Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 11: Robot Rock

[astralydia]

Hello everyone, National Dex is proceeding with its 11th suspect test: Magearna! Magearna has been a huge point of controversy ever since National Dex began, with many players complaining about its ability to just steal games from opponents through its various Shift Gear sets and access to Soul-Heart, allowing it to snowball from a single incorrect move in the right matchups. Recently, there has been more and more pushing for a Magearna suspect test throughout the community, and the council finally believes it is time to proceed through with a suspect test.

Reasoning

Magearna's primary set is its Choice Specs set, a wallbreaker with a practically unblockable Volt Switch and ability to Trick its Specs onto an unsuspecting target to cripple it, further augmenting its ability to pivot around the opposing team. In the recent metagame, this has started to become more common, and due to its lack of true counters, has been causing major issues for defensive cores, often times forcing suboptimal Pokemon like Slowking-Galar to be slotted onto teams due to the lack of consistent answers. Other checks such as Mega Scizor can work; but are often worn down by Volt Switch in longer games and can easily get taken out by the Magearna player, removing a potential Fleur Cannon roadblock.

Specs is not all there is to Magearna, and there is another set that severely constrains forms of counterplay to Magearna, although this lies in offensive counterplay rather than defensive - the Draining Kiss + Stored Power sets are incredibly effective at punishing incorrect predictions as to what Magearna may be likely to do, as when given a free turn, are likely to spiral very quickly due to Stored Power scaling very well with Magearna's setup moves, as well as its ability to utilize Weakness Policy under Screens, something that yet further boosts Stored Power to levels that not even the bulkiest of steels can properly stomach. This makes the amount of safe checks rather restrictive to Magearna already, especially given that the other resists to Magearna's Stored Power antics are prime targets for Draining Kiss, something that makes Magearna considerably harder to wear down even with regards to its natural bulk.

Whilst the Draining Kiss + Stored Power and Choice Specs sets are arguably decently handleable on their own, when considering these two and the additional Shift Gear + 3 Attacks sets that can pop up unexpectedly, such as Fightinium Z and Life Orb + Electro Ball, the lines between being able to see a generic SG set, Double Dance and Specs start to become blurry, and due to their ability to surprisingly fit on a variety of teambuilds, the set often cannot be completely determined from preview and can easily lead the opponent into misplaying into one of the other sets, losing at the very least a mon, and sometimes can cost the entire game.

Though these three aspects may make Magearna a headache in the builder, it is not uncounterable, and Pokemon like Heatran, Toxapex, Mega Scizor, Gastrodon, Excadrill and Blissey are capable of severely constricting what Magearna's options are to punish switches. Additionally, the rise of certain Choice Scarfers like Jirachi and Victini are also valid counterplay options to Magearna, and common Steel and Ground types like Landorus-Therian, Gliscor and Ferrothorn are capable of pivoting into Magearna to attempt to scout what it may do.

Suspect Test Information

• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, doing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
• minimum games needed

  GXE	minimum games
  80	50
  80.2	49
  80.4	48
  80.6	47
  80.8	46
  81	45
  81.2	44
  81.4	43
  81.6	42
  81.8	41
  82	40
  82.2	39
  82.4	38
  82.6	37
  82.8	36
  83	35
  83.2	34
  83.4	33
  83.6	32
  83.8	31
  84	30

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NXMAG. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXMAG Chazm.
• You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Magearna, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
• This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until April the 17th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.

 

[ironwater]

I played a bit on the Natdex ladder during Cinderace suspect test and Magearna was a mon I faced mutliple times so I'll give my opinion on it.

I think the biggest issue with Magearna is its versatility. This is because even if each set has its answers, in a lot of situation you have to guess which set you're facing with the risk of losing the mon (or maybe the game) if you guess wrong.

The two main variants are the Choice specs one the setup version. The access to Trick in Gen8 is huge for Specs Magearna because almost all of its defensive counters don't like getting tricked. Blissey for instance cannot be a reliable switch-in as you're one Trick away of losing most of your utility. Moreover, Magearna also has a strong Volt Switch that not only allows him to beat a lot of bulky water types but can also be used to force in defensive answer and weaken them without letting them an opportunity to heal. For instance mega Scizor is a pretty reliable answer to Fleur Cannon but will be criple down by repeated Volt Switch into something that force him out. There's still some good answers to Specs Magearna and the best one is probably Assault Vest G-Slowking. However, these answers are usually not the best way to deal with the setup version.

Speaking about the setup sets, they make Magearna extremely threatning because it is able to boost its offense, defense and speed. Moreover, thanks to its Ability Soul-Heart, it can snowball through a lot of teams extremely easily. Mons like Heatran or other bulky Steel types may be able to stop him even if some Magearna use Aurasphere to deal with Steel Types. Another issue is that Magearna can juste chose to run a Z-move to beat its specific counter in the opposing team and then freely sweep the remaining mons. Z-moves coupled with a move that boosts Magearna speed namely Shift Gear and Magearna Ability is one of the deadliest combo in the tier. On top of that, Magearna has a great offensive movepool with a lot of coverage options and thus is able to beat most of its check with the right set.

So to sum up a bit, I think that Magearna biggest issue is that you basically have to run two or three counters in your team if you really want to be safe against this mon as each set has to be handle differently and they all are extremely dangerous when you don't have any reliable answer. Thus, Magearna restricts teambuilding a lot and even good teams prepared to face it can be overwhelmed if the opposing Magearna is played well and with a good support. Of course counterplays exist and you can try to offensively deal with Magearna. Moreover, it cannot beat all its checks at the same time and so won't be impossible to deal with in each and every games. I still think however that it is a way to deadly weapon.

For all these reasons, I'm convinced that banning Magearna will help making the tier healthier.

Thanks for reading and good luck to everyone for reaching the reqs.

 

[Zobirisking]

Hey guys, I wanna explain why Magearna is way too much for this Metagame and should be banned from National Dex.

This Pokemon has so many sets, but 2 of them makes this Pokemon completely unhealthy and broken, and I wanna start with the Choise Specs set.
https://pokepast.es/2c52d2d43edb82b3
This set is so crazy, it makes a ton of damage with every move it uses and has 0 good switch ins. Every Pokemon that would be able to tank every move from Magearna, like Chansey and Blissey, can be tricked and get the Choise Specs, which will make them almost useless, or it can spam Volt Switch without any worrys. If you predict right with this set, you will easily get free kills, which is very easy. These Calcs will show Magearnas truth power:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 381-448 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 286-338 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

And here is a Replay that shows you how crazy this thing can be: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1259590964-i5oblvkt37gnix1o174s5c37g2z63zbpw

The next set, which is even more scary, is the Calm Mind + Shift Gear set. https://pokepast.es/35d6b4eee3021c1d
This thing is usually used on Hyper offense with Screens from Tapu Koko, Regieleki or Grimmsnarl. After Magearna has it's Screens, it can easily set up on almost every Pokemon and can start a sweep. You can't do a lot of damage if you don't hit it super effective, but you will trigger it's Weakness Policy if you do and then it is even more dangerous. Having 2 solid Pokemons against this is sometimes not enough. This happens if you hit it super effective:

+2 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 399-470 (111.7 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 309-364 (104 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 321-378 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

This Replay will show an Magearna sweeping with this set: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1259542781-88irg1mpb0qwhtz7rziffualwf3kyezpw

Magearna also has another set, which is pretty similar as the Calm Mind Shift Gear set, which is this: https://pokepast.es/ab3dfe499f813d20
This is an alternative set, which isn't used a lot, but it's very powerful too. This Replay can proof that:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1259569868-v508stow9s4zkuduckv7jlkwghss53zpw

Magearna also has the Shift Gear + 1 Z move sets. These sets are very good to surprise your opponent and they can kill 1 "Magearna counter" if you have the right Z move, for example Electricuim Z for mega Charizard y or Fightium Z for Heatran.

