Resource National Dex Viability Rankings

[Chilli Dewd]

Hey good question, the biggest reason you’d use Machamp over Conq is the speed tier. Base 50 is an important benchmark for these guys. Machamp can run adamant and have 40 leftover evs that can be invested in bulk while still outspeeding adamant base 50s. This outspeeds a number of huge threats like corv, azu, mega mawhile, iron hands, gambit etc. This allows Machamp to get more attacks off and ultimately take less damage. They’re very similar in terms of stats, ig the big advantage conq has is Mach punch BUT in a sense bullet punch is better because it hits pult,torn, koko for neutral which can be handy for cleaning/revenge killing.

Wow, Im kinda impressed on how you described that, nicely done bro.

 

[EonDuoLatios]

Definitely not a loaded question:

Given that Mega Tyranocif can counter-team large portions of the metagame, such as Tornadus-T, Dragapult, Mega Charizard Y and even more if it chooses to run attacks like Ice Beam [hitting Great Tusk on the switch] or if it is facing a Choice locked Pokemon [such as Gholdengo and Lele], why is it merely B+?

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Definitely not a loaded question:

Given that Mega Tyranocif can counter-team large portions of the metagame, such as Tornadus-T, Dragapult, Mega Charizard Y and even more if it chooses to run attacks like Ice Beam [hitting Great Tusk on the switch] or if it is facing a Choice locked Pokemon [such as Gholdengo and Lele], why is it merely B+?

Maybe cuz while it can check those mons, and it is quite bulky even in this hard swinging meta, it is exploited by other mons like Zama or Great Tusk, who are often paired with Dragapult and Tornadus-T, and even its great bulk can only go so far, especially with its lack of recovery.

 

[Kyo]

Definitely not a loaded question:

Given that Mega Tyranocif can counter-team large portions of the metagame, such as Tornadus-T, Dragapult, Mega Charizard Y and even more if it chooses to run attacks like Ice Beam [hitting Great Tusk on the switch] or if it is facing a Choice locked Pokemon [such as Gholdengo and Lele], why is it merely B+?

Although MTar is great, it has significant longevity issues and tends to not be a 100% reliable answer to most of these mons. Torn and ZardY can both pack fighting coverage. ZardY in particular gets enough chip on switch in with weather ball or hazards to KO with focus blast immediately afterwards unless you dump all your EVs in bulk at the cost of offensive presence. It's also strapped for coverage when you dedicate two moveslots to stealth rocks and pursuit, meaning you usually have to take a tradeoff between beam or having fire coverage for Mega Sciz and Ferrothorn.

 

[adem]

vr takes
rises

-> a+

it being below a+ is super criminal in this economy, spikes are broken and its the most splashable rain check, idk maybe people arent using gyro on it but this mon is amazing. forcing stuff like tusk to trade if it wants to spin, and pressuring the tera water stuff that is usually doesnt beat is great.

-> a-

i feel like mega tar is vastly undervalued and underrated rn, with much better hazard control from last gen + dragapult existing, it being a non passive ghost resist w rocks too is incredible utility. tusk existing is annoying for it, sure, but tusk is very easy to pressure an not that hard to deal with since mtars best partner is torn anyways (and rotom). overall i think its a very splashable mon for the utility it offers, and performs it well.

weavile on the other hand loves the new meta changes, stuff like fini and skarm falling off the face of the earth, pex rlly only seen on bulkier playstyles, it loves it. pursuit is incredible in this meta, i cannot stress it enough, weavile doing things like say, pursuiting the clod once, or pursuiting the torn is what changes the game from being in “make progress mode” to ok time to sweep mode, if that makes sense. the mons pursuit’s hit incredibly hard, and is especially devastating to bulkier teams who are reliant on stuff like unaware and faster wincons rather than sheer facetanking to function. knock off is also especially broken in this boots economy, and clicking that move is freeer than its been like ever.

-> a-

this mon feels like the number one water rn, checking torn and dealing with dnite ape and mzor which both can easily get out of hand with one boost is rlly not realised i feel, and spreading burn itself is also amazing since nothing doesnt mind taking a wisp, mtias clef barely exists, pex is physdef and uncommon, super free move esp w the recovery nerf is amazing in the long run. it being a fogger that beats the more common rockers like lando tusk tar is also notable, im unsure why its so low tbh.

