Resource National Dex Viability Rankings v2

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Your perspectives on both Crawdaunt and Hoops are heavily flawed. While both suffer heavily from having bad speed tiers and defensive typings, both of them still justify being ranked owing to their absurd wallbreaking abilities.



Starting with Crawdaunt, the lobster is extremely hard to switch into owing to its incredibly strong Knock Offs, Crabhammers, and even Close Combats, especially under Rain where, while it finds itself competing with Manaphy for a spot, its ability to act as a more direct and potent wallbreaker than Mega Swampert can be appreciated, especially vs teams with ( Slowking/Amoonguss/Kommo-o cores or FiniTang cores which have become increasingly common and Pert finds itself struggling to break) as can its extremely strong Aqua Jets, which outmuscle even the likes of the rising Urshifu Rapid Strike and give it a very powerful revenge killing tool. Though, as I said before, its mediocre defensive typing, low speed, and general competition with other Rain staples and other Water wallbreakers like Urshifu-RS and Manaphy means it finds itself in a rough spot, its sheer potency means it is "worth mentioning" and certainly more than merits a place in C



Hoopa-Unbound is in a similar boat as Crawdaunt, being a slow but extremely potent wallbreaker, except it exchanges a place on rain and an absurdly strong Knock Off for even better offensive stats, a wider movepool, and being even harder to switch into.

I don't think many people would argue that Hoopa-Unbound, whether it is Specs or Band, is one of the hardest Pokemon to actually switch into in the tier, with either Hyperspace/Zen/Gunk/Fire or Drain and Psychic/Dark Pulse/Focus Blast/filler having near perfect coverage for the entire tier and hitting absurdly hard thanks to 160/170 offenses. In particular, these traits serve it well in its main role of utterly dominating defensive cores. Most defensive cores in the metagame, whether they be SlowMoonguss, TangFini, PexCorv, or even full on fat/stall teams, utterly struggle to deal with Hoopa, getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by its coverage or even getting crippled by niche options such as Trick.

Speaking of, I want to address your hazards argument. While you argue that teams with Hoopa struggle with hazards thanks to Hoopa's prediction-reliant nature, I would argue otherwise, since the specific structures Hoopa fits on tend to feature pivots that either don't really mind/can remove hazards (Corviknight) or flat out ignore them (Slowtwins/Blissey/even the niche Teleport Clef). The only exception to this I can think of is Mega Lopunny. However, this leads into the main point of this paragraph: Hoopa, thanks to its strong offensive stats and great coverage, forces a lot of prediction and more importantly, switching. Owing to this fact, while Hoopa may hate switching into hazards, it utterly loves having team mates that can supply them, since the combination of hazard damage and Hoopa's raw power can whittle opposing teams down incredibly quickly.

In terms of partners, Hoopa really loves not only slow pivots like Corv, Rotom, Blissey, Slowtwins, and Mega Scizor, but also fast ones like Lop, U-Turn Gren, Lando, and Zeraora. In general, Hoopa finds itself fitting well on teams that focus on keeping up momentum with pivots and using wallbreakers to help their fast mon clean up (usually Gren, Zera, Kartana, Mega Lop, etc), and it does well on these builds.

That being said, Hoopa has a ton of flaws. Its defensive typing is terrible, it has a proclivity for being Pursuit trapped, it is very prediction reliant, it desperately needs help getting in, and of course it is really slow.

However, in my opinion, a flawed Pokemon that needs a good deal of help to perform a specific niche, but can perform said niche well and with a level of consistency (in this case being an extremely hard to switch into wallbreaker that can decimate fat squads) is the definition of a C rank Pokemon, and thus, Hoopa-U should remain in C

Also quick aside but Analytic Zone is a bad meme

Finally, I echo Optify's nomination for Skarm to B+

1: yeah not much stuff can switch IN on crawdaunt/hoopa without a doubt (2+ adapta crawdaunt kills basicaly everything that tries to switch into it or is slower than it) but outside of their excellent stall breaking capabilites they don't have much in the boat.
The most annoying thing is ninetales alola setting up aurora veil in front of these slow pokemon, 1 of which, crawdaunt, does LEARN brick break but people don't USE brick break on it (or really anything because overall cc is a better option)
Also analytic zone is NOT a bad meme as magnezone is slow so getting big buffs in damage is n o i c e

 

[NuttyRabbit]

1: yeah not much stuff can switch IN on crawdaunt/hoopa without a doubt (2+ adapta crawdaunt kills basicaly everything that tries to switch into it or is slower than it) but outside of their excellent stall breaking capabilites they don't have much in the boat.
The most annoying thing is ninetales alola setting up aurora veil in front of these slow pokemon, 1 of which, crawdaunt, does LEARN brick break but people don't USE brick break on it (or really anything because overall cc is a better option)
Also analytic zone is NOT a bad meme as magnezone is slow so getting big buffs in damage is n o i c e

Yeah, Crawdaunt and Hoopa don't have much to offer outside of their wallbreaking abilities, but their consistent ability to do so gives them the kind of niche consistent with other C rank Pokemon.

Also if you really wanted to bring up Screens you could bring up their mediocre matchups in relevant screens setters like Grimmsnarl and Tapu Koko rather than their matchup vs the largely irrelevant Ninetales-Alola (seriously Veil isnt great rn, largely because T-tar is p good right now and Ninetales is a terrible screens setter)

Finally while Analytic Zone does hit extremely hard you also give up its best, unique, and most defining niche in trapping Steel types for that bit of extra power, a trade that frankly is not worth it, especially since Analytic doesn't really solve any of the matchup issues Zone faces that could warrant the trade to begin with.

 

[Lupla]

1: yeah not much stuff can switch IN on crawdaunt/hoopa without a doubt (2+ adapta crawdaunt kills basicaly everything that tries to switch into it or is slower than it) but outside of their excellent stall breaking capabilites they don't have much in the boat.
The most annoying thing is ninetales alola setting up aurora veil in front of these slow pokemon, 1 of which, crawdaunt, does LEARN brick break but people don't USE brick break on it (or really anything because overall cc is a better option)
Also analytic zone is NOT a bad meme as magnezone is slow so getting big buffs in damage is n o i c e

Analytic Zone is not used for 2 simple reasons that have been explained by now,

The First Reason is the one that almost everyone mentioned now and that anyone that plays this meta reconigzes, Magnet Pull, without it Magnezone wouldnt be as good as it is now. Being capable of trapping many important steels that cover much of the meta such as Corviknight, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor is amazing and it opens up a lot of threats such as Rillaboom, Kyurem or Tapu Lele

The Second Reason is that if you wanna use a strong special electric type, Specs Koko does the job much better than it, thanks to his excellent speed tier and being able to stick out for a little longer with Roost, bringing the Electric Terrain support is helpful for threats such as Mega Medicham or Hawlucha (but lucha is if your using another koko set) and blocking sleep attempts from Tangrowth or Amoonguss. Sure its not a nuke that can blow up everything but as everyone knows, power isnt everything.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Analytic Zone is not used for 2 simple reasons that have been explained by now,

