OU National Dex Suspect Test 2: Bug

Jho

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
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funbot chose the song I swear I had nothing to do with it

:sm/genesect:
Hello party people, the National Dex council has decided to suspect test Genesect.

Even with Dugtrio no longer in the metagame, Genesect has continued to be an extremely oppressive threat in the meta and has been shown to have very few reliable counterplay options due to its multitude of viable sets. Whilst Dugtrio supported it by removing its best defensive answer, Heatran, other Pokemon such as Zygarde, Mega Tyranitar, and Hydreigon have become common partners for Genesect in its place. These Pokemon also have the added benefit of abusing Rotom-Heat on top of this, which is a Pokemon seeing a rise in usage partially due to its ability to act as a solid check to Genesect. Despite these Pokemon being solid checks to Genesect in a vacuum, they often lose to it in the longterm due to Genesect's ability to U-turn on them freely and the fact that neither have reliable recovery.

Whilst there are plenty of common Pokemon that can take a hit from Genesect, there are very few that can switch into it and threaten it out as well as these two mentioned making it extremely difficult to both prepare for in the teambuilder, and play around in practice. On top of this, Genesect's ability to run a multitude of viable sets, ranging from Choice Scarf and Expert Belt to the less common Douse Drive and Shift Gear, and even niche sets such as Choice Specs and Choice Band further add to the pressure it exerts when preparing teams as all of them have different checks. On top of this, Genesect becomes increasingly difficult to deal with should it get the right Download boost for whichever set it is running and can often easily sweep if it gets the corresponding boost. This is most obviously exhibited on its Expert Belt set, where its versatile coverage options have the ability to break through the majority of the tier when it does get a Special Attack boost. All of this combines to make Genesect an extremely versatile and overbearing threat that warrants being suspect tested.


Suspect Information:
  • Genesect will be allowed on the ladder. The suspect will last for approximately 2 weeks, meaning that it will end on February 18th 11:59pm EST.
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NXGEN. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NXGEN Jho.
  • Reqs can be achieved by getting 79 GXE with 35 or more games on the National Dex OU ladder. Reqs can also be given to finalists of room tours which will be announced shortly upon specific dates so keep attention to that.
  • Once you achieve reqs, post the requirements in this thread (a screenshot of the accounts GXE and amount of ladder games with proof of account ownership). Voting will be taking place in a separate thread, therefore it is not required to post your votes in here.
  • A ban vote of 60% majority will be required to ban Genesect
  • Remember to keep discussion civil and stay on topic! Posts will be moderated heavily here so please try to follow the guidelines in order to avoid post deletion or possible infraction.

Tagging The Immortal in order to update suspect alert for ladder games.
 
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Knew this was going to happen eventually, I made my point about Genesect about a week or 2 ago, so here are my opinions now.

Genesect to me is still oppressing and honestly really broken. The Dugtrio unban did not really affect it that much as it is still nigh impossible to account for when building against it. You are still always going to be threatened by it one way or another. U-turn is one of its biggest strengths, it's pretty clear that Gene is the best pivot in the whole game because of the STAB it gets from it and it being risk free, and combined with its incredibly vast movepool and and download, it is nigh impossible to scout. You can basically mix and match whatever you want on this Pokemon as it has so many different sets and set variations, Band, Specs, Scarf, Mixed Ebelt, Scarf, SG Steelium, SG Firium, RP + Douse Drive. I've just named about 8 sets, and all of them are stupidly threatening in their own right, meaning that you can sometimes lose the match if you predict the wrong set. Pex can't take a Tbolt, especially specs, and Tran can get lured into a Douse Techno Blast or just lose to Ebelt HP Ground, keep in mind that these are Genesect's best checks, and Tran is it's only "counter" as its the only Pokemon that can deal with almost every Genesect set except for those 2, everything else loses to one of its sets.

While it is true that checks and counters vary with each set, it is so unbelievably unpredictable that it is extremely risky to bring out your "counter" against it as you can lose it if you predict the wrong set. The fact that Genesect can threaten basically every Pokemon in the tier and play around or just up beat its "counters" due to its immense set versatility makes it incredibly broken. It may not win every game, but it has enough options, too many options infact, to just pick and choose its "counters" and checks with ease makes it way too hard to account for in the builder. This Pokemon is way too much for the tier and should absolutely be banned.
 
Knew this was going to happen eventually, I made my point about Genesect about a week or 2 ago, so here are my opinions now.

Genesect to me is still oppressing and honestly really broken. The Dugtrio unban did not really affect it that much as it is still nigh impossible to account for when building against it. You are still always going to be threatened by it one way or another. U-turn is one of its biggest strengths, it's pretty clear that Gene is the best pivot in the whole game because of the STAB it gets from it and it being risk free, and combined with its incredibly vast movepool and and download, it is nigh impossible to scout. You can basically mix and match whatever you want on this Pokemon as it has so many different sets and set variations, Band, Specs, Scarf, Mixed Ebelt, Scarf, SG Steelium, SG Firium, RP + Douse Drive. I've just named about 8 sets, and all of them are stupidly threatening in their own right, meaning that you can sometimes lose the match if you predict the wrong set. Pex can't take a Tbolt, especially specs, and Tran can get lured into a Douse Techno Blast or just lose to Ebelt HP Ground, keep in mind that these are Genesect's best checks, and Tran is it's only "counter" as its the only Pokemon that can deal with almost every Genesect set except for those 2, everything else loses to one of its sets.

