Tournament National Dex Alternate Metagames PL - Format Discussion

[Velcroc]

Welcome to the first edition of the National Dex Alternate Metagames Premier League! This tournament will replace the now-discontinued NDOTSL (National Dex Other Tiers Spotlight League) as the premier tour for NDAMs.

The formats for this year will most likely resemble the two previous NDOTSL tours, but we are seeing notable changes to the NDAM roster this year. Formats with minimal player bases like Convergence and Camomons have already been relegated from the circuit, and we could see formats like 35pokes and 1v1 being integrated into this tour.

This thread will be opened for 1-2 weeks for the community to discuss 1) what formats to include, and 2) the number of slots for each team. Remember that NDOTSL has historically had smaller player counts compared to larger tours within the Nat Dex forum. The formats currently up to consideration are all the metagames currently eligible for the National Dex Spotlight Ladder project, excluding last NDPL formats, which are:

Eligible Metagames

Gen 9 National Dex Monotype Ubers
Gen 9 National Dex Monotype (No Z-Moves)
Gen 9 National Dex Mix and Mega
Gen 9 National Dex NFE
Gen 9 National Dex LC
Gen 9 National Dex Balanced Hackmons
Gen 9 National Dex Doubles Ubers
Gen 9 National Dex Stabmons
Gen 9 National Dex 1v1
Gen 9 National Dex Ubers UU
Gen 9 National Dex AAA
Gen 9 National Dex Godly Gift
Gen 9 35 Pokes - [ Month / Year ]
Gen 8 National Dex AG - Bottom priority

For reference, here is the format list for last year's NDOTSL:

Spoiler

AAA
BH
STAB
GG
UUbers
NFE
LC
DUbers

Happy posting!

 

[Ember Celica]

Even though NDOSTL has historically enjoyed a smaller playerbase compared to other larger NatDex tours, I think that the success of the two newest NDAMs (1v1 and 35 Pokes) warrants expanding the tour to 10 slots per team. Doing so would allow the tour to integrate both 35 Pokes and 1v1 while keeping all of the formats from last year. Both of the new formats would be easily be able to provide the extra players needed to justify the extra slots compared to NDOTSLII.

Format List

Spoiler

AAA
BH
STAB
GG
UUbers
NFE
LC
DUbers
35 Pokes - [March/2024]
1v1

 

[veti]

last years format was good, would like this tour to have an identical format. If more slots are added they should be 1v1 and MnM, ndmono has ndmpl, ss ndag has ssndpl, 35pokes has 35pl while ND 1v1 and ND MnM are unrepresented in teamtours and circuit. Either mono > ss dlc2 ndag > 35pokes though.

editing my post to elaborate, 35pokes is the lowest here because it doesn't really function as a natdex tier, you play nd aaa because of the expanded dex from sv aaa, same with uubers, 1v1, stabmons, gg. 35pokes operates opposite to every other nd format, where its a restrictive meta instead of an additive meta and also is not an nd version of any sv format.

 

[TTK]

Last year's format works well, no need to add any mono format it has enough rep (the mono guy is saying this). If we do want to include tiers like 1v1, we can expand to 10 slots and I wouldn't mind 35 pokes being the 10th slot. Only issue is if a bad meta is chosen as representation but we would see how that goes. If not 35 Pokes, probably Mix and Mega.

 

[R8]

last years format was good, would like this tour to have an identical format. If more slots are added they should be 1v1 and MnM, ndmono has ndmpl, ss ndag has ssndpl, 35pokes has 35pl while ND 1v1 and ND MnM are unrepresented in teamtours and circuit. Either mono > ss dlc2 ndag > 35pokes though.