ok i dont have much opinion on rising anything lower im ngl, not enough to write a paragraph about it at least

drops

okok this is a bit controversial but like 40% of me agrees with this so i am putting it down here
-> a

ok just to preface i am not fully convinced of this myself, but every time i feel this more and more. tusk is an amazing mon, dont get me wrong, best spinner we’ve had in ages, a really great take on an offensive ground that still has utility, and isnt reliant on much. but i feel the mon is rlky 1 dimensional if its good, and not really that splashable or threatening enough to be a+. first off, i really dont rate defensive / booster / band / bu or w/e much at all, and think those are incredibly mickey sets, only seen some band stuff on sun be funny but then ur using sun, and even then i think normal w lefties or boots are better lol. lefties boots offensive utility is the main set im talking about, great mon but i feel like it clicking its stabs arent as easy as people make it out to be, and the fact that all 4 of its moves are already known on preview is very annoying. unless ur some insane breaker that 2hkoes resists or u can hit ghosts, cc is going to be a hard move to click on tusk, especially with how common torn and pult is. giving those essentially free turns really sucks, our ground immunes are also quite good into it, forcing u into spinner which is an ass move and easily abusable. spin is the biggest reason why its a i wld say bc i feel like its offensive capabilities are quite overrated, especially with torn on every other team lol

-> c, b- at best

i do not see why these mons are up this high, clef as an unaware now has 2 major competition which it is much worse at, it lacking the actual raw bulk to deal w threats nowadays combined w being forced into wishtect or moonlight (lol) sucks insane balls. i have never seen this mon do anything of note ever barring 1 time where it loaded into sub id press zama where it still nearly lost. donzo i do not see how this mon is good in both practice and on paper, abused incredibly hard by ferro rotom and gastro, knock bait, the moment spikes are set up this mon does not check anything and spends 80% of the match sleeping. really mediocre mon, can sometimes cheese out some wins but its really just that, cheese lol.


ok bai

 

[poop3]

-> a-

i feel like mega tar is vastly undervalued and underrated rn, with much better hazard control from last gen + dragapult existing, it being a non passive ghost resist w rocks too is incredible utility. tusk existing is annoying for it, sure, but tusk is very easy to pressure an not that hard to deal with since mtars best partner is torn anyways (and rotom). overall i think its a very splashable mon for the utility it offers, and performs it well.

Mega Tyranitar faces stiff competition from other Megas and base Tyranitar and the only niche it has is as the bulkiest, most KO resistant Pursuiter. But is that an important niche?

You go all in on Ghost busting at the expense of general utility offered by Mega Lopunny and Mega Scizor, who also have anti-Ghost tools (Scrappy, Pursuit, Knock Off). At +1 Speed, Mega Tyranitar is still slower than Mega Lopunny and Zamazenta; Mega Gyarados can at least outspeed these Pokemon and can ease setup before ME with a Fighting resistance and Intimidate.

Stone Edge as the primary STAB also means Mega Tyranitar is an inconsistent performer. When running Jolly, it's not that much stronger than Mega Garchomp under sand:

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 166-196 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 148-175 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

After these two attacks Mega Tyranitar is lacking for moveslots. It wants Ice Beam to cheese physcally defensive Lando-T, Gliscor and x4 weak Dragons; it wants EQ/Fire Punch to hit Steel-types and for more consistent damage than Stone Edge, it wants DD to boost speed, and rocks to punish switches.

With just Pursuit and Stone Edge it's fairly underwhelming as an attacker, and it doesn't handle burns or paralysis well. Many of the other Megas have outs versus status:

-Facade (Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir)
-Swords Dance (Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, Mega Garchomp)
-Magic Bounce (Mega Diancie, Mega Absol)
-Special Attackers (numerous)

Mega Gyarados, another Dragon Dancer, doesn't mind burn or paralysis as much as one would think. Using Thunder Wave and Waterfall, it can paraflinch a slower opponent depending on what it's afflicted with. Not ideal, but spreading status and haxing flinches is something.

Mega Tyranitar is basically screwed if it's burned/paralyzed. It takes two DD's to undo a burn, which basically negates the advantage of Mega Tyranitar's bulk. Full paralysis alongside Stone Edge's poor accuracy is brutal, which is especially relevant in the matchup versus physically defensive Gholdengo, who spams Thunder Wave early after blocking a defog/spin attempt.

I'd also like to call attention to base Tyranitar. Banded, Tera Dark Pursuit comes close to removing Gholdengo even without switching out:

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 128-152 (33.8 - 40.2%) -- 33.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Tyranitar Pursuit (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 332-392 (87.8 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Tera Blast also gives Tera Rock DD Tyranitar a 100% accurate, 80 BP physical Rock-type move, giving it a consistency and power it's never had before Gen 9. Losing the Dark-typing also allows it to check Ceruledge, a Ghost-type that runs Close Combat as coverage which kills Mega Tyranitar trying to Pursuit it:

252 Atk Ceruledge Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Ceruledge Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Rock Tyranitar: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But Tera Rock still keeps the SpD boost from sandstorm, so this Tyranitar remains bulky enough to handle strong special attacks. Remember than in Gen 5 Tyranitar used to sponge specs Latios Draco Meteors: losing the Ghost, Dark resistance and Psychic immunity isn't end-all.

