Announcement National Dex Monotype Suspect #3: Ignite (Ogerpon-Hearthflame)

[style.css]

​

Suspect Test Reasoning
Ever since Baxcalibur's ban, winter storms have ceased, giving way to sunshine. A lot of it. Probably too much, especially if we check the Semifinals/Finals replays in NDPL. The reason? Ogerpon-H using her Ivy Cudgel to beat the metagame down to submission.

When Ogerpon-H dons her Heartflame mask, she obtains Fire-type STAB on Ivy Cudgel. With Mold Breaker, Grass-Fire coverage becomes extremely hard to wall, as she easily OHKOes Heatran and Mega Venusaur at +2. Besides, she already hits all of the common walls found in National Dex Monotype like Gliscor, Slowbro, Corviknight, and Porygon2 for at least neutral damage. Defensive answers that do resist Ogerpon-H's STABs also falter due to her good coverage; After a Swords Dance, Skeledirge gets overwhelmed if using Knock Off, Dragonite is outright OHKO'ed by Play Rough, and Power Whip OHKO'es Toxapex after minimal chip damage. Due to her access to a recovery move in Horn Leech, she can quickly spiral out of control against Ground and Water teams, as any attempts of residual damage can be quickly undone. She also has access to funny moves like Taunt and Encore, which open up more setup opportunities, and even Spikes if you want to take advantage of the switches she makes. Ogerpon-H also sits at a favorable speed tier, outpacing or speed-tying with potential offensive answers in Landorus, Iron Moth, Gengar, and Mega Diancie. She can even use Trailblaze, which, due to her STAB and Ogerpon-H's 1.2x boost to all her moves, hurts a lot, to outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame and most of the common Choice Scarf users, including Enamorus, Iron Treads, and Tapu Lele, and speedtie with premium Choice Scarf users like Latias and Gengar. Ogerpon-H's bulk cannot be understated either, as she shrugs off attempts at revenge-killing, living Choice Scarf Iron Treads Stone Edge, Great Tusk's Close Combat, Latios' Draco Meteor, Tapu Lele's Psychic, and Alolan Raichu's Psychium Z-boosted Psychic.

Ogerpon-H's Fire-typing also shields her from potential Will-o-Wisps and Scald burns from Mega Sableye and Toxapex, making her attacks not easily dampened. Aside from the sheer strength of Ogerpon-H, she also has access to far better team support in Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Whimsicott on Grass teams, and better teammates to wallbreak alongside on Blacephalon, Mega Charizard-X, and Victini in Fire teams. This has caused players to use niche checks such as Stakataka and Sludge Wave Choice Scarf Landorus.

Not all is jolly for Ogerpon-H, however. A Fire-typing isn't that ideal due to being prone to being heavily chipped by Stealth Rocks, and both of the types she resides in have trouble keeping these away. It's also notable that Ogerpon-H has to go out of her way to use Knock Off, Play Rough, or one of her status moves to threaten the aforementioned Skeledirge and Dragonite, or to fully beat Toxapex without resorting to Power Whip. Ogerpon-H would prefer to be able to Swords Dance before going ham on the opposing team, as though she's strong, she's not strong enough to OHKO Great Tusk, Mega Lopunny, and Landorus. She also struggles to find setup scenarios on more offensive types, and most types have access to something that can heavily damage Ogerpon, for instance, Sneasler, Choice Scarf Greninja, Tornadus-T, and Crobat.

Because of these reasons, the NDM council thought that this suspect test would be the most appropriate to improve the metagame in preparation for NDFL and MWP.

Suspect Test Information

• This suspect test will count towards the new tiering contributor badge!
  
• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 40 games played.
• Ogerpon-Hearthflame will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from National Dex Monotype.
• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDMS2O. An example name would be NDMS2O Ogerpon
• You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, will be allowed on the National Dex Monotype ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
• This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until Friday, December 1st @ 11:59 PM EST (GMT-5).

Suspect Test Rules

• You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
• No uninformed one liners or posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
• No discussion on the suspect test process.
• Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
• If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.

If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Mateeus. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this on the ladder. Thank you!

 

[TTK]

Alright, another TTK suspect post run. Yeah... At this current time, I'm certainly voting no ban and idk whether I'll shift to the other side but I do see some arguments but lemme explain why i'm no ban.