Magearna is a Pokemon that can have like 10 or even more sets, and unlike Heatran, Magearna doesn't have any hard counters or 100% checks. Every Pokemon that can beat 1 set, won't beat all the other sets too. This thing makes Teambuilding way too difficult and it can sweep way too easily, so please ban Magearna for the better of National Dex.
Thanks for reading and good luck with getting reqs.

 

[pannu]

Bit of a rushed post and not really as in depth as I want it to be due to me writing this on my phone, I'll probably rewrite some stuff whenever I get the opportunity to do so. Eitherway I wanted to discuss why I dont think Magearna is broken.

The main argument I hear when someone tells me magearna Is broken is that it has too many sets and that no single Pokemon beats all of them, however I don't think that this is what makes Magearna broken as it is somewhat of a non-issue that can be dealt with in the teambuilder.

Unlike most of the brokens in the tier Magearna doesnt adapt its sets to beat stuff it would usually lose to (like mega metagross starting to run toxic to beat slowbro or Spectrier running Normalium Z to beat hydreigon) instead it beats them due to all of the mons that beat one set losing to another, like Blissey sponging hits from specs but losing to kisspower, spdef tran beating kisspower but losing to fightinium Z or specs. You can run one mon to beat most of its sets and another to cover the set it loses to, and between those two youd beat Magearna. This is possible to do as every archetype has multiple checks to Magearna and using multiple of them wont entirely disrupt your team, an example would be running Mega Scizor and Amoonguss to beat Z sets and specs.

Beating Magearna isnt hard if you're prepared for it, which you should be. Now if there is something about Magearna I could consider making it banworthy its that you could argue that having to run two mons on one team just to beat Magearna makes it broken, trying to fit both a Check to specs variants and then another mon to cover 3a and Kisspower is very restraining in the builder considering how you have to fit in other roles on your team too, this is unhealthy in my opinion. I think it is banworthy but im on the fence about it, my mind might very well change during the time it takes me to reqs ladder, as of right now I think I will be voting ban but my opinion might change, it also has alot of positive traits In the meta like AV being excellent role compression on offense or it being amazing glue on fat balances with heal bell and pain split variants, but I wont go too in depth on that.

Tl;dr I dont think beating mage is impossible but Its restraint on the teambuilder might make it ban worthy.

 

[Senko]

I'll make my opinion on this robot (bunny? robot?) mon short and sweet: This thing needs to go.

Magearna possesses multitudes of sets, including Specs, Kisspower, SplitSwap, ShiftGear3A, CMSplit, etc, etc. Of these sets, as many people have realized, Specs and Kisspower are the main threats that this meta has seen.

Choice Specs Magearna fulfills a threatening role of dishing out massive damage with a STAB-boosted, 140 base power Fleur Cannon and strong coverage in Focus Blast, pivoting in and out with Volt Switch to get its teammates in safely, and crippling defensive Pokemon with Trick.

Kisspower utilizes a combination of Calm Mind and Shift Gear to raise its stats and sweep with Stored Power and Draining Kiss, which snowballs with Soul-Heart, increasing its Special Attack after every KO it lands. Its main function is on Hyper Offense, where it sweeps the opponent's team most times once the Steel-type is gone

Now, these sets are strong of course, but not game-breaking. Pokemon like Blissey can sponge hits from Specs and Steel-types like Heatran and Gyro Ball Ferrothorn can eat hits from Kisspower and KO it before dying. Packing a Steel-type and/or a fat blob is a pretty basic building role that almost every team packs, so normally, you wouldn't see a mon like Magearna be broken.

But, the real breaker for me is Magearna's ShiftGear3A (SG3A) set. Carrying a Z-move to punch-up a Thunderbolt or a Focus Blast with Electrium and Fightinium respectively, it can blow past the aforementioned checks that Specs and Kisspower (and most of its other less-offensively oriented sets) and also fulfill a fantastic role of destroying offenses with its boosted speed and natural bulk. Without a secondary check to Magearna's SG3A set, you risk trying to scout what set Magearna is carrying and immediately get overwhelmed, thinking it's either Specs or Kisspower. SG3A's particular main checks include Pokemon like Amoonguss and Gastrodon, but cannot handle eating hits from Kisspower and Specs. As such, SG3A forces players to carry two dedicated Magearna checks on a team, which is a restriction on teambuilding I believe is banworthy.

Good luck on everyone doing the suspect reqs and let's get this next bunny gone!

 

[theotherguytm]

So, uh Magearna.
Already a top-tier sweeper last gen, now with 2 even more potent sets than before that increases the "fun" of the guessing game from "Which Z-move is this Magearna carrying?" to "Am I about to lose my switch-in to Specs Fleur Cannon?"

I don't actually think even 2 slots is sufficient to contain Mag. Take the above example of Mega Scizor and Amoonguss.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 232-274 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 178-211 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
So I'll assume that it's Assault Vest Amoonguss. This duo can struggle with Shift Gear 3 Attacks sets a fair amount:
252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 160+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 120-142 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Amoonguss Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 84-100 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- 20.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor-Mega: 164-194 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor-Mega: 104-123 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So this means giving up a third teamslot to make sure you have something that revenge kills Magearna after a Shift Gear (and probably another one to make sure this core don't get wiped by Fire attackers lol). And guess what, that teamslot does not help you against the Defensive Double Dance or Specs sets. My definition of broken is as soon as you need two teamslots to reliably handle a Pokemon, it's probably broken as hell. And Magearna takes that above and beyond, since even if you switch in a Magearna answer, you have to run the risk that it's the wrong Magearna set entirely, and then your sweeper answer gets busted by Fleur or your Specs sink gets turned into setup bait. Its two main individual sets have too few reliable answers to afford this guessing game, and its ability to abuse its own checks is absurd.

The final straw of many that break the camel's back is Trick. Trick ensures that a Specs Magearna will put in work whichever matchup it runs into, turning what should be a matchup-seeking sweeper into probably the most consistent breaker in the entire tier that then doubles as a defensive answer to things once its Tricked its Specs for Lefties, Boots or an Assault Vest. Please get this mon out the tier ASAP.

 

[adem]

Hi, I, unlike a majority of users here am voting DNB on mag, because I think that personally, although it is a really strong and versatile mon, I have not found it ban worthy.

“Why would you think this adam? Are you have the stupid??? Bro if u vote mag to stay u have a problem“

Let me just say this here, if ace was still around, I would have 100% voted ban on mag, as it + ace combined put too much strain on the teambuilder, and make a lot of mons straight up unusable.

One argument for its banning was the fact that different sets had different checks, and thus, wad hard to fit all on a team. This was definitely the case pre ace ban, as spdef pex, amoong and slowking were quite unviable.

But now that ace is gone, a lot of these mons have started shinning again, for example , , spdef or scarf variants of , and mons being able to run spdef/mixed sets now such as . These mons are not at all niche, nor are they cripping to put in a team, and cores like + , + , + have been popping up quite frequently, and together check a majority, if not all mag sets.