I'm on the view that in this meta, a Mega should offer something that tera doesn't, and in Tyranitar's case, it retains the same typing and ability after Mega Evolving, while its new speed tier doesn't help it versus relevant threats. Tera gives base Tyranitar more power while also giving it more bulk by virtue of narrowing its weaknesses. That synergy allows using another Mega in its place. I've found Mega Scizor and base Tyranitar work well together as the former is a literal swiss army knife and both cover Gholdengo's STAB moves.

 

[EonDuoLatios]

I have a few salient points to make regarding Mega Tyranitar. I feel that Ttar is one of the few legitimate Megas in this metagame, and is also an elite one, and that some of the points that a few members of this forum have made are relying on assumptions that may or may not be true in their argument against Mega Tyranitar.

Mega Tyranitar faces stiff competition from other Megas and base Tyranitar and the only niche it has is as the bulkiest, most KO resistant Pursuiter. But is that an important niche?

You go all in on Ghost busting at the expense of general utility offered by Mega Lopunny and Mega Scizor

First of all, Ghostbusting (as some may call it) is quite important in this metagame. Given the power of Dragapult, which can run through teams with its Dragon Dance and Choice Specs sets alike, as well as Gholdengo, which is a terrific scarfer having the utility of being able to keep hazards up just by switching in, checking prominent Ghost type Pokemon is quite important; this importance is only accentuated by the nearly unresisted power of Shadow Ball and Never-Ending Nightmare. Therefore, having a Ghost check is important on any team; another Pokemon playing a similar role is Kingambit, which also is able to Pursuit trap these Pokemon.

However, Tyranitar's utility is not limited to "Ghostbusting"; saying so would be implying Tyranitar has no other talents other than checking Ghost types. As a matter of fact, Tyranitar's Pursuit can be said to be more powerful than Kingambit's Pursuit, as it also chases out the powerful utility Pokemon, Tornadus-Therian (barring the vanishingly rare Focus Blast) and the less common but not less annoying Zapdos. Other powerhouses that Mega Tyranitar checks include Heatran, which Tyranitar can (but not necessarily will) Pursuit trap, as well as, at times, Choice-locked Tapu Lele. Its ability, Sand Stream, is also superb, not only giving Tyranitar amazing special bulk but also removing enemy weather, such as Rain if played well. This can also enable more niche Pokemon, such as Sand Rush Excadrill, which, despite Great Tusk, can still very well succeed in this metagame.

At +1 Speed, Mega Tyranitar is still slower than Mega Lopunny and Zamazenta; Mega Gyarados can at least outspeed these Pokemon and can ease setup before ME with a Fighting resistance and Intimidate.

Stone Edge as the primary STAB also means Mega Tyranitar is an inconsistent performer. When running Jolly, it's not that much stronger than Mega Garchomp under sand:

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 166-196 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 148-175 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

We really do not want to compare apples and oranges when analysing Pokemon, even if we're looking at Pokemon that can Mega Evolve. In particular, the two examples that you provided, Mega Garchomp under Sand, as well as Mega Gyarados, serve an extremely different role than Tyranitar. Both Garchomp and Gyarados can serve as breakers, respectively using Dragon and Swords Dance, while Tyranitar serves as an offensive, specially defensive check to various Pokemon, which is a use case that neither Garchomp nor Gyarados can fulfil.

After these two attacks Mega Tyranitar is lacking for moveslots. It wants Ice Beam to cheese physcally defensive Lando-T, Gliscor and x4 weak Dragons; it wants EQ/Fire Punch to hit Steel-types and for more consistent damage than Stone Edge, it wants DD to boost speed, and rocks to punish switches.

With just Pursuit and Stone Edge it's fairly underwhelming as an attacker, and it doesn't handle burns or paralysis well. (...)

Mega Gyarados, another Dragon Dancer, doesn't mind burn or paralysis as much as one would think. Using Thunder Wave and Waterfall, it can paraflinch a slower opponent depending on what it's afflicted with. Not ideal, but spreading status and haxing flinches is something.

Mega Tyranitar is basically screwed if it's burned/paralyzed. It takes two DD's to undo a burn, which basically negates the advantage of Mega Tyranitar's bulk. Full paralysis alongside Stone Edge's poor accuracy is brutal, which is especially relevant in the matchup versus physically defensive Gholdengo, who spams Thunder Wave early after blocking a defog/spin attempt.

You seem to get the impression that (despite acknowledging that Tyranitar does a great job "busting Ghosts") Tyranitar is meant as a sweeping role. While I do concede that Mega Tyranitar is unable to use a Dragon Dance set well in this current metagame, the fact is that Tyranitar does not want to use a Dragon Dance set; its preferred set is Stone Edge, Pursuit, Superpower or Earthquake, as well as Stealth Rock or Ice Beam. Thus, it would be unwise to try to present Tyranitar as an unviable Dragon Dancer, and basing your feeling of this Pokemon on this notion.

While it is true that Mega Tyranitar hates getting burnt, the same may not be said for the paralyse status condition. While it would be quite annoying to deal with the chance of full paralysis, it does not mind the speed drop much, as it is unable to outspeed much at neutral or even (as you've mentioned) at 1.5x speed. In fact, I would argue that Tyranitar dislikes a Toxic much more than paralysis, as that would wildly inhibit its ability to check threats multiple times.