I think Ogerpon is most hindered by the types that it's available on, which limit how threatening it can really be. Starting off with Fire, it's not particularly in the greatest position in the metagame atm imo. It's very easy to pressure the type with the upper half types like Dragon, Electric, Flying and Ground to give some examples and it never really finds much opportunity to set up vs them. Grass is a bit better thanks to Grass' defensive backbones giving you momentum to switch in your defensive threats and play around to find scenarios for Ogerpon to get in but Grass again, has its issues of matchups into the top types. I'll give this replay here to show Ogerpon isn't even this instant game winning pokemon or some unhealthy presence that requires most of the builder consideration. This is Ground btw winning against 1700s Grass and Ogerpon could not even 2HKO Hippowdon if it lacks Power Whip. I was even running Sandy Shocks because this is a teambuild workshop team which I had to use mega chomp + sandy. I could've had a Landorus-T and Ogerpon would've been sufficiently checked.

This leads onto my second point, its moves. Ogerpon is always going to be SD + Ivy Cudgel, followed by Grass STAB and a coverage option, typically Play Rough or Knock Off, or even yet a utility option in Taunt or Substitute. All of these have their own issues that need addressing. If it is not Trailblaze, it gets revenge killed since 110 speed is power crept the hell out of in gen 9 and if it's Trailblaze, then you lack your stronger Grass move so Toxapex just hazes on you, if you lack a coverage option and go Taunt or Substitute, your STABs are being walled by any Fire or Dragon type pokemon. Now you could say to me "Fire doesn't matter, Grass is losing that mu anyway and Dragon is a similar fate depending on comp" and while that's correct, the rest of the type board has bulky pokemon that are common that can at least chip Ogerpon down and leave its teammates to revenge kill. Mandibuzz Foul Play is OHKOing at +2, p2 Foul Play is OHKOing at +2 + Ditto can copy Ogerpon. Offensive Lando-T can take +1 hits then OHKO back with Z-Fly for some examples.

If we look back at our most recent ban, Baxcalibur, that mon was banned because it had very easy setup opportunity on ice and to a lesser extent on Dragon thanks to Shed Tail, it also did a lot of damage, similar to Ogerpon after a boost but could also switch things up with DD or SD and choiced and was also impossible to revenge kill under veil + snow. Now we look at Ogerpon, it doesn't have the bulk or defensive typing of Bax, only has 1 set with varying movepool switchups with the only one being hard to handle is SD Trailblaze, cannot run boots to offset taking 25% min from hazards (no spikes) and whose speed tier can be wholly managed in a tier with mons like Meowscarada, Greninja and Sneasler.

Ogerpon is certainly a very good pokemon in the metagame, I appreciate the increased viability it's given to Grass but it's never really felt overwhelming for most types and even the types that don't appreciate it, with the only one being Steel, mentioning the Stakataka point I don't feel is too strong because going by mono tiering philosophy, "Ogerpon 6-0ing Steel" isn't that strong of an argument (look back to pre HOME SV Mono Dondozo discussion regarding it 6-0ing Bug) and it can look dicey for Poison if it gets a SD but again, Ogerpon cannot do everything in its arsenal, if it lacks Power Whip, Pex is hazing it + Scarf Sneasler is a good set on the type that is good regardless of Ogerpon existing.

 

[galaxystudios]

I don't have the type portfolio to know how well she matches up against the type chart, but I can share my own experiences.
For me, she's merely annoying. Regieleki two shots and outspeeds her at +1, while Iron Hands lives everything short of +2 Ivy Cudgel in sun and always oneshots. Zapdos is technically a check since it barely lives Ivy Cudgel from full, while I have one more Pokemon that outspeeds and oneshots.

I probably won't participate in this test.

 

[Big Chungus irl]

My problem with Hearthflame is pretty much only the fact that steel has no reliable answer to it. I am not yet sure wether this is enough to warrant a ban but that is my primary problem with it. It just feels unfair.

 

[Ninjamage]

I will be voting NO BAN. I will be providing my outlook on it as a Grass main, I can't speak to the points made about any matchups that involve Hearthflame's use on Fire.

The set I used to get reqs was SD, Ivy Cudgel, Horn Leech, and Play Rough. During my 43 battles, I only got an SD up probably 7-8 times. It's not incredibly easy to set up with because it's relatively frail and can get revenged by any scarfer/faster mon. TTK already laid out points I agree with about its moveset that I agree with, I won't rehash them here.