I believe this is a counterproductive reasoning, as if you wish give metagames more representation you should consider the fact that including formats like 35 Pokes would diversify the signups and help bridging different playerbases together. Teamtour representation isn't useful only because it contribute to the competitive scene of these metagames, but also because it encourages people to care about the tiers they don't play because helping your teammate to prep can be a competitive advantage, and getting along people playing other tiers in general can entice you to try those tiers - people trying out a tier just because someone they know plays it is a very classic tale

More specifically, i believe including 35 Pokes would be a huge win-win for both 35 Pokes and the rest of the NDAM community because 1. 35 Pokes has a big community, and connecting with them more is a big opportunity for ND AMs to get more visibility and 2. the 35 Pokes community otherwise has very little other opportunities to connect with other Smogon communities.

In my opinion one of the things that sucks the most about Smogon is how often different communities are kept separate (people that have been involved with NatDex for a while can tell you how much that sucked for us in the first place), despite the fact that we are essentially all playing variations of the same game, and not including 35 Pokes because it has its own PL would be repeating the same mistake.

This is not to say your argument is illegitimate: one of the reason why NDOTSL was created in the first place is to give some smallers tiers a teamtour environment that they would otherwise not get, so it makes sense to argue that it would be unfair that 35 Pokes - which has its own PL - takes a slot. However my point here is that missing what is arguably the best opportunity to integrate the 35 Pokes community in the general NatDex/NDAM community would also suck!!

I'm not really in tune with who plays ND 1v1 but if i'm going from the assumption that they are mostly 1v1 players i believe we could make a similar argument in favor of their inclusion too, if we think there would be enough singups in that tier. ND Mono already has integration in NatDex teamtours, and SS ND AG (although DLC1) is included in the current SSNDPL, which is more than what 35 Pokes gets in terms of integration imo as the 35 PL was not a "mixed" teamtour, so i don't think they should take priority over 35 Pokes.

editing my post to elaborate, 35pokes is the lowest here because it doesn't really function as a natdex tier, you play nd aaa because of the expanded dex from sv aaa, same with uubers, 1v1, stabmons, gg. 35pokes operates opposite to every other nd format, where its a restrictive meta instead of an additive meta and also is not an nd version of any sv format.

I think this is a very dangerous argument, and while i don't assume you have the same intent it feels a lot like "this is not a tier like our tiers" that keeps being brought up when NatDex formats themselves are discussed to be included in like any non-natdex teamtour/event ever. If it is a format that follows NatDex mechanics and that people enjoy playing and would signup for, why would it matter if it has significant differences with other NatDex formats? The point of NatDex formats is not to just have more Pokemon in my opinion: first and foremost, it is a different experience to play them compared to other tiers, and that's like the reason to play any Pokemon tier in existence.

Part of what made NatDex more and more popular in Gen8 was the dissatisfaction people had with Gen8 OU (especially during the first DLC), and we got a lot of new players during that time that didn't necessarily care about the dexit: they just were looking for a tier that would be more enjoyable to play for them. 35 Pokes would be extremely different (and probably a lot worse) if it was following current gen mechanics instead of NatDex's, so it is fudamentally part of its identity. I think the same could be said for other "restrictive" metas such as ND NFE and ND LC - yes they "restrict" you from the larger dex NatDex provides, but does that really matter?

If i may give a more subjective argument, i think the tier variety is one of the coolest things about NDOTSL in the first place. In what other smogon team tournament are you going to find Ubers UU, Balanced Hackmons, Little Cup and Doubles Ubers on the same lineup? NDOTSL makes for a super raw list of tiers, which gives it a very unique identity

 

[AM]

AAA
BH
STAB
GG
UUbers
NFE
LC
35pokes
Monotype (no -zmove)/Mix and Mega
1v1

From what I've seen of 35PL it was slots with various seasons of 35 metas, perhaps there could be a time frame of metas to use so there's more value in players who understand various 35pl seasons and have them change each week. Someone who's more familiar with 35poke could weigh in. I think 1v1 in general is fun so I'm including it here to.