In summary, I believe Mega Tyranitar has not been given enough credit by some members of this discussion. With the above points, I would like to show why I believe that Mega Tyranitar is still an elite Pokemon in the current meta, and why I support Adem's nomination for it.

 

[poop3]

We really do not want to compare apples and oranges when analysing Pokemon, even if we're looking at Pokemon that can Mega Evolve. In particular, the two examples that you provided, Mega Garchomp under Sand, as well as Mega Gyarados, serve an extremely different role than Tyranitar. Both Garchomp and Gyarados can serve as breakers, respectively using Dragon and Swords Dance, while Tyranitar serves as an offensive, specially defensive check to various Pokemon, which is a use case that neither Garchomp nor Gyarados can fulfil.

Just a nitpick, but Mega Gyarados is bulkier than Mega Tyranitar before sand is taken into account (95/130 versus 100/120). Tapu Fini, Water-type special tank, actually has worse defensive stats than the sea serpent. MG can definitey play defense on both sides if one wants it to.

Also, Mold Breaker bypasses Magic Bounce, Good as Gold, and Purifying Salt, so Mega Gyarados is one of the few Pokemon that can status Mega Sableye, Mega Diancie, Hatterene, Gholdengo and Garganacl.

 

[Sputnik]

Couple quick things.

B+ -> A-

Shed Tail is absolutely bonkers broken if you use it right, and in a metagame as high powered as this one something getting a sub that probably shouldn't is potentially game breaking. Pult, Ghold, Howl Zama, Dnite, Heatran, honestly most of the offensive metagame just breaks if you can get it in with a sub up, which isn't too hard with the defensive meta being filled with shit like Ferro, Washtom, and Gastro that can't easily break the subs of many of these. The lack of defensive utility isn't great, but with Tera you can pull some stuff off and it has cool tricks like the fast Draco, Knock, and Rapid Spin. But honestly this is mostly based on Shed Tail being super stupid and potentially winning the game outright if you play intelligently.

B- -> B

This is a cool mon for the meta right now, checks Zama, MLop, Weav, and a lot of other phyiscal attackers, Fighting Stab is good, and with Tera it has the power to act as a legitimate lure to some special attackers. It can't go too high because its reliant on using its Tera defensively to be effective a lot of the time but its a fun mon.

Also I agree with raising Washtom and Tran while dropping Clef and Dozo, Clef is prolly B- tho instead of C

 

[adem]

Mega Tyranitar faces stiff competition from other Megas and base Tyranitar and the only niche it has is as the bulkiest, most KO resistant Pursuiter. But is that an important niche?

Megas are easier than ever to drop in this economy, and a good number of my teams are mega-less. Very rarely there is any competition at all for Megas, and Mega Tar is just an upgraded base Tar so I dont really have any issue with using it. And yes, that is a very good niche, some calcs to showcase this:

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 76-90 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 98-116 (28.7 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

All its needed is 1 Uturn for Tar to be put into Draco Pult range easily, and 2 to be put into SBall range.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 229-271 (63 - 74.6%) -- not a KO

Scratch that, it straight up loses to Pult without a boosting item. You ask, why does Mega Tar also have an extra 88 HP? Its because Mega Tar also has an extra base 10 speed, which allows it to hit the same benchmark as base Tar but earlier, so it has extra 88 EVs. You say, oh but base Tar can run Assault Vest, well yes it can, but….

252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 110-132 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 144-170 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Doesnt solve the issue that DD Pult brings still lol. Also. now it cant run Stealth Rock, which is the biggest hit for it IMO since its a rocker that beats the best defogger in the tier, and without that its garbage. Not going to add on the fact that its much weaker without a boosting item, further more even if you decide to invest in bulk to make up for the loss, meaning you do not hit close to as hard.

So you are really glossing over Mega Tars benefits over base tar, rather insulting to the mon, Unless you plan on running 3 tyranitars on ur team to stimulate the same effect, Mega Tar is miles better.

You go all in on Ghost busting at the expense of general utility offered by Mega Lopunny and Mega Scizor, who also have anti-Ghost tools (Scrappy, Pursuit, Knock Off). At +1 Speed, Mega Tyranitar is still slower than Mega Lopunny and Zamazenta; Mega Gyarados can at least outspeed these Pokemon and can ease setup before ME with a Fighting resistance and Intimidate.

