Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

You guys should really consider unbanning Zamazenta-C

Ghold in the tier kinda screws it up badly (Especially now that bulky ghold has proven to be best ghold, and bulky doesn't get 2 shot with crunch)
No tera means it can't just tera out of its weaknesses
It can't wear boots
Slower speed and Steel Type means it actually loses as an IDBP mon vs it's Hero variant (This doesn't matter)

It also has literally the worst 4mss known to man.
Has to run Stone Edge to beat Moltres or Yard
Has to run Crunch to beat Gholdengo
Has to run Heavy Slam to beat Lele and Hatt
Has to run Substitute to beat anything that runs Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave

It's stuck in a corner where no set it can have lets it have a chance at beating even half the teams out there.

On top of all this, Set Variety
It has literally none. Unlike its Hero form it is entirely confined to being an IDBP bot with zero other ways to use it.

So in other terms:
You always know what it's going to do
You can kill it with any special attacker that hits it SE
It can't recover any HP ever or wear boots.
You can kill it easily using any Gholdengo with Nasty Plot

Literally its only benefit compared to basic IDBP Zama is immunity to Toxic, which was already solved by Substitute.
(and the general steel type defensive profile I guess but being weak to Ground, Fire, and especially fighting (Every special attacker ever runs Focus Blast) bites it, badly.)


Dog is most likely fine, at least a sus unban is warranted for Dog.
 
Darlington said:
Usually don't comment in this forum but Ogerpon-WellSpring, KingGambit and Roaring Moon I feel like needs a suspect test or just needs to go.
Click to expand...
(in the musical tone) "One of these things is not like the others!"

Kingambit is fine, and I'm going to be honest, it doesn't even deserve its A+ ranking at the moment.
Every team has plenty of Dark resists, as well as plenty of Fighting move users, and using any of those usually turns out just fine.
(Even bulky ghold actually beats it in a 1v1 if it doesnt have a TON of allies fainted)

Roaring Moon I was entirely thinking would be broken, but it turns out it's honestly not that bad. I expected Choice sets to steamroll entire teams with banded Outrage, because from the start DDance was manageable. Just have something that resists knock, or simply a mola works, which can live a +1 hit and Toxic. (Choice turned out to not be as good as I thought because fairies exist)
(Also for anyone else reading, the acrobatics set I'd call a meme without tera flying, but usually a meme is supposed to at least make you laugh, stop using it, Dragon Z is SO much better)

Ogerpon can go though, I'll give you that one.
 
SHOSPLE COLUPIS said:
You guys should really consider unbanning Zamazenta-C

Ghold in the tier kinda screws it up badly (Especially now that bulky ghold has proven to be best ghold, and bulky doesn't get 2 shot with crunch)
No tera means it can't just tera out of its weaknesses
It can't wear boots
Slower speed and Steel Type means it actually loses as an IDBP mon vs it's Hero variant (This doesn't matter)

It also has literally the worst 4mss known to man.
Has to run Stone Edge to beat Moltres or Yard
Has to run Crunch to beat Gholdengo
Has to run Heavy Slam to beat Lele and Hatt
Has to run Substitute to beat anything that runs Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave

It's stuck in a corner where no set it can have lets it have a chance at beating even half the teams out there.

On top of all this, Set Variety
It has literally none. Unlike its Hero form it is entirely confined to being an IDBP bot with zero other ways to use it.

So in other terms:
You always know what it's going to do
You can kill it with any special attacker that hits it SE
It can't recover any HP ever or wear boots.
You can kill it easily using any Gholdengo with Nasty Plot

Literally its only benefit compared to basic IDBP Zama is immunity to Toxic, which was already solved by Substitute.
(and the general steel type defensive profile I guess but being weak to Ground, Fire, and especially fighting (Every special attacker ever runs Focus Blast) bites it, badly.)


