Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 13: Hurricane

[Avery]

​

Hey everyone! Tornadus-T was victim of a quickban wave all the way back in 2020, you can read in-depth about its ban reasoning here. But to quickly summarize, it got banned for its ability to unstoppably force progress on the enemy team alongside its access to Regenerator, its splashability, and ability to easily adapt to meta trends. Gaining Nasty Plot had nothing to do with it being banned, though this suspect was long delayed because of how effectively Nasty Plot tore through the metagame on paper. However, the metagame has evolved from how it was in the past; Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Tapu Koko are some notable Pokemon that are very popular in the current meta and would check Tornadus-T. The metagame is also much more fast-paced which keeps offensively oriented sets in check, while allowing utility-focused ones to thrive. As such, a recent metagame survey revealed that a majority of the community wants tiering action taken on Tornadus-T; and as such a majority of the council has decided to hold a suspect test to see if Tornadus-T will be brought down from National Dex AG.

Suspect Test Information

• This is new to National Dex suspect tests! Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. However, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, doing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  minimum games needed

  GXE	minimum games
  80	50
  80.2	49
  80.4	48
  80.6	47
  80.8	46
  81	45
  81.2	44
  81.4	43
  81.6	42
  81.8	41
  82	40
  82.2	39
  82.4	38
  82.6	37
  82.8	36
  83	35
  83.2	34
  83.4	33
  83.6	32
  83.8	31
  84	30

• You must use a new account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. The prefix is NXTORN. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXTORN Avery.
• Impersonating or mocking another user with your account name, or using an account name that breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules is not allowed. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. This can range from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Tornadus-T, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks, to give an idea on how it would affect the metagame.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks. This suspect test will last until February the 7th at 11:59 PM GMT-5.

Suspect Test Rules

• You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
• No uninformed one liners or posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
• No discussion on the suspect test process.
• Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
• Failing to follow these rules, may result in an infraction.

If there are any questions, feel free to PM Avery. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team. Thank you pannuracotta for ghostwriting this post.

Tagging Kris to implement this on the ladder :]

 

[Avery]

This thread will be locked for 24 hours to allow everyone to collect their thoughts.

 

[Avery]

This thread is now unlocked. Happy posting!

 

[airfare]

np is pretty broken
-airfare

expanding more below
|
|
v

look at my calcs

i dont know how to make this image smaller
the calcs are here for a reason - to debunk whatever checks u think this mon might have, not to take up space

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 293-345 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Subzero Slammer (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 424-500 (110.7 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO - wow gives less risk vs chomper other torn n shit too!!! good at enabling bird haters
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 354-418 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 280-330 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 243-286 (92 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 301-355 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 380-448 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO - there are better move 4s but if u have something that desperately wants corv gone this is the nuclear option to stop their slowturn into weav or whatever
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diancie-Mega: 246-290 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
etc

thers always the rebuttal "why are u slapping all these random moves/techs on" but the thing about torn is that its versatility and super free entry/setup means u can run literally whatever u want on it. i suspect fly z and fight z will be overwhelmingly dominant because they're the most consistent but wanted to show the possibility of other options just because they are actually viable depending on the support present. basically pick ur checks n whatnot

before Optify says something about sacking a mon to the z and moving on with life, torn having regen + the speed tier + the possibility of broken ass sub (of which the only downside is getting triple axeled) means that u can pretty easily preserve ur z and come back in to get ur free kill later, taking advantage of any attempted sacks or protects or whatever

TLDR
there are 0 reliable answers to this cuz of the speed tier & regenerator giving it ultra free entry and setup as well as wide coverage in fight+fly+fire?+poison?+ice?!?! letting u kill what u want... EVEN WITHOUT BOOTS
fat shit falls to taunt/sub even if u can manage to outplay the z

its cool to have another kart/lop scouter in more traditional fogging sets but np sadly pushes it over the edge
i guess u got the ou strategy of hoping it misses except now it has the option of a z move...

keep torn t banned

ave edit - i made the image smaller

 

[Moisture99]

After playing with and against Tornadus-T , I’m likely going to be voting unban. For now, I’m just gonna give a brief explanation but I may expand on my argument later.

I get that relying on poor accuracy isn’t good counterplay, but it is without a doubt worth mentioning that NP Torn is an incredibly inconsistent wallbreaker. Even 2HKOing something with Hurricane or Focus Blast is a 49% chance, not at all in Torn’s favour. I’ve sometimes seen Torn outright use the Z out of fear of missing.

While there aren’t too many switch-ins, Koko and Zapdos are solid defense checks to Tornadus-T. Blissey, Aegislash and Spdef Corvs are also set-dependent defensive checks.

Torn’s speed tier is impressive for sure, but some of the most viable Pokemon in the tier still outspeed it. Things like weavile, mlop, gren etc can all outspeed and revenge kill it. Weavile can pursuit trap a weakened Torn-T too.