Mega Scizor can only switch into 1 Ghost in the tier, and you need a specific set (curse) to actually beat it, which is extremely uncommon, and it loses to all the other ghosts in the tier. Mega Lopunny is unable to switch into any of them, and is even rked by Dragapult lol. I really implore you to calc Mega Scizor’s pursuit too vs its targets, and see for yourself. Keep in mind you have to be bulky physdef to at least beat pult, if your offensive you dont pursuit anything. Anyways, outside of Mega Scizors tissue paper pursuit, non of these TRAP AND REMOVE the ghosts. These ghosts are one of the best mons in the tier, and arguably the most broken right now. You also are implying that Mega Tar has no utility? Since you solely mention Anti Ghost lol, when it literally has Rocks (and is the best rocker in the game) Also another funny thing, which Pursuit Sciz cant do is trap shit like Torn, Zap, Heatran. Another ”utility” that you forgot is the fact that it switches weather, and in a tier where rain is crazy as fuck, sun is solid, that is a very big reason. Mega Gyarados only fits on ho for a reason, adding on the the rocks weak fact pre mega, you only beat 1 ghost which you cant switch into unless mega, and its fighting resistance is a joke in this economy.

Stone Edge as the primary STAB also means Mega Tyranitar is an inconsistent performer. When running Jolly, it's not that much stronger than Mega Garchomp under sand:

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 166-196 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 148-175 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Stone edge is 80% accurate lol not 60%, pls stop trying to look through the cracks to find a way this mon is not it. I also dont know if this is meant to be supporting me orrr, since everyone runs Ada on tar and your also comparing it to one of the Pokemons with the largest base attack in the tier, adding on with a sand force boost, so the fact that even with jolly its quite a decent bit harder, is a good thing lol.

After these two attacks Mega Tyranitar is lacking for moveslots. It wants Ice Beam to cheese physcally defensive Lando-T, Gliscor and x4 weak Dragons; it wants EQ/Fire Punch to hit Steel-types and for more consistent damage than Stone Edge, it wants DD to boost speed, and rocks to punish switches.

With just Pursuit and Stone Edge it's fairly underwhelming as an attacker, and it doesn't handle burns or paralysis well. Many of the other Megas have outs versus status:

-Facade (Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir)
-Swords Dance (Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, Mega Garchomp)
-Magic Bounce (Mega Diancie, Mega Absol)
-Special Attackers (numerous)

Mega Gyarados, another Dragon Dancer, doesn't mind burn or paralysis as much as one would think. Using Thunder Wave and Waterfall, it can paraflinch a slower opponent depending on what it's afflicted with. Not ideal, but spreading status and haxing flinches is something.

Mega Tyranitar is basically screwed if it's burned/paralyzed. It takes two DD's to undo a burn, which basically negates the advantage of Mega Tyranitar's bulk. Full paralysis alongside Stone Edge's poor accuracy is brutal, which is especially relevant in the matchup versus physically defensive Gholdengo, who spams Thunder Wave early after blocking a defog/spin attempt.

Ive personally run Crunch Pursuit Ice Punch and Rocks on most of my Mega Tars, sometimes I run Edge but not really commonly. The good thing about Tyranitar is that the edge slot is free, you can crunch the same things you edge, also you dont need to ohko every switch in, i dont see why such a big emphasis is being placed on that. This same argument i would say applies even more to mega lop, mega zor lol. It doesnt want eq or fire punch to hit steel types, you crunch them / edge them in mzors case then swap out to something, Fire punch is just an added benefit to it if you really need it, but again, MZor has 8 roost pp and ferro is reliant on seed, put 2 and 2 together and realistically its not needed. It doesnt want dd because dd is an awful set and really does nothing much, and also means its no longer running pursuit, ur comparing apples to oranges.

Good thing no one uses facade mega lop, since its literally useless without status and much weaker than return unboosted, and the fact that it has 20 better moves it can run in the 4th slot over facade. good thing pinsir also is not run, so a horrible comparison. I dont see how MMaw, MZor, and MChomp having SD is counterplay, it needs to take turns to SD, and more each time they switch in, unless you give them a free turn every time then sure lol. Mega Diancie is not getting statused its getting killed. Good thing no one uses Mega Absol (also same as dia, but worse lol), Special attackers :skull:

Please find me a mon that does exactly the same things Mega Tar does and use them for comparison, or at the very very least find similarities lol, what do any of these have in common, literally apples to oranges.

Mega Gyarados 100% minds status more than MTar, because even when statused MTar can still Pursuit trap (albeit weaker if burnt, but the others work), and can still click rocks on all and threaten torn. Mega Gyarados cant sweep if anything,

also please dont use made up fantasy examples no one uses, i can reach into my ass and find something random that MTar has to ”deal with” status too, doesnt mean i, or any1 will use it

Good thing no one uses max physdef ghold, as it needs some spd to actually deal with things in natdex like lele and torn hwave lol. MTar realistically does more than all of these mons if statused, and cares less about nearly all of them bar burnt for some.