Grass's lack of reliable hazard removal and Heartflame's rocks weakness and lack of held item is also of note. If one decides to run Whimsicott or Brambleghast for removal on Grass, they are likely giving up a valuable Cradily slot or Breloom slot. Cradily is your special fire move check and valuable member of the classic Grass defensive core, and Breloom is Breloom we all know what kind of damage it can do if not checked properly. My point here is that even if you try to support Hearthflame from hazards pressure, you are sacrificing a valuable team slot that hurts team composition in other ways. I don't think it's the best or most important mon on Grass - in fact I think it's 4th behind MVenu, Ferrothorn, and Meowscarada.

I think the only type that really has no answer for Hearthflame is Steel, and even then I don't think it's incredibly overwhelming. Heatran generally forces it out to the point it can start to resemble the Gen 7 Grass vs Psychic matchup where Decidueye and Victini would trade kills until someone won. Ability Shield Heatran is also an option, but very niche and not common enough (I think) to really count in an argument. I think too much of the current discussion at the moment is revolving around the Grass/Steel matchup. Even if Hearthflame 6-0d Steel (it has the potential to but it's not automatic), that's not a good argument for a ban. Every type has a Pokemon with the potential to 6-0 them. That is the nature of Monotype. I urge everyone to think about other matchups and realize that while Hearthflame is the strong offensive option that Grass has wanted for generations, it's not oppressive.

 

[Super Computer]

Im voting NO BAN for Ogerpon-H, while it can be the best of the Ogerpons by far if it can get into the right spot its held back due to its fragility despite its decent type combination defensively, Grass/Fire is quite an average combo bosting 3 weaknesses and 4 resistances, both sides having a couple semi-common types

While yes Steel mostly has almost no counterplay things like Heatran or Choice Scarfed mons can threaten it out fairly easily (especially if it isnt running trailblaze for speed boost), along with the fact Ogerpon has trouble switching into the field in the first place due to its 80/84/96 bulk which is very mediocre. Usually Ogerpon has to either switch in after something dies or try to switch in on either a weak or resisted hit which isn't common due to Grass/Fire having little resistances and most Pokémon in Monotype being able to hit decently hard.

Hearthflame is definitely a good form no doubts about it, however it just isn't that oppressive as people think, even as a Steel main I can agree that despite this Pokemon hard countering my team it's still well balanced and can have some counterplay

 

[Ogerpon Enjoyer]

I, as my name would imply, am voting NO BAN for Ogerpon-Hearthflame. Given that we already have the viewpoint of two Grass users' experiences with the mon, I chose to go the fire route for the sake of the suspect.

As opposed to grass being lacking in terms of hazard removal as pointed out by Ninjamage, Fire has a good amount of removal in Torkoal, Moltres, and Volcanion. Despite this, Fire's defensive cores are far weaker than grass's. Without a good combinations of defensive typings and stats and a lack of recovery for torkoal, your removal tends to be short lived, which makes the lack of an item slot a consider drawback to the mon. I chose to run it as a setup sweeper to match well into fire's weaknesses of Ground, Rock, and Water using the standard move set SD, cudgel, horn leech, with 4th move trailblaze. In games where I was not allowed to keep hazard control up, The mediocre defensive stats left almost no leeway for the required setup. On another hand, the base 110 speed tier has been crept to seem almost average. So once again, the lack of a held item renders it vulnerable to speed ties and opposing scarfers since it isn't allowed to compete against.

In terms of type matchups, it shone best versus ground, water, and steel. That being said, it was by no means my best tool for any matchup aside from steel, which was already heavily in the type's favor. Versus Steel and Grass teams it was mostly braindead clicking ivy cudgel, but without sun it does miss out on the most important one hit knockouts without a critical hit. In all honesty its comparable to Scorching sands Zard Y versus steel, with Zard-y picking up more ko's on average but less prediction necessary. Versus both water and ground, it was a powerful tool for the matchups, but both rain and sand allow for weather based speed abilities to force it out reliably, it doesn't get to shine unless you can deny the opposing weather. Rock is honestly a bit iffy of a matchup, speed tying with both Ogerpon-Cornerstone and Diancie-Mega makes your wincon into winning a one or two coinflips (cinderace is always better for this one).

Overall, It made the winning matchups a bit more oppressive and losing matchups more manageable. Never once has it been a "Click one move and win" scenario. Without both a good defensive core to properly support it and hazard removal to enable free switching, Ogerpon-Hearthflame will never really have that menacing presence it can in other tiers.