The First Reason is the one that almost everyone mentioned now and that anyone that plays this meta reconigzes, Magnet Pull, without it Magnezone wouldnt be as good as it is now. Being capable of trapping many important steels that cover much of the meta such as Corviknight, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor is amazing and it opens up a lot of threats such as Rillaboom, Kyurem or Tapu Lele

The Second Reason is that if you wanna use a strong special electric type, Specs Koko does the job much better than it, thanks to his excellent speed tier and being able to stick out for a little longer with Roost, bringing the Electric Terrain support is helpful for threats such as Mega Medicham or Hawlucha (but lucha is if your using another koko set) and blocking sleep attempts from Tangrowth or Amoonguss. Sure its not a nuke that can blow up everything but as everyone knows, power isnt everything.

errrrrr scizor and corv u-turn out and magnezone could make much BETTER use of magnet pull if it could set up but it can't (but if it could the thing would set up on ferro so hard). also, why did you say SPECS tapu koko when koko has better phys attack

 

[Lupla]

errrrrr scizor and corv u-turn out and magnezone could make much BETTER use of magnet pull if it could set up but it can't (but if it could the thing would set up on ferro so hard). also, why did you say SPECS tapu koko when koko has better phys attack

Judging by the last sentence. "Why did you say Specs Tapu Koko when koko has better phys attack" i recommend to learn about the meta a bit more before doing posts, im not trying to be rude here (if it does give that vibe then please tell me about it). As for Magnet Pull, M-Sciz has to run a lot of speed investment in order to u-turn out of it while corv is just hopeless. Considering your new you may ask "Cant they just U-Turn from the switch?" Well the thing is that they are often used to deal with pokemon like Rillaboom, that are able to bait them into Zone via momentum or they force these mons to come in (U-Turn in this case), which means the Zone user gets to trap that steel and turns the table on the MU. This is an important trade that enables so many offensive threats to go as they please without worrying about those steels that can get in their way such as Kyurem, Urshifu-RS (Vs Helmet Corv), Tapu Lele, Rillaboom, Landorus-T, Excadrill (You dont often fit those two together though) and also defensive mons such as Gliscor or SpDef Kommo-O

 

[NuttyRabbit]

errrrrr scizor and corv u-turn out and magnezone could make much BETTER use of magnet pull if it could set up but it can't (but if it could the thing would set up on ferro so hard). also, why did you say SPECS tapu koko when koko has better phys attack

Well generally Magnezone gets in on either of them on either a slow pivot, a double, or them using a non-pivot move, all of which can easily be accomplished over the course of a normal game.

Once that's done, since Corv and Scizor are usually slower (unless they givr up substantial bulk to hit 220 speed), Magnezone eliminates them before they can pivot out with Thunderbolt/HP Fire. It doesn't need to "set up" since it takes so little time to accomplish its goal in most games


As for Tapu Koko, while it has better physical attack, its poor physical movepool, usable special attack, excellent speed tier and solid special movepool make it one of the better specs users in the tier, and specs its best set in general.

 

[adem]

hello hello, back w another vr nom^^

Tapu Bulu @ Rockium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 220 HP / 96 Atk / 48 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Horn Leech

Z Bulu right now is in an amazing place, with the boom of Skarm (especially Naskarm) and mons such as Corviknight and Mega Latias being as prevalent as ever. Both Rockium and Fightinium has its niches, both being able to hit the steel birds (Fight Z for +- 5% more), and Rockium being able to nuke KO Mega Latias and Amoonguss, which are rising in usage. Furthermore, the rise in defensive cores such as AmoongKing and ClefPexCorv are all easily taken advantage off by Bulu, and with (what i will go into later) the fall of boom as the premier offensive grass, I do think Bulu deserves a much higher ranking in the VR, and really isnt as niche / as hard to fit as previously thought.

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 220 HP / 92 Def / 140 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance / Toxic (Much more passive, but deals with Zap and Tang better in the long term, and hits UnaClef if they dont know your not SD)
- Synthesis / Protect
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat / Stone Edge

And SpDef Sd Synth / Tect sets are still good imo, and fulfill a really nice niche in the tier, in checking Ash Gren whilst still maintaining an offensive presence, and supports its other teammates via terrain, although these sets struggle with the steel birds.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1363185934-yyhd5sqga808anjwtgeh12qtelth6smpw (Could only find one replay, will post more if i can get more)

All of this (at least for me) gives Bulu a much better niche in the tier, and isnt just always a “Inferior Rillaboom” and which is why I feel it at the very least should Rise from C to B or B- at the very least.




Clefable has always been an amazing mon in the tier for a while now, but overtime, it has gotten even better and better with metagame shifts and bans. With the Magearna ban (), it has become one of the best dark resists in the tier, and pairs well with mons such as Tang, Corviknight, Toxapex, and forming the infamous ClefPexCorv defensive core, which is a staple on a lot of balances for how much of the meta they check, and how much utility they provide. This combined with Magic Guard, possibly the best ability ever made, and definitely the best right now with the prevalence of spike stacking and hazard stacking as a whole, makes it an incredible mon, which fools a lot with its subpar stats, whilst offering a lot of utility in Stealth Rocks, Para spreading, Item removal, status absorber, cleric and healing wish support are just some of the roles it adds to a team, and being a stupidly threatening wincon with its cm set, which i’ll get into after. First, we’ll get into the utility set.

Clefable @ Leftovers / Sticky Barb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off / Thunder Wave / Ice Beam / Healing Wish / Wish / Heal Bell / Trick / Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

The utility set is amazing at forcing progress in games via spreading paralysis, knocking off items such as boots and leftovers, and consistently setting up rocks throughout the game. Paralysis helps slower teammates like Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Latias, Healing Wish works really well when paired with sweepers that often can both break early game and clean late game, but usually cant do both such as Mega Garchomp and Mega Mawile. Calm mind is an interesting option on this set as it greatly decreases its passivity against foggers such as Gliscor. Knock Off removing boots and lefties is also pivotal, greatly decreasing the longetivity of mons like Blissey, Zapdos and Tapu Fini. Overall, this set is very easy to slot into teams, and often glues together teams just with the sheer utility it provides.


Clefable @ Life Orb / Fairium Z / Electrium Z / Leftovers / Icium Z
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast / Beam
- Thunder / Flame / Beam / SRocks / TBolt / Knock Off

Calm Mind is (imo) Clefables best set, being a consistent WinCon on a lot of teams, varying from stall (With unaware though, but same concept applies) to offenses, and still slotting a lot of utility, by being an efficient paralysis spreader, and being (imo) the best, and the most consistent wincon in the tier. Considering this is a tier with Scale Shot Mega Garchomp and Mega Mawile, that is high praise. Clefables biggest factor in how good of a wincon it is is due to the fact of it being so hard to chip down and you need brute force to break through it, with toxic not being enough, which is a common deterrence to mons such as Mega Latias. Furthermore, its amazing typing and amazing learnset make revenging it with the likes of Punishment Lando T, which stops Reuniclus and Mega Latias, and access to moves such as Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and my favourite, Thunder. Thunder IMO is its best secondary move alongside moonblast, and it lets Clefable turn would be checks in mons such as Slowking-Galar and Heatran into setup fodder, and breeze through them. Flame lets you KO Mega Maw and easily beat Mega Sciz and Iron Head Ferro variants, whilst Ice Beam deals with grounds like SD Glisc who want to outboost you. Rocks can also be compressed on this set with how much foggers you force out, and Knock helps with long term support. Tbolt is a more consistent option than thunder, that doesnt spread para as easily, but imo it is much more inferior, as clef has good bulk to afford missing thunders.