While it is true that checks and counters vary with each set, it is so unbelievably unpredictable that it is extremely risky to bring out your "counter" against it as you can lose it if you predict the wrong set. The fact that Genesect can threaten basically every Pokemon in the tier and play around or just up beat its "counters" due to its immense set versatility makes it incredibly broken. It may not win every game, but it has enough options, too many options infact, to just pick and choose its "counters" and checks with ease makes it way too hard to account for in the builder. This Pokemon is way too much for the tier and should absolutely be banned.
If it's not too much trouble, could you give full sets for each of those sets, so that we can further grasp the versatility? Currently my opinion is leaning towards ban but uncertain, due to basically the same reason.
 

Jho

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
This doesnt show the number of games, we need to ensure the amount is over 35 so if you could post another screenshot showing this that would be great.
First suspect i ever did :)
just happy it's done was afraid with all the hax that went against me i would not get the gxe
This screenshot doesnt show any proof of ownership of the alt. I understand that it's the same as your smogon name but the screenshot should contain the GXE/Number of Games as well as showing you logged into PS! in order to prove it is your account.

In other news, there will be a suspect tournament in the National Dex room on Thursday Night at 8PM EST. Finalists will both get suspect requirements, so make sure you're there if you haven't gotten reqs already! There will be another Suspect Tour later that Funbot will have more info on as it gets closer.
 
This doesnt show the number of games, we need to ensure the amount is over 35 so if you could post another screenshot showing this that would be great.

This screenshot doesnt show any proof of ownership of the alt. I understand that it's the same as your smogon name but the screenshot should contain the GXE/Number of Games as well as showing you logged into PS! in order to prove it is your account.

In other news, there will be a suspect tournament in the National Dex room on Thursday Night at 8PM EST. Finalists will both get suspect requirements, so make sure you're there if you haven't gotten reqs already! There will be another Suspect Tour later that Funbot will have more info on as it gets closer.
is this ok ? (yes i kidda struggle to find the command)
 

Attachments

If it's not too much trouble, could you give full sets for each of those sets, so that we can further grasp the versatility? Currently my opinion is leaning towards ban but uncertain, due to basically the same reason.
Here's a rough idea. Please let me know if any of these are inaccurate.
Special Scarf
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz/Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt/Flamethrower
- Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Hidden Power [Ground]
This set makes Genesect the best revenge killer in the tier. Two good STABs to choose from, BoltBeam coverage as standard, and +1 U-Turn Simulator on top makes it effective at dealing with opposing mons or pivoting out of its checks.
Physical/Mixed Scarf
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Blaze Kick/Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam/Extreme Speed/Explosion
This set aims to hit as hard as possible with Scarfed U-turn to chip down its checks as rapidly as possible, without losing out on Genesect's revenge killing capabilities. Explosion is a noteable option to blow a hole in your opponent's defensive core and gain momentum for HO, as a +1 Explosion kills nearly everything that doesn't at least resist it.
Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn/Hidden Power [Ground]
- Bug Buzz/Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt/Flamethrower
- Ice Beam/Flamethrower/whatever
Genesect's hard-hitting special set with limitless coverage. You name it, it drops to this with a correct prediction. If this gets a SpA boost from Download, something's dying.
Genesect @ Choice Band
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Blaze Kick
- Extreme Speed
The hardest hitting U-turn in the game rapidly brings the opposing team into range of priority spam. Cleans and pivots with equal ease.
Genesect @ Expert Belt
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Giga Drain
- Iron Head/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground]/anything really
This set shows off Genesect's full coverage options. With both physical and special moves to choose from and the freedom to switch moves, Genesect can rip teams apart with supereffective power, then simply U-turn every time it meets a roadblock.
Z-Move
Genesect @ Firium Z/Steelium Z
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn/Extreme Speed
- Blaze Kick
- Iron Head
- Shift Gear
Once you see Genesect use Shift Gear, it's probably too late unless you have a healthy Heatran in the back. Adding a Download boost, Genesect can get to +2/+2 in a single turn and smash everything in its path, with Z moves to blow past would-be checks.
Mixed Cleaner
Genesect @ Expert Belt
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt/any of the above stuff here lol
- Iron Head
- Shift Gear
This set compromises on sweeping ability to maintain Genesect's exceptional pivoting capabilities. This set also packs an additional surprise factor if you reveal Shift Gear lategame, when the opponent is bracing for something else.
Rock Polish Cleaner
Genesect-Douse @ Douse Drive
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Techno Blast
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Rock Polish
Throw Genesect's check list out the window, it has a 120 BP Water move (note however that it is highly telegraphed). Rock Polish is used here for its superior PP and reduced Foul Play damage.
Status Spread Pivot
Genesect-Douse @ Douse Drive
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave/Toxic
- Extreme Speed/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt
- Shift Gear/Techno Blast
This one I just made up, and has questionable viability. The idea is to spread status using Genesect's capability to force switches, so Shift Gear Extreme Speed can clean lategame. The Douse Drive scares any Fire types that would otherwise switch into you, without even the need to run Techno Blast! Forget no counters, what's a check?
So yeah, just a few options.
And my opinion? Why are we even suspecting this when we could quickban? Is there a different standard for banning a mon than unbanning it or something? Surely it makes more sense to quickban and suspect while banned than to quickunban and suspect later.
 
