorm Teams than now. Half the time you are going to end up with a redundant move that you wish you could have had something else otherwise. If Hydro Pump's accuracy is really all that deterring, Surf has base 95 Power, and the last time I checked, you aren't missing any OHKOs or 2HKOs on anything at all by switching to Surf from Weather Ball, while Hydro Pump is actually guaranteeing some OHKOs.

Flavour-wise, I can see why everyone wants Weather Ball. However, note where Weather Ball came from; Castform. Cyclohm is limited to storms, and while it has Sunny Day and Hail and whatnot, it's not going to be abusing Weather Ball's versatility. I also don't see what it's going to do with it. Yes, it's highly weather-based mon, but so what.

Flavour-wise or no, Weather Ball is NOT seeing a use on Cyclohm. Not even in-game. I'm not changing my stance on this matter.

As for Jibaku's Howl mention; I didn't notice that, I'll change it to something else

 

[SJCrew]

k tough guy, nobody's trying to force you to keep Weather Ball, I just think it's way, way less redundant than Overheat, which does absolutely nothing better than Fire Blast and usually isn't learned by Dragons that learn Fire moves (Salamence, Flygon, Altaria), save for Ubers.

20 BP higher coming from 112 Sp. Att and no STAB is not worth the constant Sp. Att drop that makes you enormous setup bait for CM users, as well as unable to garner 2HKOs or even 3HKOs when you need them. Nobody with sense is going to use it over Fire Blast because it's not as reliable and you're never, ever going to run mixed with it. If you're going to make your stance on a purely competitive basis, you have to remove Overheat too. It has neither practicality nor even a common sense factor on Cyclohm.

 

[NARFNra]

Considering Specs isn't going to stay in more than one turn usually, I think Overheat still works for the Specs set.

 

[Bilaterus]

Overheat shouldn't stay because of a slight power increase over Fire Blast on one set (which is negligible anyway) while being a move that, typically, dragons aren't supposed to get. The purpose of these movepool revisions are to make the movepools more logical and remove redundancy, so Overheat doesn't have enough of a reason to warrant a place.

Basically, agreeing with SJCrew concerning Overheat.

 

[Deck Knight]

Hey Zy, coming in again.

I'm counting up what you have again since you changed a lot.

Level-Up Moves

Move Count: 14
VGM Count: 4

H. Whirlwind*
H. Dragon Rage
- Tackle
- Growl
7. Thundershock
11. Bide
15. Charge
19. Sonicboom
26. Discharge*
20. Slack Off*
36. Tri-Attack*
43. Thrash
50. Lock-On
50. Zap Cannon

TM/HM Moves

Move Count: 39
VGM Count: 26

TM02 - Dragon Claw*
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM05 - Roar*
TM06 - Toxic*
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power*
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM13 - Ice Beam*
TM14 - Blizzard*
TM15 - Hyper Beam*
TM16 - Light Screen*
TM17 - Protect*
TM18 - Rain Dance*
TM24 - Thunderbolt*
TM25 - Thunder*
TM26 - Earthquake*
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower*
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM38 - Fire Blast*
TM40 - Aerial Ace*
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade*
TM44 - Rest*
TM45 - Attract
TM57 - Charge Beam*
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse*
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM70 - Flash
TM73 - Thunder Wave*
TM78 – Captivate
TM82 - Sleep Talk*
TM90 - Substitute*
TM92 - Trick Room*
HM03 - Surf*
HM04 - Strength
HM07 - Waterfall*

Egg Moves

Move Count: 6
VGM Count: 2

Dragonbreath
Extrasensory
Heal Bell*
Power Gem
Hydro Pump*
Mud Slap

Tutor Moves

Move Count: 7 (1 Repeated)
VGM Count: 3

Draco Meteor*
Snore
Swift
Outrage*
Mud Slap
Headbutt
Signal Beam*
Twister

So you're at exactly 35 VGM.