Another argument was the fact that it had too many sets. and you didn’t know which one it was until it was too late, which i think isnt that strong of an argument, because generally you can tell what set it is based on the team. If its a HO team its gonna be Shift Gear, and you can scout which variant it is easily with the mons mentioned above. If its on a BO or Offense team, its almost always going to be either CM-Z (hswap/split), or AV. Furthermore, specifically the KissPower set, is in my opinion just a ladder killer, as it takes too long to setup, and to actually sweep requires proccing the WP, which more experienced players will know not to do, unless they have to.

The only Mag set which I think is borderline bannable is SGear Fight Z with BoltBeam, as it works really well on unprepared teams, but even then, its easily chipped+played around, and without screens is prone to a lot.

Thats all for me, I hope we all get to save the bunny!

 

[Avery]

Hi, I, unlike a majority of users here am voting DNB on mag, because I think that personally, although it is a really strong and versatile mon, I have not found it ban worthy.

“Why would you think this adam? Are you have the stupid??? Bro if u vote mag to stay u have a problem“

Let me just say this here, if ace was still around, I would have 100% voted ban on mag, as it + ace combined put too much strain on the teambuilder, and make a lot of mons straight up unusable.

One argument for its banning was the fact that different sets had different checks, and thus, wad hard to fit all on a team. This was definitely the case pre ace ban, as spdef pex, amoong and slowking were quite unviable.

But now that ace is gone, a lot of these mons have started shinning again, for example , , spdef or scarf variants of , and mons being able to run spdef/mixed sets now such as . These mons are not at all niche, nor are they cripping to put in a team, and cores like + , + , + have been popping up quite frequently, and together check a majority, if not all mag sets.

Another argument was the fact that it had too many sets. and you didn’t know which one it was until it was too late, which i think isnt that strong of an argument, because generally you can tell what set it is based on the team. If its a HO team its gonna be Shift Gear, and you can scout which variant it is easily with the mons mentioned above. If its on a BO or Offense team, its almost always going to be either CM-Z (hswap/split), or AV. Furthermore, specifically the KissPower set, is in my opinion just a ladder killer, as it takes too long to setup, and to actually sweep requires proccing the WP, which more experienced players will know not to do, unless they have to.

The only Mag set which I think is borderline bannable is SGear Fight Z with BoltBeam, as it works really well on unprepared teams, but even then, its easily chipped+played around, and without screens is prone to a lot.

Thats all for me, I hope we all get to save the bunny!

All of these cores do a great job at handling KissPower Magearna, which I will admit I do not think is all that good, as it is very overprepped for and frankly takes too long to get the ball rolling in most matchups in the current metagame. However, the issue with all the cores posted is that most, if not all of them, get danced on by Choice Specs Magearna. Sure, Amoonguss and Galarian Slowking are great switchins to Specs Fleur, but quite literally all of these cores are styled by Specs Volt Switch + a timely Focus Blast or two. The issue with Specs Magearna isn't just its devastating breaking power, but its unstoppable Volt Switch. From there, Magearna can just bring in a teammate to force out X Pokemon, preventing it from healing (in the case of Scizor / Blissey / Slowking), or Pursuit trapping it, breaking your core wide open. Shift Gear Z sets are also kinda dumb, as they hand pick their own counterplay, but I feel that the sheer power of Choice Specs, the almighty unblockable Volt Switch, and the ease other sets have to snowball heavily contribute to why Magearna should be banned, let alone the sheer versatility in sets, which has already been covered.

 

[adem]

All of these cores do a great job at handling KissPower Magearna, which I will admit I do not think is all that good, as it is very overprepped for and frankly takes too long to get the ball rolling in most matchups in the current metagame. However, the issue with all the cores posted is that most, if not all of them, get danced on by Choice Specs Magearna. Sure, Amoonguss and Galarian Slowking are great switchins to Specs Fleur, but quite literally all of these cores are styled by Specs Volt Switch + a timely Focus Blast or two. The issue with Specs Magearna isn't just its devastating breaking power, but its unstoppable Volt Switch. From there, Magearna can just bring in a teammate to force out X Pokemon, preventing it from healing (in the case of Scizor / Blissey / Slowking), or Pursuit trapping it, breaking your core wide open. Shift Gear Z sets are also kinda dumb, as they hand pick their own counterplay, but I feel that the sheer power of Choice Specs, the almighty unblockable Volt Switch, and the ease other sets have to snowball heavily contribute to why Magearna should be banned, let alone the sheer versatility in sets, which has already been covered.

I have to agree on the fact that SGear Z sets are dumb, but i feel like they might be more of a low ladder thing, and wont really work on higher ladder (through my testing) as HO itself is by itself hard to pull off, and more aggressive plays are made in order to keep it at bay. This is in my opinion its best offensive set though.

Specs sets i have found to be extremely scary when partnered with ace, but after ace ban, i have not really seen specs mag in action, and the times I have, it has struggles coming in+gets chipped really easily; but overally, I dont think i have seen enough of this set, thus, i cant really give my opinions on this set as of yet.

 

[Senko]

I have to agree on the fact that SGear Z sets are dumb, but i feel like they might be more of a low ladder thing, and wont really work on higher ladder (through my testing) as HO itself is by itself hard to pull off, and more aggressive plays are made in order to keep it at bay. This is in my opinion its best offensive set though.

Specs sets i have found to be extremely scary when partnered with ace, but after ace ban, i have not really seen specs mag in action, and the times I have, it has struggles coming in+gets chipped really easily; but overally, I dont think i have seen enough of this set, thus, i cant really give my opinions on this set as of yet.

As I pointed out in my opinion of Magearna, its ShiftGear3A sets are breaking factor considering they demand different checks from Specs (which i agree is the strongest set) and Kisspower, forcing players to carry two Magearna checks so they won't get 6-0d by one in particular. I don't think it's a low ladder thing since SG3A provide quite a good spot on offensive teams that needs a breaker and widespread coverage. I don't particularly think that it being a "low ladder" thing is relevant since the fact the set exists and viable, it still poses a problem to the meta at whole.

 

[adem]

As I pointed out in my opinion of Magearna, its ShiftGear3A sets are breaking factor considering they demand different checks from Specs (which i agree is the strongest set) and Kisspower, forcing players to carry two Magearna checks so they won't get 6-0d by one in particular. I don't think it's a low ladder thing since SG3A provide quite a good spot on offensive teams that needs a breaker and widespread coverage. I don't particularly think that it being a "low ladder" thing is relevant since the fact the set exists and viable, it still poses a problem to the meta at whole.

My bad if it came off that way, i didnt mean for it to sound like i was calling it a gimmick or anything, i meant that its harder to pull off at high ladder. About the point of carrying more than 1 mag check, mag checks are often very viable and common mons, and work really well with each other, therefore, checking it doesnt feel like such a hassle, as its checks are already commonplace and used, and you’re not hurting the team by using these mons, as they are already used normally.

 

[pulsar512b]

I think that Magearna is as broken here as it was in regular OU. While the general power level here is higher, it also has the option of z-moves now, which allows normal shift gear sets to get going far more effectively.

I was wondering if anyone had some HO I could use for suspect reqs, as I have had some difficulties with other teams

 

[LO Garchomp]

I think that Magearna is as broken here as it was in regular OU. While the general power level here is higher, it also has the option of z-moves now, which allows normal shift gear sets to get going far more effectively.

