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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Gen 9 National Dex Doubles is one of, if not the most permissive Doubles format to ever exist on Smogon, featuring every single Pokemon*, and without many clauses.
Bring 6 Pokemon, Doubles. Players can use only and all Pokemon obtainable in the National Dex.
Endless Battle Clause: Anything capable of intentionally creating an endless battle is banned.
Evasion Moves Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, or Fissure.
Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.
Pokemon Bans:
Shedinja
Move bans:
Assist
Sample Teams:
Ice Rider "The Brokens" Tailroom by zee -
Ice Rider Fairceus Semiroom by Schister -
Zygarde Double Ground Setup by Schister -
EKiller HO by Glimmer -
EKiller Semiroom by Schister -
Z CSR Whimsi HO by LogIce -
Xerneas Screens by Schister -
Iron Def Zama Xerneas HO by Glimmer -
Swordfish HO by LogIce -
VR Council:
These users have the ultimate say on shifts in Viability Rankings tiers. The council consists of experienced players who have different styles and perspectives to offer to the table when deciding the strength of any individual Pokemon.
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.
This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.
Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.
Noticed that there aren't that many poison types in this meta, so I figured that Toxic Spikes would be broken as fuck. Won't really get into the intricacies of this team since I'm not really a doubles player, I just wanted to see if Toxic Spikes would work here.
Also made this but its hella cheesy, I wouldn't load this in a serious game.
And then here are some skeletons I made but I didn't really bother to go further with them:
Hella early thoughts: Dumb Mid Fun Matchup fish Not mandatory imo, but Normal, Ghost, Dark, are hella good. Dumb if Trick Room is optimized Hella valuable role compressor Also mid Dumb but balanced
A few teams from me mostly compiled from friendlies.
RayOgre + Arc-Ghost
Pretty early on in the meta i realized that EKiller and Primal Groudon and Specs Miraidon were gonna be a pain in the ass, so I cooked up this team which counters most if not all of the annoying brokens available. All around good mon, doesnt have many bad matchups and the bad matchups are not hard at all to patch. This patches up the bulky EKiller and IDPress Zama-C matchups while also being an incredible stop gap and utility tool into every pokemon that isn't opposing Yveltal, Calyrex-S, or Arceus-Dark. Dumbass mon honestly, Scarf lets it always win the tie into Miraidon and also get the momentum with Volt Switch into other potential scarfers and Calyrex-Shadow. Tera Electric is of question but I honestly haven't really felt the need to Tera with this team. Steel/Fairy defensively and offensively are incredible. It threatens non-scarf Miraidon, Xerneas, EKiller, Yveltal, Arceus-Dark, Calyrex-Ice, and also Mega Rayquaza. I went with Tera Fighting here but have played with Tera Fairy, Tera Ground with Tera Blast, and even Tera Grass with Trailblaze. Pretty flexible and really good mon, especially for clean-up sake. Onto the main core. Mega Rayquaza is the most reliable breaker in the tier and pushes Tier 1 for me as of right now, Delta Stream is also great to alleviate the Water-immunity Primal Groudon has which is the main annoyance for Primal Kyogre. Mon needs Tailwind but boy is it broken if it gets Tailwind. If the opponent doesn't load Primal Groudon this is like, the best mon in the metagame, but if PDon is loaded, Mega Rayquaza is there to help.
Dual Tailwind HO
This is mainly banking on the fact that speed advantage equals a lot of kills please don't use Calyrex-Ice I beg you
This mon is a real tera hog but god damn does it deal some damage. I'd advise heavily in trying out Tera Fairy too on other structures, I am just a bit paranoid about Zacian-C on this team. Second best Arc forme, after EKiller. Foul Play and Dark-type are very annoying for a multitude of pokemon and Wisp is just the best way to shut down some of the more annoying threats. This is my niche pick of the team, the slow Fake Out + pivot is great and it completely dunks on EKiller, some Arceus-Dark variants, Miraidon, and most importantly Yveltal. It also just has great bulk and Fake Out is rare in DUbers metas in general. Probably the most consistent Tailwind setter due to Shadow Shield, also has Wide Guard to counter a lot of the annoying mons such as both the Calyrex formes, both of the Primals, and even Zyg-C Thousand Arrows. Ghost is also a great typing that matches up super well into the meta and Moongeist Beam destroys Shedinja. Sash is a moreso HO-centric set on Mega Rayquaza but is still deadly as a clean up tool or as a wallbreaker with the combination of Swords Dance and Extreme Speed. Mixed Primal Groudon seemed like a really great idea in builder but honestly I might have to rethink its set, Eruption is a bit volatile as it is either really strong or you get chipped down immediately, am thinking of running Overheat though.
This thread looks a little bit dead, so here's two teams that I've made that are probably bad use some mons I've been a bit interested in:
Terapagos Offense
Terapagos looks pretty cool. It's a good Calyrex-S and Mega Gengar switch-in, has a lot of bulk upon Terastalizing, and has an extremely spammable spread move in Tera Starstorm. Arceus-Ghost assists it with Tailwind, is able to come into Pokemon like Zamazenta-C for Terapagos, and can hit Ghost-types for Terapagos pre-Tera with Judgment. Miraidon is the main form of speed control outside of Tailwind and is a really solid pivot for the team, while denting Yveltal for Arceus-Ghost (and Terapagos in case AV Knock Off Yveltal becomes annoying). Mega Rayquaza gives a reliable form of priority and is the main physical threat of the team, setting up with Swords Dance to dent defensive cores alongside Terapagos. Clefairy is funny and I needed a support mon, as well as a Pokemon that could switch into Miraidon's Draco Meteor; Friend Guard + Follow Me helps Mega Rayquaza setup even if Clefairy isn't the bulkiest, while After You helps this team's matchup into Trick Room, letting Yveltal or Terapagos get a hit off before Calyrex-I can, potentially killing it. Lastly, Yveltal is a bulky attacker here to help against potential PsySpam threats, while overall just being a good damage sponge.