While I understand that this isn’t the primary criteria for unbanning a Pokemon, it wouldn’t be giving Torn due credit if we didn’t bring up the great utility it offers the tier. It has the potential to ease teambuilding significantly through its near unmatched role compression. Bulky Torn would be by far the fastest and arguably best Defogger in the tier. It also checks Grass types in Kartana and Rillaboom whilst acting as a capable revenge killer and pivot.

Therefore, I will probably be voting to unban Tornadus-T. Hopefully suspects for Mega Blaziken and Dragapult are next in line after Torn.

I already know theotherguytm is itching to write another massive essay in response lmao

 

[pannu]

I get that relying on poor accuracy isn’t good counterplay

it isn't counterplay at all, whatsoever, its relying on misses to win a game which adds an unneeded level of RNG and by extension, uncompetitiveness to the tier. Calling it "inconsistent" as a way to argue why it shouldn't get banned is like saying "haha guys gdarm can just miss its stabs sometimes, and specs magearna focus blast doesnt hit 100% of the time either!"

While there aren’t too many switch-ins, Koko and Zapdos are solid defense checks to Tornadus-T. Blissey, Aegislash and Spdef Corvs are also set-dependent defensive checks.

If Zapdos gets knocked it loses 1v1, Koko cannot switch in if its chipped whatsoever. Blissey loses to np taunt and also long term in general, spdef corv gets nuked by focus blast. you know a mon is broken if it inspires people to use Aegislash to check it.

Torn’s speed tier is impressive for sure, but some of the most viable Pokemon in the tier still outspeed it. Things like weavile, mlop, gren etc can all outspeed and revenge kill it. Weavile can pursuit trap a weakened Torn-T too.

you fail to understand that on a majority of fat teams the fastest Pokemon is gonna be something like Mega Latias or Scarf Magnezone, if NP torn can outspeed and 1v1 everything on your average bulky balance/semistall and can just switch out and regen off any chip damage its taken that will just lead to it 6-0ing the team without any issues.

it wouldn’t be giving Torn due credit if we didn’t bring up the great utility it offers the tier.

Nobody doesnt think this lol. Having a regen defogger that checks rillaboom, kartana, tapu lele, serperior, etc etc list goes on would be fantastic, and if it was just this in question Torn would without a doubt get unbanned. However, what pushes Torn over the edge and the primary reason it hasn't been suspected before this is that NP Z Torn literally does not have a single reliable defensive answer. It would force every team to run one of Rotom-W, Tapu Koko, or Zapdos, as to not get instantly 6-0d by NP-Z, and even at that it would entirely invalidate fat as a playstyle.

Utility/Defensive Z / AV torn would without a doubt be nice additions to the tier, however Nasty Plot Z move tornadus-T is way too constricting on the builder and entirely invalidates certain playstyles. Im gonna vote to keep Tornadus-T banned as its just too much for the meta to handle

 

[spell]

Addtionally, I could see more use of SpDef Eject Pex as a cope answer (note this is only effective if it already burned Z)to NP Z alongside something like SD Weavile to effectively pressure it out -> set up, but even that sadly gets invalidated by Knock Off. Nasty Plot Z move unfortunately has no real solid way of being checked in the tier currently because if you just take a look at some of the more standard, ''vanilla'' BOs and offenses you will see that they all get owned by TornRotom/TornClef very hard.

Unbanning it for the reason of adding another exceptional utility 'mon is never a valid reasoning because, at the end of the day, suspect tests are for whether or not an element or pokemon is broken, not if it could do a couple roles better than most mons. Even in a world where people pivot towards Helmet, AV and Boots sets, NP Z (even just boots Z to an extent) would still exist. Too little defensive answers, pivots are hard to come by and are generally unreliable, the speed tier is also pretty noteworthy too... I see no reason why this mon should be freed. Yes, you can outplay the Z move/set up and yes you can revenge it, but the consistency of these game plans are pretty much not there.

Another note but more from a teambuilder perspective: having to select from a pool of pokemon just to have an ''outplay'' chance isn't very nice to have I think. This tier already is somewhat of a nightmare to build for due to the many things you'd have to keep in mind whenever you opened the builder and Torn would actually suck all the life and creativity of teams because of what you are forced to use if you want to have ''sufficient'' defensive counterplay to it. And these aren't even guaranteed, ''outplay'' and ''sufficient'' depend entirely on what set its using too. NP Taunt, NP Knock Off, NP 3a, hell you could probably even make Sub work on it. Keep this guy banned.

Also this isn't comparable to be forced to carrying a Ground- or Dark/Water-type resist/immunity in Grounds case, or an Electric-type immunity or a Heatran switchin in the slightest. Because at least with OffLando-T/Greninja/Koko, you can effectively switchin to it with plenty of mons without much hassle :p

Blissey, Aegislash and Spdef Corvs are also set-dependent defensive checks.

Don't get why this was even a point for Torn because of how bad p much all 3 of these mons are and how easily pressured they are by any potential NP Z torn team.

 

[Nish the Great]

What I did is I checked how every sample team does against flyinium Tornadus
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

rain

Rain:
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 293-345 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Knock off and later kill.
Ferro also dies if knocked and in addition, +2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO yeah.