I was wondering if anyone had some HO I could use for suspect reqs, as I have had some difficulties with other teams

I got reqs with the sample rain team - it's old but still.. uhh.. fantastic. Rain always will be.

As for Magearna, I feel like I don't see as often as I should but every time that I do see it I have to worry about whatever Shift Gear shit I know it's gonna pull. I laddered with MPert who dealt with it easily but I look at every team and just watch as they would get rolled if my Ash-Gren was a Gear. I agree that the Draining Kiss is whack, it has never done anything I see. 3 Attacks is incredible and absolutely the best set. Specs is something that I see everyone referring to but I've never seen on the ladder. I don't know if I blow past Mag fast enough or if it's just not run but I've gotten two accs to 1600 at least and never seen the specs set.

I will be voting ban just because I think Magearna is the strongest threat the metagame has to offer and while there are checks to it - GalarKing, Heatran, etc. - the presence forces too much constraint on the builder to be healthy. I'm not one of the guys who's like "All mons that force you to build for them are broken", that's how the game is meant to be, but if something is so restraining that you consistently need it's own SPECIFIC check, sometimes even two, then it's too much.

We've got mons like Corvi and Toxapex that are good because they are blanket metagame checks but when it comes to Magearna you often have to specifically include a mon that cannot be snowballed against - like a GalarKing or a Blissey - simply because of Magearna's innate ability to come in, Shift on the switch, then fire off that Z or CM to get everything rolling, especially in a simplified game state.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Finally, after years of patience, my most-wanted suspect is finally here! I have sworn to myself that should Magearna ever get the suspect test, I would 100% get the voter reqs. After finally attaining those stupid reqs of 50 games with an 80% GXE, I have fulfilled my oath. I also apologize in advance for the very massive essay I’m about to type up regarding why this machine needs to go in the first place.

OVERVIEW:
Magearna has always been a prominent threat since Generation 7, where it was officially introduced. It had an amazing defensive typing, an amazing Sp. Atk stat, a great move-pool, and relatively good bulk. The mechanical doll had access to nifty set-up moves such as Shift Gear and Calm Mind, which only amplified its potential as a special sweeper. Its signature ability, Soul Heart, allowed it to accrue multiple Sp. Atk boosts throughout the battle, making it a force to be reckoned with. So, why wasn’t this banned in the last generation? First, let’s take a close look at why the machine was so good:

Typing
Magearna’s typing in Steel/Fairy was astoundingly good, granting it nine resistances and two immunities, and its only two weaknesses lying in Ground and Fire. While some might scoff at this typing as Klefki and Mawile, also Steel/Fairy, did not fare so well, one should note that Klefki wasn’t too great after the Prankster nerf and that Mega Mawile was actually an Uber in Generation 6. Don’t forget that Zacian-Crowned, another Steel/Fairy, was banned from Ubers, making it the second mon to currently occupy Anything Goes alongside Mega Rayquaza (third if one includes the Arceus ban in Generation 4).

Stats
The most notable stat of this machine would have to be the 130 in Sp. Atk. Sure, it’s no Mega Mewtwo Y, but the stat ties with other amazing OU special attackers such as Gengar, Magnezone, Latios, and Tapu Lele. What makes Magearna stand out from these attackers, however, is its surprisingly decent bulk, boasting 115 in both Defense and Sp. Def. The speed is not amazing, but Magearna has a few tricks up its miniscule arms . . .

Move-pool
This mechanical doll’s move-pool is insane. Aside from the ass-busting 140 STAB move that is Fleur Cannon, Magearna also has access to very good coverage such as Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Focus Blast. It also has access to some reliable set-up moves, remedying its mediocre speed with Shift Gear while boosting its Sp. Atk and Sp. Def with Calm Mind. All of this already made the mechanical doll quite a choice for special attackers.

Ability
But that’s not all. What made Magearna so nasty was undoubtedly its signature ability in Soul Heart. Soul Heart basically has implications of being a special version of Moxie, boosting the machine’s Sp. Atk stat when an opponent falls in battle. That’s a good way to look at it . . . had that been the true case. What I’m saying is that if the opponent (or ally in VGC) dies in any way, either to hazards, status, or simply screwed by Magearna, it gets the Sp. Atk boost. Soul Heart isn’t just a special Moxie; it’s better than that. The mechanical bitch doesn’t even have to get its hands dirty just to get that boost.

As strong as it was, Magearna was not without its flaws. Its typing, while great, did leave it weak to Ground and Fire. Landorus-Therian and Garchomp were two notable Ground types that checked the mechanical doll really well. Heatran was still popular during that era and was probably the machine’s worst nightmare, although it didn’t probably want to take an unexpected Focus Blast or Aura Sphere. Its lack of reliable recovery meant that switching into multiple times on hazards would eventually leave it prone to being finished off by mons it could have usually threatened, such as Ash-Greninja or Mega Alakazam (the latter being banned now, by the way). Thus, to a certain degree, Magearna wasn’t entirely unstoppable, though “unstoppable” is a pretty weak term considering what the little prick could pull off back then. And then Generation 8 dropped.

CHANGES:
Even before Magearna made its entrance through the DLC, Generation 8 was already quite the shit-fest in terms of competitive. For the introduction of new mons, there were practically unviable mons such as Greedent or Grapploct, but there was almost no middle ground. It just jumped to absolute demons such as Cinderace, Dracovish, Spectrier, etc., which were eventually banned. This was also without taking Dynamax, quite possibly the nastiest mechanic Game Freak had to offer yet, into account. NatDex’s suspect regarding this mechanic had to be the most volatile thread I’ve ever witnessed, and I don’t quite think it’s going to get topped for a while. It goes without saying that the metagame was an absolute mess.

So enough about Gen 8 being shitty; where did Magearna become broken in all of this? With every DLC, some pre-existing mons made a comeback with new moves. Some of these were actually wonderful as they had the chance to bolster the viability of a mon. Lycanroc-Dusk had access to Close Combat and Play Rough, both which worked really well with its Tough Claws ability. Scizor, as well as some Flying types, got Dual Wingbeat, giving Scizor another great Technician-boosted move and finally a viable offensive STAB for the physical Flying types that lacked Brave Bird. Some mons received new moves that actually straight-up busted them; Mega Blastoise with Shell Smash and Mega Alakazam with Nasty Plot were, without a doubt, the best examples as they were sent straight to Ubers. As for Magearna . . . the mechanical doll got two of the most unnecessary moves in Draining Kiss and Stored Power. Both were nails in the coffin, and both finally warranted a much-needed suspect test.

Some might be snickering at the fact that a 50 BP recovery move is how Magearna started to become broken, but there are a couple of things to consider. Remember when I said Magearna had a lack of reliable recovery and that it could easily get worn down by hazards? Draining Kiss just remedied that problem. Not to mention, this was a STAB recovery move for the machine as well, so this move was more viable than it seemed. It’s also important to remember that Soul Heart can easily negate the seemingly pathetic damage of Draining Kiss, probably boosting it to astronomical levels if played around wrong.