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First time doing this, see attached for proof.

I only saw a couple genesect during my run so I'll play some more in order to get a better idea of how I feel about the test. I am interested in hearing y'all's opinions on the mon so I can get a better idea of its strengths/weaknesses!

reqs.png
 
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genesect.gif

Genesect has been a phenomenal Pokémon ever since its release back in BW. Its solid stats and Download ability, alongside its amazing coverage makes it an exceptionally good Pokémon. Even to this day, where power creep has gotten this big, Genesect is still considered one of the best Pokémon in the OU tier, because of the aforementioned reasonings. Even now, Genesect is on the chopping block yet again. I personally really think Genesect is absolutely the most banworthy Pokémon that we have at this current moment, so I think Genesect should get banned.

First of all, Genesect is simply very difficult to deal with in practice. Its insane amount of viable coverage moves it can run makes the whole game against Genesect a guessing game. This especially goes for the Expert Belt set. The Expert Belt set, consisting of U-turn, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower and Ice Beam, is already very hard to consistently deal with. Hard checks to this set would be Pokémon like Heatran and Rotom-Heat, as they take pretty much any attack reliably well and can punish it with any Fire move. However, neither of these two Pokémon outspeed Genesect, which allows Genesect to just U-turn out and force chip damage on both of these checks. Doing this will eventually result in both of these Pokémon being at too low of a percentage to consistently keep checking Genesect throughout the game. +1 Thunderbolt against Heatran does like 40%, which puts Heatran under enormous amount of pressure, as it just can't afford to lose any sort of health throughout the game. Rotom-Heat, while being a very solid check (especially with HDB, making it immune to Rocks and thus avoiding chip), still gets U-turned out on and doesn't necessarily like constantly switching into Genesect's moves. And this is only the Expert Belt set. What if it's the more niche Douse Drive? Both Heatran and Rotom-Heat can't reliably check Genesect anymore, forcing you to use Pokémon like Chansey, AV Magearna, or Mega Venusaur alongside either Heatran or Rotom-Heat to check Genesect. But what if it's Shift Gear Steelium? Genesect is just very unpredictable and it's hard to figure out each and every set just from team preview, if it's even 100% possible at all.

The latter part of the last argument can also be applied to the fact that Genesect is just insanely hard to account for in teambuilding. It's practically impossible to reliably cover any Genesect set out there, or even the most common sets at that. Steel types like SpDef Aegislash or even Scarf Magnezone could theoretically check it, and might even be able to at times, but are in practice just never going to give you enough counterplay. Even if you have a Heatran or Rotom-Heat alongside these Pokémon, the fact that Genesect is just so incredibly versatile and can run so many different sets makes it just insanely hard to deal with. It's especially hard to deal with since we also have so many other giant threats in the metagame we have to take into account while teambuilding; Zygarde, Mega Metagross, Aegislash, Mega Blastoise, Kartana, Galarian Darmanitan, (Ash) Greninja, Volcarona etc. These Pokémon, combined with Genesect also being in the meta, really restricts the metagame as a whole and will eventually result into a very centralizing and one dimensional meta.

However, there might be a few arguments out there that are in favour of keeping Genesect. One of the most common arguments for keeping Genesect is that its speed tier is relatively awkward, being outsped by base 100's and above. This would make it vulnerable to getting revenge killed by quite a large portion of the metagame, or at least get heavily damaged. The main problem with this arguments is that if you're not carrying Fire coverage, you won't actually be able to OHKO Genesect. This argument also doesn't take into account that actually getting these Pokémon in that can revenge kill it can't actually switch in at all, and you'll probably have to sack something (or at least get heavily damaged) before coming in. Shift Gear sets will also still be super threatening, as most of the revenge killing is thrown out of the window. Choice Scarf sets can also just keep clicking U-turn and chip away at the opponent, as the U-turns its throwing out can be super strong.

All in all, I think Genesect's impact on the metagame is unhealthy and it will hurt the tier in the long run (if it's not already doing it right now, that is). I think getting rid of Genesect will be another right step into the direction of a healthy and fun to play metagame.
 
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