Mega Gengar Offense
Mega Gengar can be scary with Shadow Tag to put the opponent into an awkward position with good planning, while also threatening out Pokemon like Xerneas thanks to its good offensive profile. Arceus is able to come into opposing Mega Gengar and Calyrex-S for Mega Gengar, has Tailwind support for the team and Extreme Speed priority to clean up foes. Zamazenta-C is a great support, having Wide Guard to block Astral Barrage or Precipice Blades so Mega Gengar can remove the former attacker, while also pressuring out Dark-types like Yveltal or Arceus-Dark with Body Press. Landorus-T is a niche pick, but it's able to come into Primal Groudon, Zacian-C and Mega Rayquaza for the team, offers hazard support (which could be useful for the team) and pivot support, while being able to nuke threats with Groundium Z Earthquake. Primal Kyogre appreciates this pressure on Primal Groudon a lot, and so does Xerneas, while the two form a very potent offensive core together, the latter helping Mega Gengar with it's Dark-type weakness.
Here are some teams I made for a tournament among friends.
Here's a team I really like because it can break through very easily at the start of the game. Yveltal with Z-Dark can quickly take out things thanks to its great power, in addition to helping us with Tailwind. Lunala is another attacker and speed control with Trick Room, which can be useful if we need to be slow with Groudon and also gives Mawile the chance to move before everything. If Mawile manages to use Swords Dance, it can kill or leave many Pokémon with very little HP with Play Rough and Sucker Punch.
I think it's not clear enough how much I like Lunala. This team is focused on disrupting as much as possible with Whimsicott, either using Tailwind or Encore. Miraidon is a very powerful Pokémon that can take out many opponents with Electro Drift. Incineroar can help us generate momentum and allow us to boost with Rayquaza, which will be a beast at +2. Essentially, the team revolves around attacking, attacking, and boosting.
Hello again Groudon,
This is a special attack Groudon set. Eruption can deal overwhelming damage in the sun, surpassing many threats thanks to Tailwind. Additionally, Tornadus with its Z-Move can help defeat opposing Kyogre, bringing them into Earth Power range. Taunt is useful against Trick Room teams as well. Mega Gengar can assist with matchups where we need to eliminate a threat quickly from the start or mid-game due to its ability. The Xerneas and Iron Hands core is amazing as they cover each other well, with Iron Hands providing Fake Out to help Xerneas boost more easily. For extra speed control, Stakataka can be very useful, and it also helps us survive moves like Precipice Blades and Origin Pulse with Wide Guard.
The only way for this format to get a ladder is for it to be selected in the voting stage for the NatDex Spotlight ladders. If you want it to be a ladder you can vote for it.
We're about halfway done with the NDOM league that ND Dubers has been featured in. This has definitely been one of my more favorite niche doubles metas that I've gotten to play so far, so I thought I'd write a little bit about my impressions so far and maybe help bring some more people into the tier. I don't know where else tournaments for this tier can fit in if it becomes more popular, and maybe that's a good thing, but I digress.
The first thing I'd like to post is a rough VR. I didn't consult anyone for this so it's entirely my personal rankings, take that for what you will.
Again, that's where I'm at with the current progress in this tournament, but I'd be happy to re-evaluate after the tour concludes if enough things develop (maybe all the tour players can vote collectively so we have it as a resource?)
Let's talk about the Pokemon themselves for a bit. Not gonna comment on each and every one but will blab about a few.
The guy. Miraidon is the best Pokemon in the tier. I'm pretty sure all of the ones used in tournament so far have been some combination of Choice Specs and Choice Scarf with Tera Electric or Fairy and I generally think that's fine. Miraidon can come in and threaten Volt Switch on any non-Ground type slower than it, pivot to a friend, and come back in and do it later. Or, it can just kill something. Both of its Tera types greatly improve the defensive profile and its natural bulk is already solid, so it kills things easily while being pretty difficult to kill itself. I do think it's held back by a few things - you can definitely choose to contest its terrain if you want, and something like a Tera Ground Arceus Fairy or Specially Defensive Primal Groudon can make it pretty annoyed. But overall, the most immediately threatening Pokemon in the tier.
The goat is back. Precipice Blades is crazy. Grass and especially Bug-types are virtually nonexistent in the meta which means your only real resists are Flying-types and Wide Guard. And with how good Miraidon and Ice Rider are, you're probably not running more than one Flying per team. Very few things can effectively remove it and the defensive profile allows it to stand up to the dogs, ekiller, and virtually anything in the lower tiers. You can run utility moves like Stealth Rock and Roar in slot 3 or get fancy with moves like Eruption, Overheat, or Swords Dance.
Arceus-Fairy rounds out what I would consider the tier 1s. The simplest thing it does is CM Recover with the perfect coverage of Fairy Judgement +Earth Power, and the latter's output can be amplified by Tera Ground. Honestly in terms of setup Pokemon, this outclasses even ekiller Arceus as it's so difficult to take down and the damage output before boosting is still pretty respectable. Doesn't need a ton of setup support but any that you can give it will go a long way.
Just really nice to have an actual Dark type in the tier. It's not the only thing keeping CSR at bay by any means but he certainly helps. Also just generally has a strong matchup into the Pokemon that can't hit it for SE as its massive bulk and access to annoying moves like Snarl and Oblivion Wing will only make it harder to kill. I think Assault Vest, Z-Move w/ Tailwind, and even Scarf are strong sets. Blackglasses can work if you wanna have Tailwind and be able to Tera.
He's the utility guy. Between Coaching / Wide Guard / Snarl, Zamazenta adds stability to any team. It also boasts a pretty decent speed tier for the metagame, hitting above max speed Arceus if you desire to be that fast. Offensively Steel + Fighting stabs are pretty good too!