Stored Power can work very well on the right mons that choose to utilize it. Z-Celebrate Victini is OU’s best Stored Power user, being able to utilize +1 into all of its stats before spamming it on any non-Dark type (fun fact, a Z-Celebrate boosted Stored Power actually has a 43.8% chance to OHKO a specially-defensive Toxapex). I’ve mentioned that Magearna had access to Shift Gear and Calm Mind; put these two with Stored Power and one can begin to see where this is headed. If that’s not enough, keep in mind that the mechanical bitch’s ability will continually increase its Sp. Atk stat every time something falls, which only boosts Stored Power even more. Both new moves eventually led to Magearna’s most popular/broken set: Shift Gear/Calm Mind/Stored Power/Draining Kiss. Speaking of sets, this isn’t even the machine’s only set . . .

SETS:
SG/CM/SP/DK
This is the set I just mentioned, and what is undoubtedly Magearna’s most devastating set. After getting up a boost in Shift Gear or Calm Mind (the former being more possible), Magearna has the option to either get a second set-up off or simply Stored Power. When it starts to look bad for Magearna’s health, simply click Draining Kiss to put it back in a good position. This set’s only reliable check has to be specially-defensive Heatran, and that’s pretty much it. If predicted correctly, some Ground types such as Landorus-T or Garchomp could theoretically get the jump on it, but sometimes that may fail too.

SG + 3 Attacks
Before Generation 8 dropped, this was a popular set for the machine in Generation 7. After one Shift Gear, Magearna technically out-sped a good portion of the metagame, even against some Scarf users. The attacks can vary, but most users of this set will probably carry Ice Beam for coverage against the pesky Ground types that could pressure it, simply OHKOing any variants of Landorus-T and Garchomp while putting Hippowdon in a pretty unfavorable position. Volt Switch can be used for the momentum if it got too rough for the mechanical doll, while Thunderbolt simply let it sweep. I’ve seen a lot of these pricks use Fleur Cannon as their third attack, though some would probably prefer Aura Sphere or Focus Blast against other Steel types that could possibly hinder the chance of a sweep. In NatDex, Magearna also retains its access to Z-moves, and now one has to play the guessing game of which Z-move the machine is carrying.

Assault Vest
This was another Generation 7 favorite; since Magearna was already fairly bulky, an Assault Vest could prove troublesome for staple specially-offensive mons such as Mega Charizard Y (the little shit can actually LIVE a Drought-boosted Fire Blast even without full EVs in Sp. Def). This set’s main attacks usually include Fleur Cannon, which does devastating damage, Volt Switch for fixing the harsh Sp. Atk drop, and Focus Blast and Ice Beam for coverage. Hp Fire was also an option even if it did not do as much damage as the other two coverage moves.

Heart Swap
Although it wasn’t the most efficient set, it certainly was a migraine inducer for those unprepared for it. Magearna’s Fleur Cannon always had that problematic Sp. Atk drop, which would force it to switch in most cases. Why let that stop it when it can simply pass off that problem to you? Then it’s back in a nice position. This can be seriously irritating to a lot of specially-offensive mons. This set can also carry Pain Split to fix its health, making the mechanical bitch even more annoying than it used to be.

Choice Specs
This is actually another really good Magearna set with its main debut in Generation 8. A Specs Fleur Cannon can now rip anything that is neutral or weak to Fairy with little-to-no difficulty, even dealing almost half of any resistant mon’s health. Focus Blast or Aura Sphere hits even harder, scaring out poor Heatran. Volt Switch is there for the momentum as usual. In this set, Magearna can actually screw dedicated special walls such as Blissey, switching out its Heavy Duty Boots or Leftovers by using Trick to swap the Specs onto the wall. This set is more dangerous than it implies.

All of the listed sets now presents another problem; you have to predict one of the sets correctly if you even want to have a chance against this prick. This was basically the same problem with Cinderace, but it’s even worse in this case considering Magearna probably has less checks in comparison to the fire bunny. And while once figuring out Cinderace’s set does allow you to adapt a strategy (albeit with some difficulty), all it usually takes is one wrong guess on Magearna’s set and you might as well take the loss. Want to force out Magearna’s SG/CM/SP/DK set with Heatran after seeing the Shift Gear? Oh wait, it’s actually Shift Gear with Focus Blast, and down your poor Heatran goes (and don’t forget the prick gets that Sp. Atk boost). How about switching in Blissey at the same time Magearna switches in? Get crippled by getting locked by a Trick Choice Specs. Why not try to switch to something like bulky Volcarona, something that can actually scoff at a lot of the machine’s coverage moves? Watch in horror as Magearna accrues some set-up moves while you’re forced to switch out to something to stop the set-up to no avail. Speaking of sets, a problem I have seen in this discussion thread is that some teams are forced to run two checks simply because of how many sets Magearna can run, and quite frankly, two checks may still not be enough.

CONCLUSION:
So there you have it. Magearna was already an absolute bitch in Generation 7 by virtue of its great typing, excellent stats, varying move-pool, and a very helpful ability to boost its sweeping capabilities. Generation 8 only turned it from 100 to 1000 to make the mechanical shit not just mostly unstoppable, but even less predictable and therefore harder to check.

I AM 100% PRO-BAN. THIS FUCKER NEEDS TO GO.

 

[Ragnarok Online ####]

I vote for Magearna to be banned from Gen 8 National Dex

I have personally never cared much for joining these suspect tests or even joining the forums until now. The suspect test for this pokemon has finally arrived and I truly believe that this pokemon should have been banned from OU a long time ago. I've had multiple accounts and have used several of them to climb the ladder: RagnarokOnline2001 to RagnarokOnline2015. I hate seeing Magearna when in the lower part of the ladder and in the higher part of the ladder.

The biggest difference between Gen 7 and Gen 8 is it gained access to Draining Kiss and Stored Power. Many of the other sets were already a problem, but the new sets were cancerous. One wrong prediction and you were screwed. If you had certain pokemons to check it, then they probably made sure to weaken those pokemon or eliminate them beforehand. What I do not see mentioned in many of the other posts are the slow sets, the trick room sets, or the tank set. Sometimes, the Magearna ends up being slower than predicted or it can even be much tankier than expected. This pokemon has too many potential sets with few counters to each set. If you don't have the correct pokemons that can deal with certain sets, you are likely going to lose. The issue isn't the fact that Magearna has multiple sets. The issue is that Magearna has multiple sets that are extremely hard to counter without the correct pokemons.

Therefore, when you see a Magearna, which set is it? If you have a few pokemon to counter Magearna, which sets can they deal with and which sets will they auto-lose to?

1. Shift Gear + 3 Attacks
   • Can also include Z-Move
   • Can be physical or special
2. Shift Gear + Calm Mind + Stored Power + Draining Kiss
   • Can also include Z-Move
3. Heart Swap + Pain Split + 2 others
   • Can also include Z-Move
4. Trick Room + 3 others
   • Can also include Z-Move
5. Calm Mind + 3 others
   • Can also include Z-Move
6. Iron Defense + Calm Mind + Stored Power + Draining Kiss
   • Can also include Z-Move
7. Assault Vest + 4 Attacks
8. Choice Specs + 4 others
   • Can also include Trick

Edit 1: I forgot to mention one of the worst parts is that Magearna has an ability that is even stronger than Beast Boost or Moxie. If a pokemon switches in and dies, then Magearna will gain a +1 to it's Special Attack. While Beast Boost and Moxie only give you the +1 if they land the finishing blow, Soul Heart (Magearna's ability) will make it so that you can't even scout using a low HP pokemon switching in.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Hi, I, unlike a majority of users here am voting DNB on mag, because I think that personally, although it is a really strong and versatile mon, I have not found it ban worthy.