All of these amazing traits and its great splashability is what makes me nominate Clefable to S

Hot Take:

Rilla from A to A-

I feel with the Metagame changes in Hazard Stack being really big, Rilla’s banded set isnt that good nowadays, and with the rise of Tang, 3 Attack Zap, NaSkarm, SuperDef Lando, and Volc (both bulky and offensive) I dont think Rilla is as good as it was before, and generally a lot more teams are prepared for it already, and it usually isnt a pain to deal with. SD sets are now being preferred, but they have their own issues, in not having pre generated momentum in u-turn, making it hard to pair with magnezone, and lack immediate power. Furthermore, people are (finally) realising Bulu isnt just an inferior Rilla, and its SD sets are much harder to check compared to Rilla.

Some other noms which can prolly be agreed on, dr need much explanation:

Glowking to B-
Volc, Skarm, Washtom, Mushroom and Mew to B+
Mega Diancie to A-/A
Lele, Slowbro to A-
Slowking, Tangrowth to A
Mega Bro to B-
Mega Venu to C
Cune and Mantine to UR
MSciz to A/A-
Shifu RS to B-/B

 

[peap]

A couple of nominations following discussion with adsam in ye old National Dex room:

from S to A+

from top of A+ to...S-

Both of these shift are reflections of this generation's pivot-heavy meta. Long story short, I believe Scarf Landorus lacks longevity and offensive presence vs bulky teams, while Clefable's many sets have a terrific mixture of offensive and defensive presence.


I believe Landorus' versatility - speed control, offensive check, pivot, defensive rocker - has actually relegated it from jack of all trades to master of none. Against common balance cores featuring Corviknight + Regenerator and/or Rocky Helmet, Landorus has little to no offensive output as a scarfer; many Pokemon safely scout an Earthquake and pivot into the appropriate check, of which there are many to a choice-locked Pokemon. While its revenge-killing capabilities* for the most part still shine against opposing bulky offense, Landorus often ends up behind in the momentum game versus these more defensive cores. Rocks damage chips it consistently even as opposing Corviknight can switch in and U-turn out. Similar issues maintaining momentum against Teleporters and Gliscor, which is one of its best hard checks in this metagame.

So what, you might think? Besides Gliscor, all of the checks I listed exist in SS OU, where Landorus comfortably sits in S. I believe the difference lies in the partners that these Pokemon can bring in vs Landorus. It is a sitting duck for some of the more dangerous sweepers in National Dex like Ash-Greninja, Manaphy, and the Rain archetype as a whole.

Latias-Mega is a notable target that Landorus struggles with. Landorus requires a +3/+3 setup to revenge kill a chipped Latias via Punishment and a slow pivot like Corviknight - virtually only Corviknight - and bring it in safely. This is a 3+ turn sequence where the opponent is gaining momentum and can decide to double switch anytime. I run Explosion sometimes to avoid this problem and just trade KOs, since being choice-locked into Punishment sucks anyway. Of course, Landorus itself can U-turn and bring in Latias checks like Scizor-Mega. On paper, though, it faces a losing cycle of getting chipped as it attempts to pivot into Latias, or even OHKOd by Ice Beam.

/
Defensive Landorus sets are uncommon and generally mediocre in National Dex due to being susceptible to Special Attack revengers.
While the Helmet is appropriate on some bulky offense teams, e.g. Medi + Volc core à la SM OU, Leftovers is a poor pivot in the long term. Landorus is still prone to Toxic, Scald burns, Knock Off, or just consistent chip on the switch while Corviknight sits on Lando all day and Pressure stalls its Toxic, Rocks, and Earthquake. Because of the aforementioned pivoting issues, Lando rarely finds turns to recover significantly with Leftovers while longer-term win conditions emerge on the opponent's side. And as mentioned before, slower defensive sets can be easily OHKO or 2HKOd by Ash-Greninja and other common offensive threats.


Nuke sets are great and net important surprise KOs against the fat that Scarf struggles so much with.


So I think metagame shifts this generation towards Teleport + Corviknight + Mega Latias balance and semi-stall disfavor Landorus. In practice, it's still a great pick that can perform in almost any matchup; however it requires a higher skill level to stay ahead of these fatter cores momentum-wise.

Finishing the Clef nom later but Adsam more or less said it

 

[Oculars]

Totally agree with the above statements on Clef, as I had it in my personal VR i believe this rise is warranted


Clefbale from A+ to S
not going to comment on lando but clef has solidified itself as one of the most splashable two way mons that provides incredible defensive utility, the ability to pick between magic guard to deal with fatter teams or unaware to counter setup along with being a very strong wincon using calm mind and choosing from its amazing coverage and Z moves or even simply annoying teams with wish port, this thing can status you, knock you, get up rocks, provide cleric support, slow pivot on switches, it does it all... Almost every team can fit some form of a clef and get decent utility out of it from the most stall oriented teams to HO's. Mono Fairy is incredibly strong typing only weak to poison and steel neither of which is an easy offensive typing to break with. The combination of all these beneficial factors, the ability to choose between all sorts of defensive and offensive sets, excellent typing and two stellar abilities makes Clefbale the real most splashable mon in the tier.

 

[MudkipBeans]

Hey everyone! The metagame has finally reached a place that we think is very stable and expresses each mon's viability well, so we thought it fitting to do a VR update to sort everything nicely.

Rises:

Diancie-Mega from B+ to A-
Serperior from B+ tp A-
Amoonguss from B to B+
Ditto from B to B+
Skarmory from B to B+
Volcarona from B to B+
Zeraora from B- to B
Slowking-Galar from C to B-
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike from C to B-
Tapu Bulu from C to B-

Drops:

Ferrothorn from A+ to A
Scizor-Mega from A+ to A
Medicham-Mega from A to A-
Slowbro from A to A-
Blissey from A- to B+
Zapdos from A- to B+
Dracozolt from B- to C
Moltres from B- to C
Venusuar-Mega from B- to C
Zapdos-Galar from B- to C
Hippowdon from C to UR
Mantine from C to UR
Pinsir-Mega from C to UR
Suicune from C to UR

As of late these two have been feeling more like fake checks to things, with Ferrothorn not being a resist to grass types at all due to the fighting weakness, not a good Greninja switchin due to Dark Pulses nasty flinch rate, and not a good psychic check with its weakness to fighting once again. However, it still possess the incredible Spikes, which coincedentally also are everywhere and cause Mega Scizor's viability to be hampered, since running a good defog mon with Scizor is almost necessary, and running the best one, Corviknight, causes Magnezone problems. It still possesses great walling potential and a strong Bullet Punch to revenge kill.

Nowadays it is even easier to out offense Medicham, and it has a nasty problem of dealing with the chip damage so readily dished out by the common Spikes. Some more popular hyper offense teams easily outspeed it and don't give it any oppurtunity to switch in, with it's strong Fake Out sometimes being a liability vs the Volcarona these teams use to check strong grass types. Ice Punch and High Jump Kick 50/50s can also be crucial vs Bulky offense teams, and getting the turn wrong can be detrimental.