I'm not sure what Waterfall is doing for you though, either from a competitive or flavor perspective. Trick Room and Heal Bell seem the most superfluous. You made a good argument for Overheat, so it should go in over Waterfall I think. I think Trick Room would be more interesting for CAP Ubers, so if you wanted to remove either for Weather Ball flavor that'd also be cool.

Given how constrained you are with T-M and M-M moves, great work Zy.

 

[Zystral]

Hydro Pump -> Waterfall M-M requirement

Normally, I would throw in Weather Ball for the flavour reasons, since there's no reason not to, but it's the fact that Weather Ball is somehow a VGM which is stopping me.

Unless we can reach an agreement that Roar + Whirlwind count as one VGM, being nearly the same, it'll be difficult to reach anywhere else.

The thing is though; Weather Ball is in a similar boat to Trick Room. It really is only competitively viable in CAP Ubers, which doesn't really exist.
my current temptation right now is to just eschew all mentions of "CAP Ubers" and throw out Trick Room for Overheat and find a way to get Weather Ball in there.

I suppose the usurping of Heal Bell could happen, but I was thinking that it could let Cyclohm pull a similar job to Dragonite, being a defensive cleric and all. I'll mull over the thought and let others think about these decisions;

Trick Room and Heal Bell go out -> Weather Ball and Overheat come in
Trick Room out -> Weather Ball in
Trick Room out -> Overheat in
Heal Bell out -> Weather Ball in
Heal Bell out -> Overheat in
Weather Ball and Overheat stay out

I'm leaning towards the third option the most, myself.

 

[Zakki]

My opinion, Trick Room out -> Weather Ball in option.

Trick Room really does not make any Cyclohm. It may be slow enough to possibly use it, it doesn't make much sense. The Normal pokemon that learn TR are either Psychic or Ghost with the exceptions of Normals (Stantler [because its know to do weird things because of its antlers and its overall mystical appeal], the Porygon family [There an artifical pokemon, designed from a computer; Speed "Hacking" seems kind of something they would do], and Kecleon [I love it to death, but Kecleon is just plain weird, enough said]) and Dialga [Master of time], Palkia [master of space], and Arceus [The God, I don't think you want to contradict it]. I don't think Cyclohm falls into any catigory of Psychic, Ghost, Normal, or Legendary Bad Ass, so thats my thought process on why TR is not quite there for Cyclohm.

Overheat, though a good move, only sees usage on a Specs/Scarf Set while Fire Blast makes just as much sense on those. Personally, Overheat should go because its only on most FIRE types that want an extra kick to there one, two punch [if you know what i mean]. Overheat is only learned by Fire types with the exceptions of [strangely] Mankey and Primeape [Thrashing and anger makes lots of friction causing overwhelming heat to expunge out forth], Mew [Learns everything], Snubbull and Granbull [I think they learn every single special TM anyway; Oh! and there Fairy dogs], Loudred and Exploud [because they are that cool, that there Sound waves break more than the normal speed of sound and thus are set on Fire], Groudon [Uber Earth-Magma monster], Rayquaza [UBER dragon], Dialga [UBER dragon], and Arceus [do I have to reiterate my point from before. So unless we want to vote up again like an Uber dragon, I say its not needed.

Heal bell would make I nice addition with its bulky-ness, much like Dragonite, and Weather Ball adds flavour, makes EVEN more sense than a small sometimes levitating Rock monster [aka Stratagem] (Weather Dragon storm cloud = Yes to Weather Ball), and is actually better competitive than you think [go try it, it works well if you ACTUALLY plan a strategy].

Thats my Monologue and thoughts, continue on.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Cyclohm is actually pretty slow, very physically bulky, and can hit extraordinarily hard. Do not underestimate the value of a Trick Room set even in OU (Don't make me prove it to you and whoop your butt with it). If you want to get frisky about flavor, too, keep in mind that Palkia and Dialga have set precedent for grounded dragons getting Trick Room (don't say Garchomp!).