Mmaw+Agren

MMaw+Agren BO:
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 243-286 (92 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 174-205 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if you dont need the z anymore,
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 280-330 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not even rocks let mmaw kill.
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 68 SpD Tapu Fini: 405-477 (118 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO allso regular hurricane does like 70% min so you can koff and then later finish while saving z
Unboosted sskystrike kills landorus, but that's a risky move. Hurricane on the switch will deal a lot tho

Mag+Drei

Yeah this does well vs torn because rotom eats +2 sskystrike and focus blast. I guess you can koff it but it still has pain split. If rotom is dead, which is a big if, you can maybe put in a bit of work, but the whole team threatens you.

Moltres fat spikes

FLyinium z kills everything at +2, very nice
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Gastrodon: 448-528 (105.1 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
the problem is this:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 223-264 (74.3 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Kyu BO

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Tapu Fini: 409-483 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You kill everything with +2 attacks.
good setup oppurtunity on lando, who can't touch you, or fini, who will die to get off a nature's madness that you regen off easy. Revenge killers don't ohko (but rocks are a thing)
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 208-246 (69.3 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 210-247 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clef+scizz

i'll make this one short. Amazing matchup with so much setup oppurtunity if it wasn't for that damn weasel

So that wasn't as crazy as I thought, but it can put in work against almost all of them. Has counterplay in weavile and rotom wash, and if any of those teams had a bulky zapdos that would work too. However, the thing that's different between Tornadus and other wallbreakers is that Tornadus can play the long game with its good bulk and regenerator letting is come in many times.

 

[pinorska]

Voting Ban.

Hi! This is my first time ever making suspect reqs; I did it without too much trouble and one of the highest GXEs I've ever attained.

I ran an HO that I consistently sit in the 1700s with. I consistently win games due to the regenerator ability on Slowking-Galar; despite the mon's many issues. I feel that Torn in the tier will enable Regen spam that will highly constrain teambuilding and make me disincentivized to play the meta.

https://pokepast.es/1312ec6cc399d34e
Ash-gren is how I beat Torn in all my games, as it can usually beat my other 5 over a game or even without switching. After a plot, I had no ability to revenge kill it if Ash-gren was dead due to its amazing speed tier. If paired with a special wall that my greninja can't touch, for instance blissey, I get 6-0d by torn-bliss.

My cleaner is rillaboom, who can never make progress against Torn even after knocking boots and gives it plenty of free setup opportunities, my spdf backbone is gking who can easily get knocked, torn beats and defogs on my rocker (chomp) and my breaker, mega maw, takes over half from hurricane. Torn also sets up freely on Corviknight, who I feel like is practically a necessity in the tier with all the kartana and landorus t running around. I'd have to run Zapdos in the slot if Torn got unbanned.


I'm not particularly experienced with writing suspect posts; I didn't feel the need to post calcs as they've been covered by Airfare
and I got the reqs, so I get my say!

 

[wadeeeeeeeee]

I get that relying on poor accuracy isn’t good counterplay,

I'm pretty sure that just because a move has bad accuracy isn't detailed as to why a pokemon shouldn't be banned. Specs Mag's focus blast is 70% accuracy with NO remedy to assist said accuracy, but it's still a threat because when it does hit then the counters to Dazz gleam and tbolt are rendered useless. This is the same with Tord-t. Not only can rain make Hurricane hit 100%, but hurricane is also only resisted by steel, electrics, and rocks. The only bulky steel in ND is Corviknight and Skarmory (both of which falter to heat wave.) Also if your argument about Hurrican's accuracy is strong, which it isn't, then we can also talk about air slash and how if you run it you could possibly win against blissey. Accuracy means nothing if the pokemon is still a threat regardless.

Also rock types falter to focus blast and electric types are the only save bet. However Tornadus-T switching out of electric types gives it a 33% recovery boost, and the only good electric types (in the defensive department) are the rotom forms, Mag, and Zapdos. Mag is also clocked by focus blast.

ave edit - combined ur double posts, in the future just edit ur original post to add more info instead of making 2 back to back

 

[Quagsires :D]

My vote is: Ban

Here's my team: Team

Originally I went into this suspect test assuming Id vote to unban Tornadus-T, after a few games in, I realized I was completely wrong about this pokemon. Initially I was going to vote unban based on a few factors:

1. Most of the offensive moves Tornadus-T runs have accuracy around the 80% range.
2. Getting into a positing where you can safely use a nasty plot without getting statuses isn't very easy as corv is the primary pokemon you can setup on, and it can just pivot out into somthing like a weavile, rotom-w, or zapdos to wall/outspeed and kill.
3. It may have regenerator but offensive sets without boots rarely live strong neutral hits if rocks are up.

Now here's why I voted Ban:

I used the rain team I linked above as I felt one of Tornadus-T's core roles if it were to be unbanned would be a wallbreaker on rain teams that could reliably take zapdos' place. If Tornadus-T got up a nasty plot it essentially got a kill no matter what. Nothing reliably could switch into this pokemon without taking half or being taken out completely, even zapdos and rotom-w (it's 2 primary counters) struggle with rain based sets like the one I used as shown in these calcs if rocks are up or minimal chip damage is dealt.