These grass types have risen up and shown themselves to possess very solid support capabilities, with Serperior's Glare being key to enabling many strategies on Hyper Offense or Bulky Offense, and Tapu Bulu provides Grassy Terrain and it's great typing to check various electrics and waters, notably Greninja-Ash.

And a few more changes as well, that I won't delve into cuz I'm lazy but feel free to ask questions about them here!

 

[Avery]

Quick little update to welcome 23Gz, R8, ppödd, and Chazm to the VR Council! With the metagame constantly evolving, especially with the current Blaziken test, we wanted to make sure we had plenty of different viewpoints to shape a more accurate VR. Be sure to congratulate these four people!

 

[LightNox]

I understand all of the rises except specifically the Urshifu-R which I don't really understand. Can maybe explain it a bit.

 

[The Dragon Master]

I understand all of the rises except specifically the Urshifu-R which I don't really understand. Can maybe explain it a bit.

Moist Shifu has risen a bit to become a fairly decent wallbreaker, the fall of slowbro has really helped it as that means the number of Pokemon that can tank its stabs+ future sight is very low rn, obviously it's not exactly a top tier wallbreaker bc of average speed and a reliance on FS to break things like pex, but the high power of its stabs gives it a place in B-

 

[LightNox]

Moist Shifu has risen a bit to become a fairly decent wallbreaker, the fall of slowbro has really helped it as that means the number of Pokemon that can tank its stabs+ future sight is very low rn, obviously it's not exactly a top tier wallbreaker bc of average speed and a reliance on FS to break things like pex, but the high power of its stabs gives it a place in B-

Thanks for explaining it

 

[Kyo]

Mega Latios being at C rank is a complete joke and just a bit insulting to this excellent mon. I feel the current ranking does not demonstrate the viability of Mega Latios so much as it demonstrates how overshadowed it is by Mega Latias in the eyes of the playerbase. For that reason I'd like to nominate Mega Latios to B-. Tbh I feel that this mon is worthy of B rank but I'll be conservative with my nomination. I imagine in most cases, no consideration is given to this mon when building because Latias is viewed as offering nearly the same thing with an arguably better stat distribution. CM Mega Latias is incredibly potent. However, the niche for Latios lies in its immediate power whereas Latias typically needs one to two turns of setup before it can pose a threat. The opportunity cost of using Mega Latios over Mega Latias is greatly diminished when you actually build towards its strengths.



Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Recover
- Aura Sphere
- Substitute

After doing some thorough testing of Mega Latios, the above set is the one I've come to favor the most. Psychic/Fighting is a dangerous combination of coverage that threatens the majority of relevant NatDex mons. Hitting off of a 160 sp att stat, there are very limited switchins to this mon. Despite having the same type coverage as CM Mega Latias, this mon is able to bypass a lot of the popular checks to Latias. Aura sphere 2hkos bulky Mega Ttar and 1hkos banded Ttar making Latios much less susceptable to pursuit trapping. Psychic has a 78% chance to 2hko standard Clefable. It also cleanly 3hkos spdef Tapu fini so, similar to CM Mega Latias, you will be able to 1v1 this mon on the switch in. Instead of running a third attack, I prefer substitute on Mega Latios. This lets you abuse several common soft checks to Mega Latias including: ignoring status Heatran/Ferrothorn, preventing Toxapex from tanking a hit and landing toxic, scouting sucker punch from Mega Mawile and Bisharp such that you have a good chance of beating them 1v1, and bypassing strategies involving teleporting with slowtwins into a pursuit trapper or faster Lati killer. Substitute provides safe scouting and makes it much more difficult for your opponent to sack a mon to get in their pursuit trapper unscathed. Mega Latias is not capable of reaping the same benefits of this subtitute set. It has to either choose between sub CM with only a psychic attack leaving it walled by too many mons and helpless against pursuiting dark types or using a two attacks sub set that is too weak to achieve vital damage rolls.

The best way of using this Mega Latios is with one or both of the relevant types of trapping in NatDex: Magnet Pull and Pursuit. Both provide excellent support in their own ways. Pursuit trapping removes psychic types and Aegislash which are the only mons that can resist psychic/fighting coverage bar Mega Sableye (and I guess Spiritomb) which beat both Mega Latis regardless. It also deals nicely with Blissey/Chansey (and the very niche Mantine) which otherwise tank hits from Latios with ease. Magnet Pull Magnezone on the other hand traps two very important counters in Corviknight and Mega Scizor, both of which will tank hits from and uturn on Mega Latios. In lieu of Magnezone, mystical fire can be used as a third attack to 2hko and 1hko the aforementioned mons although I don't personally like this set.

tldr; Mega Latios is way underrated. It occupies a very separate niche from Mega Latias and ranking it in C is crazy​

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Mega Latios being at C rank is a complete joke and just a bit insulting to this excellent mon. I feel the current ranking does not demonstrate the viability of Mega Latios so much as it demonstrates how overshadowed it is by Mega Latias in the eyes of the playerbase. For that reason I'd like to nominate Mega Latios to B-. Tbh I feel that this mon is worthy of B rank but I'll be conservative with my nomination. I imagine in most cases, no consideration is given to this mon when building because Latias is viewed as offering nearly the same thing with an arguably better stat distribution. CM Mega Latias is incredibly potent. However, the niche for Latios lies in its immediate power whereas Latias typically needs one to two turns of setup before it can pose a threat. The opportunity cost of using Mega Latios over Mega Latias is greatly diminished when you actually build towards its strengths.



Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Recover
- Aura Sphere
- Substitute

After doing some thorough testing of Mega Latios, the above set is the one I've come to favor the most. Psychic/Fighting is a dangerous combination of coverage that threatens the majority of relevant NatDex mons. Hitting off of a 160 sp att stat, there are very limited switchins to this mon. Despite having the same type coverage as CM Mega Latias, this mon is able to bypass a lot of the popular checks to Latias. Aura sphere 2hkos bulky Mega Ttar and 1hkos banded Ttar making Latios much less susceptable to pursuit trapping. Psychic has a 78% chance to 2hko standard Clefable. It also cleanly 3hkos spdef Tapu fini so, similar to CM Mega Latias, you will be able to 1v1 this mon on the switch in. Instead of running a third attack, I prefer substitute on Mega Latios. This lets you abuse several common soft checks to Mega Latias including: ignoring status Heatran/Ferrothorn, preventing Toxapex from tanking a hit and landing toxic, scouting sucker punch from Mega Mawile and Bisharp such that you have a good chance of beating them 1v1, and bypassing strategies involving teleporting with slowtwins into a pursuit trapper or faster Lati killer. Substitute provides safe scouting and makes it much more difficult for your opponent to sack a mon to get in their pursuit trapper unscathed. Mega Latias is not capable of reaping the same benefits of this subtitute set. It has to either choose between sub CM with only a psychic attack leaving it walled by too many mons and helpless against pursuiting dark types or using a two attacks sub set that is too weak to achieve vital damage rolls.