Last year's format was fine, understandably these tours may have lower sign ups due to the nature of the metas involved so this format may not totally work. I'm going to second a 10 slot format. I think 10 is always a good number playerwise with maybe 2 subs but makes sense if signups dont make this feasible. I am going to be very bias in saying the ubers dubs slot just be straight axed for a singles slot like I suggested to add Mono or 1v1. Feels like the gulag slot with this batch where dubs player is by themselves without some sort of support and it felt like only a handful of people really get this format. Maybe it was just a not swell experience, seeing as NinjaSnapple was sort of alone here until like halfway and it seems like a recurring theme with random dub slots into single based tours.

Otherwise last years format is fine to stick with.

 

[Mentality]

While I'm not in a place to comment on the number of slots the tour should have, I do want to make a case for the inclusion of Natdex 1v1 given that the slots are expanded. For the sake of transparency, I will state that I'm a council member for ND1v1, so I am biased towards its inclusion.

Natdex 1v1 has a lot going for it currently, especially given how sporadic interest for it has been in the past, and how much more it has received in its latest iteration. The two unofficial tours including it hosted in the 1v1 subforum (ND Swiss and OM Trios) were very successful with a relatively high level of signups and interest. The 1v1 community is very passionate, and its OMs always see a good amount of success (read as: have been very fun) when included in tours. A Natdex AM teamtour is going to further fuel this fire, and allow for the tier to continue to have a healthy level of development and interest.

Further, it's in both communities' interest to include ND1v1. The rather sizable (largest of the UMs) population of 1v1 tends to keep to its own subforum and room, a relatively isolated spot in the wider Smogon community, as niches tend to be. However, inclusion in a teamtour for another subforum always draws us out of our caves to make the signup post and participate in the tour. Inviting crossover between traditionally isolated, and traditionally niche communities is healthy for both, as it brings people to parts of Smogon they usually wouldn't interact with.

 

[Ember Celica]

From what I've seen of 35PL it was slots with various seasons of 35 metas, perhaps there could be a time frame of metas to use so there's more value in players who understand various 35pl seasons and have them change each week. Someone who's more familiar with 35poke could weigh in.

The 35 PL featured various past monthly 35 Pokes formats, and those stayed the same throughout the entire tournament. Myself and the other 35 Pokes leaders had discussed which single past format may be best to represent our tier if included in NDAMPL, but the prospect of doing something to value players who understand various 35 Pokes formats is very intriguing. Personally, I still lean towards representing 35 Pokes via a single format because that seems like it would be easier for both managers and players, but I would be very interested to see what the hosts' opinion on the matter is in this hypothetical scenario. Regardless of how 35 Pokes is included, I believe that it is most important that 35 Pokes is included to begin with.

Part of what made NatDex more and more popular in Gen8 was the dissatisfaction people had with Gen8 OU (especially during the first DLC), and we got a lot of new players during that time that didn't necessarily care about the dexit: they just were looking for a tier that would be more enjoyable to play for them. 35 Pokes would be extremely different (and probably a lot worse) if it was following current gen mechanics instead of NatDex's, so it is fudamentally part of its identity.

I cannot reiterate enough how true this is for 35 Pokes in particular. A large part of the success of 35 Pokes and peoples' continued enjoyment of it is that we are a NatDex format, and I doubt many could imagine playing this tier as a current gen format. It is part of the community's identity as well, which is why I'd like to echo the sentiment that it is in both communities' (35 Pokes and NDAMs) best interest to include 35 Pokes. NDAMs has a variety of very interesting formats, multiple of which I know that specific parts of the 35 Pokes community already enjoy playing when the opportunity arises. Including 35 Pokes in NDAMPL would provide both excellent reason and opportunity for the community at large to do so, which would mean increased visibility and activity for the other AMs.

More specifically, i believe including 35 Pokes would be a huge win-win for both 35 Pokes and the rest of the NDAM community because 1. 35 Pokes has a big community, and connecting with them more is a big opportunity for ND AMs to get more visibility and 2. the 35 Pokes community otherwise has very little other opportunities to connect with other Smogon communities.