A lot of people I've talked to seem to be a bit higher on Mega Rayquaza than I am, but I just don't think it's particularly strong or hard to respect? Dragon/Flying with no possibility to tera in the tier 1 ArcFairy and Miraidon meta is pretty rough, and Sash sets have to limit themselves to either Dragon Ascent + Extremespeed or those + a 3rd attack and no boosting option. Still, it does hit crazy hard and it's not like 115 is an awful speed tier. I'm lumping Kyogre in with Rayquaza because I find it pretty difficult to run without Air Lock/Delta Stream to get around Primordial Sun. There are a lot of pivoting options available in this meta to lock out any Kyogre without it. There aren't a lot of Water resists in the tier though, so something like Rayogre Tailwind HO is probably decently strong.
These are the other 3 megas I think you could use in the tier, and I rated them 3/4/5 respectively. Trapping is deadly in any format, but trapping in a tier with the power level this high might just find you in a spot to take a game winning kill right off the bat. Also basically the only offensive Poison in the tier unless people start running Arceus Poison or something. Did you guys know this thing gets Encore now? :)
Kangaskhan is basically the same as it is in ND DOU, it clicks Fake Out + Seismic Toss then two slots to tailor to team needs. I think Kang's really only particularly strong on setup comps, particularly Xerneas or Ekiller, as otherwise I think the cost of it being on the field is too high. But on those it can create space with (potentially Scrappy) Fake Out and put things in KO range with a Seismic Toss, so I think it does that role pretty well.
I'm not really sure if Mence has the sauce or not, basically anything I ranked in tier 5 is "I haven't seen this but I imagine it's probably fine on the right comp". It has a pretty good Groudon matchup and Tailwind + Intimidate, next...
All the support guys I ranked tier 3 or tier 4. Sableye and Grimmsnarl both get screens and fake out if you want em, while the rest of Sableye's kit features Encore, Disable, Will-O-Wisp, Quash, and Ally Switch, as opposed to Grimmsnarl's Scary Face, Fake Tears, Parting Shot, and Thunder Wave. I'd mention Trick too but in effectively half of most teams are gonna run items that can't be Tricked so I don't think it's worth.
Rillaboom and Incineroar are the pivots, they're just doing what they always do. Rillaboom fares a bit better in my book as it's actually a Precipice Blades switchin, cancels out Electric Terrain, and just hits reasonably hard with Wood Hammer. To be quite honest I'm not really sure why you'd use Incineroar in this tier over any of the other 3 options but I'm being conservative and starting it in tier 4. I'm not even sure if it's been used in NDOML yet at the time of this post tbh...
Final mention goes to the ruin guys, who I'm also pretty sure I haven't seen yet, but their multipliers make me think they might have some potential. Chien-Pao has a solid speed tier for the format and gets to click Ice Spinner and Chi-Yu can run Scarf next to Specs Miraidon and be pretty scary.
That's all I wanna talk about for now, after the tour ends I'll dump my teams and maybe talk about more metagame trends or analyze some cool games.
After receiving feedback from many different players and seeing the general opinions expressed in both the ND DOU & Smogon Doubles Discord over the past month, the ND Doubles council has decided to ban Shedinja from this format.
This isn't necessarily going to open the format to further tiering action - Shedinja with Terastallization is more of an arbitrary checkbox to fill in teambuilding this format, requiring status moves that you may not otherwise need to use on your team/in the format which increases teambuilding strain, rather than a legitmate DUbers level threat, similar to the already existing Assist ban.
This is also in consideration with the fact that this format is receiving a ladder for the month of September, as part of the National Dex Other Tiers Spotlight project, to keep the ladder as healthy and engaging as possible for its duration.
This replay shows my first game on the ladder. I don't have any experience with the team, or the meta, and I forgot to put in tera types. tyo perfectly positions around my offense team that aims to remove primal groudon and let xerneas do it's thing, keeping it at virtually 100% the entire game, besides a single piece of fake out chip.
and then my xern 2hko's it anyway
I don't know enough about the tier to say anything, but I'd like to see the deer on the radar for a potential ban in future.
My current thoughts on the metagame at large, with some funny mons I've seen at the very bottom. Early impressions is that there is a good demand for sturdy steel types as fairceus and xerneas are incredible metagame threats bolstered by pdon's presence.
In case it is hard to tell, the arceus on this list (in order) are Fairy, Normal, Ground, Ghost, Dark, Grass, Poison, Fire, Steel, Water. I'll go through each of them quickly.
Arceus fairy is an immense threat in the metagame whose access to reliable recovery, fantastic bulk, and broken access to Fairy STAB + ground coverage allows it to hit absolutely everything and sit on absolutely anything with good evs.
Arceus-Normal is iconic in its use of E-Killer sets but also offers a valuable neutral typing into almost all of the metagame and an incredible immunity to Ghost that lets it sit in front of Shadow rider and click utility options if one so wishes
Arceus-Ground is one of the best checks to primal groudon in the tier imo, easily outspeeding it and hitting it with a non-wide guardable super-effective hit. 252+ SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Groudon-Primal: 404-476 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also has a great typing into miraidon and is quite competent at role compression since it doesn't need to set up to hit the KO benchmarks it's looking for, able to run wisp, taunt, speed control or specific coverage options one might need to complete their teams, a real swiss army knife!