“Why would you think this adam? Are you have the stupid??? Bro if u vote mag to stay u have a problem“

Let me just say this here, if ace was still around, I would have 100% voted ban on mag, as it + ace combined put too much strain on the teambuilder, and make a lot of mons straight up unusable.

One argument for its banning was the fact that different sets had different checks, and thus, wad hard to fit all on a team. This was definitely the case pre ace ban, as spdef pex, amoong and slowking were quite unviable.

But now that ace is gone, a lot of these mons have started shinning again, for example , , spdef or scarf variants of , and mons being able to run spdef/mixed sets now such as . These mons are not at all niche, nor are they cripping to put in a team, and cores like + , + , + have been popping up quite frequently, and together check a majority, if not all mag sets.

Another argument was the fact that it had too many sets. and you didn’t know which one it was until it was too late, which i think isnt that strong of an argument, because generally you can tell what set it is based on the team. If its a HO team its gonna be Shift Gear, and you can scout which variant it is easily with the mons mentioned above. If its on a BO or Offense team, its almost always going to be either CM-Z (hswap/split), or AV. Furthermore, specifically the KissPower set, is in my opinion just a ladder killer, as it takes too long to setup, and to actually sweep requires proccing the WP, which more experienced players will know not to do, unless they have to.

The only Mag set which I think is borderline bannable is SGear Fight Z with BoltBeam, as it works really well on unprepared teams, but even then, its easily chipped+played around, and without screens is prone to a lot.

Thats all for me, I hope we all get to save the bunny!

The issue here is that you do not know what its set is until it actually uses all its moves. It's more like "I have a Mandibuzz in on my opponent's Magearna... Let me go into Toxapex to take the Fleur Cannon it'll try to rip me a new one with--oh shit, it used Thunderbolt instead. FML." Or "My opponent has Magearna out, and I don't think what I have out can take a hit from it if it's Specs. Better go into Slowking to--Uh oh, it used Trick. Now my Slowking is nigh useless for the rest of the match, and not only that, it's even harder to KO because it either gets passive healing or can ignore hazards now. Time to take another L!".

 

[adem]

The issue here is that you do not know what its set is until it actually uses all its moves. It's more like "I have a Mandibuzz in on my opponent's Magearna... Let me go into Toxapex to take the Fleur Cannon it'll try to rip me a new one with--oh shit, it used Thunderbolt instead. FML." Or "My opponent has Magearna out, and I don't think what I have out can take a hit from it if it's Specs. Better go into Slowking to--Uh oh, it used Trick. Now my Slowking is nigh useless for the rest of the match, and not only that, it's even harder to KO because it either gets passive healing or can ignore hazards now. Time to take another L!".

Except you’re overestimating what happens when he does that, “oh, he used thunderbolt and did 50 to my pex (physdef btw)”, so i swap to my :insertground/grass: to continue checking it. And your example used the 3A mag, which i do agree is its strongest set, but cant break through fatter teams, due to its lack of initial power without calm mind. IMO mag is quite similiar to volcorona, but on a larger scale, as they both pick and choose its checks. For example, “heatran is my volc check/counter” oop, its hp ground, “blissey walls volc” oop, its safeguard. So i would apply the same principle to mag, because like volc, if you load the wrong set into the wrong matchup, it is significantly harder for you to ”snowball” and eliminate the opponents team. Also, about specs mag infinitely crippling its checks, now you have a mag that is significantly weaker than how it was before, and cant just power through most of the team. Also playing vs specs mag is more of you have to play more aggresively, and specs mag as a whole struggles to get in and break vs more offensively oriented teams. Another thing to add, going slowking on a mag you assume is specs to sponge the fleur is really not the brightest move, as you take upwards of 80% just from a fleur, which requires 3 times pivoting/slack+1 pivot just to heal off. Thats why, slowking is usually paired with amoonguss, who freely shrugs off specs mags blows, and if they decide to trick you, now they lose 1/8th of their hp every turned coupled with the fact that they are significantly weaker. I really feel like you havent actually tested this properly, or do not understand as a whole how to handle the sets.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Except you’re overestimating what happens when he does that, “oh, he used thunderbolt and did 50 to my pex (physdef btw)”, so i swap to my :insertground/grass: to continue checking it. And your example used the 3A mag, which i do agree is its strongest set, but cant break through fatter teams, due to its lack of initial power without calm mind. IMO mag is quite similiar to volcorona, but on a larger scale, as they both pick and choose its checks. For example, “heatran is my volc check/counter” oop, its hp ground, “blissey walls volc” oop, its safeguard. So i would apply the same principle to mag, because like volc, if you load the wrong set into the wrong matchup, it is significantly harder for you to ”snowball” and eliminate the opponents team. Also, about specs mag infinitely crippling its checks, now you have a mag that is significantly weaker than how it was before, and cant just power through most of the team. Also playing vs specs mag is more of you have to play more aggresively, and specs mag as a whole struggles to get in and break vs more offensively oriented teams. Another thing to add, going slowking on a mag you assume is specs to sponge the fleur is really not the brightest move, as you take upwards of 80% just from a fleur, which requires 3 times pivoting/slack+1 pivot just to heal off. Thats why, slowking is usually paired with amoonguss, who freely shrugs off specs mags blows, and if they decide to trick you, now they lose 1/8th of their hp every turned coupled with the fact that they are significantly weaker. I really feel like you havent actually tested this properly, or do not understand as a whole how to handle the sets.

It seems your argument is based on prediction, which is not something I consider reliable. If I'm considering going into a ground or grass type and the opponent's Magearna set is not entirely revealed, I have to ask myself "Am I absolutely certain that their Magearna does not have Ice Beam?", knowing that if it does, my supposed check is not one any more. Those kind of guessing games are not something I'm okay with, knowing that the consequences of a bad prediction on the part of the player facing Magearna are drastic and possibly game-ending because its ability is basically Moxie on crack. Also, as this is a 6-on-6 game, there is always the possibility that my Magearna checks might have been damaged by something else (Hey, they're probably NOT being used solely for Magearna...). Also, even if you run into a Magearna that is known to have Trick and you do make them wind up taking Black Sludge (assuming, of course, it wasn't knocked off earlier in the match), what do you do then, knowing they'll then look for a chance to cripple another one of your mons (assuming that Amoonguss or Toxapex is your sole Poison type)?

 

[adem]

It seems your argument is based on prediction, which is not something I consider reliable. If I'm considering going into a ground or grass type and the opponent's Magearna set is not entirely revealed, I have to ask myself "Am I absolutely certain that their Magearna does not have Ice Beam?", knowing that if it does, my supposed check is not one any more. Those kind of guessing games are not something I'm okay with, knowing that the consequences of a bad prediction on the part of the player facing Magearna are drastic and possibly game-ending because its ability is basically Moxie on crack. Also, as this is a 6-on-6 game, there is always the possibility that my Magearna checks might have been damaged by something else (Hey, they're probably NOT being used solely for Magearna...). Also, even if you run into a Magearna that is known to have Trick and you do make them wind up taking Black Sludge (assuming, of course, it wasn't knocked off earlier in the match), what do you do then, knowing they'll then look for a chance to cripple another one of your mons (assuming that Amoonguss or Toxapex is your sole Poison type)?