 

[UNBR3AKABLE]

At this time I will be voting for Ogerpon-Hearthflame to be banned. I could talk about its stats, good typing, awesome movepool, etc, but I think most of us already understand its a really good mon. However, these things alone do not make it ban worthy. There is another aspect of this mon that has not been talked about as much, at least not in depth, and it is the thing that I personally feel puts Ogerpon H over the top. I am referring here to its ability, Mold breaker. (Not Mold breaker itself, but the combination of Mold breaker & Ogerpon H)

I don’t think the average player, or even more experienced players for that matter, fully understand just how many abilities and mons are impacted by Mold breaker on a mon such as this. So, in this post, I will be giving a list of abilities, along with some examples of mons who have said ability, in order to demonstrate just how much Ogerpon H impacts not only ladder, but tournament play as well.

Mold breaker ignores the following…

Disguise - Mimikyu - Allows Ogerpon H to hit through the disguise, possibly OHKO’ing in sun or if boosted

Flash fire - Heatran, Centiskorch - this is probably the one that has gotten the most attention. Flash fire normally shields the mon from fire attacks, which is nullified by Mold breaker. This is the reason why Ogerpon now beats heatran. Another example would be Centiskorch (for bug), and while it might be far less common, it still bypasses the immunity nonetheless

Fluffy - Bewear - This means that Bewear no longer takes half damage from contact moves (while Ivy cudgel is not a contact move, both horn leech and play rough are)

Heatproof - Sinistcha, Bronzong - Removes fire resist

Magic bounce - Mega Sableye, Hatterene - This means you can both taunt + encore, or even set spikes against magic bounce mons

Multiscale - Dragonite - Normally, Dragonite would guarantee survive a +2 play rough (assuming no crit) while protected by multiscale. With mold breaker a +2 play rough automatically OHKO’s

Sap Sipper - Azumarill - Bypasses the grass immunity and single handedly destroys stall water (and most stall teams in general)

Sturdy - Forretress, Skarmory, Magnezone, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, among others - Allows Ogerpon Hearthflame to OHKO through sturdy, putting increased pressure onto the team, and potentially stopping a chance to rapid spin, whirlwind, spread status, or deal damage to make the match up more manageable for the rest of the team

Thick Fat - Mega Venusaur, Mamoswine - Nullifies damage reduction to fire attacks (Ivy cudgel)

Unaware - Clodsire, Skeledirge - Nullifies unaware so that you can sweep with swords dance

Water bubble - Araquanid - Ignores Araquanids fire resistance


There are many more mons+ abilities affected by Mold breaker. This list is just to give a bit more of an idea as to the drastic effect of Ogerpon H on a large portion of our meta game. Once again, my issue is not with mold breaker itself, rather the unique combination of Mold breaker on this specific mon. The reason is because many of these situations wouldn’t matter, if said mon had a different typing, role, and coverage options. (For example, voiding flash fire, thick fat & Heatproof) only has an impact if the mon actually has and runs fire moves) This is why I believe Mold breaker itself SHOULD be allowed, as it is not always OP. But i think I have shown sufficient examples here to show just how game changing it is when on a mon like Ogerpon H.


One final point I would like to make is in regards to the item. I have heard many people say things such as “has no item”, or “cant hold an item”. This isnt exactly true, and can be a bit misleading. The player cannot “choose” the item, but that is not the same thing as not having one. In fact, it actually has a quite good one. Not only does the mask give the fire/grass typing, but it also boosts the power of EVERY one of Ogerpon H’s attacks, by 20%. This is almost (not quite) like that of a life orb, except there is no recoil or otherwise drawback. This is quite significant.

Finally, shoutout to everyone else who has commented on this thread. While we may not agree about everything, I still appreciate your contribution to the discussion

⁃ Fixzation

 

[Scrulp]

Speaking as a Bug player, my sentiments echo UNBR3AKABLE's. There are a lot of Fire-weak teams that have to rely on abilities to lessen Fire damage, given the high BP fire attacks can reach. Every Bug team I've seen on the ladder has an Araquanid, including mine. Every Steel team has a Heatran, every Grass team has a Mega Venusaur. The monotype format is very near reliant on abilities to negate weaknesses that otherwise a team is going to share. Ogerpon-H's good coverage and use of Mold Breaker mean there are essentially no switch-ins.