Arceus-Ghost sports a valuable immunity to fake out and extreme speed, the main forms of priority in the tier, while having an incredibly threatening STAB of its own and great coverage to complement it. Probably the best extreme-killer check in the tier as it doesn't drop as easily to Dark coverage from it as lunala or shadow rider and can actually sport fighting coverage in Aura sphere or focus blast if you love gambling to hit it back after getting a will-o-wisp off
Arcues-Dark is a ghost resist in a tier where shadow-rider is legal. Darkceus is extremely competent at using cosmic power + body press + foul play + recover to become an unkillable titan that sits on almost the entire metagame (especially after tera) and offers a more unconventional way to win on top of still being perfectly capable of running more standard utility arceus sets. Its typing grants it a very nice immunity to sableye wisp and disruption moves but that won't stop mega gengar or other arceus forms from disrupting it, and xerneas will gladly use it as setup fodder
Arcues-Grass is a personal favorite, its typing being very nice into Groudon, Miraidon and Kyogre. Pair it with your own Kyogre to cover fire moves and you have one of the more difficult arceus typings to remove and a great toolkit to work with as always. Lower than the rest as its best niche isn't well-defined and grass is not a great STAB typing in this metagame but I personally think it could use a bit more rep
Arceus-Fire, Poison, and Steel. Having fairy resists is good! Not much else to say about these guys though, just some arceus forms to consider into Xern and Fairceus.
Arceus-Water: I love this guy in SV dubers and I felt bad for him but usually you're just using primal kyogre as a water type to not get invalidated by Primal groudon and has a very unfortunate weakness to miraidon which makes any pokemon worse in this format. Should probably only be considered with mega-rayquaza to fix these aforementioned problems and doing so will leave you with an arceus form that basically the entire metagame is unable to hit super-effectively, a solid enough perk
One other pokemon I will mention is Lunala. Lunala's ability and typing make it possibly the most consistent tailwind/trick room setter in the format. With a mental herb there's practically no way to stop speed control from going up and it can completely swing games in its teams favor and I think more offensive teams should HEAVILY consider adding this guy to their roster. Also has a good signature Z move if you want to vaporize something and some other options such as meteor beam wisp and obviously excellent access to wide guard, something arceus can't boast about when running support sets.
Early thoughts on metagame, expect teamdump soon when NDOTSL ends!
Best pokemon in the tier simply because of sheer strength, its damage output is unrivaled and super consistent. Living a Hadron boosted Electro Drift or Draco Meteor without Light Screen is very hard if not impossible, especially from Specs. Specs is the most splashable set while Scarf can be used to nullify would be revenge killers like Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow, I have also seen Dragonium-Z get usage in the new ladder and in the game LogIce had versus Iceberg. Really splashable Pokemon with little checks and absurd damage output while outspeeding most things in the meta with ease.
One of the three viable Ground-types and the centralizing force in the mini-weather war. Incredible typing and Precipice Blades is very very strong with little switch-ins. Primal Groudon's only real flaw is not having the most special bulk in the world, so it can falter against the likes of Miraidon, Calyrex-Shadow, and Arceus formes. It has a lot it can run aside from Precipice Blades, it can run Heat Crash to deal heavy damage to Arceus formes, Xerneas, and Yveltal; it can run Overheat to get rid of the likes of Zamazenta-C and Arceus-Ground in a pinch; Stealth Rock is a great option to break sashes and get bulkier things into OHKO range for strong attackers such as Calyrex-I, Calyrex-S, Xerneas, and Miraidon; it can even run Roar to dissuade bulkier setup users like Arceus-Fairy and Xerneas.
Best Arceus forme and rounds out the Tier 1s, stupid bulk and resists or is neutral to a great majority of the tier, outspeeds everything that isn't super fast, and has perfect coverage in Pixie Plate Judgment + Earth Power and can easily Tera Ground to bolster this coverage and become a secondary Ground-type to check Miraidon and Primal Groudon. Very unkillable, Calm Mind sets are easy to steamroll with and utility sets always get value with Will-O-Wisp, Snarl, Tailwind etc. Recover keeps Arceus-Fairy topped up after getting hit by some of the strongest pokemon and still surviving, making it very self sufficient.
I think this pokemon is very hype, Flying-type is incredibly strong offensively and Mega Rayquaza pretty much does what Mega Salamence does in regular ND Doubles, click Flying STAB and kill shit. It is also instrumental in the weather war against Primal Groudon and is one of the only things that can simply muscle past opponents. I do agree Focus Sash is probably a bit bad, but Life Orb Mega Rayquaza has unrivaled damage output (if we do not consider Specs Miraidon, which is a Fakemon anyways.) Extreme Speed also becomes a really good clean up tool with Life Orb too, cleaning up chipped down Xerneas and Arceus formes, and it can even 2HKO Miraidon with an Adamant Nature most of the time, which becomes all the time with the involvement of minor chip or Stealth Rock.
I really like both of these nerds, Fake Out and Screens are incredible in a tier where moving first and living isn't granted to every pokemon due to the ridiculous amount of attacking stats and speed some of these Pokemon have. Grimmsnarl can also act as anti-screens with Fake Tears and Scary Face but I also really like Sableye due to its switch and Tera forcing capabilities with Quash, Will-O-Wisp, and Encore. Grimmsnarl can also further distrupt the field with Parting Shot and Thunder Wave.
I think these two are really interesting and really good into the Fairies of the tier, Toxic Spikes Eternatus pretty much auto-wins the fat matchup when paired with the likes of Zygarde-C and Arceus-Fairy due to their longevity and the poison damage stacking up fast. NDM with Weakness Policy and some support can steamroll teams on its own due to its typing and is one of the only consistent counters to every Fairy-type in the tier.
These two are incredibly dumb if they get going and have Tera available. Zygarde-C is an incredible counter to Primal Groudon, probably the most consistent one of all. Thousand Arrows is also great as Ground resists are already few and far in between and Thousand Arrows also hits Flying-types for neutral damage which is great. Xerneas is stupid if you get it to use Geomancy freely, which does require a good bit of support but it is really worth it. Tera Fairy Xerneas does great collateral damage while 2HKOing even resists with Moonblast, and Tera Ground HP Ground can OHKO Primal Groudon and also be immune to Electric-type attacks from Miraidon which is great.