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Rain: 318-375 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another thing I'll note is when facing off against rain one of the main counters to mega swampert is ferrothorn, ferrothorn struggles to deal with rain boosted flip turn + an all out pummeling from Tornadus-T on switch in, killing most of the time in the matches I played. Along imwith that even when rain wasn't up Tornadus-T a large majority of the time hit the hurricanes and focus blasts it needed so I'd say the factor of lower accuracy is miniscule overall. Tornadus-T also has access to a wide range of utility and coverage allowing it to be a sort of super do-it-all pokemon that can overwhelm pokemon both offensively and defensively, I personally didn't see very many Tornadus-T opposing me while I did my matches and the ones I did were played poorly so I didn't get to see much action from them, however from how powerful Tornadus-T was in my team I'd say it would be a top tier threat that overwhelms almost everything in its path on other teams if it was unbanned and normalized into the meta game again.

Additionally Tornadus-T requiors your opponent to have some sort of revenge killer or either a faster pokemon that can reliably take it out, a scarfer, or powerful prio from somthing like a scizor's bullet punch or dragonite's extreme speed. An example showing this would be this replay where my opponent dosent have any revenge killer and suffers because of it: Replay

Overall I feel Tornadus-T has to little reliable counterplay in the current metagame and should remain Banned because of that.

 

[Moisture99]

I'm pretty sure that just because a move has bad accuracy isn't detailed as to why a pokemon shouldn't be banned. Specs Mag's focus blast is 70% accuracy with NO remedy to assist said accuracy, but it's still a threat because when it does hit then the counters to Dazz gleam and tbolt are rendered useless. This is the same with Tord-t.

I didn't really have a problem with the other responses to my post but wow this one is just bad. I never said that Torn shouldn't be banned just because it has bad accuracy. Also Specs Magearna's Focus Blast isn't that good of a comparison since in this case it is its coverage that is inaccurate, and not also its STABs (unlike Torn). Furthermore, Specs Magearna didn't even run Dazzling Gleam or Thunderbolt, it opted for Fleur Cannon and Volt Switch.

Not only can rain make Hurricane hit 100%, but hurricane is also only resisted by steel, electrics, and rocks.

We all know the type chart lol, there's no need to tell us. Rain is also conditional. You'll have to dedicate teamslots to provide this kind of weather support (which no one is doing unless on a dedicated rain team).

The only bulky steel in ND is Corviknight and Skarmory (both of which falter to heat wave.)

Completely false. Have you forgotten Heatran, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor? Even Jirachi and Melmetal? This point isn't even relevant since the majority bulky steels aren't checks to NP torn anyway with the exception of spdef corviknight (which is admittedly very niche and pretty bad). All it does is demonstrate your lack of knowledge on the National Dex OU metagame.

Also if your argument about Hurrican's accuracy is strong, which it isn't, then we can also talk about air slash and how if you run it you could possibly win against blissey. Accuracy means nothing if the pokemon is still a threat regardless.

Moot point, Air Slash is completely irrelevant. It misses out on a bunch of 2HKOs and OHKOs and causes Supersonic Skystrike to subsequently miss out on a bunch of 2HKOs and OHKOs. Blissey is a bad example to support your argument here since Torn beats Blissey with Taunt or Fightinium Z anyway and therefore doesn't need Air Slash. If anything, Air Slash would worsen your matchup against Blissey lol. Your last statement that "accuracy means nothing if the pokemon is still a threat" is true though, but you've supported it very poorly with your arguments.

Also rock types falter to focus blast and electric types are the only save bet. However Tornadus-T switching out of electric types gives it a 33% recovery boost, and the only good electric types (in the defensive department) are the rotom forms, Mag, and Zapdos. Mag is also clocked by focus blast.

Again, we already know the type chart. We also know what Regenerator does. This is nothing we can't google. You also forgot Tapu Koko. It's not explicitly a defensive mon but you (for some reason) included Magnezone as one so a mon that actually somewhat defensively checks Tornadus-T should have been mentioned too

For what it's worth, I've actually been rethinking my stance on Tornadus-T and am considering changing my potential vote from unban to ban. I just felt the need to point out that your post isn't convincing at all since it's riddled with inaccuracies.

 

[wadeeeeeeeee]

I didn't really have a problem with the other responses to my post but wow this one is just bad. I never said that Torn shouldn't be banned just because it has bad accuracy. Also Specs Magearna's Focus Blast isn't that good of a comparison since in this case it is its coverage that is inaccurate, and not also its STABs (unlike Torn). Furthermore, Specs Magearna didn't even run Dazzling Gleam or Thunderbolt, it opted for Fleur Cannon and Volt Switch.



We all know the type chart lol, there's no need to tell us. Rain is also conditional. You'll have to dedicate teamslots to provide this kind of weather support (which no one is doing unless on a dedicated rain team).