To expand on the second point, the disconnect engendered partially by the lack of opportunities for 35 Pokes to connect with other Smogon communities has become simultaneously more evident and less desirable as of late. Each event held on the forums has brought new people to the community alongside their unique perspectives on the tier, and it is widely recognized that we are better off for it. However, the subset of new people who join via the forums, and therefore lessen the disconnect between 35 Pokes and other Smogon communities, has mostly been limited to those who actively seek out ways to play 35 Pokes or are personally invited by somebody they know who is already in the community. As a result, the disconnect shrinks far less than it would if 35 were to enjoy connections with a more diverse array of Smogon communities and players. Inclusion in NDAMPL would accomplish this in droves.

 

[zastra]

For reference, here is the format list for last year's NDOTSL:
AAA
BH
STAB
GG
UUbers
NFE
LC
DUbers

This + 35 Pokes + 1v1

10 slots seems a little excessive but let's see

 

[bumboclaat]

I don't really have anything to say that R8 didn't. I meant to post a couple of days ago, but I've been super busy irl. I think ideally you include every tier that has a playerbase capable of supporting a decent pool. Given how many NDAM players seem to play multiple tiers that should make things easier compared to other ND tours. I doubt I'll be signing up for this tour, but seeing doubles Ubers would be cool personally out of the tiers that have not been mentioned. Realistically, it seems like 10 slots with 1v1 + 35 Pokes is the most popular. The 35 Pokes peeps can speak to this, but is Bo3 reasonable? It lets you play more metas and well with 35 Pokes that might not be the typical prep/time burden that comes with Bo3? Having the 35 Pokes slot change every week (or 2 if there are months that are far and away the most popular) is a great idea as well.

Ideal slots (12 definitely is not happening)

Gen 9 National Dex Monotype Ubers
Gen 9 National Dex Mix and Mega
Gen 9 National Dex NFE
Gen 9 National Dex LC
Gen 9 National Dex Balanced Hackmons
Gen 9 National Dex Doubles Ubers
Gen 9 National Dex Stabmons
Gen 9 National Dex 1v1
Gen 9 National Dex Ubers UU
Gen 9 National Dex AAA
Gen 9 National Dex Godly Gift
Gen 9 35 Pokes - [ Bo3 ]

 

[Velcroc]

Just adding a few thoughts here now that I've gotten some personal business out of hand. I advocate for a 10-man format with the additions of 35pokes and 1v1.

I would prefer having a 10-man format if possible since it allows for greater representation, however, there is a pragmatic argument for maintaining 8 slots that we know we can fill. With that being said, I am familiar with the 35pokes community since I have been around for some time now. I think adding 35pokes would be beneficial for the tour from the accounting pov since a lot of them do flock to tours like these. An unintended side-effect may be that a lot of 35pokes players will either not be picked or will be pigeon-holed into tiers that they are less familiar with. While this is a risk, I don't think it will be a particularly a major one since I know several 35 players either have solid fundamentals, an interest in at least one of the tiers here, or a combination of both. 35PL also saw some draft mains and tournament journeymen join the fray, but the tour did have MVP cash prizes so I will hold out on making a prediction here.

Adding 1v1 here is a leap of faith. 1v1 is a comparatively new commodity and a lot of the metagame development took place on discord so it's trickier to document. However, I have a positive outlook on the communities growth based on the data from the open. I will also echo Mentality's point about the benefits of collaboration between the two communities.

The other potential formats have benefits for being included, but there are a few drawbacks. Gen 8 AG (pre-DLC2) is a past-gen and the attention given to the format is much smaller compared to either 1v1 or 35pokes. MnM has coding issues and lacks resources compared to most of the other formats here. Monotype Ubers could be an interesting option if we need to replace Doubles Ubers for whatever reason, but I do prefer Doubles Ubers in terms of both player count and balance. Z-less Monotype is another option over Doubles Ubers, but one that I'm not a fan of personally.

I have added a poll for people to gauge people's opinions on what formats they would like to see. This won't be a 1:1 affair where the highest 8 or 10 formats get in, but it will provide a quantitative metric to help make a more informed decision (and gives us a snapshot into player sign-up counts).