The best way of using this Mega Latios is with one or both of the relevant types of trapping in NatDex: Magnet Pull and Pursuit. Both provide excellent support in their own ways. Pursuit trapping removes psychic types and Aegislash which are the only mons that can resist psychic/fighting coverage bar Mega Sableye (and I guess Spiritomb) which beat both Mega Latis regardless. It also deals nicely with Blissey/Chansey (and the very niche Mantine) which otherwise tank hits from Latios with ease. Magnet Pull Magnezone on the other hand traps two very important counters in Corviknight and Mega Scizor, both of which will tank hits from and uturn on Mega Latios. In lieu of Magnezone, mystical fire can be used as a third attack to 2hko and 1hko the aforementioned mons although I don't personally like this set.

tldr; Mega Latios is way underrated. It occupies a very separate niche from Mega Latias and ranking it in C is crazy​

you just said that it should be used with magnezone and pursuit. needing 2 extra mons to use mega latios limits creativity.
and, a pokemon in C may actually be better than those in higher tiers but often need too much support to function. While you explained it was good, you never said it didn't need lots of support to function, in fact you really said that it DID need lots of support to function. the reasoning you gave for mega latios very well fit that description. Remember, a pokemon in c may be better than a pokemon in a higher tier.

 

[Kyo]

you just said that it should be used with magnezone and pursuit. needing 2 extra mons to use mega latios limits creativity.
and, a pokemon in C may actually be better than those in higher tiers but often need too much support to function. While you explained it was good, you never said it didn't need lots of support to function, in fact you really said that it DID need lots of support to function. the reasoning you gave for mega latios very well fit that description. Remember, a pokemon in c may be better than a pokemon in a higher tier.

I said it is best used with one of two trapping options and certainly both on the same team is not necessary. I also mentioned a third option of using Mega Latios with mystical fire to avoid needing Magnezone on the team. Reading comprehension is down the drain apparently.

 

[Lupla]

you just said that it should be used with magnezone and pursuit. needing 2 extra mons to use mega latios limits creativity.
and, a pokemon in C may actually be better than those in higher tiers but often need too much support to function. While you explained it was good, you never said it didn't need lots of support to function, in fact you really said that it DID need lots of support to function. the reasoning you gave for mega latios very well fit that description. Remember, a pokemon in c may be better than a pokemon in a higher tier.

The support needed for this mentioned set can be just one of them, not a single moment was the word "mandatory" mentioned in regards on it, while both of them can be kind of restrictive they are still an option regardless. Pokemon in C are often the ones that are on a tough spot not only because of the required support in order to make them work but they also have the flaws of their playstyles being specific, better options or the flaws are often because of their weakness and even then every pokemon needs some form of high support with the difference that some are much more rewarding than others. Mega Latios on this case can bring some decent benefits on the table if his problematic Matchups are decently covered (Steels neutral to Aura Sphere, Bulky Psychics and a few more similar to Mega Latias), these ones are with the downside of having some restricting builds that in order to cover them up aside from the main ones, require some time to think about it (such as a problematic Corviknight Matchup if going alongside Weavile). This leaves Mega Latios lower due to being much difficult to play and build but the ups can be game breaking and also tournament worthy with careful thinking and building compared to mons higher and easier to use. B- Seems like a good fit as just like it was mentioned, its really underrated and often ignored due to Mega Latias and his pros are worth enough of a decent spot in the current metagame.

 

[NuttyRabbit]

In lieu of a larger slate, I wanted to make a quick nomination before the rankings shift from the Blaziken drop

B -> B- : Zard-X just feels like it's in a really awkward spot right now and I think it's really deserving of a drop right now for a reasons.

1. 4MSS


To start, let's look at probably its biggest issue: it has terrible 4MSS. It's always had that issue granted, but it feels even worse now since the standard DD sets really, really want DD/Blitz/Claw/T-punch/EQ/Roost. Sadly since it only has 4 moveslots, it's often forced to sacrifice essential coverage, with no T-punch leaving it extremely vulnerable to Fini/Slowtwins/Pex (though it can be covered with EQ), no EQ leaving it open to Pex (Can be covered with T-punch)/Heatran, no D-Claw making it struggle heavily vs Garchomp/Latis/Hydreigon/Kommo-o, and no Roost basically forcing it to be half a mon thanks to that awful 4x rocks weakness.

Of course, one could forego DD and just go with a 3a Roost set but that still both runs into 4MSS and makes it even easier to deal with owing to its cramped speed tier and extremely awkward defensive typing.

2. Defensive typing/Setup opportunities

Actually, let's talk about that typing for a moment. In a metagame where practically every team is required to have a Ground and almost every team has some sort of Fairy type, being weak to the former and outright neutral to the latter is incredibly awkward, meaning that Zard finds itself in an incredibly awkward defensive position, especially if it hasn't evolved yet, essentially having to get into a 50/50 with the likes of Gliscor/Lando and finding exactly the right time to set up/Mega without getting completely blown the fuck up (That is of course assuming that Lando isn't Stone Edge or Toxic. Nor does it take into account that every other Ground type basically shits on it either via status or just blowing it up with Z.). And once it does Mega, while it does lose that 4x rocks weakness, it is now not only still weak to rocks, but also weak to every other hazard, meaning that something like a Gren Spike or Pex T-Spike is a major problem for it. And remember that Fairy neutrality? Yeah, every Fairy type threatens to 3HKO you or even 2HKO you with their STABs from full so setting up in front of them is a gamble, a gamble which can either leave you dead or leave them dead but you in revenge killing range.

In fact, Zard-X finds it hard to set up on anything at all, with the Electric types it could set up on in theory either 2HKOing it (Koko T-bolt has a chance to 2HKO in terrain and Gleam always 2HKO so even if you are just 1v1ing and set up, you need EQ to not end up dangerously low from Blitz but going EQ means that you're now SOL vs bulky Waters and Dragons) throwing off a Toxic (Zeraora), or having a chance to just utterly cripple you by spamming their STAB (Zapdos. You have to be insanely lucky to set up vs Zapdos without eating a para). But what about the Grass types that Zard 4x resists? Most of the Grass types in the tier have something that can essentially force you to attack them immediately (Amoong Spore, Tang Sleep Powder, Ferro Leech/occasional T-wave, Serp Glare which it can just get off in a 1v1). In fact, the only Grass type you set up on is Rillaboom, but you gotta get it in via slow pivoting or else you risk getting U-turned on.

I could go on and on about how hard Zard finds it to really set up and cover all its bases in this metagame, but I think that's redundant. Instead, I just want to quickly wrap this up by talking about the teams it fits on and comparing it to its older brother.