Completely false. Have you forgotten Heatran, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor? Even Jirachi and Melmetal? This point isn't even relevant since the majority bulky steels aren't checks to NP torn anyway with the exception of spdef corviknight (which is admittedly very niche and pretty bad). All it does is demonstrate your lack of knowledge on the National Dex OU metagame.



Moot point, Air Slash is completely irrelevant. It misses out on a bunch of 2HKOs and OHKOs and causes Supersonic Skystrike to subsequently miss out on a bunch of 2HKOs and OHKOs. Blissey is a bad example to support your argument here since Torn beats Blissey with Taunt or Fightinium Z anyway and therefore doesn't need Air Slash. If anything, Air Slash would worsen your matchup against Blissey lol. Your last statement that "accuracy means nothing if the pokemon is still a threat" is true though, but you've supported it very poorly with your arguments.



Again, we already know the type chart. We also know what Regenerator does. This is nothing we can't google. You also forgot Tapu Koko. It's not explicitly a defensive mon but you (for some reason) included Magnezone as one so a mon that actually somewhat defensively checks Tornadus-T should have been mentioned too

For what it's worth, I've actually been rethinking my stance on Tornadus-T and am considering changing my vote from unban to ban. I just felt the need to point out that your post isn't convincing at all since it's riddled with inaccuracies.

Well rain isn't obviously everywhere, however getting more and more attention due to Tornadus-T's utter prowess with a 100% accurate hurricane. The reason why Mega-Pidgeot was hyped up in Gen 6 was that it had a perfect accurate stab hurricane with an even higher base sp atk with no guard. Tornadus gets sludge bomb to clock koko on the switch, there are magearna's the run D Gleam and Tbolt (you can deny it if you want, they still exist), and I made the point of air slash because of 30% flinch chance since you were arguing hurricane's base 70% accuracy. Jirachi gets clocked by heat wave (not OHKO'd but it can't survive 2), tornadus can switch out of heatran and melmetal heal at the same time, mega scizor and ferrothorn gets fried by heat wave and Scizor can't switch into hurricane because
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor-Mega: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 189-223 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Jordy]

Do keep Tornadus-T banned. Ignore whatever these last few posts were and use common sense to come to the obvious conclusion tho.

 

[Moisture99]

Well rain isn't obviously everywhere, however getting more and more attention due to Tornadus-T's utter prowess with a 100% accurate hurricane. The reason why Mega-Pidgeot was hyped up in Gen 6 was that it had a perfect accurate stab hurricane with an even higher base sp atk with no guard. Tornadus gets sludge bomb to clock koko on the switch, there are magearna's the run D Gleam and Tbolt (you can deny it if you want, they still exist), and I made the point of air slash because of 30% flinch chance since you were arguing hurricane's base 70% accuracy. Jirachi gets clocked by heat wave (not OHKO'd but it can't survive 2), tornadus can switch out of heatran and melmetal heal at the same time, mega scizor and ferrothorn gets fried by heat wave and Scizor can't switch into hurricane because
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor-Mega: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 189-223 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Why are you pointing out that most bulky steels can't check torn when all of us already understand that. Did you bother to read "this point isn't even relevant since the majority of bulky steels aren't checks to NP torn anyway"?

Mscizor can't switch into Torn but your reasoning is irrelevant. Torn is rarely ever going to run specs. If you want to argue that Msciz can't switch into torn, then emphasise heat wave or +2 zfly or fight.

Also we all know torn can run sludge bomb to smack koko, you don't need to tell us. I'm just saying that it's an oversight to bring up magnezone as a defensive (which it isn't btw) electric type that loses to torn while not mentioning koko which most agree would handle it more effectively.

The vast majority of good Specs Magearna sets were definitely running fleur cannon and volt switch lol. You're saying blatantly wrong things and acting like they are fact. Moreover, magearna isn't even relevant to this suspect.

Yeah air slash has a 30% flinch chance and hurricane has a 30% chance to miss but your argument is literally non existent here. Wtf is your point. It's completely nonsensical and devoid of logic lol.

Been pretty snarky but these posts genuinely annoyed me. Will not respond after this one.

 

[wadeeeeeeeee]

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Why are you pointing out that most bulky steels can't check torn when all of us already understand that. Did you bother to read "this point isn't even relevant since the majority of bulky steels aren't checks to NP torn anyway"?

Mscizor can't switch into Torn but your reasoning is irrelevant. Torn is rarely ever going to run specs. If you want to argue that Msciz can't switch into torn, then bring up heat wave or +2 zfly or fight.

Also we all know torn can run sludge bomb to smack koko, you don't need to tell us. I'm just saying that it's an oversight to bring up magnezone as a defensive (which it isn't btw) electric type that loses to torn while not mentioning koko which most agree would handle it more effectively.

The vast majority of good Specs Magearna sets were definitely running fleur cannon and volt switch lol. You're saying blatantly wrong things and acting like they are fact. Moreover, magearna isn't even relevant to this suspect.

