Doubles National Dex Doubles OU - Metagame Discussion - Shadow Tag Banned!

[Smudge]

Been a while since I posted in here, so here's a couple of my responses and my reasonings:

Enjoyment, balance: 7.0 / 7.0

The meta is in a good but a little weird spot right now - Derby and NDWC had a lot of great games with tons of varied team styles, but Flutter Mane is very dominant, and I don't really enjoy that in the builder or in-game. I think we're at a particularly important crossroads of what the next tiering steps will be.

How do you feel about Urshifu Rapid-Strike? (Water) - Urshifu Rapid-Strike might be banworthy and it should be suspect tested.

I think it's possible Urshifu-R was banned out of order/prematurely. When it was (quickbanned) we had things like Zygarde, Mega Metagross and Zamazenta in the tier. Each of these punished different mons that would otherwise be solid counterplay to Urshifu-R, such as Raging Bolt, Tapu Fini, and Rillaboom. These mons still had a presence in the tier of course, but it seems possible to me that it'd be ok in combination with other trends we're experiencing i.e. high MMence/Rilla/Fini usage, and so on. If it got tested and still didn't get freed, I'd be ok with that.

I also don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that broken checks broken, but I think there's a discussion to be had on whether to test either/both of the Urshifus before we test Flutter. Urshifu's existence in the tier might create a knock-on effect of Flutter sacrificing Choice Specs to get ahead of Scarf Urshifus by using Booster Energy, reducing even further the offensive output of Flutter.

How do you feel about Urshifu Single-Strike? (Dark) - Urshifu Single-Strike might be banworthy and it should be suspect tested.

I've pretty much always held the opinion that Dark is generally worse than Water, obviously it's composition dependent on which one you might want to use but I think the idea that you can just rip "+1 From Gouging Fire + Choice Band/BlackGlasses + Tera Dark + Sword Of Ruin Wicked Blow" into everything in the tier is oversold. Previously, I was of the opinion "well you can't switch into its coverage" but I think that is not really true in the current iteration of the tier as it was when Melmetal, Commander, Genesect and Annihilape got cycled through the tier in a 30 day period. Not to mention the things that stayed legal and were banned later as mentioned above. Mence being faster, locking into cc/drain makes you Iron Hands food, Fini eating it for breakfast, and so on. It's also true that many other Pokemon exist in the tier that have strong attacks which are hard to switch into such as Mence DEdge, Lando-I EP/Sludge, Marsh CC/Spectral, the list goes on.

Flutter Mane - 4/5. It's somewhere between a 3 and 4 for me, but I rounded up.

It's evident that Flutter is the (mostly) uncontested best Pokemon in the tier - according to the VR, anyways. At minimum, it requires the most respect in the builder, meaning sturdy fairy checks that disincentivise clicking Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam/Moonblast. Unfortunately, there's not that many good options outside of like Jirachi/Heatran/Ferro/AV Gambit/Celesteela, some with pretty glaring issues. I think Flutter makes building this tier pretty unpleasant for me, I don't like using it and I don't like playing against it. Call it a skill issue if you want, but it's been a strain on my enjoyment of the tier for quite a while. If I were to vote today, I'd vote ban. I do think the tier is playable if it doesn't get banned though, but teambuilding will remain strained.

Jirachi - 4/5.

I kind of hate this Pokemon. It's easily the best support in the tier - completely non-interactive, with diabolical bulk and the ability to tera into the perfect redirector that can cover a significant portion of the team's bases in one slot. It sort of counters Flutter but doesn't entirely check it, and it feels like a lot of the common structures and high usage Pokemon in the tier have a some amount of trouble with it. I don't think it will ever get suspected, but I'd be very happy if we had never freed it in the first place.

 

[Glimmer]

Hi everyone! Been a while since i did one of these, huh? Since my NDPL run is over, I'd like to give some overall thoughts on the meta and the teambuilding side of things as that is where i spend most of my time. SO


First topic to touch upon, most heated discussion topic of the entire metagame, the force that expanded in the metagame. Horrible pun but I just had to. Anyways we gotta get rid of this guy ASAP. Is it the most broken thing in the metagame? Why yes. Is it an asshole to prep against? Absolutely. I hate rilla jail. Is it horrendous to interact with? Possibly the worst part of Deoxys-Attack. Your team is either extremely well equipped and completely curb stomps Deo before it even leaves a slight dent in your team, or it is the single most boardstate warping Pokemon in the game. Even resists on the slightly bulky side hate Expanding Force, you gotta be a Dark-type or it is gonna sting. Not to even mention the sheer calcs stuff like Tera Psychic, Helping Hand, and Beads of Ruin make this guy achieve. It was a mistake to be able to have a priority immune Deoxys-Attack that also has one of the strongest spread moves available as STAB. Horrible horrible mon. Gotta make an 8th level of hell to burn this guy, maybe that will OHKO it through Sash eh?