Please reread my argument, i didnt mention prediction whatsoever, going into pex is fine, as the max it takes is 50 from tbolt (physdef pex, max spat mag), and then you can go to your electric resist/immune type to force it out again. Also, the opponent still has to predict that you are going to swap to hit you with ice beam, its not a one sided prediction. All of its checks have reliable healing bar heatran, via a self healing move, regenerator. Lastly, “they’ll look for a chance to cripple another one of your mons, assumimg amoonguss or toxapex is your sole poison mon” why are you not swapping your specs mag check into specs mag???? I dont see why you would not want to swap your amoonguss/toxapex into the magearna, and let it cripple your other mons? Also, you use the argument ”what if it was knocked off earlier in the match?” The same argument applies to mag, as it more often that not swaps into moves like pex toxic, or Also before you say “What if they are dead/weakened” both of them have regenerator and pex has its own self recovery to add on to it, if anything, the magearna will be more weakened; furthermore, if you let your mag check(s) (who all have consistent recovery bar tran) get weakened or die, while the mag is still healthy and alive, thats a problem with your gameplay, not the mon.

 

[theotherguytm]

Please reread my argument, i didnt mention prediction whatsoever, going into pex is fine, as the max it takes is 50 from tbolt (physdef pex, max spat mag), and then you can go to your electric resist/immune type to force it out again. Also, the opponent still has to predict that you are going to swap to hit you with ice beam, its not a one sided prediction. All of its checks have reliable healing bar heatran, via a self healing move, regenerator. Lastly, “they’ll look for a chance to cripple another one of your mons, assumimg amoonguss or toxapex is your sole poison mon” why are you not swapping your specs mag check into specs mag???? I dont see why you would not want to swap your amoonguss/toxapex into the magearna, and let it cripple your other mons? Also, you use the argument ”what if it was knocked off earlier in the match?” The same argument applies to mag, as it more often that not swaps into moves like pex toxic, or Also before you say “What if they are dead/weakened” both of them have regenerator and pex has its own self recovery to add on to it, if anything, the magearna will be more weakened; furthermore, if you let your mag check(s) (who all have consistent recovery bar tran) get weakened or die, while the mag is still healthy and alive, thats a problem with your gameplay, not the mon.

252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unboosted, sure Mag does a bit more than 50 to Pex. That's enough to force it out and has more than it recovers with Regen, so it will lose health over the course of the game unless you find free turns to heal it up.
252 SpA Magearna Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Better hope it's not Electrium!
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Who says Pex checks Specs Mag again? Seriously lol, Pex just loses if it has to come into this thing twice, which is easy because Mag is VSing into something that forces Pex out that then pivots back to Mag, because that's how VoltTurn works.

Also your argument about pivoting around it works for slow breakers, not for a Magearna after a Shift Gear because Mag just forces out the Ground with the threat of Ice Beam and you're stuck in the same situation. This is how desperate plays like going hard Scarf Lando into Mag happen.

Also Also if that Pex is not carrying haze, congrats it's setup bait for KissPower variants.

Magearna is broken because it abuses its own checks and finding out which set it is without straight-up losing a mon is near-impossible. You could go Pex to try and shut down setup with Haze and tank a Fleur, but Specs Volt Switch and Shift Gear Electrium destroy you.

Even Pokemon that get to pick and choose their checks and counters should not be able to actively abuse potential checks, but this is precisely what Mag does. Specs with Focus Blast and Fightinum sets use SpD Heatran as setup bait/free kill. Pex I've been through already. Blissey is smashed by KissPower and crippled by Trick. AV Mag gets boned by Calm Mind sets (it speaks volumes when a mon is its own best counter). AV Amoonguss (which is an objectively terrible set, change my mind) just gets hammered by Iron Defence and Ice Beam sets. Mag is so broken it actively uses its checks to its other sets (which are limited enough in number) as setup bait, and then snowballs off them, which prevents the actual check to the set it is running doing their job. The net result is you end up running THREE slots for Mag and it can still beat you. What does that say.

 

[adem]

252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unboosted, sure Mag does a bit more than 50 to Pex. That's enough to force it out and has more than it recovers with Regen, so it will lose health over the course of the game unless you find free turns to heal it up.
252 SpA Magearna Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Better hope it's not Electrium!
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Who says Pex checks Specs Mag again? Seriously lol, Pex just loses if it has to come into this thing twice, which is easy because Mag is VSing into something that forces Pex out that then pivots back to Mag, because that's how VoltTurn works.

Also your argument about pivoting around it works for slow breakers, not for a Magearna after a Shift Gear because Mag just forces out the Ground with the threat of Ice Beam and you're stuck in the same situation. This is how desperate plays like going hard Scarf Lando into Mag happen.

Also Also if that Pex is not carrying haze, congrats it's setup bait for KissPower variants.

Magearna is broken because it abuses its own checks and finding out which set it is without straight-up losing a mon is near-impossible. You could go Pex to try and shut down setup with Haze and tank a Fleur, but Specs Volt Switch and Shift Gear Electrium destroy you.

Even Pokemon that get to pick and choose their checks and counters should not be able to actively abuse potential checks, but this is precisely what Mag does. Specs with Focus Blast and Fightinum sets use SpD Heatran as setup bait/free kill. Pex I've been through already. Blissey is smashed by KissPower and crippled by Trick. AV Mag gets boned by Calm Mind sets (it speaks volumes when a mon is its own best counter). AV Amoonguss (which is an objectively terrible set, change my mind) just gets hammered by Iron Defence and Ice Beam sets. Mag is so broken it actively uses its checks to its other sets (which are limited enough in number) as setup bait, and then snowballs off them, which prevents the actual check to the set it is running doing their job. The net result is you end up running THREE slots for Mag and it can still beat you. What does that say.

Okay, few things i need to address.
If you read my first post, you would know that I mentioned that Pex can run spdef/mixed a lot more now, due to ace nor being in the tier, and I personally used Physdef pex in my example in order to show how normal 3a mag cant break through fatter cores.

That requires it to actually Z Elec as you switch, which requires prediction on both sides, unless you‘re suggesting pex stays in, instead of scouting other moves, which means thats a problem with your playstyle.

I really dont think you bothered *at all* to read my posts, first, Pex isnt the only defensive mon in a core, second, i mentioned amoonguss as a specs mag check, not pex, so i dont know where you’re heading there. Also, same as previous, pex can afford to run spdef or mixed; the mag player also has to predict correctly that he is going into pex, as prediction isnt only one sided, as many people fail to realise.

Again, if you read mine and the other guys post, the scenario was: Tbolt as you switch to pex, no shift gear, which is what my argument was referring too, and if it shift gears, pex just hazes, then you swap? Sure its a aggresive play, not desperat, you’re mixing it up my friend. And this applies to a lot of mons, taking risks in mons is normal.

If a pex isnt carrying haze, that means your pex is a bad set because all pex’s should carry haze, its the last 2 slots which are often interchangeable, so that argument is practically invalid, and just nit picking at that point.

Its pretty obvious if a mag is going to be SG or specs/cm split/swap if it even is offensive on a team, you cant load into a HO team and expect a AV mag or a Specs mag, its obviously going to be some for of Shift Gear. Again, nitpicking, and scouting exists.

Volcorona does this too (Pick and choose its checks) so this argument on its own doesnt add up.
Furthermore, as i've said multiple times before, mag checks are extremely common, and they are commonly paired together, to form a solid defensive core, checking mag is just a side effect. You are not shooting yourself in the leg just by running them, as many teams run them already.