Yeah air slash has a 30% flinch chance and hurricane has a 30% chance to miss but your argument is literally non existent here. Wtf is your point.

Been pretty snarky but these posts genuinely annoyed me. Will not respond after this one.

I did bring up heat wave? "mega scizor and ferrothorn gets fried by heatwave." Also, tornadus definitely has a viable choice spec set, especially with its good speed. Not every tornadus in the world is a z-moved one. Also, it was you who brought up ferrothorn, scizor, and Koko so I simply rebutted against that tf. I brought up magearna to bring up how both pokemon were hard to wall, not what set it was supposed to run. You were the one that said that Magerana's have to run fleur cannon and volt switch. Also, how are you gonna say "Well duh hurricane has a 30% chance to miss" when that was literally your first sentence in your original post? Idc if you respond it's not your responsibility, but just admit that you don't understand my point rather than saying that it's illogical. And you didn't even acknowledge the bulk of my post with said that rain severely strengthens rain (which already is a very strong team style) and that point about Jirachi not surviving 2 specs heat wave. You haven't run into a choice specs tornadus-T, that much is already obvious but they definitely exist and they're definitely dangerous. Nasty plot is definitely more threatening, but I just wanted to bring light to another set that can also be devastating since it's evident that nobody thinks it's a problem even though it clearly is when it can demolish teams much like nasty plot sets. You were the one that brought up blissey, aegislash, koko, ferrothorn, and mega scizor. You also said that "you need a hard rain team to run tornadus on rain" or something of the sort, but running a hard rain team isn't the hardest thing in the world. For 2 generations it's been the strongest weather condition, so obviously it shouldn't be difficult to run hard rain.

 

[Jordy]

Idc if you respond it's not your responsibility, but just admit that you don't understand my point rather than saying that it's illogical.

Your point at its core is good but the way you argue it is, frankly, terrible.

You're right that reliance on a move with inconsistent accuracy is not an anti-ban argument. If anything, the fact that players often have to pray a move doesn't hit is only more reason to ban a Pokemon, as it increases RNG-reliance in the metagame and that is undesireable and not healthy, atleast in my eyes. This does apply to Tornadus-T in my experience.

However, when you put absolutely no structure into your posts, jumping from one topic to another, and display a clear lack of metagame knowledge, it becomes really difficult to get anything useful out of your posts. I believe this is why your posts were responded to the way they were—not engaging with your argument at its core, but instead arguing against the arguments you use to supplement it.

Just wanted to put this out there. I think it's best we move onto some more fruitful conversing.

 

[wadeeeeeeeee]

Your point at its core is good but the way you argue it is, frankly, terrible.

You're right that reliance on a move with inconsistent accuracy is not an anti-ban argument. If anything, the fact that players often have to pray a move doesn't hit is only more reason to ban a Pokemon, as it increases RNG-reliance in the metagame and that is undesireable and not healthy, atleast in my eyes. This does apply to Tornadus-T in my experience.

However, when you put absolutely no structure into your posts, jumping from one topic to another, and display a clear lack of metagame knowledge, it becomes really difficult to get anything useful out of your posts. I believe this is why your posts were responded to the way they were—not engaging with your argument at its core, but instead arguing against the arguments you use to supplement it.

Just wanted to put this out there. I think it's best we move onto some more fruitful conversing.

I apologize for that. I am knowledgable of the metagame and I thought that bringing the light a more unseen but equally destructive Tornadus-T set would be more eye-opening then the usual post under this thread. In retrospect that's probably not the move.

 

[Lameflame]

Since this is an important vote, I wanted to share my thoughts on Tornadus-T in the metagame and why I am currently leaning towards voting Do Not Unban.

Put simply, offensive Tornadus-T sets are broken in the context of the current metagame due to a combination of the following qualities: a lack of defensive counterplay to Nasty Plot + Z-Move sets, Tornadus-T’s ability to circumvent and/or outlast the checks that do exist, and the promotion of low-risk, high-reward sequences that are unbalanced in favor of the Tornadus user.

Apart from relying on the low accuracy of most of Tornadus’s commonly run moves, defensive counterplay is limited to one or more of Zapdos, Rotom-W and Tapu Koko. To a lesser extent, you could argue that SpDef Corviknight, bulky Aegislash and AV Melmetal are situational checks as well, depending on their health at any given time and how they are positioned into play. However, I think it is abundantly clear that among this exhaustive list, you are effectively forced to run one of three viable bulky electrics, a suboptimal set on an otherwise-viable pokemon, or a pokemon that is incredibly niche to begin with. Virtually nothing else in the tier can withstand a +2 Supersonic Skystrike, coupled with the prospect of an unfriendly coverage move, the direct elimination of recovery against Taunt sets, and the power of +2 Hurricane even after the Z-move is consumed. These qualities alone constrain the options players have to a degree that is unhealthy to teambuilding in the long-term.