I still firmly believe that this mon had to go. It has singlehandedly placed the metagame into a chokehold since the conception of the tier and currently, since it is the only truly broken splashable Pokemon left, it has completely halted all metagame development. Not only is it the best Pokemon in the entire metagame, it also anchors the single most dominant archetype in Sun, and with all of that presence combined it feels like Flutter is in complete control of viability in this tier. It restricts the wide dex that the national dex attribute of the metagame provides. Makes the top of the metagame revolve mostly around it, and a lot of mons that would be maximum C+ in a less top heavy metagame end up shifting up to B/B+ just because of their good matchup into Flutter and Sun. I don't understand the will to not remove the primary force in the stagnating of ND Doubles, the banning of this mon would make it feel so fresh and open up so many more fun ideas other then just Sun and the Sun Checks over and over again and again.


The other best mon in the tier. Really annoying, but something I can get behind unlike Flutter. Its enabling of certain setup definitely seems like a problem in a vacuum, but the real limiting factor for Jirachi is that its partners tend to die before it in this tier due to the sheer numbers the spread attackers put out and how common they are. And the ones that don't die tend to be the less broken ones, like Tapu Fini. This combined with the fact that Jirachi by itself really isn't that threatening makes it not that broken in the current circumstances of the meta. Now with the things I have said thus far Jirachi sounds horrible, so let's also talk about the positives hm? Jirachi is by far the best redirector and it is not even close. Its typing of Steel combines so well with so many setup sweepers, particularly Dragon-types like Mega Mence and Kyurem Black, and also Tapu Fini. It is also just a great distraction due to the miriad of resists Steel brings to the table, with Fairy resist being particularly helpful and hard to come across with such bulk present. And yk. Tap the sign. Flutter meta. On top of all of this it gets some really useful utility tools too, like Encore, Stealth Rock, Life Dew, Helping Hand. Very good mon.


Can he even exist outside of the top 10 anymore? Is it ever possible? Incineroar is just so consistent and useful it has stopped being funny. Fake Out + pivoting is valuable as ever, Incineroar is king of utility. It fits in so many teams due to how valuable its role is. Even with Clear Amulet and Covert Cloak's existence, this has only slowed down Incineroar slightly, due to its ability to just Knock Off whatever item is bugging it. Its typing is also very helpful into PsySpam and Sun, which are the two most annoying archetypes to build and face off against. Not really much else to note. It is still Incineroar. It will keep on being Incineroar.


I will talk about these two at the same time, as they are not that deep but they are the core of this metagame. 7 out of 10 teams you see in this tier have one of these two, for a very important reason too. They are the main part of the two most splashable archetypes in NatDex Doubles, Tailwind Offense and Sun. Mega Salamence has incredible offensive presence without much effort, due to Aerilate giving it consistent and strong Flying-type STAB. Dragon Dance + Roost is also very good, it even has Intimidate pre-mega to boot. Mega Charizard Y's Drought enables some of the most broken Pokemon to become even more threatening, mainly Flutter Mane. It is also great on its own, with a great attacking stat it scorchs enemies with Heat Wave and Overheat, it even gets Scorching Sands as coverage against Heatran and Nihilego through NatDex.


This pokemon is almost thanos. It is such great role compression due to its bulk and typing and it does every job it takes upon exceptionally, with Calm Mind sets being the main shining star. With so much support being available to it in the form of Intimidates, Fake Outs, and redirections being so common. Tera also makes it remove any weakness in a pinch, even giving it new resistances to strong attackers. Choice sets are also very common, offering immediate pressure while still being a pain to remove from the board. Choice Specs sets do respectable damage to would be soft checks and Choice Scarf gets over things Fini would like to hit like Mega Mence, Marshadow, Lando-I, and Chien-Pao. Support sets are much nicher but they are very good glues with a lot of good options to hold together offense teams particularly well. The only reason Fini is limitted in this meta is that it is not sufficient terrain control against PsySpam, which is crucial in the Deo-A matchup fish world we exist in. So it has to be paired with a lot of anti-PsySpam like Jirachi and Incineroar or have to carry around Rillaboom everywhere, which knocks down its viability slightly.


The guy that i despise. Unfortunately it is very good. Grass is a cool typing, having a good matchup into Landorus' and Tapu Fini and even being able to live Dracovish's Fishious Rend most of the time. Fake Out is great utility. Wood Hammer stings. U-turn lets it be effective terrain control against Fini, Koko, and Indeedee. Glide still stings enough to be able to clean up weakened targets and damage faster things, particularly Flutter Mane and Chien-Pao. High Horsepower is decent tech into would be hard losing matchups like Heatran and Jirachi. Just a solid mon that hasn't stagnated much.


Perhaps the biggest shift of the past year. Heatran has risen through the ranks drastically since the ban of Zygarde and Stakataka. The need for a Sun check has been ever so apparent, and the metagame force of Zygarde completely shutting down any attempts of running Heatran is gone. Fire/Steel also lets it quadra resist Fairy, which means it is the only pokemon in the meta that can completely stomach Moonblasts without any fear of chip. It has also proven very useful offensively through Eruption sets, being very deadly into most pokemon. Substitute sets also annoy Offense and Trick Room structures a lot, giving Heatran so much more time to be threatening. Assault Vest and Scarf sets are also decent.