Last but not the least, horses. Calyrex formes are great in this format, I honestly think they don't even need Tera. I have had great success with Icium or Groundium Z on Calyrex-Ice and Ghostium Z on Calyrex-Shadow, these moves grab a lot of OHKOs and starts their snowballing and bypasses the Wide Guard from Zamazenta and Lunala who would normally be very annoying for both.
I wanted to build around cosmic power darkceus, a potent threat that can quickly become impossible to dispose of for certain teams. STAB Foul play and body press allow darkceus to hit most of the format for decent damage, but I quickly realized that It would be best to compound the stalliness of darkceus with Toxic Spikes pressure and placing opponents on a timer. With Eternatus as the best Toxic Spikes setter in the format and packing poison STAB to help pressure fairies, I turned my attention towards being able to threaten Miraidon, a job for Zacian. Upon adding Zacian to the team I found myself in a difficult position, The team lacked a way to easily dispose of primal-groudon in timely fashion, and while eternatus could throw poison around at the fairies in the format, it could do nothing to prevent them from simply setting up off of lead. After searching through the builder for awhile I found the perfect solution for my woes: Ho-oh.
Ho-oh has an incredible typing in this format, with its incredible special bulk it is capable of completely walling Both Fairceus AND Xerneas while groudon poses almost no threat to it with its STABS. Paired with mega-rayquaza's strong winds, Ho-oh is even able to withstand electric hits int he format, including Miraidon's electro-drift, set tailwind, and phase dangerous setup threats to spread poison. Sacred fire is a massive problem for the likes of tier staples Calyrex-Ice, Zacian and Zamazenta as well, and regenerator means that ho-oh is readily able to stay healthy throughout the battle and is rewarded for switching out against the few hits in the format that threaten it. It turned out to be the perfect support pokemon to fuel the engine of this team, with rayquaza going scarf to cover for miscellaneous matchups and general defensive utility with the ho-oh. I wasn't really sure what to do with the 6th slot but sableye ended being solid enough, though it could definitely be experimented with (I'm sure rillaboom could work wonders there).
Overall I really like this team and think it represents Ho-ohs potential in the format well; More people should try building it! Acting as a blanket check/stopgap to all of Xerneas, Fairceus, Zamazenta, and Zacian while being able to switch in safely on most P-dons and threaten tailwind, as well as threaten burns on other phys attackers like ekiller, ice rider, and Zygarde... I think it's pros definitely outweigh the few cons in having a poor matchup into Miraidon and Kyogre Primal mostly and is definitely worth your time the next time you need to find a way to not auto-lose to Xerneas/Fairceus.
more top of the tier is better one in the same tier
some of them i will explain why it worth this place，which means those not explained are unquestionable in that tier。
S:calyrex-shadow farigiraf urshifu-rapid-strike incineroar groudon-primal xerneas
A:zamazenta-crowned rayquaza-mega rillaboom amoonguss calyrex-ice kangaskhan-mega（wtf，why there are still dumbass use seimis toss？）kyogre-primal whimsicott(compared with tornadus，whimsicotts move pool is better，which……ah fuck，干扰能力更强。though hit less harder&lesser bulk are doesnt metter) gengar-mega（should be S in technically，but……yeah there are tooooooooo many CSR sooooo yeahhhhhh I like gengar，and im gengars fans，buttttt A tier） landorus-Incarnate（in vgc only two major legendary afraid lando。but in here we got five，yeah i think zacian probably a good teammate with mir）
B:miraidon（i like miraidon，and he(she？) is super violence but yeah，good ground and fairy type are too much） tapu-fini（should be top of A，but i not quiet sure。fini is the mother of purple&X，unquestionable。and lot of legendary cant do too much thread to fini so fini just stand there and support all team） grimmsnarl arceus （only normal arc other arc are trash） lunala necrozma-dusk-mane zacian-crowned clefairy ursaluna-bloodmoon indeedee-female salamence-mega
C:ogerpon-hearthflame（could be a xerneas counter i guess？） ragingbolt（cant get Protosynthesis in harsh sunlight） marshadow（could be B） margearna（not sure，didnt used before，and opposite mar are pretty bad） tornadus chi-yu（i need chi-yu porn） chien-pao（go to play with zama） yveltal（pretty lame，i dont know why so many pepole think its good） sableye stakataka
D:ironhand（出生玩意，i hate this elf you see cake thing） fluttermane ogerpon-cornerstone metagross-mega koraidon（some one ps a jo5 Diavolo meme，and ps boss into koraidon，the little girl into kyogre-P or X） zygarde（i like zygarde，because i used alot in nddou，but yeah cause of the old relationship so i mention it，zyg should not in this list，but i like zygarde）
thank you smudge for giving usthis format(is that how you get a smash from TL?bruhhhh，look this。smudge管理，我祝你家财万贯、学业有成，身体健康，财源滚滚，固拉多断崖剑永不miss，文柚果白马永不遇老虎!)
Just got knocked out of the kickoff tour. Very much not a Doubles player so I'm proud of my performance, beating Glimmer and taking LogIce to game 3 (honestly with hindsight I threw g1, should've gone after Groudon with Etern t7, but hey thats mons lol). Gonna share my thoughts on the metagame and, since I'm out of the kickoff and not in NDOTL, I'll post the teams I used too. Not usually a metagame poster and teamdumper but figured a young metagame like this could use some discussion!
Overall, I had a lot of fun building and playing for this tier. Despite my short experience with it, I got super into it (R8 can confirm, their DMs were spammed about it haha sorry for being annoying <3). I don't really have a lot of serious Doubles experience, mostly from an old draft league and occassionally messing around with friends (and Do Not Use VGC...) but I am well versed in the singles ND Ubers metagame so I tried to take some things from that when teambuilding here, along with what I did know of Doubles. There are very few Pokemon that I felt like were overbearing while teambuilding. Obviously Pokemon like Miraidon and Calyrex-Shadow require attention but I didn't feel like either was unbeatable in the builder or in the game. I was impressed with the balance overall--I personally felt like it was reasonable to handle every Pokemon in the builder (except maybe Xern), and even with a couple bad matchups it's easy to gives teams an out.