Moreover, even if you do elect to run one or more of the defensive options that exist, Tornadus-T has a way of circumventing or outlasting nearly all of them, either by outlasting them with Regenerator + Item Displacement in the long-game, brute-forcing through them with an appropriate Z-move, or by virtue of the support it provides to a garden-variety of the offensive partners it pairs well with. First, nearly all of its defensive checks and soft-forms of defensive counterplay, barring perhaps Tapu Koko, rely on their items to help check Tornadus-T and its common partners (e.g. Tapu Lele). Tornadus-T is presently one of the best drivers of item displacement in the tier due to its ability to fit Knock Off into both its offensive and utility sets, and the pressure Tornadus-T exerts often forces its checks immediately onto the field to facilitate these sequences. The fact that it outpaces all of its defensive checks, coupled with Regenerator, Heavy-Duty Boots on non-Z sets and access to Taunt, allows Tornadus-T plenty of leeway to play the long-game and come out ahead. Pokemon like Zapdos are just barely surviving a +2 Z-Hurricane, which it can no longer achieve after a single round of rocks damage with its boots knocked off. These sequences almost always leave the Tornadus-T user unpunished, apart from Static Zapdos – again relying on RNG as a defensive-out.

Additionally, this is a rare case in which I believe the “versatility” argument actually does contribute to Tornadus-T’s characterization as a broken pokemon. Having an expansive movepool does not always translate into workable versatility in practice, but in the case of Tornadus-T, it is precisely the way in which it forces its limited pool of checks into play due to the prospect of the Z-Fly set that allows it to effectively lure what few options the opponent has. These factors transform sets like Icium, Poisonium or Firium Z from inconsistent on-paper gimmicks into legitimate lure options that must be considered by the player. The risk that the opponent has to undertake to “bait out” an anticipated lure set is grossly disproportionate to the high-reward the Tornadus-T user maintains in getting the turn correct, which is often a characteristic of a broken pokemon. Keep in mind also that all of these arguments have not fully accounted for the effect that Tornadus-T’s item displacement, luring and breaking capabilities have on the effectiveness of its common partners, but Tornadus-T is broken on its own merit notwithstanding the synergy it possesses with other offensive threats.

In closing, I want to address that I do believe Tornadus-T would offer a variety of positive attributes to the tier. I did not personally feel that its previous ban, grounded in the effectiveness of its utility set alone, was sufficient to justify a quickban of this pokemon. Further, I don’t think anyone denies that the tier would greatly benefit from the presence of Torandus-T as a role-compressing, bulky defogger that would at least soft-check a variety of pokemon that are otherwise difficult to account for. However, these points serve as reasons why a test is warranted, not why Tornadus-T isn’t broken in its own right. I am glad that this suspect occurred and I would have liked to reach a different result in my mind, but barring a compelling counter-argument to the contrary, I will likely vote to keep Tornadus-T banned.

 

[KoF HM04]

I'm planning to vote to unban. NatDex OU meta hasn't really changed much in a long time, plus every torn I ran into laddering for reqs felt pretty underwhelming

 

[Phyn]

I'm planning to vote to unban. NatDex OU meta hasn't really changed much in a long time, plus every torn I ran into laddering for reqs felt pretty underwhelming

Just wanted to say that introducing a mon in the tier "just to shake things up" is not a valid argument to free a potentially broken, and you didnt provide any reason why Torn felt underwhelming, unlike Moisture (which btw resulted in Pannu's tactical nuke and Moisture changing ideas)

 

[KoF HM04]

Just wanted to say that introducing a mon in the tier "just to shake things up" is not a valid argument to free a potentially broken, and you didnt provide any reason why Torn felt underwhelming, unlike Moisture (which btw resulted in Pannu's tactical nuke and Moisture changing ideas)

idk how to explain to you that it was underwhelming lmao, it did nothing significant every time I ran into it. There’s nothing to explain when it did….. nothing

plus if it gets unbanned and ends up being so nightmarishly game breaking then I’m sure it gets retested anyway. There’s a lot of pokemon that are broken if we post calcs of situations where it’s strong and assume they always have the correct move set for those situations. You don’t gotta agree with me tho just vote to keep it banned then I’m not gonna convince you

 

[Nish the Great]

idk how to explain to you that it was underwhelming lmao, it did nothing significant every time I ran into it. There’s nothing to explain when it did….. nothing

plus if it gets unbanned and ends up being so nightmarishly game breaking then I’m sure it gets retested anyway. There’s a lot of pokemon that are broken if we post calcs of situations where it’s strong and assume they always have the correct move set for those situations. You don’t gotta agree with me tho just vote to keep it banned then I’m not gonna convince you

How exactly did it end up doing nothing?? How did the opponent get the z-move to do nothing?

 

[Keahi]

My biggest question is does it help or hinder new players to get into the meta? Sure, I would love to bring in Torn-T to "shake up" the meta, but does it hurt or help the enjoyability of it? With the set being NP + Z-Hurricane that's the main issue, it feels like the luck based item ban. With newer players, they probably won't set up a NP. Experienced players will definitely take the switch opportunity to set up the nuke. Besides the nuke, I have to bring this up:

I get that relying on poor accuracy isn’t good counterplay, but it is without a doubt worth mentioning that NP Torn is an incredibly inconsistent wallbreaker. Even 2HKOing something with Hurricane or Focus Blast is a 49% chance, not at all in Torn’s favour. I’ve sometimes seen Torn outright use the Z out of fear of missing.