This guy is quite comparable to Fini in a lot of ways, as they tend to go hand in hand in teams anyways. But for completely different reasons. Iron Hands has enormous bulk and a unique typing that makes it useful in a lot of ways. Assault Vest sets are really really good, not folding to some of the strongest attackers' super effective STABs while dishing out good damage and having good utility in Fake Out. Swords Dance sets are also quite good, being able to use a miriad of items to patch up weaknesses and be a genuine threat. It's main similarity with Fini is that it has a major limiting factor in not being one of the most used mons in the entire meta. That being, to the surprise of no one, Flutter Mane. Flutter is so so good into Iron Hands, even though Assault Vest sets can supposedly trade with it if it is a bulky variation using Heavy Slam, even forcing Hands to run that and still mauling through its HP makes it enough to knock down Iron Hands a couple placements.


GENIES!!! I will mostly be talking about them together as they are seen together so much. Tornadus greatly benefits from NatDex, as it is the primary Z-Move abuser of the meta. Z-Flying from Bleakwind Storm gives Tornadus a much needed sudden power spike that can make it take out threats like Mega Mence and Lando-I immediately and still dent more defensive switch-ins like Tapu Fini and Incineroar. And it still has all its tools from SV, Prankster Tailwind is broken, Sunny Day and Rain Dance give really valuable weather control in such a weather dominant meta. Landorus-I is just an incredibly solid attacker, very strong with not much opportunity cost. Even got Sandsear Storm in SV. Combines very well with other attackers too, mainly Flutter Mane but also nicher things like Nihilego and Kyurem-Black. Landorus-T is very very cool for different reasons. Gaining Stomping Tantrum in SV, it finally has a consistent single target move. It also brings a lot of good utility onto the table through Intimidate + U-turn. It's attacking stat of a whopping 145 combined with all these traits make it a great all-rounder fitting into a lot of different teams. Offensive teams appreciate Scarf Lando-T to bring a bit of sturdiness and still be really strong while also creating a bunch of tempo when necessary. Assault Vest sets have been particularly good, doing well generally into Sun and Double Genie teams due to its bulk and Rock Slide. Rocks sets are also pretty neato.


Sword of Ruin is busted. Chien-Pao has Sword of Ruin. It also hits hard enough to be threatening. By itself it is countered by a good bit of the meta, Incineroar, Tapu Fini, Jirachi if it isn't running Throat Chop, Heatran, Iron Hands, Diancie. But being able to boost a teammate so freely and so much by merely switching in is very valuable. Particularly useful next to Marshadow, Rillaboom, Landorus-T, and Ogerpon formes. By itself it also does decent damage and can opt to run utility moves like Icy Wind and Ruination so it isn't as worthless into its checks.


SEVERELY underrated. I have not brought this mon due to only being able to play until my team was out, but this would've been the main mon I would abuse if I were going for wins still. Not only is it jaw-droppingly powerful under Sun with other amplifiers such as Tera and Life Orb, it is also so immensely bulky and nice to have around. It is basically a trading bot. Very few mons and very few circumstances come where Raging Bolt doesn't get value. Assault Vest sets bolster such immense bulk with power and utility to boot, firing off Thunderbolts and Draco Meteors while also weakening the opposing team with Electroweb and Snarl. Attacker sets are also very very solid, with the fact that the only real consistent switch-ins are Assault Vest Landorus-Therian and Ferrothorn. Guy is good. Do try using it for your games more often.


Idk why we do not use this guy more often, Water + Ghost is nigh unwallable even without considering higher Base Powers of Last Respects. It also has pretty good defensive utility too and is pretty damn strong on its own right. Singlehandedly carries rain and should be used on other archetypes more often as well. And with higher and higher Last Respects base powers it becomes a complete slaughter machine. Simple concept but an effective one at that.


Okay, okay, hear me out on this one. Loaded Dice AOA Kyurem-Black might be genuine. I KNOW Clear Amulet blocking Incineroar's Intimidate is great and all, but consider this, with Tera and Loaded Dice Kyurem-Black has 3 consistent STAB options off of its monstrous 170 attack stat and still can boost its own speed through Scale Shot. I have not tested it enough to be confident enough in it to be fair, but I am fairly certain this is a pretty damn good set.

Now, that's the metagame post over, but I have one more suggestion to go through. I think we should adopt the Letter Based Viability Rankings. Though it is more of a flavor choice, I think our meta is nuanced and due to the sheer number of mons that nuance can be lost in the sauce when simplified into only 5 tiers, especially since 1 and 2 are very exclusive to only the most meta mons. It leads to silly scenarios where lesser mons are ranked the same as actually meta mons that are used in tournament play. This can still be done with only 5 tiers, but it would require getting rid of a good bit of mons from the tier list, even ones with genuine niches. To solve this conundrum we should definitely consider switching to a letter based system, as it not only has way more tiers through letters, it will also mean we can reasonably do subtiers, all of which combined would mean a more nuanced and information packed viability ranking.

That's all folks, hope you enjoyed!