Here are the teams I used, along with the tour replay(s) I used that team in. Explanations and thoughts are in spoilers to help make this post more readable and decrease the page size.
This wasn't my first attempt at building but it's the first attempt that's still in my builder (my first outing got deleted fast haha). Baton Pass in Doubles is fascinating to me and I saw an interesting opportunity to use Calyrex-Shadow's As One ability to collect Special Attack boosts and pass them to Specs Miraidon Discharge, so I decided to build that. The rest of the team was catered to supporting that general idea.
I added Pdon as an obligatory Ground type to pair with Miraidon as it spams Electric-type moves. I think this mon is super neat in this tier as it has a pretty deep movepool and a lot of flexibility in its moveslots. Here, I put on Helping Hand as a bit of a meme, and it didn't end up getting used in the tour battle, but it actually came in handy during testing to help Calyrex and Miraidon blow through targets with their spread moves. Don't run Heat Crash, it's bad, run a different Fire-type move this think doinks off of what you want to hit with Fire STAB lol
Zygarde is an alternative Ground-type that can Paralyze key targets with Glare and also serve as a setup and revenge killer w/ Tera Normal Extreme Speed. This is probably the closest to the weakest link on the team but I do think Glaring Calyrex-Shadow helped win me the game, so it's still useful. Mega Rayquaza is Mega Rayquaza, it's a very strong Tailwind setter, not a lot to say here.
Ogerpon-W is definitely the most heat mon on the team. Don't think I've seen any discussion on it, but I think it's viable as a redirector on more fast-paced teams like this one. I was suprised no one else had used this mon yet, because it has some super nice qualities. It gets Encore and Follow Me to support and help Calyrex set up and pass the boosts it gets, while also having a funny interaction with Rayquaza: it puts immense pressure on Primal Groudon, thanks to Air Lock. It's a bit gimmicky but you can see it in action in the game above.
I built this team seeing how Glimmer had a tendency to run Prankster users on her teams, which paid off as she loaded Sableye in our match. Two Dark types isn't the best defensively, seeing how good Zama-C is, and that Fairy moves are decently common, but it's not that bad as this team aims to be more of a balance build, dictating the speed of the team, and cleaning with Chi-Yu at the end.
This team is pretty self-explanatory, with no picks that I'd consider particularly heat. Chi-Yu is cool because with Scarf, you can run Modest and still outspeed Miraidon and even Calyrex-S. Shoutouts to zee in their post for this idea. I went Tera Dark on this set for super strong Dark Pulses but you could probably go with a different Tera, either Fire or something defensively. It's also cool because it boosts moves on all your Pokemon except for Groudon (honestly replace Heat Crash with Overheat that would be so fire) thanks to Beads of Ruin being a field-wide ability.
Etern is bulky w/ Shuca for Pdon and Groundceus, honestly this exact set is kinda ass, you want a different Tera and probably a move to hit Zama-C, but the overall concept proved effective.
Rayquaza is Sashed to have a better chance to get Tailwind up. V-Create is to snipe Zamazenta-C but honestly the calc isn't that impressive, thanks to Dauntless Shield it doesn't come close to OHKOing. Could replace this, Ray has a deep deep movepool, be creative.
My attempt at building Trick Room, frankly I got rolled in my tour game with this, LogIce played really well in that game. Despite that I still feel okay enough about the team to post it and talk about it and not banish it from my builder :p
Calyrex-Ice is a really good Pokemon in this tier, so I chose it as a starting point for a Trick Room team using an OTR set. NMI Tera Ice gives you some absolutely silly calcs with Glacial Lance which only get stronger over time. Protect is there for if Trick Room goes down, it gives you a little breathing room to get it back up or scout the opponent's intentions.
Lunala is great because Shadow Shield allows it to almost always get Trick Room up, even if it's double targeted. Despite running full bulk, it has an OK damage output still. Hatterene is the last setter--I wasn't sure what to put in this slot but Magic Bounce + Healing Wish was an appealing combo for a team like this, to reflect Hazards or punish moves like Encore or Taunt (which I completely misused in the tour game but oh well lol).
Our abusers should be pretty easy to understand: the two Primals using spread moves. Frankly, these sets aren't great--I put Heat Crash on Pdon AGAIN, fuck, lol; and Kyogre cannot hit opposing Pdon if Desolate Land is up--but the general idea of using the two Primals for TR abusers is strong. Groudon is bulky enough that it can get a Swords Dance off if the right Pokemon are in on the opponent's side, such as a Spec Miraidon locked into an Electric-type move, or Fairyceus that can't really touch you.
Bursa is the last mon and, despite getting OHKOed on turn 1 (rip sweet prince), it's a powerful option thanks to its ability to check Calyrex-Shadow using its Normal typing. Mind's Eye Blood Moon and Earth Power have very little defensive counterplay and hit a lot of the top tiers in this metagame for powerful damage. Its Special Bulk is a problem, which we saw in the tour game, but if you can get a Calm Mind off this becomes more reasonable.
I'm definitely disappointed I couldn't win with this team as I felt very confident going in. Frankly, I think the team is still very strong--I just threw the game in the final turns. I was banking on Mewtwo's Expanding Force killing Groudon, knowing it was the bigger threat, and then attacking Arceus with Eternatus. My inexperience with Doubles made me forget that I could have targeted Groudon--if Expanding Force killed, I would be able to take out Arceus anyways since it would re-target, and if it didn't, it would secure the Groudon kill and put me in a favorable 2v2 position, instead on needing Mewtwo to be able to 1v2 the remaining Pokemon.