Dog is most likely fine, at least a sus unban is warranted for Dog.
Click to expand...
you're neglecting the massive bulk increase when compared to base zama (25 to both defenses), especially when combined with the additional steel typing. the ability to drop sub also gives it a huge benefit moveslot-wise over reg IDBP zama, since you can fit either more coverage or rest for longlevity. rest IDBP zama c is downright toxic in the gamestates it's able to force, and the fact that you still outspeed common metagame staples like mega diancie or lati twins means you're still incredibly hard to punish, all freeing zama c would do is further necessitate ghold and pex on every team since it's just so much harder to answer offensively thanks to its steel typing and boosted bulk. the only speed control option that even remotely threatens you out is booster ival, which needs booster to outspeed and even then can't ohko you from full even if you are max spa focus blast. your only option is to check it defensively but rest lets it stick around substantially longer than it would otherwise. Lando EQ does 25 after one iron defense and gliscor's can't even crack 20 on a maxroll. it's just regular IDBP zama but even more polarizing
 
SHOSPLE COLUPIS said:
You guys should really consider unbanning Zamazenta-C

Ghold in the tier kinda screws it up badly (Especially now that bulky ghold has proven to be best ghold, and bulky doesn't get 2 shot with crunch)
No tera means it can't just tera out of its weaknesses
It can't wear boots
Slower speed and Steel Type means it actually loses as an IDBP mon vs it's Hero variant (This doesn't matter)

It also has literally the worst 4mss known to man.
Has to run Stone Edge to beat Moltres or Yard
Has to run Crunch to beat Gholdengo
Has to run Heavy Slam to beat Lele and Hatt
Has to run Substitute to beat anything that runs Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave

It's stuck in a corner where no set it can have lets it have a chance at beating even half the teams out there.

On top of all this, Set Variety
It has literally none. Unlike its Hero form it is entirely confined to being an IDBP bot with zero other ways to use it.

So in other terms:
You always know what it's going to do
You can kill it with any special attacker that hits it SE
It can't recover any HP ever or wear boots.
You can kill it easily using any Gholdengo with Nasty Plot

Literally its only benefit compared to basic IDBP Zama is immunity to Toxic, which was already solved by Substitute.
(and the general steel type defensive profile I guess but being weak to Ground, Fire, and especially fighting (Every special attacker ever runs Focus Blast) bites it, badly.)


Dog is most likely fine, at least a sus unban is warranted for Dog.
Click to expand...
I'm not totally qualified to say if this should be tested or not, so I'm just gonna give you some calcs with the guys in the tier that I would think might check it off the top of my head

:sv/Zamazenta-Crowned:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam
- Iron Defense
- Rest

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 134-158 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 111-131 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO
This checks it pretty well if it doesn't have sedge

Solid check to idbp zama-h
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 94-112 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO (yes this is its best move)
+3 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 188+ Def Zapdos: 123-144 (32.1 - 37.5%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO
not a very good check, loses to this set without para hax (or zama could pp stall it with rest)

252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 148-176 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (nice damage you got there)

Not totally sure why you listed this as a check, kinda does 0 damage
0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 80-96 (20.6 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 21.1% chance to 3HKO
+3 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 156-185 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If epower variants start being used they might beat it, might not, needless to say that eq is just set-up on even tho zama-h is weak to eq.

Yeah, maybe this guy can at least revenge kill it or something since it's bulky and strong and stuff
252 SpA Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 87-103 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 21% chance to 4HKO (lol nice 25% from max spa bolt tbolt on a neutral hit)
+3 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 313-369 (80 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 187-222 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Even if you tech flame you can't beat it
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 80-96 (20.6 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowking-Galar: 180-213 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 51-60 (13.1 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-88 (19.3 - 22.6%) -- possible 5HKO
+6 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 156-183 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
this realistically just gets set up on because it doesn't do nearly enough damage to meaningfully threaten zama

Yeah zama-c is slower than koko unlike zama-h...too bad it doesn't really matter
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 88-105 (22.6 - 27%) -- 38.9% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 172-204 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pex pp stalls it eventually I think (but you're gonna be there for a long time lol)
+3 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Toxapex: 83-98 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Toxapex: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Toxapex: 43-51 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned on a critical hit: 138-165 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
urshi doesn't quite come in on it and beat it but it gets significant enough chip for most any special attacker to deal with it afterwards. better hope your urshi isn't chipped though.