I really don't think Weather Ball is that important. Cyclohm has a lot of "important" moves that really can't be ditched, and the loss of Weather Ball sucks, but it's not the end of the world.

Let me talk to Doug about this Roar/Whirlwind issue. I really think they should count, together, as 1 VGM, but if he disagrees, then there's nothing I can do.

 

[smallvizier]

Remember the whole point of changing the movepool rules was that CaP movepools were too wide in comparison to the OU metagame. The new limits were chosen delibarately to

- be representative of OU movepools
- force hard choices (and the loss of strong options) on those CaPs with bloated movepools.

If Zystral is saying, "I can't get every move we wanted into the movepool," then that means the revision process is working. We shouldn't respond by getting Cyclohm's limit raised - raised beyond a level appropriate to its base stats. Certainly not without anyone having posted,

"Cyclohm's concept needs very good base stats and more than its share of VGMs because X."

Disclaimer: another relative newcomer here. Sorry! If you tell me I'm wrong then I'll take it with good grace. I just wanted to point out that if this process wasn't painful, it wouldn't be worth doing in the first place.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

If Zystral is saying, "I can't get every move we wanted into the movepool," then that means the revision process is working. We shouldn't respond by getting Cyclohm's limit raised - raised beyond a level appropriate to its base stats. Certainly not without anyone having posted,

We cannot change Cyclohm's limit anyway. It is fixed. All we can do is try to work around the limit to create something that has all of what is needed and some flavor stuff on the side. This is a good thing, I agree. :)

 

[Zakki]

Cyclohm is actually pretty slow, very physically bulky, and can hit extraordinarily hard. Do not underestimate the value of a Trick Room set even in OU (Don't make me prove it to you and whoop your butt with it).

One: I see your point, Cyclohm would do well in a TR, I wasn't disagreeing with your comment [re-read what I wrote before you assume something because, as most of know the little jingle that goes with the word ASSuME], but just because it is good in a TR does not mean it has to be the one to set it up (actually Fidget setting TR up [which by the way, Fidget must fall into the Category of Kecleon, because it makes no sense to why it should have it, just putting that tidbit out there] would actually be better because then you could probably get a 6 turn sweep with a Rampaging thunder cloud than a 4 or 5 turn sweep if it set it up itself and potentially come in without taking damage because Fidget [being reasonably fast would take the hit from the first atk or they switch and then its bulk would take the second one and u-turn to Cyclohm] but anyway.

Two: Explain to me how in the world a Thundercloud warps time to make it go first as well as slower team mates. Just give me one fictitious reason how it would even work; give me the best platter of move process poo that you could muster. I want to hear it [or read it as the case might be].

I really don't think Weather Ball is that important. Cyclohm has a lot of "important" moves that really can't be ditched, and the loss of Weather Ball sucks, but it's not the end of the world.

The two moves that are on the table that are "important" moves that could be seen as being ditched are Overheat, Trick Room, Heal Bell, and Weather Ball. If you plead that Weather Ball is situational, well as far as I see all of the rest are as well.
Overheat - Specs/Sunny Day team power (fire type is more suited and Fire Weather Ball would be just as good, or Fire Blast, and then you don't have to switch after one move). Also if you want to plead Accuracy between Overheat and Fire Blast, coming from a Stats student, they are both in the second percentile and are not making that much of difference on accuracy over all.
Trick Room - Team is surrounded in usage for Trick Room, Fidget does a much better jump to keep it going.
Heal Bell - Bulky-clohm is about the only thing, but still worth while sense Cyclohm doesn't have a large number of weaknesses, mostly just Ice and Ground with others throw in there.
Weather Ball - Has more than TWO situations that it would be useful (three off the bat if you don't think it should be in Sand)

With those considerations, Heal Bell and Weather Ball still look a better desision to me, not only because they make more sense on the pokemon at hand, but also because they would be more useful in the long run.