It feels like the luck based items ban, so it's probably going to be a ban regardless, but I'm probably going to vote Do Not Ban. The reasoning? I don't feel like it is broken in this meta. An argument could made that it's like Landorus-Therian or Kartana where it has the potential for several sets and one can stampede teams if they're not playing right or their teambuild is need of restructing. NatDex is a heavily offensive meta and Tornadus-T is another mon where it can thrive, but it's not necessarily broken. It's another offensive mon in a tier where it's going to fit nicely into the tier, but settle in an A+, rather an S-rank.

I will say this as an interesting change -- Ash-Ninjas are using Ice Beam, specifically for Torn.

 

[adem]

The reasoning? I don't feel like it is broken in this meta. An argument could made that it's like Landorus-Therian or Kartana where it has the potential for several sets and one can stampede teams if they're not playing right or their teambuild is need of restructing. NatDex is a heavily offensive meta and Tornadus-T is another mon where it can thrive, but it's not necessarily broken. It's another offensive mon in a tier where it's going to fit nicely into the tier, but settle in an A+, rather an S-rank.

I will say this as an interesting change -- Ash-Ninjas are using Ice Beam, specifically for Torn.

Comparing it to Lando T and Kart is a really short sighted view of things, especially the former, as the only things the three have in common are the fact that they have different sets. Lando T isnt really known for being a mon that can "stampede" teams if you dont guess the right set, because defensive and Scarf sets arent exactly hard to deal with, and breaker sets really just do that, break, like 1 time, maybe 2 if you're in a bad spot, but unless you play extremely bad around it and let half your team die prior, or bring a terrible team, it is not going to sweep you. The only set that can actually "sweep" are Rock Polish sets, and those for one are extremely uncommon with no recent tour or high level play, and counterplay for that is abundant and pretty similiar to its other sets: ID Skarm, Weavile, Gren.

Kart actually sweeps / breaks naturally, compared to Lando T, although you really aren't getting stampeded if you just guess the set wrong (you would need to let both your Speed Control/Kart RKer, and your pivot into it die to actually lose to it instantly, and by that point you cant blame the set variety, you blame yourself for playing bad. Even regardless of that, Kart is often a mon you can pivot into to scout the set first if your using a non HO team, so it isnt really hard to tell regardless.

Anyways, you fail to mention a number of things that actually differentiate this mon from those two (or really Kart since Lando was a terrible example), namely the much better speed tier, (Torn T's 121 compared to Kartana's 109 and Lando-Ts 91), notably letting it outspeed (for Kart) Scarf Zone, Serperior, all the base 110s [Mega Tias, Mega Tios, Mega Diancie are the big ones], and even Kartana itself, (for Lando), Mega Garchomp, Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Urshifu, Hydreigon, all the base 100s [Volcarona, Mew, both the Mega Charizards, Mega Medicham, and Victini], and a bunch of other miscellaneous mons like Zarude, Garchomp, and Blacephelon, as well as the aforementioned mons in the Kartana section. Tornadus-T also has an ability that gives it unparalleled longevity for a breaker, which makes wearing it down overtime much harder, and providing it much more opportunities to come in and break, making it missing moves much less of an issue if it can just outlast its checks through means such as Hazards and Pursuit. Lastly, this insane longevity and speed is also backed up by its more than solid bulk, which makes revenge killing it much harder without prior chip, and getting chip in itself is hard due to Regen. Furthermore, the argument that NatDex is an heavily offensive Metagame (which it rlly isnt, yeah offense is popular now but so is BO and Balance, while HO isnt really) so Torn wont be as much of an issue (although even vs Offenses it puts in a fuck ton of work purely due to its speed tier FYI, I think i have a replay lying around with it but ill edit it in later), the mon completely denies fat / balance, and even ones with Weavile for one, it gets outlasted (rocks weakness), and forcing every fat to run Weavile is pretty unhealthy. Of course this is just pointing out its positives on a purely breaking standpoint, as Lando has stuff like great utility and the ground type, and Kartana does not have the rocks weakness and can run a myriad more sets, as well as being able to snowball quick, however you did miss a lot of Torns attributes that make it as good as it is, and I needed to point that out lest you mislead others.

BTW, AGrens arent running Ice Beam now for Torn, they for one have ran Beam since the dawn of time for Tangrowth, Kommo-o, Tapu Bulu, and bopping Serp too, but its always been seen as overall less worth/popular than Spikes due to how much Spikes punishes everything else, and how it punishes the aforementioned as well. Pretty sure Hydro hits for similiar amounts as IBeam to Torn-T, or at least such a little difference that it doesnt matter.

TLDR I can understand if you are no ban because it is overall a very split decision, but it seems you really are skipping a lot of the big bits of what actually pushes it over the edge, and not really addressing any of its actual faults.