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Movepool Revisions - Cyclohm

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ZakkiOrichalcum said:
  • Explain to me how in the world a Thundercloud warps time to make it go first as well as slower team mates. Just give me one fictitious reason how it would even work; give me the best platter of move process poo that you could muster. I want to hear it [or read it as the case might be].
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This is really not our concern right now. The movepools were all vetted by the community when Cyclohm was made, and they decided it was okay for our Electric Whirlwind to use Trick Room. We might have to drop it because we don't have the space... but we shouldn't decide to drop it for flavour reasons, because that choice was made when the community voted for Deck Knight's original movepool.

Rising_Dusk said:
  • The focus of this reversion project is to objectively apply, as closely as possible, the new movepool requirements and restrictions to all previous CAPs. The keyword here is "objectively," wherein we cannot add arbitrary moves because we know/think they will be fair. We must adhere to the concepts and the original movepools as closely as possible.
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^^ That's the bit I'm talking about. ^^
 
Gonna put this out here; Zakki, everything I've seen from you so far is based PURELY on flavour, and while it isn't discouraged for the purposes of these revisions, I'd like to still see a bit more competitive reasoning behind all of this.

I have stated my arguments competitively against Weather Ball twice now, in that Cyclohm always has a better option in any instance, and that the "back-up" coverage given by running Hydro Pump AND Fire Blast together is a lot more useful in case no other persistent weather exists.
I would rather run Dragon Pulse / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump / Thunderbolt than Rain Dance / Thunder / Weather Ball / Dragon Pulse, due to reliability and quite bluntly, more efficiency.

Overheat I actually wanted since;
252 Timid Life Orb Cyclohm Fire Blast

vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Jirachi : 75.7% - 89.1%
vs. 252/0 Adamant Choice Band Metagross : 91.8% - 108.2%
vs. 252/92 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 66.9% - 78.7%
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Meanwhile
252 Timid Life Orb Cyclohm Overheat

vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Jirachi : 88.1% - 104%
vs. 252/0 Adamant Choice Band Metagross : 107.1% - 126.4%
vs. 252/92 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 78.1% - 92.3%
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there is enough of a difference that the numbers speak for themselves. And while I may not be in the best position to claim this, Overheat has better accuracy than Fire Blast, should you wish to switch in and check the likes of Metagross and Jirachi immediately. With Overheat, you guarantee the OHKO on full health Metagross.

and in regards to accuracy, the "why not use Flamethrower" problem;
252 Timid Life Orb Cyclohm Flamethrower

vs. 252/0 Adamant Choice Band Metagross : 73.1% - 86.3%
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Jirachi : 60.4% - 71.3%
vs. 252/92 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 53.3% - 62.7%
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Oh dear indeed.


As for Trick Room. I don't play Ubers at all, but I know from talking with Theorymon that Trick Room Palkia and Dialga are seriously viable. However, Cyclohm is nothing like them. It doesn't even come CLOSE to their power (seriously 118 SpA vs 150 SpA) nor does it come close to their bulk. I understand they're obviously Uber and Cyclohm is obviously made for OU, but then that only subtracts from the viability more. No offense to Jibaku and the others, but CAP Ubers is, imo a total gimmick which may be fun for LNTs, but does not earn any priority on my list.
 
Fine, fine, I'll learn my place. Subordinate Newb-to-posting.
Oust TR for Overheat. Heal Bell I still see as viable. I say keep that one in the least, give a second bulky dragon wall like Dragonite.
 
Zystral said:
As for Trick Room. I don't play Ubers at all, but I know from talking with Theorymon that Trick Room Palkia and Dialga are seriously viable. However, Cyclohm is nothing like them. It doesn't even come CLOSE to their power (seriously 118 SpA vs 150 SpA) nor does it come close to their bulk. I understand they're obviously Uber and Cyclohm is obviously made for OU, but then that only subtracts from the viability more. No offense to Jibaku and the others, but CAP Ubers is, imo a total gimmick which may be fun for LNTs, but does not earn any priority on my list.
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I'm not even talking about CAP Ubers when I talk about TR Cyclohm. I'm only saying, for purely flavor reasons, that there exists precedent for dragons to get TR. In lieu of that (and for flavor purposes), TR is no less meaningful than Weather Ball, both of which are pretty niche, and both of which largely exist for flavor purposes.

Overheat is a nifty move too, and I agree that it's good to have for the Specs set for a bit of oomph. It's also competitively meaningful in OU, more-so than Weather Ball, and probably a little more-so than TR, so that says something.

At the end of the day, Zy, it's up to you to just make up your mind. :P
 
Zakki - I wasn't trying to be mean, I just wanted to see some competitive discussion, since that's the point of these revisions.

I've removed Trick Room and added Overheat, and that's my final decision, since nobody else has said anything.
I'm now happy with how this movepool stands, and unless there is a really compelling argument for something else, I'll unlikely change it.
 
Zy - And I was looking at it from a Competitive stand point. Just because I'm new HERE, does not mean "I know nothing," I'm not Schultz. I would see it as a viable option. May someone as you like imitate power, I like strategy. Its how all things play out. I was inputting for competitive stand point and for flavour, that makes sense. Anyway, Oveheat will still work on whatever my happen upon it.
 
I didn't even know Cyclohm learned Trick Room, but then again, most of the sets I use with it are defensive, so it's usually Tbolt/Dpulse/Slack Off/Roar. I was almost going to say that "Cyclohm has no business with Trick Room because of Fidgit", but Fidgit doesn't last forever, so obviously, you're going to want more than one TR user on a TR team.

The way I see it, if a viable, threatening, and decently slow Pokemon has Trick Room, they can put it to good use. This can actually make TR teams more viable in general, as every OU that learns it now is either way too fast to take advantage of it or not sweeping material. Cyclohm is a neat combination of both, meaning it can be a real surprise that this guy is suddenly faster than everything and sweeping your team.

Just my two cents.
 
Okay, after much IRC deliberation, we have come to what we think is the final movepool. I have attached my spreadsheet including all of the details. Comment as you feel necessary.

Cheers.
 

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Aw man, you guys removed the Double Hit/Tri Attack flavor bit from Cyclohm's levelup movepool. That was one of the coolest tidbits from that movepool, IMO

The idea was that Cyclohm evolved by growing new heads. It got Double Hit at level 22 and Tri-Attack at level 33.

I realize flavor is not terribly important, but I thought this little hidden "easter egg" in Cyclohm's movepool was very clever. Only CAP diehards knew it was there. Try to preserve it if you can.
 
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