Lele is the Psychic Terrain setter of choice, not Indeedee, thanks to its great speed tier with Scarf and very useful STAB combination. Scarf Moonblast pressures Miraidon incredibly hard, while also giving pokemon such as Yveltal and Rayquaza major issues with it. Yes, making it faster than Miraidon does mean Electric Terrain can go up easier, but that was a trade-off I was willing to make for that speed tier.
Mega Mewtwo Y was my Expanding Force user thanks to its incredible speed tier, good coverage (Earth Power is a very nice benefit compared to Deoxys), and its passable bulk allows it the chance to get off a Nasty Plot sometimes, which allows it to just absolutely roll teams, unlike Deoxys which can't take a hit nor can it set up.
Yveltal is a Tailwind setter that helps check Calyrex-Shadow, which is a problem for our core above. Sitrus helps it get a little health back to allow it to take one more Astral Barrage should it need to. Fairyceus is bulk invested for many of the same reasons--while Lele and Mewtwo don't have paper bulk, they're pretty bad, so this allows the team to take a hit if need be while also providing pressure with CM Judgment.
Eternatus is Dragonium Z because, honestly, I just thought it would be a fun item to run on it. While it didn't end up seeing use in the tour game it did come in handy during testing. Not sure if Recover is good here tbh, could swap it to a Fire-type move to hit Zamazenta better.
Zamazenta is a cool Pokemon in this tier that provides nice utility thanks to its bulk, speed tier, and Wide Guard. I do wish this mon was faster than Miraidon but hey it's still pretty good. While this set is running WG / IronPress / Behemoth Bash this Pokemon gets a lot of moves and I could see some serious exploration with it down the line.
Some interesting and good-seeming mons I did not end up using are Coaching Zamazenta, Chien-Pao, and Terapagos. Zacian-C, despite the nerfs, still looks like it has some interesting sauce. This gets Quick Guard for some reason which seems funny? I had the fortune to not run into Xerneas in bracket but that mon seems like it could be really stupid if optimized--pair it with something like Encore Mega Gengar and it could get ridiculous. Would post a VR tier list but Tier Maker is down for me for some reason??? So remind me in a week and I may post something probably not idk.
I personally don't think Calyrex-Shadow nor Miraidon need action--not sure what the consensus is on these, but I've seen them talked about being broken. IMO, there are reliable methods of counterplay to them, at least for now, if you're willing to experiment a little. I could definitely see this changing down the line once people figure out the tier more and optimize their movepools and potential partners. If anything I'm going to throw a hate party for Xern, Geomancy is a fundamentally broken move and (yapping continues).
Thanks to Smudge for hosting the metagame and the tour! Despite my short experience with it I had a lot of fun and would absolutely sign up for more NatDex Doubles Ubers content in the future.
NDOTSL is over for me and I took a swift exit in the kickoff tour so I'll be done with this tier for a while but I did have a lot of fun with it. Gonna do a teamdump of what I used across the tour. My replays are in the replay thread if you wanna watch I'm too lazy to link em. Click the sprites for the pastes.
Week 1 vs NinjaSnapple (L)
This was a busy week for me because I was in Hawaii for the VGC World Championships. I woke up at like 8:40 Hawaiian time to find NinjaSnapple reminding me we were supposed to play so I took this paste from my teamchat and threw EVs on it and played on my phone. Ninja outplayed me thoroughly in game but I think this team is mostly fine, just in need of some set changes if it were to be used again.
Week 2 vs Smudge (W)
I wanted to make a team that enabled Xerneas via offensive synergy to play against Smudge. With Primal Groudon/Koraidon/Arceus-Ground I had multiple ways to hit all types resistant to Fairy. However, in game what ended up happening was that I had a pretty solid turn 1 double kill and then Koraidon and Rillaboom got to pivot around a bunch. Xerneas never got to boost up
Week 3 vs Glimmer (W)
This team was probably my favorite from the tour. It just has a lot of ways to put the heavy hitters in position, as Grimmsnarl can enable the Special Attackers or make Groudon outrun CSR at -2 Speed and the Calyrex/Groudon/Zamazenta trio forms a strong Coaching + TR mode. The team never felt too disjointed in terms of flow or speed tiers and it had quite the impressive showing in the actual tournament game, as Glimmer's Kyogre without Rayquaza could not stand up to the triple pivot.
Week 4 vs Frixel (W)
Week 5 vs Jello (W)
Going into week 4 I wanted to switch up my flow and bring RayOgre into Frixel. I lost to wob in a roomtour game where he had CSR + RayOgre and I figured these were all Pokemon I'd probably been sleeping on a bit, plus I had already exchanged my earlier pastes with Frixel and knew he was a smart prepper so I wanted to catch him off guard. I really liked the Triple Sash + Scarf Miraidon and Zacian setup this team has going on, it's just very hard to actually get through all the speed and power on offer here - the biggest issue is making sure Sableye can always contribute something when on the field or else you'll get caught out of position. I got to use Water Blast Zacian in our game which was pretty hype. By week 5 our team had already qualified for playoffs and I had Baltimore regionals this week so I didn't know if Jello and I would actually play, but he caught me when I was stopped for dinner on my drive home so I just grabbed my previous paste and played on phone. I got a lucky Opulse dodge that turned a game going well for me into an instant loss for Jello.
Semis vs Frixel (W)
I liked the setup from the previous team so much that I decided to just change out the primal and keep it rolling, all the way down to Zacian still being Water blast since I still had Rayquaza's Air Lock (you'll never guess which Pokemon I tera'd this game). I got a strong start but Frixel's bulky Kyogre with Light Screen support proved to be annoying and gave him some room to claw back into the game. I tried to midground what his Calyrex set was in the endgame and almost got punished for it but I managed to take this one pretty narrowly.