 

[FadedCharm]

Hey everyone! Back again for another suspect test. I will being voting BAN on ogerpon. Ogerpon is one of the most constraining mons in the builder out right now. With its mold breaker ability and plethora of team support on both fire and grass, there’s nothing that it can’t virtually do. It’s the premier wallbreaker on both types. It’s ability to almost effortlessly set up in every type MU is something that can’t be soffed at. Some may say that its ability to wall break is limited to the set it runs such as trailblaze sets only being able to run a stab + coverage option/ or dual stabs. None of which limit ogerpon at all considering that fire/grass coverage is incredible into the tier, only being walled by dragon (hint dragons still take considerable damage by it). One thing that must be taken into consideration is that it has the team support to get past its limited defensive responses. All unaware mons are forced into ability shield (most unaware mons have a losing MU into it anyways). A prime example of this is skelridge +2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 348-410 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Skelridge can’t 1v1 ogerpon if its running knock off and every other prominent unaware user loses the 1v1 with or without ability shield (outside of dondozo which fears power whip 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ability Shield Dondozo: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

I’m gonna a type by type run down of what ogerpon does in every single MU for both types.

Dead on arrival= It or a teammate completely skew the match up in its favor that its not worth making this post any longer!

Fire

Psychic: Everything is 2 hit ko’d/ ohko’d by stabs or knock off. Mega gallade has to win the speed tie (non= trailblaze sets) to have a roll of an ohko with close combat. If ogerpon gets at +2 the entire type folds. Another thing to consider is that ogerpon can easily open the type up to blacephalon/volcarona and vice versa. I would consider this dead on arrival. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexmonotype-732106 seen in this game the combination of heatran and volcarona allowed ogerpon to clean the game up end game uncontested.

Dark: Play rough + fire stab wipes this type off the map. Relying on sucker punch from certain mons ( ogerpon is bulky enough to not drop to priority). They are many mons that ogerpon can set up on such as meowsarda, greninja sets not running gunk shot, opens the type up to teammates and vice versa.

Steel: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Grass: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Water: Toxapex can’t switch in it has taken any chip damage at +2. Power whip variants have a chance to ohko at +2 with stealth rocks. Rain is always difficult into fire, with hurricane peliper. However, ogerpon can run trailblaze + power whip to have a very favorable roll to ohko peliper. The type pretty much folds once those reliable checks are slightly chipped everything becomes a nightmare.

Poison: Sneasler vs the world and the world wins! Sneasler can’t switch in 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasler: 280-331 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO. However if its scarf it can always force it out after something is sacked. Crobat can force It out but this is a case of always inviting in a teammate that removes counterplay to ogerpon. Such as heatran, victini (major threat to this type), cinderace (zen headbutt variants). Despite poison having a type advantage over ogerpon, it has enough bulk to not worried about the lack luster offensive presence poison has.

Ground: Sandless variants fear ogerpon since there isn’t many things that directly ohko without being 1 hit ko’d. Sand variants always give fire a rather rough time. However, ogerpon still does a lot of things for this MU. Threatening everything not scarfed/sand rushed. Landorus can’t switch in without being 2 hit ko’d. Bloodmoon fears powerwhip, especially if its not phys defense invested. It also can’t switch in to horn leech and is ohko’d after a swords dance. 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. Hippodown has a slight chance of getting ohko’d at +2 with horn leech. +2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 356-422 (84.7 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. Everything else outright loses to ogerpon if not scarfed/sand rushed especially if chipped ( which in this MU is not hard to do for fire).

Flying: Non-moltres variants fold if not running dual wing beat dragonite ( who also gets deal with by the exact same mon). Scarfers on this type lose to either molt, torandus’T can’t check if its not hdb or lands a flying move. Getting to +2 with on this type is fairly easy since ogerpon itself forces a lot of switches. Mega aerodactyl at +1 can sweep the entire type though (assuming they aren’t running air ballon heatran)

Fairy: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Dragon: Play rough can counter sweep the type, but this is fire’s worst match up.

Ice: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Fighting: Swords dance + play rough can also counter sweep this type fairly easy/stabs are still highly threatening fire has access to victini to ensure if ogerpon can’t do it, victini can.

Bug: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Ghost: Dead on arrival to knock off variants.

Rock: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Normal: Playing around ditto is easy and there’s nothing that really stops ogerpon outside of strapator. Everything on normal is highly threatened.