 

[Guard]

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I have ranted about Magearna at end on multiple occasions [1] [2] for a very long while now. Truth be told, I vehemently wanted it suspect tested in lieu of Cinderace's first suspect test and was even of the opinion that it was a more pressing matchup issue than Spectrier. I don't really want to state too much of the obvious in this post as a result; I believe a lot of people here as well as myself on earlier occasions have done a good job covering the important points. For the sake of leaving no doors unturned, I would still like to go over some other points, with an emphasis on why Magearna's not only unhealthy in the teambuilder, but in practice as well.

To start off, I want to assert that Magearna is at its prime, contrary to some claims in here. While it is true that Cinderace's ban has alleviated teambuilder issues to an extent (freeing up some soft-checks to Magearna in Slowking, Gastrodon, and specially defensive Toxapex) and diminished some of the effectivity of bulky offense builds Choice Specs and Assault Vest Magearna are so fond of, it has also taken away what was probably the single most effective means of punishing or soft-checking every Magearna set; Magearna has a lot more outs against speed control options such as Ash-Greninja and Weavile than it could ever claim to have against Cinderace. Blissey handing over the title of best specially defensive pivot to rising stars in Slowking and Assault Vest Magearna also bodes well for Magearna's offensive sets; it has an easier time breaking through these pivots as opposed to Blissey. Clefable coming back to dominate the metagame with its Calm Mind sets is another development Magearna enjoys, seeing as this increases its opportunities to come in greatly.

Outside of broad metagame developments to Magearna's advantage, Magearna's ever-growing versatility should also be emphasized, as it is a huge factor towards Magearna's ultimately questionable position. To everyone's knowledge, Magearna's position has intensified greatly over the course of National Dex history from being outclassed by Mega Metagross, to an anti-metagame pick in the Urshifu era as a good stallbreaker, to a top-tier threat with the discovery of just how potent Choice Specs and Kisspower sets were during NDPL. Fast forward to current times, Magearna is now the undebatable queen of hyper offense, a top-notch wallbreaker with its Choice Specs set, one of the best stallbreakers with its Calm Mind + Pain Split sets in a metagame where stall is anything but negligible, a cornerstone of bulky offense as an Assault Vest pivot, and a situationally important component of various bulkier playstyles with its Heart Swap + Pain Split and Heal Bell + Pain Split sets.

In my opinion, Magearna's position on hyper offense is undoubtedly the most distressing in practice compared to its presence on other playstyles. You can be fairly sure you're facing a Choice Specs or Assault Vest variant whenever you load up a Magearna matchup on balance / bulky offense, which is not as much of an issue from team preview seeing as they share much of the same counterplay. On hyper offense, however, Magearna can run any of Weakness Policy Kisspower, Life Orb Focus Blast + Stored Power, or Z-Focus Blast. This is majorly troubling to play against seeing as the three of these sets have wildly different counterplay, while still bluffing each other. Kisspower under Grassy Terrain is only really checked by Heatran, Haze Toxapex, Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor to a consistent extent for a prolonged amount of time. Z-Focus Blast quite literally flips this entire interaction, taking out Heatran and Ferrothorn with the Z-Move, overwhelming Mega Scizor with Focus Blast into All-Out Pummeling after Stealth Rock damage, and getting rid of Toxapex with Electro Ball. Similarly, Life Orb Focus Blast + Stored Power overwhelms all of these four Pokemon a lot more easily than Kisspower. This is incredibly unhealthy, forcing opponents into unfair 50-50's.

These 50-50's are also exhibited prominently by Magearna's Choice Specs set. Some may argue that Choice Specs Magearna is prediction-reliant and not really that much of a problem in practice if you position yourself well enough, and I will be the first to acknowledge that there is definitely some truth to this statement. Nevertheless, it should not be forgotten that at its core, counterplay to Choice Specs Magearna hinges on a 50-50 between Fleur Cannon and Volt Switch. You may switch in your specially defensive pivot in the hopes of sponging Fleur Cannon, but must accept being at risk of getting chipped down and taken advantage of by Volt Switch. On the flipside, you may try to block Volt Switch with your Ground-type, but can never do so confidently seeing as Fleur Cannon / Focus Blast obliterates quite literally every Volt Switch-blocker in existence outside of Shedinja. Forcing 50-50's is a blatantly unhealthy trait, regardless of the fact that Magearna may sometimes get the shorter end of this 50-50.

I have now focused on why Magearna is problematic in practice, because I know some of you will undoubtedly argue that Magearna isn't banworthy on the basis of it having a sufficient amount of counterplay for each and every set. The next time you try to argue from this perspective, remember that regardless of every set being checkable by a sufficient amount in theory, Magearna still forces an unimaginably large amount of unhealthy 50-50's every time it sets foot on the battleground, and on top of that, can punish you for guessing wrongly a lot more harshly than anything else due to Soul Heart. Having said that, I frankly do not know how anyone can justify keeping Magearna in the metagame after taking the unimaginably large strain on the teambuilder into consideration. I adamantly believe Magearna is banworthy solely due to the teambuilder strain it exerts between Kisspower and Choice Specs. Everything else simply adds fuel to the fire.

Some might also argue that Magearna fulfills key defensive roles in the metagame with its Assault Vest and Pain Split sets, and that unbanning it might be the catalyst behind a variety of Pokemon soaring into worrying territory viability-wise (Tapu Lele, Clefable, and Mega Mawile come to mind). Frankly, this should not be an argument whatsoever, as it simply isn't relevant to contemporary tiering.

Magearna has overstayed its welcome in National Dex ever since NDPL concluded. It should be banned.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

I really dont think you bothered *at all* to read my posts, first, Pex isnt the only defensive mon in a core, second, i mentioned amoonguss as a specs mag check, not pex, so i dont know where you’re heading there. Also, same as previous, pex can afford to run spdef or mixed; the mag player also has to predict correctly that he is going into pex, as prediction isnt only one sided, as many people fail to realise.

That's true, but the consequences of a terrible prediction are much worse for whoever is facing Magearna than whoever is using it; if the player facing it fucks up, at worst they lose a mon and now have to deal with a boosted Magearna, while at best they get a mon crippled, in addition to being on the backfoot.

Furthermore, as i've said multiple times before, mag checks are extremely common, and they are commonly paired together, to form a solid defensive core, checking mag is just a side effect. You are not shooting yourself in the leg just by running them, as many teams run them already.

Even then, Magearna can overwhelm them. What in the seven hells am I supposed to do when I think "I should have it covered between Amoonguss and Slowking", only to run into a Magearna that has both Ice Beam and Thunderbolt?

252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 212-250 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
That's more than what Regenerator recovers.

252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This looks good at first glance, but if it loses its boots, things get much dicier.

Add another mon to check it? That's insanely oppressive, and makes me weak vs other threats as I now only have three slots to answer the rest of the metagame with.

Again, if you read mine and the other guys post, the scenario was: Tbolt as you switch to pex, no shift gear, which is what my argument was referring too, and if it shift gears, pex just hazes, then you swap? Sure its a aggresive play, not desperat, you’re mixing it up my friend. And this applies to a lot of mons, taking risks in mons is normal.

Taking risks is one thing, but when I regularly have to make risky moves that can easily backfire just to not end up in a bad position, I think it's time to consider that what is forcing this is oppressive and needs to gtfo.

 

[Jho]

This thread will be locked since voting is now up, and can be found here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-magearna-voting.3682518/

Thank you to everyone who took part or posted their thoughts on Magearna!