3. Team Structures

Zard-X, like Zard-Y, requires immense team support to really function, owing to both its crippling rocks weakness and its 4MSS requiring it to have support to remove the stuff that beats it. However, unlike Zard-Y, which can more than get away with just having Pursuit support from the likes of Weavile or T-tar to remove the Lati twins and pressure the likes of Pex, as well as double Defog, Zard simultaneously needs all of that and mons that can pressure whatever is walling this particular Zard-X set and get it in safely and give it set up oppourtunities. Now granted this usually doesn't mean a metric ton more support is needed for X than Y but it requires a more thoughtful level of team support than the relatively simple Zard-Y structures and thus limiting the kinds of teams it can really fit onto

Now you may be thinking "Well why not just slap this thing on HO? After all, it's got nuclear STABs, Dragon Dance, and good enough bulk to set up behind the likes of Screens?". Ignoring the Rocks weakness which practically mandates either a Taunt suicide lead or Drill lead so you're not coming in at 50% (Which even then won't always work), ignoring the issues brought up in regards to defensive typing and awkwardness with Grounds/Fairies/Grasses and ignoring the fact that its main STAB nuke basically requires it to kill itself (Flare Blitz), it faces heavy competition for the Mega slot with Mega Chomp/Gyara/Scizor and as a Fire type setup sweeper with Volcarona and Blaziken, two pokemon who, while having their own issues, can both hold items, have less severe 4MSS (which is insane to say but it's true), don't take up your Mega slot, and at least in Volc's case, have far more ample opportunities to set up.

4. Zard-X vs Zard-Y

Finally, let's talk about the elephant in room: How does it compare to Zard-Y? To be frank, I think Zard-Y is just better right now. While Zard-Y can't abuse DD as readily as its counterpart, it makes up for that in 2 key areas: coverage and STAB. To start with coverage, since it doesn't have to run DD and thanks to Drought, Zard-Y can run Fire/Grass/Ground or Fighting coverage pretty freely, meaning that it doesn't have to worry about picking and choosing what it can beat. Not only that, but said coverage hits a large swath of the metagame neutrally at worst, really only missing the Latis and Pelipper to effectively wall out its STABs (Pelipper only because it negates Solar Beam. Even Hydreigon has to fear a Focus Blast in case you were wondering). In addition, its STAB is far, far more spammable, with Flamethrower not only having good PP, but also unlike Blitz, not having recoil, meaning that you don't have to worry about dying vs Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. Of course you can change up the STAB to the more inaccurate, less PP having Fire Blast which, while having issues of its own, acts as a nuke in the vein of Flare Blitz without again, that nasty recoil. I would say Weather Ball is even an option but Weather Ball sucks, don't use it.

Zard-Y is also far harder to deal with than X thanks to both its spammable STAB and better coverage, leaving most teams relying on the likes of Pex/Latis/Kommo-o to deal with it, with Pex being the most consistent one since Latis get trapped by the Pursuit coverage Zard is always packing and Kommo-o just gets worn down over time. Contrast this with Zard-X whose checks/counters are more numerous, depend on its coverage, and it can find itself killing itself just to get past them .

All of these qualities make Zard-Y just a better, more consistent mon. And consistent is really the key word because that's what Zard-X lacks here.

5. Conclusion

Compared to its brother or even the other mons in B, Zard-X lacks consistency. Something like Chansey, while niche and only really fitting on Stall or hyper fat teams, will almost always do a good job of walling out special attackers. Mew, while weird and not the most splashable, will always do its job as a suicide lead or check to Fightings or even a Spiker (Spikes Mew is cool guys), and even stuff like Rotom-W, while not the best Water rn, is very consistent in its ability to soft check Grounds, pivot around, throw out Wisps, etc. In general, the mons in B are sort of defined by being niche and only fitting on certain kinds of teams, but doing really well on those builds and fulfilling their niche well, and honestly, I don't see Zard-X as being among them.

I think it fits better amongst the mons of B-, mons which, while also being defined as fitting on specific structures, find their structures a bit more niche or find themselves not being as consistent as those in the ranks above. I think Zard-X fits perfectly here, as while it can be a devastating breaker in the right situations and can find itself working on some BO or even HO builds, it's not as consistent in this role as say, Zard-Y or Bisharp or Mega Gyarados.

TL; DR : Zard- X should drop to B- because it has major 4MSS, defensive typing, and general consistency issues and is just kind of overshadowed by both Zard-Y and pretty much everything in B rank

God that was long and kinda rambly, but I hope you all liked it!

 

[Jordy]

this post is to regain the likes i lost because my OP was robbed

 

[Jordy]

thank u in advance

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

In lieu of a larger slate, I wanted to make a quick nomination before the rankings shift from the Blaziken drop

B -> B- : Zard-X just feels like it's in a really awkward spot right now and I think it's really deserving of a drop right now for a reasons.

1. 4MSS


To start, let's look at probably its biggest issue: it has terrible 4MSS. It's always had that issue granted, but it feels even worse now since the standard DD sets really, really want DD/Blitz/Claw/T-punch/EQ/Roost. Sadly since it only has 4 moveslots, it's often forced to sacrifice essential coverage, with no T-punch leaving it extremely vulnerable to Fini/Slowtwins/Pex (though it can be covered with EQ), no EQ leaving it open to Pex (Can be covered with T-punch)/Heatran, no D-Claw making it struggle heavily vs Garchomp/Latis/Hydreigon/Kommo-o, and no Roost basically forcing it to be half a mon thanks to that awful 4x rocks weakness.

Of course, one could forego DD and just go with a 3a Roost set but that still both runs into 4MSS and makes it even easier to deal with owing to its cramped speed tier and extremely awkward defensive typing.

2. Defensive typing/Setup opportunities

Actually, let's talk about that typing for a moment. In a metagame where practically every team is required to have a Ground and almost every team has some sort of Fairy type, being weak to the former and outright neutral to the latter is incredibly awkward, meaning that Zard finds itself in an incredibly awkward defensive position, especially if it hasn't evolved yet, essentially having to get into a 50/50 with the likes of Gliscor/Lando and finding exactly the right time to set up/Mega without getting completely blown the fuck up (That is of course assuming that Lando isn't Stone Edge or Toxic. Nor does it take into account that every other Ground type basically shits on it either via status or just blowing it up with Z.). And once it does Mega, while it does lose that 4x rocks weakness, it is now not only still weak to rocks, but also weak to every other hazard, meaning that something like a Gren Spike or Pex T-Spike is a major problem for it. And remember that Fairy neutrality? Yeah, every Fairy type threatens to 3HKO you or even 2HKO you with their STABs from full so setting up in front of them is a gamble, a gamble which can either leave you dead or leave them dead but you in revenge killing range.

In fact, Zard-X finds it hard to set up on anything at all, with the Electric types it could set up on in theory either 2HKOing it (Koko T-bolt has a chance to 2HKO in terrain and Gleam always 2HKO so even if you are just 1v1ing and set up, you need EQ to not end up dangerously low from Blitz but going EQ means that you're now SOL vs bulky Waters and Dragons) throwing off a Toxic (Zeraora), or having a chance to just utterly cripple you by spamming their STAB (Zapdos. You have to be insanely lucky to set up vs Zapdos without eating a para). But what about the Grass types that Zard 4x resists? Most of the Grass types in the tier have something that can essentially force you to attack them immediately (Amoong Spore, Tang Sleep Powder, Ferro Leech/occasional T-wave, Serp Glare which it can just get off in a 1v1). In fact, the only Grass type you set up on is Rillaboom, but you gotta get it in via slow pivoting or else you risk getting U-turned on.

I could go on and on about how hard Zard finds it to really set up and cover all its bases in this metagame, but I think that's redundant. Instead, I just want to quickly wrap this up by talking about the teams it fits on and comparing it to its older brother.