Yeah volc checks it regardless of it's bulky or offensive volc, I don't wanna put 5 calcs so I'll just say bulky dodges a 2hko from +3 bpress and 2hkos with +1 flame, offensive dodges ohko from +3 bpress and 2hkos with unboosted flame.

Yeah this 1v1s it for obvious reasons idt I need to explain that bit

ofc this beats it, only viable mon immune to bpress + resists hslam

Almost forgot about this guy, it doesn't quite 1v1 it either though
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO
even luster drop into aura sphere doesn't kill
252 SpA Latios-Mega Luster Purge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 103-123 (26.5 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Aura Sphere vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-206 (44.8 - 53%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

Yes this is only looking at hslam stuff and 252/252+ because i'm not gonna try to do a bunch of different things but it can beat up its other checks with other random coverage/spreads, playing against this is probably just gambling on what it's running. Also there aren't any physical attackers in the tier that can come in and beat it really outside of like mmedi, which does a not-so-great 55% to +3 zama-c and doesn't ohko a +1 zama-c (and it would lose to a faster zama-c)

Obviously calcs and sets and theories etc don't mean as much in a vacuum as stuff actually does in practice, but realistically, this mon has the set variety to pull random bs against its checks and it's just horrible to try to get off the field late-game, really doesn't seem fun to deal with. Also can prob just trade with anything it wants using a purely offensive set with coverage since you're really never just ohkoing or anything
 
BrisingrDraconis said:
:sv/Zamazenta-Crowned:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam
- Iron Defense
- Rest
Click to expand...
I'm just gonna say... That set is bonkers.
No speed means you get outsped by a ton of stuff that you could normally beat if you ran speed.

Mega Medicham, Charizard Y, Iron Valiant, Fast Volcarona, etc.

And running less spdef means that stuff dies a lot faster.
Zamazenta is spread really thin.
 
SHOSPLE COLUPIS said:
I'm just gonna say... That set is bonkers.
No speed means you get outsped by a ton of stuff that you could normally beat if you ran speed.

Mega Medicham, Charizard Y, Iron Valiant, Fast Volcarona, etc.

And running less spdef means that stuff dies a lot faster.
Zamazenta is spread really thin.
Click to expand...
getting outsped doesn't mean anything when you're living everything. eving for the pokemon you mentioned is rather easy and you can just run stone edge and all of the sudden yard and volc get blown up on while mmedi gets set up on since you're so fat
 
SHOSPLE COLUPIS said:
You guys should really consider unbanning Zamazenta-C

Ghold in the tier kinda screws it up badly (Especially now that bulky ghold has proven to be best ghold, and bulky doesn't get 2 shot with crunch)
No tera means it can't just tera out of its weaknesses
It can't wear boots
Slower speed and Steel Type means it actually loses as an IDBP mon vs it's Hero variant (This doesn't matter)

It also has literally the worst 4mss known to man.
Has to run Stone Edge to beat Moltres or Yard
Has to run Crunch to beat Gholdengo
Has to run Heavy Slam to beat Lele and Hatt
Has to run Substitute to beat anything that runs Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave

It's stuck in a corner where no set it can have lets it have a chance at beating even half the teams out there.

On top of all this, Set Variety
It has literally none. Unlike its Hero form it is entirely confined to being an IDBP bot with zero other ways to use it.

So in other terms:
You always know what it's going to do
You can kill it with any special attacker that hits it SE
It can't recover any HP ever or wear boots.
You can kill it easily using any Gholdengo with Nasty Plot

Literally its only benefit compared to basic IDBP Zama is immunity to Toxic, which was already solved by Substitute.
(and the general steel type defensive profile I guess but being weak to Ground, Fire, and especially fighting (Every special attacker ever runs Focus Blast) bites it, badly.)


Dog is most likely fine, at least a sus unban is warranted for Dog.
Click to expand...

Gholdengo is also the only splashable ghost that can damage it truly. Zapdos/Moltres can win with status and Pex wins most of the time with haze (loses without haze).