Finals vs Logice (L)
This team is probably not great. I figured Logice would try to bring some sort of Ice Rider/Lunala Trick Room team into me as opposed to try and contest me in the speed race, but he smartly decided the better way to go about that was just running Ekiller with multiple bulky support options. The idea was that Lunala / RayOgre / Indeedee could overwhelm a slow mode and then Miraidon or Xerneas could work the cleanup duty but in game I went for an early Xerneas gameplan as I didn't know how else to approach getting through Rillaboom + Yveltal. I lost Xerneas early and the game pretty much ended there.
Final score: 5-2.
Starting and ending the season with my only two losses is a bit funny but overall I had a lot of fun playing and building in an unexplored format like this and it was nice to get to use some old friends like the Primals. If the people who have been playing this wanna get together and curate some samples and a VR that'd be cool but if not there's definitely plenty of resources for onlookers to pick through in this thread. Not quite sure what's going on with NDOMs right now but apparently NDDubers is safe from the drama so it'd be nice to get to play this again sometime down the road.
Calyrex-S is probably the best Pokemon in the tier, but if it isn't it's undeniably top 3 and it's pretty surprising that I didn't pick up on that the first time around. Miraidon and Groudon are pretty much always going to provide value of you want them to.
RayOgre is a good core but definitely a package deal for the most part. Ranked next to the best two Arc forms, Xerneas, and Zacian. The first three of those are the 3 strongest setup mons in the tier, and Zacian's Speed/Power/Coverage options render it one of the stronger options when it comes to 1:1 trading.
I think Sableye edges out Grimmsnarl for the best utility guy and I only wanted to rank one of them in tier 3 but it might be close. Ice Rider is honestly quite threatening but the opportunity cost of not being able to run CSR is so significant that I think it's gotta be tier 3. Yveltal and Zama are mostly notable for annoying CSR and having a few other decent matchups. Arc Steel is a solid defensive Arc and Arc Ground is a solid offensive one.
Tier 4 = generally more limited but valuable roles
Tier 5 = fringe but usable
I just ranked mons on the tiermaker so apologies if something is missing.
NDOTSL / Kickoff Team Dump
Now that NDOTSL is over (tiebreaks going on but I’m not playing) and I'm out of kickoff, figured I'd post a rather large team dump here. This is my first real experience playing an Ubers tier, and I'll have to say it's a lot of fun. Smudge thank you for putting this tier on and all of these can be nominated for samples. All teams were collective builds by myself and Smudge , with big assistance from Schister , oh the guilt , eragon , and Glimmer throughout the tours.
/
Pastes:
This composition is my absolute favorite in this tier and I think it's very strong into most matchups. Sableye is the best prankster support in the tier, providing screens, speed control in quash, encore for setup threats (Xerneas, Mega Rayquaza, etc.), and fake out pressure. Foul play can be slotted specifically for massive damage against Calyrex-Ice, which it speed ties with. Coaching Zamazenta has 2 major targets on these teams, being Primal Groudon and Calyrex-Ice. Coaching can also be used defensively on Miraidon to live attacks from opposing Primal Groudon. With Intimidate not running super rampant right now, Calyrex-Ice can afford to not be clear amulet like it was forced to in Reg-G. This allows for sets like Z-Caly, Weakness Policy, and Never Melt Ice. Groudon sets are pretty standard, Overheat/Heat Crash are interchangeable in my opinion, overheat is just better into Zamazenta. Miraidon sets can be very flexible. These teams feature Dragonium-Z and Specs, however I generally think specs Miraidon is not great in the tier. Speed tying opposing Miraidons is extremely awkward, as evident in my match vs cyclonez_ in kickoff, our game being decided on a 50/50. Z > Scarf > Specs. That being said, I was comfortable being Specs on this team due to sable.
Welcome to the ultimate anti-setup team. Hopping on Schister 's Ho Oh propaganda here for a minute, this mon is a menace into any forms of boosting. Whirlwind is great phasing, tailwind helps with speed control, and sacred fire fishes for burns. This set could be Brave Bird > Protect to make it able to hit Primal Kyogre, but it is not entirely necessary due to Miraidon and Zacian-C having favorable matchups. Imprision Arceus is a bit situational, and Ninjasnapple had 100% Calm Mind Arceus usage going into this week, so went on a Hail Mary for the fun set.
E-Killer Haven. Extremely hyper offensive team, focused on shutting down Miraidon and revenging setup with priority spam. Most of the sets here are pretty standard, but big thanks to all the support mentioned above, especially oh the guilt and charmdi for helping me get the finals win here.
We end on a gimmick team idea that I stole from Smudge . Gravity + setup Primal Groudon has the opportunity to just sweep teams on lead if it's able to get free turns, and this team attempts to capitalize on and promote them. Actually pulled off a win with this team in kickoff which was pretty fun.
I had quite a lot of fun participating in the recent kickoff tour. I made a ~6 hour discussion video of National Dex Doubles Ubers, giving an analysis of various Pokemon and arguing for their relative strength as represented in viability rankings. Check it out!
An Excursus on National Dex Doubles Ubers
This is my current opinion on SV National Dex DUbers viability rankings, which I develop in the video. Because the tier is fairly new, I also listed a number of Pokemon that I felt had potential to be ranked, though I wasn't sure. Here's the tiermaker if interested.
Finally, here are some teams I used during the kickoff tournament.
/ / / / / - Xerneas Calyrex-Ice balance (team I used the most in the kickoff tour)
/ / / / / - Draining Kiss Xerneas support (peaked #4 on ladder before I got bored)
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Ghost
Ho-Oh
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Rillaboom
Amoonguss
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Water
Chien-Pao
Chi-Yu
Ditto
Eternatus
Farigiraf
Gengar-Mega
Iron Hands
Kangaskhan-Mega
Koraidon
Magearna
Sableye
Smeargle
Terapagos
138
129
120
100
97
90
85
77
Reshiram, 
Zekrom, 
Terapagos, 
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Steel
Salamence-Mega