I'd also like to call attention to base Tyranitar. Banded, Tera Dark Pursuit comes close to removing Gholdengo even without switching out:

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 128-152 (33.8 - 40.2%) -- 33.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Tyranitar Pursuit (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 332-392 (87.8 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Tera Blast also gives Tera Rock DD Tyranitar a 100% accurate, 80 BP physical Rock-type move, giving it a consistency and power it's never had before Gen 9. Losing the Dark-typing also allows it to check Ceruledge, a Ghost-type that runs Close Combat as coverage which kills Mega Tyranitar trying to Pursuit it:

252 Atk Ceruledge Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Ceruledge Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Rock Tyranitar: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But Tera Rock still keeps the SpD boost from sandstorm, so this Tyranitar remains bulky enough to handle strong special attacks. Remember than in Gen 5 Tyranitar used to sponge specs Latios Draco Meteors: losing the Ghost, Dark resistance and Psychic immunity isn't end-all.

Ok but refer to my first comment talking about how u missed 25 million different aspects about mega tar, unfortunately mr band here isnt taking hits, and this is also not gen 5, shit hits harder and different mons are relevant. Losing the ghost resist means pult claims, losing the psychic immune means u cant suit trap ANY lele lol. ur also wasting ur tera type on tar. also again, use some relevant examples lol, cerulage? really?

I'm on the view that in this meta, a Mega should offer something that tera doesn't, and in Tyranitar's case, it retains the same typing and ability after Mega Evolving, while its new speed tier doesn't help it versus relevant threats. Tera gives base Tyranitar more power while also giving it more bulk by virtue of narrowing its weaknesses. That synergy allows using another Mega in its place. I've found Mega Scizor and base Tyranitar work well together as the former is a literal swiss army knife and both cover Gholdengo's STAB moves.

Good thing u can run both tera and mega, and u can tera a differe t mon lol. It also adds a lot more important weaknesses, yeah now ur not as weak to fighting or ur not ground weak, hooray, ur not beating those mons anyways, mega lop cc is still ohkoing u, gtusk is still beating u, nothing changes. again, re my point earlier, yeah u can run 3 different tyranitars and achieve the same effect lol, but then ur running 3 different tyranitars.

 

[poop3]

Megas are easier than ever to drop in this economy, and a good number of my teams are mega-less.

Why do you think this? Little has changed since Gen 8, with Knock Off spam and HDB usage being as omnipresent as ever. If anything, the introduction of Gholdengo has put even more emphasis on KO to generate progress, with Gholdengo blocking hazard removal and tricking Choice Specs onto a wall or physical attacker.

I can't understand talking up Mega Tyranitar and how important it is while also claiming that Megas are as unnecessary as ever. Especially with Mega Tyranitar being a great knock sponge.

Doesnt solve the issue that DD Pult brings still lol. Also. now it cant run Stealth Rock, which is the biggest hit for it IMO since its a rocker that beats the best defogger in the tier, and without that its garbage. Not going to add on the fact that its much weaker without a boosting item, further more even if you decide to invest in bulk to make up for the loss, meaning you do not hit close to as hard.

Who is this best defogger? I don't know what the matchup is.

So you are really glossing over Mega Tars benefits over base tar, rather insulting to the mon, Unless you plan on running 3 tyranitars on ur team to stimulate the same effect, Mega Tar is miles better.

I'm not glossing over anything. Mega Tyranitar and Tyranitar have the same ability and typing. The only two benefits are the increased stats and an item that can't be knocked off. What we're discussing is whether or not those benefits translate into an appreciable niche over the base, which is a relevant question as the two formes overlap more than with other Pokemon.

Mega Scizor can only switch into 1 Ghost in the tier, and you need a specific set (curse) to actually beat it, which is extremely uncommon, and it loses to all the other ghosts in the tier. Mega Lopunny is unable to switch into any of them, and is even rked by Dragapult lol. I really implore you to calc Mega Scizor’s pursuit too vs its targets, and see for yourself.

This is true for Mega Scizor. It doesn't look like it's commonly used to kill Ghost types anyway, just for the strong priority with Bullet Punch. I'll caveat, though, that those calcs are without hazards, and hazards are very relevant to this meta. With just rocks Dragapult is basically KO'd by Mega Scizor's Pursuit, as that attack does 80% to it.

Another ”utility” that you forgot is the fact that it switches weather, and in a tier where rain is crazy as fuck, sun is solid, that is a very big reason.

Rain teams don't need rain to kill Mega Tyranitar, they're loaded with super effective moves against it and are surer to boost their damage with tera. Checking Mega Charizard Y is legit, but sun also runs Tusk which is generally the hardest check to Mega Tyranitar. I think Gen 9 weather wars is the toughest it's ever been for Tyranitar.

Stone edge is 80% accurate lol not 60%, pls stop trying to look through the cracks to find a way this mon is not it.

It's a valid and relevant complaint. Tyranitar doesn't have a 100% accurate Rock-type move at any BP. All other Megas that come to mind have 100% accurate STAB moves, so a Mega Tyranitar user either runs the strongest move available and risks inconsistency, or uses Crunch and accepts a lower damage ceiling and type redundancy with Pursuit.