It has answers, yes, and those answers are good Pokémon, but they’re very specific answers. And there are not a lot of answers overall. The steel typing does more than make it toxic immune (still huge btw given how powerful the status is because of Toxapex). It also makes it MUCH more difficult to revenge kill alongside the huge bulk. Scarf Lele always wins vs base Zama, but can not reliably win vs ZamaC because steel typing and bulk for example. There’s barely anything faster to begin with since Dragapult was banned. It’s a Mon that would just take a dump on offensive unfairly so and there’s no reason to unban a Mon like this. The tier is in a pretty nice spot outside maybe Wellspring, and we don’t need something like this.
 
If you have a Zamazenta Crown with a Ting Lu, that’s all you need to deal with its checks. Bulky Ghold is the one hard counter to Zama-C and Ting Lu annihilates it. And it doesn’t matter how many times you need Zama to switch in to wear down Ghold, because now you resist rocks. Also the birds aren’t checks because of stone edge. You just need CC, Stone edge, crunch, and heavy slam. You don’t care about beating grounds with ice fang much, and for sub you would just switch out rather than sub. If you sub you’d block the status but then lose hp with no way to recover. Which is far worse than switching into something to absorb it.

You do gain a ground weakness but you also gain 25 base points in def and spdef so that really doesn’t matter too much. And normal Zama would already switch out on something like a Gliscor, Lando T or Tusk.
 
Last edited:
Comett7778 said:
If you have a Zamazenta Crown with a Ting Lu, that’s all you need to deal with its checks. Bulky Ghold is the one hard counter to Zama-C and Ting Lu annihilates it. And it doesn’t matter how many times you need Zama to switch it to wear down Ghold, because now you resist rocks. Also the birds aren’t checks because of stone edge.

You do gain a ground weakness but you also gain 25 base points in def and spdef so that really doesn’t matter to much. And normal Zama would already switch out on something like a Gliscor, Lando T or Tusk.
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yea with ghold and annoying psychic types like slowbro just use spikestack and pursuit
 
Comett7778 said:
If you have a Zamazenta Crown with a Ting Lu, that’s all you need to deal with its checks. Bulky Ghold is the one hard counter to Zama-C and Ting Lu annihilates it. And it doesn’t matter how many times you need Zama to switch it to wear down Ghold, because now you resist rocks. Also the birds aren’t checks because of stone edge. You just need CC, Stone edge, crunch, and heavy slam. You don’t care about beating grounds with ice fang much, and for sub you would just switch out rather than sub. If you sub you’d block the status but then lose hp with no way to recover. Which is far worse than switching into something to absorb it.

You do gain a ground weakness but you also gain 25 base points in def and spdef so that really doesn’t matter too much. And normal Zama would already switch out on something like a Gliscor, Lando T or Tusk.
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To add on to this, ghold isnt just a flat out answer to Zama-C. Crunch drops are very real and in a meta where hazards are quite literally on the walls, it wont be entirely impossible for it to wear it down for a mid-game or late-game cleanup. Alongside the amazing buff in bulk, bringing this mon down isnt as simple as clicking SE move vs it. Itll be able to eat that move, kill back and possibly eat another after (From the variety of threats in the tier). It being able to switch into rocks alot more leniently compared to Non boots Zama is also very compelling. Ting lu existing also deters ghold from just doing whatever evenever and so does some other things that could easily pair with Zama-C to force it out due to no tera.

Its good to note that it also now has STAB heavy slam (keep in mind its gonna be heavier than a LOT more because of the huge weight gain), and even more powerful body press when +4 body press from base Zama already beats most of it not all its main checks regardless.
 
With approval from my fellow National Dex Leaders, I will be conducting a survey independent from the more standard community survey.