3. Team Structures

Zard-X, like Zard-Y, requires immense team support to really function, owing to both its crippling rocks weakness and its 4MSS requiring it to have support to remove the stuff that beats it. However, unlike Zard-Y, which can more than get away with just having Pursuit support from the likes of Weavile or T-tar to remove the Lati twins and pressure the likes of Pex, as well as double Defog, Zard simultaneously needs all of that and mons that can pressure whatever is walling this particular Zard-X set and get it in safely and give it set up oppourtunities. Now granted this usually doesn't mean a metric ton more support is needed for X than Y but it requires a more thoughtful level of team support than the relatively simple Zard-Y structures and thus limiting the kinds of teams it can really fit onto

Now you may be thinking "Well why not just slap this thing on HO? After all, it's got nuclear STABs, Dragon Dance, and good enough bulk to set up behind the likes of Screens?". Ignoring the Rocks weakness which practically mandates either a Taunt suicide lead or Drill lead so you're not coming in at 50% (Which even then won't always work), ignoring the issues brought up in regards to defensive typing and awkwardness with Grounds/Fairies/Grasses and ignoring the fact that its main STAB nuke basically requires it to kill itself (Flare Blitz), it faces heavy competition for the Mega slot with Mega Chomp/Gyara/Scizor and as a Fire type setup sweeper with Volcarona and Blaziken, two pokemon who, while having their own issues, can both hold items, have less severe 4MSS (which is insane to say but it's true), don't take up your Mega slot, and at least in Volc's case, have far more ample opportunities to set up.

4. Zard-X vs Zard-Y

Finally, let's talk about the elephant in room: How does it compare to Zard-Y? To be frank, I think Zard-Y is just better right now. While Zard-Y can't abuse DD as readily as its counterpart, it makes up for that in 2 key areas: coverage and STAB. To start with coverage, since it doesn't have to run DD and thanks to Drought, Zard-Y can run Fire/Grass/Ground or Fighting coverage pretty freely, meaning that it doesn't have to worry about picking and choosing what it can beat. Not only that, but said coverage hits a large swath of the metagame neutrally at worst, really only missing the Latis and Pelipper to effectively wall out its STABs (Pelipper only because it negates Solar Beam. Even Hydreigon has to fear a Focus Blast in case you were wondering). In addition, its STAB is far, far more spammable, with Flamethrower not only having good PP, but also unlike Blitz, not having recoil, meaning that you don't have to worry about dying vs Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. Of course you can change up the STAB to the more inaccurate, less PP having Fire Blast which, while having issues of its own, acts as a nuke in the vein of Flare Blitz without again, that nasty recoil. I would say Weather Ball is even an option but Weather Ball sucks, don't use it.

Zard-Y is also far harder to deal with than X thanks to both its spammable STAB and better coverage, leaving most teams relying on the likes of Pex/Latis/Kommo-o to deal with it, with Pex being the most consistent one since Latis get trapped by the Pursuit coverage Zard is always packing and Kommo-o just gets worn down over time. Contrast this with Zard-X whose checks/counters are more numerous, depend on its coverage, and it can find itself killing itself just to get past them .

All of these qualities make Zard-Y just a better, more consistent mon. And consistent is really the key word because that's what Zard-X lacks here.

5. Conclusion

Compared to its brother or even the other mons in B, Zard-X lacks consistency. Something like Chansey, while niche and only really fitting on Stall or hyper fat teams, will almost always do a good job of walling out special attackers. Mew, while weird and not the most splashable, will always do its job as a suicide lead or check to Fightings or even a Spiker (Spikes Mew is cool guys), and even stuff like Rotom-W, while not the best Water rn, is very consistent in its ability to soft check Grounds, pivot around, throw out Wisps, etc. In general, the mons in B are sort of defined by being niche and only fitting on certain kinds of teams, but doing really well on those builds and fulfilling their niche well, and honestly, I don't see Zard-X as being among them.

I think it fits better amongst the mons of B-, mons which, while also being defined as fitting on specific structures, find their structures a bit more niche or find themselves not being as consistent as those in the ranks above. I think Zard-X fits perfectly here, as while it can be a devastating breaker in the right situations and can find itself working on some BO or even HO builds, it's not as consistent in this role as say, Zard-Y or Bisharp or Mega Gyarados.

TL; DR : Zard- X should drop to B- because it has major 4MSS, defensive typing, and general consistency issues and is just kind of overshadowed by both Zard-Y and pretty much everything in B rank

God that was long and kinda rambly, but I hope you all liked it!

agree with everything in this post, I can't think of much argument AGAINST what you posted, I feel like Xzard is fantastic on screens but thats just a specific archetype and the screen setters of our world aren't great.

 

[NuttyRabbit]

agree with everything in this post, I can't think of much argument AGAINST what you posted, I feel like Xzard is fantastic on screens but thats just a specific archetype and the screen setters of our world aren't great.

Okay I'm actually going to be a bit pedantic and say that Zard actually doesn't do great on HO and it's not for the reasons you listed.

To start, we actually have some really solid Screens setters between Grimmsnarl and Tapu Koko, each of them fulfilling different niches as screeners and doing them consistently well. In addition, there's underexplored options for Screeners like Xatu, Azelf and Uxie just to name some off the top of my head (If anyone wants I can go into their possible niches as screeners but that's not the point of this). Point is, Screens has good setters and that doesn't contribute to Zard's issues on HO.

No, what Zard's issue on HO is that, owing to its defensive typing and inability to hold Boots, it practically mandates a Drill lead, and while Drill is a good lead, it also has some pretty glaring issues and the inability of Zard-X HO teams to really use anything else (and the fact that Drill can't always get rid of Rocks) is a major detriment to both the team and Zard itself especially, since that can cut severely into its sweeping potential. Not only that, but it still has 4MSS since while it could run STABs+coverage, that can still leave it walled by certain things, plus given its issues with Rocks it could really want to run Roost which only exacerbates the issue.

But even outside of issues specific to Zard, it also faces heavy competition on HO from other Megas like Mega Gyarados, Mega Garchomp, and even Mega Scizor, all of whom aren't cripplingly Rocks weak, bring far better defensive potential, don't have terrible 4MSS, or a combination of the above. In addition, it also runs into heavy competition as a Fire type sweeper on HO from both Blaziken, which while shaky as an HO sweeper itself isn't Rocks weak, doesn't take up a Mega slot, and can even fit stuff like Z moves, and of course, from Volcarona, a mon which, while having 4MSS of its own to a degree, isn't nearly as bad as Zard and can run Boots to avoid having to worry about Rocks.

I know this is a rather pedantic point to argue, but I felt it was necessary to point all of this out as someone who builds and uses a lot of HO. Zard can work on the archetype don't get me wrong but it has a lot going against it there

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Okay I'm actually going to be a bit pedantic and say that Zard actually doesn't do great on HO and it's not for the reasons you listed.

To start, we actually have some really solid Screens setters between Grimmsnarl and Tapu Koko, each of them fulfilling different niches as screeners and doing them consistently well. In addition, there's underexplored options for Screeners like Xatu, Azelf and Uxie just to name some off the top of my head (If anyone wants I can go into their possible niches as screeners but that's not the point of this). Point is, Screens has good setters and that doesn't contribute to Zard's issues on HO.