I also dont know if this is meant to be supporting me orrr, since everyone runs Ada on tar and your also comparing it to one of the Pokemons with the largest base attack in the tier, adding on with a sand force boost, so the fact that even with jolly its quite a decent bit harder, is a good thing lol.

Ive personally run Crunch Pursuit Ice Punch and Rocks on most of my Mega Tars, sometimes I run Edge but not really commonly. The good thing about Tyranitar is that the edge slot is free, you can crunch the same things you edge, also you dont need to ohko every switch in, i dont see why such a big emphasis is being placed on that. This same argument i would say applies even more to mega lop, mega zor lol. It doesnt want eq or fire punch to hit steel types, you crunch them / edge them in mzors case then swap out to something, Fire punch is just an added benefit to it if you really need it, but again, MZor has 8 roost pp and ferro is reliant on seed, put 2 and 2 together and realistically its not needed. It doesnt want dd because dd is an awful set and really does nothing much, and also means its no longer running pursuit, ur comparing apples to oranges.

The ultimate point was to show that Mega Tyranitar is underpowered as an immediate attacker. Stone Edge is Mega Tyranitar's strongest attack, while it's not even STAB for Mega Garchomp. Under a situation where one would use Mega Garchomp (sand) it can come close to Mega Tyranitar's damage output. As for Crunch,

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 147-174 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 141-166 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Garchomp's EQ plays up because of the number of types Ground is super effective against. SE Crunch is limited to Ghosts (where Pursuit is better) and the rarer pure Psychics. Without Stone Edge or DD, Mega Tyranitar is not that threatening to anything that isn't a Ghost.

I dont see how MMaw, MZor, and MChomp having SD is counterplay, it needs to take turns to SD, and more each time they switch in, unless you give them a free turn every time then sure lol.

Compared aginst Dragon Dancers, or using a cleric, SD is the fastest and cheapest way to remedy a burn.

Mega Gyarados 100% minds status more than MTar, because even when statused MTar can still Pursuit trap (albeit weaker if burnt, but the others work), and can still click rocks on all and threaten torn. Mega Gyarados cant sweep if anything,

I have a different philosophy from most other players on this Pokemon. My approach is to spread Thunder Wave then fish for flinches using Waterfall. Like Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados is relatively underpowered as an immediate attacker and has minimal chances of scoring relevant OHKO's at +1. Halving an opponent's speed shortcuts Mega Gyarados outspeeding and flinching something to death. Mold Breaker bypasses ability immunities meaning the only safe switches are Ground-types, who want no part of a Water-type setup sweeper.

I can see how paralysis matters little to Mega Tyranitar. I think that after status, its best options are to just set sand and lay rocks.

Good thing no one uses max physdef ghold, as it needs some spd to actually deal with things in natdex like lele and torn hwave lol. MTar realistically does more than all of these mons if statused, and cares less about nearly all of them bar burnt for some.

I've seen the OU set (and scarf) in natdex. It being the first set listed on the dex and calculator means it'll be run, not necessarily at high elo, but it'll be there. Real annoying tbh.

Losing the ghost resist means pult claims

Assuming bulky band,

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 372-438 (92 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

In this case, don't tera. Specs Dragapult is also a 4HKO versus bulky band tera Rock, and Dragapult's Draco Meteors are much weaker than Latios.

losing the psychic immune means u cant suit trap ANY lele lol.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Rock Tyranitar in Psychic Terrain: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

It's possible, although in this case again, tera is optional. If Lele is already choice locked into a Psychic-type attack Tyranitar is going to hurt it with Pursuit no matter what form it's in.

ur also wasting ur tera type on tar. also again, use some relevant examples lol, cerulage? really?

The premise of your expose on Mega Tyranitar is that Ghost-types, Dragapult in particular, are such an enormus threat that Mega Tyranitar is indispensible at stopping them. I fail to see how tera Tyranitar, filling the same niche, is then a "waste". Either the niche is important enough that every team should have a sturdy check of which Mega Tyranitar is uniquely the best, or it's a situational win button when the opponent has one or more Ghost-types.

Tera is absolutely worth removing Gholdengo or Dragapult, as you not only deny your opponent the ability to tera these very threatening Pokemon, there's no guarantee that what you save tera for later will be as impactful as resulting in a KO.

 

[EonDuoLatios]

I can't understand talking up Mega Tyranitar and how important it is while also claiming that Megas are as unnecessary as ever. Especially with Mega Tyranitar being a great knock sponge.

The point, is that you're not losing out on the opportunity cost of having Ttar as your Mega slot even if you're using Mega Tyranitar, since this opportunity does not need to be used at all.

Who is this best defogger? I don't know what the matchup is.