Fire: Resists both stabs but knock off still helps it be useful and make progress in this mirror match.

Electric: 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 217-256 (72 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This match always can go either way, ogerpon makes this more fire favored due to rotom-W no longer be a safe fire switch in.

Grass-

Psychic: Dead on arrival (meowscarda + ogerpon), Next

Dark: Dead on arrival, Next

Flying: outclassed by ogerpon-rock in this MU. Hearthflame can’t position as easy with grass as it can with fire.

Water: Dead on arrival, LOL

Ground: Dead on arrival, grass has much better support for this MU then fire does.

Dragon: Meowscarda vs the world and ogerpon is simply a supporting character.

Fire: You LOSE LOL

Ice: Ogerpon and mega venasuar make this MU very winnable for grass. Especially with ogerpon ignoring the ice/ground of your choice’s thick fat.

Normal: You LOSE LOL

Fighting: Meowscarda and ogerpon make a lot of progress with this type. I would say this is very neutral depending on the fighting comp.

Electric: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Poison: Certainly hard MU for grass but positioning with ogerpon can make or break this MU along with celebi.

Rock: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Fairy: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Steel: Dead on arrival, NEXT!

Bug: You still LOSE

Ghost: You can win with an suboptimal set for the type but I’m gonna consider this a, You still Lose .

Ogerpon can virtually shape up any match it wants to on both types with the plentiful support it has. There’s nothing quite as overpowering as this mon in the tier. I don’t think we can ignore the great impact this mon has on building and the fact that most of the tier folds to it. That is why I will be voting ban.

 

[Khahara]

Hihi, I'm gonna be voting no ban on this one, because too much holds Hearthflame back for a ban to reasonably be warranted. She's certainly an offensive threat to be considered when teambuilding, and definitely makes some matchups rather lopsided, but she's inherently limited by both the types she's on and not being able to do everything at once. She's a perfect example of broken in theory but not in practice.

Hearthflame does tear up just about every type on paper, since Grass-Fire coverage is already pretty widespread in what it can hit, and her Fire coverage in particular is very threatening to a lot of types, especially those that are only neutral or weak to Fire. Adding additional coverage through Knock Off or Play Rough also helps in this regard. However, Hearthflame has extreme 4 moveslot syndrome, because every move she can run covers a critical weakness the others can't. TTK has already covered the point better than I can, but Oger can't run everything she needs to run through the entire metagame in the way that people keep attributing to her.

Hearthflame is also kinda squishy, which isn't good for a mon that's so setup reliant. She needs a Swords Dance for power and, more than likely, a Trailblaze to beat out most common scarfers, and maybe even two depending on the speed of the scarfer. Given her not great defensive typing and middling bulk, she gets easily threatened out and forced to switch, which is absolutely a detriment for reasons I'll explain in a bit. Not being able to hold an item also means that she lacks safe switch-in opportunities afforded from HDB, which is even more pertinent when we consider that her types' hazard clearing options range from middling to bad, nor does she get immediate speed and power afforded via a scarf or band (which would also open up her coverage more). Speaking of, I think that her supporting options are nowhere near as strong as those afforded to other banned mons, especially with the recent Bax ban. Nothing really supplements her bulk in the way that screens could, which is part of why Bax was such a nightmare, nor can they offer her sufficient windows to switch in (especially Fire, which lacks real defensive backbone to support her). Grass struggles with keeping hazards clear, which bites Hearthflame in the rear consistently. In short, she's on a constant timer, and she often can't get momentum behind her to just outright sweep. That being said, she's still a good mon, particularly with wallbreaking and late game cleaning, but she's not ban worthy.

Being honest, I think a lot of the clamor around people asking for the ban is people who like to play types weak to Fire getting frustrated with it, which I understand, given that Mold Breaker helps remove a lot of those type's common ways of dealing with powerful Fire STAB. However, I would argue that Oger just skews already unfavorable matchups even more rather than making Grass and Fire top tier types, and there's plenty of mons that do this already. Urshifu-R, Meowscarada, Mega Diancie, Kommo-o, and Regieleki are examples that come to mind of mons that have the same effect, but they're not on the chopping block. At the end of the day, Oger is a threat that Fire weak types will have to consider, but it's not impossible to plan or play around.

 

[maroon]

Ogerpon-H is now banned from National Dex Monotype! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-monotype-3-ogerpon-h.3732076/post-9880982