Link to the survey : https://forms.fillout.com/t/9CxNJusBXfus

Survey Goals:
  • Analyze the hypothetical correlation between a player's relative level of success and their enjoyment of National Dex OU
  • Compare the enjoyment of National Dex OU between Ladder mains, Smogon Tournament mains, Team Tournament mains, and Room Tournament mains.
Survey Notes:
  • Timeframe: Post-Roaring Moon unban
  • You will not be asked questions related to the healthiness of any Pokemon or mechanics.
  • You will not be asked questions related to competency or skill.
  • You will be asked questions related to avenues used to play National Dex OU.
  • You will be asked questions related to enjoyment of National Dex OU.
  • Questions are hidden/shown based on what forms of identification are shared.
  • There are 7 required questions, 14 questions overall.
  • At most the following information will be gathered: Ladder Records, Team Tournament Records, Circuit Tournament Records, Room Tournament Records.
  • Accounts shared will not be made public for whatever reason.
  • Deadline 2 weeks (Tuesday, May 13th 11:59pm GMT -4)
Link to the survey again : https://forms.fillout.com/t/9CxNJusBXfus
 
1746079688669.png

this is what it takes to make a vr box bro im not even halfway done
once i finish this tho my teambuilding process will be genuinely so much easier
 
Amani said:
Thoughts on Mega diancie in this metagame?
Click to expand...
Absolutely amazing breaker. Really hard to wall, especially if you don’t run rocks. Also you can swap Power Gem out for Diamond Storm to better hit special walls. You need to out speed it or tank a hit to ko it. Obviously a lot of mons can do these two things, but if you know how to play around this(which isn’t hard) Mega Diancie is great. Also it 6-0s sun.
 
Comett7778 said:
Absolutely amazing breaker. Really hard to wall, especially if you don’t run rocks. Also you can swap Power Gem out for Diamond Storm to better hit special walls. You need to out speed it or tank a hit to ko it. Obviously a lot of mons can do these two things, but if you know how to play around this(which isn’t hard) Mega Diancie is great. Also it 6-0s sun.
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Alr thanks I’ll try building around it at some point
 
What's the drawback to just dropping a bit of spdef on Ghold to outspeed Glisc?
I mean, you still check Lele just fine with just 252 HP and a bit of spdef, so I don't really know why Ghold sets don't speedcreep to 227.
 
"Ban gholdengo"
:Gholdengo: has 4 sets

Np Z (steel/fight)

Twave Hex

Np Pshock (rare but it exists)

Scarfed (rare but it exists)
Click to expand...

Arguements:

The sets that are the most broken (imo) is the Z sets and Twave hex. These Z sets do not have any walls, the only real mon that can mitigate these sets is :assault-vest: :alomomola: . Even then :assault-vest: :alomomola: needs a partner that can kill dengo such as :great-tusk: :weavile: :kingambi: . These mons need :assault-vest: :alomomola: to successfully beat dengo because they fear the focus blast or make it rain snipe.Would be checks such as :clodsire: after a little chip by hazzards or an atk can then be sniped by :gholdengo: using MIR and then killed by a Steel z.

:gholdengo: s best pairing (imo) is :hisuian-samurott: which provides spikes. These hazzards can then help :gholdengo: lbreak through any team. Therefore mons that can switch in to :gholdengo: such as :assault-vest: :alomomola: can no longer switch in continuesly as they will take lots of damage from hazzards.

In short. :gholdengo: abuses z to such an extreme extent that nothing can safely stop it. The :gholdengo: player can also use the bait of nplot to try and snipe the mons that can rkill it. :Gholdengo: can also abuse hazzard stack to kill the mons that would be able to switch in to it. Therefore :gholdengo: with the right partners can never be walled.
Click to expand...


Arguements for the :gholdengo: side that i've heard:

I've heard people say that :gholdengo: can't run all of these sets and that these sets have a counter for each of them. However at the start of the game, you won't know what set they are using, normally you could scout the set with a protect or a switch. However the :Gholdengo: player can use this oppurtunity to setup another nplot or twave. Not to mention to wall of these sets you'd need to run multiple different mons.

Another arguement i've heard people say is that :gholdengo: has bad speed and can easily be rkilled. While this is true, they are missing the main point of my arguement. That being although the mon can rkill :gholdengo:, it cannot switch in safely as it fears a snipe.
Click to expand...
 
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