No, what Zard's issue on HO is that, owing to its defensive typing and inability to hold Boots, it practically mandates a Drill lead, and while Drill is a good lead, it also has some pretty glaring issues and the inability of Zard-X HO teams to really use anything else (and the fact that Drill can't always get rid of Rocks) is a major detriment to both the team and Zard itself especially, since that can cut severely into its sweeping potential. Not only that, but it still has 4MSS since while it could run STABs+coverage, that can still leave it walled by certain things, plus given its issues with Rocks it could really want to run Roost which only exacerbates the issue.

But even outside of issues specific to Zard, it also faces heavy competition on HO from other Megas like Mega Gyarados, Mega Garchomp, and even Mega Scizor, all of whom aren't cripplingly Rocks weak, bring far better defensive potential, don't have terrible 4MSS, or a combination of the above. In addition, it also runs into heavy competition as a Fire type sweeper on HO from both Blaziken, which while shaky as an HO sweeper itself isn't Rocks weak, doesn't take up a Mega slot, and can even fit stuff like Z moves, and of course, from Volcarona, a mon which, while having 4MSS of its own to a degree, isn't nearly as bad as Zard and can run Boots to avoid having to worry about Rocks.

I know this is a rather pedantic point to argue, but I felt it was necessary to point all of this out as someone who builds and uses a lot of HO. Zard can work on the archetype don't get me wrong but it has a lot going against it there

yeah sorry about that, I switched it out for megados on my screens HO and it was pretty good, by this point im not gonna argue, not because I give up, but because there is no argument against the drop

 

[R8]

Only one nom for now:

to UR.
In this post, i'll go over the three niches Pyukumuku is supposed to have on stall, and why it doesn't really fulfill them.

1.Manaphy check
Pyukumuku is supposed to be a Manaphy check, but there are two problems with that:

- Manaphy commonly runs Energy Ball. While this move does not achieve the 2hko even physically defensive variants, Pyukumuku is just forced to click Recover, until it doesn't have PPs anymore. Even if you go full spdef, you're always one spdef drop away from losing, which usually eventually happen, since how freely Manaphy can spam Energy Ball against you.

Calcs

180+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 136-160 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
180+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. -1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 154-182 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

- Pyukumuku cause very annoying issues in the builder when it comes to finding a check to the other rain behemoth, M-Swampert. All M-Swampert checks either create some overlapping/role compression issues (like Alomomola or physically defensive Gastrodon), already check Manaphy (like Shedinja or Mantine), or just don't fit on stall (Tangrowth). This issue is worsen by the fact that Pyukumuku doesn't check a significant portion of the metagame, and thus does not check enough to be worth the slot it takes on the team.

You're maybe thinking that Physically defensive Pyukumuku could be a decent check to M-Swampert, but M-Swampert just eventually win just by spamming Flip Turn: while one Flip Turn already pushes it into Energy Ball range, three min rolls Flip Turn from Jolly are enough to push Pyukumuku towards Earthquake range (This is obviously even worse with an Adamant nature). Usually not much else on Pyukumuku Stall wants to eat rain boosted Flip Turns either (Skarmory is immediately in Waterfall range after one Flip Turn.)

Calcs

After three min roll Flip Turns and Leftovers recovery:
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 109-130 (34.7 - 41.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 103-123 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO

2.Trapper
Pyukumuku's second niche comes with its ability to trap and PP stall or Toxic stall certain passive mons, thus forcing progress for its team. Being able to force progress is a much appreciated ability on Stall, since this playstyle can sometimes struggle to effectively pose a threat to the opposing team. However, Pyukumuku is both inefficient and outclassed at this role.

Inefficiency
First, Pyukumuku is limited by a minor 4 moveslots syndrom: it wants to run Block and Recover, of course, but also Spite, Toxic, Soak, Rest and Gastro Acid. However, this is not its main issue at all, but i wanted to mention it anyway.
The main reason why Pyukumuku is inefficient is its inability to force any form of progress to two huge annoyances to Stall, being Taunt Heatran and Tapu Fini ; those two can switch into any move Pyukumuku could possibly run, shut it down immediately with Taunt and accumulate Leftovers recovery turns, effectively denying the progress the team may have made against them. Steels in generals are annoying ; MMawile can switch into it and immediately pose a threat to Pyukumuku, unless MMawile switched into Gastro Acid or Soak, in which case it could just immediately switch out. Ferrothorn and Melmetal can be annoying with Toxic and supereffective moves, or in Ferrothorn's case, trade trapping attempts with hazards, which is something stall usually doesn't want. Sure, M-Sableye can deny Ferrothorn as well, but the threats of hazards (which can be sometimes a bit tricky to remove once they're on the field) is enough to make Pyukumuku think before attempting to trap Ferrothorn.
Pyukumuku is also dead weight in mirror stall MUs, since M-Sableye hardwall it completely, and can bounce back Block, which would be an absolute disaster for Pyukumuku.

Better options
Stall has better options to force progress ; as a trapper, Taunt + Fire Spin Hydreigon and even fucking Perish Trap Azumarill are much more consistent at doing progress against defensive cores, and are usually very rarely stone walled, while providing superior defensive utility. Beside trappers, Stall can also use Spikes Skarmory, or straight wallbreakers and/or win conditions, such as SD Gliscor, Corviknight, Clefable, or even niche picks like Melmetal and Weavile. Even walls not dedicated to that kind of roles aren't completly useless against steels and Tapu Fini, and usually can do at least a little something against them, which in my opinion make Pyukumuku's case even worse.

3.Unaware user
The last role Pyukumu is supposed to fulfill is being an unaware user. Unfortunately, Pyukumuku is largely outclassed by the two other main Unaware users on stall, being Bibarel and Cosmog Quagsire and Clefable.

Like Pyukumuku, Quagsire is capable to check certain niche physical fire-type wallbreakers that otherwise threaten stall in DD M-Charizard X and Blaziken. However, Quagsire differentiate itself in its Ground typing, allowing it to, among other things, block Volt Switch (and thus acting as a sturdy Magnezone counter), and its ability to dent a bit Tapu Fini on the switch, while acting as a soft, secondary Heatran check. Its access to Scald + Toxic + Earthquake allows it to be far less passive than Pyukumuku against the everpresents Steels.

Clefable, on the other hand, is basically one of the best Pokemon on stall. Between its incredible movepool, allowing it to act as a win condition with Calm Mind, its ability to choose between Flamethrower, Knock Off and the hard to fit on stall Heal Bell on its last slot, and excellent fairy typing, Clefable is obviously far superior as an Unaware user.

Outside of checking non EBall Mana and being a mediocre trapper, Pyukumuku doesn't have much to differentiate itself as an Unaware user.

Conclusion
Pyukumuku maybe had a niche when DD Dragapult was around, and when Manaphy mostly ran Psychic. However, in the current metagame, this is absolutely not the case, and Pyukumuku has no remaining distinct niche on stall, in my opinion. Even if this Pokemon works in a kind of unique way, it just doesn't do enough in one slot to be worth, and has plenty issues, creating more problems than it solves in a playstyle that already often has issues with role compression.

This is a shame, Pyukumuku is a Pokemon i personally really like, but alas, what has to be done has to be done. Sorry little sea cucumber, you won't be forgotten.