First of all, I mentioned this earlier; the best defogger in the tier is Tornadus-Therian. Second of all, the fact that you don't even know what some good defoggers are in the NatDex tier means that you have failed to have a rudimentary understanding of the National Dex tier, and thus, this post must be read as if you are just looking at the tier and theorymonning, which is very likely regardless of this assumption,

Rain teams don't need rain to kill Mega Tyranitar, they're loaded with super effective moves against it and are surer to boost their damage with tera. Checking Mega Charizard Y is legit, but sun also runs Tusk which is generally the hardest check to Mega Tyranitar. I think Gen 9 weather wars is the toughest it's ever been for Tyranitar.

Sure, Barraskewda's KOing Mega Tyranitar all day, and so is Great Tusk. However, the fact is that you have five other Pokemon on your team, which can take the role of checking these threats. Allowing sun or rain not to persist, as well as dealing super effective damage to both sun setters are good traits to prevent the sun team from completely running through one's own team; it does also help that Pelipper's U-Turn is able to double the damage of Pursuit, bringing Pelipper one step closer to dead.

The ultimate point was to show that Mega Tyranitar is underpowered as an immediate attacker. Stone Edge is Mega Tyranitar's strongest attack, while it's not even STAB for Mega Garchomp. Under a situation where one would use Mega Garchomp (sand) it can come close to Mega Tyranitar's damage output. As for Crunch,

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 147-174 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 141-166 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Again, please stop comparing apples to oranges. Mega Tyranitar's not supposed to be what you call an "immediate attacker"; firing off Stone Edge is just a bonus to complement Tyranitar's great bulk and defensive profile, not the main draw. Besides, even if we look at the massively unviable Mega Garchomp under sand, Tyranitar's power still comes close to it, if not at times eclipsing it, so the comparison is invalid anyhow.

I have a different philosophy from most other players on this Pokemon. My approach is to spread Thunder Wave then fish for flinches using Waterfall. Like Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados is relatively underpowered as an immediate attacker and has minimal chances of scoring relevant OHKO's at +1. Halving an opponent's speed shortcuts Mega Gyarados outspeeding and flinching something to death. Mold Breaker bypasses ability immunities meaning the only safe switches are Ground-types, who want no part of a Water-type setup sweeper.

Interesting philosophy. Unfortunately, Gastrodon. Besides, Mega Gyarados is borderline unviable without dual screens backing it up, so I'd like to ask you to show us how this "philosophy" can be put into action, especially since Rocky Helmet exists.

The premise of your expose on Mega Tyranitar is that Ghost-types, Dragapult in particular, are such an enormus threat that Mega Tyranitar is indispensible at stopping them. I fail to see how tera Tyranitar, filling the same niche, is then a "waste". Either the niche is important enough that every team should have a sturdy check of which Mega Tyranitar is uniquely the best, or it's a situational win button when the opponent has one or more Ghost-types.


Tera is absolutely worth removing Gholdengo or Dragapult, as you not only deny your opponent the ability to tera these very threatening Pokemon, there's no guarantee that what you save tera for later will be as impactful as resulting in a KO.

Tera Tyranitar is a waste as you're wasting a Terestalising slot on Tyranitar, which can be better used by almost any other Pokemon in the game, even though you had an option known as Mega Tyranitar, which wastes a Mega slot that you're unlikely to use on any other Pokemon anyway. Besides, no one Terestalises Gholdengo or Dragapult anyway, and even if Gholdengo is Terestalised, it is likely to Tera into a Pokemon that can escape from the Pursuit trap. Also you mentioned that "either the niche is important enough that every team should have a sturdy check of which Mega Tyranitar is uniquely the best, or it's a situational win button when the opponent has one or more Ghost-types". I truly fail to see what the point of this sentence is: is it to acknowledge Adem's point that Tyranitar is a uniquely good Pokemon, or that it's a situational win button?

Anyway, I strongly recommend you to try out Mega Tyranitar before critiquing it any further, as doing so may be very much detrimental to the discussion. If you struggle to find a team with Mega Tyranitar, I would like to link you to my Rate My Team, which I hope will thoroughly answer any questions regarding Mega Tyranitar that you may have.

 

[about15guys]

Um i did say this was the thread but Garg is already ranked at B+ rn

you know now that I think about it the reason why I didn't see garg was probably because I was looking at then gen 8 vr

 

[adem]

Why do you think this? Little has changed since Gen 8, with Knock Off spam and HDB usage being as omnipresent as ever. If anything, the introduction of Gholdengo has put even more emphasis on KO to generate progress, with Gholdengo blocking hazard removal and tricking Choice Specs onto a wall or physical attacker.

I can't understand talking up Mega Tyranitar and how important it is while also claiming that Megas are as unnecessary as ever. Especially with Mega Tyranitar being a great knock sponge.

I think this because we now have 3 ou usable mechanics (1 being megas), and the other 2 of them preventing the use of megas on said mon. This newest mechanic also happens to not be mon locked, happens to not take up an item slot, nor does it have any real other general drawbacks. Most of the time, something on the team will Tera, and that can (and will) provide similiar utility a different Mega does without taking up a item and team slot, for example Skele can Tera water and check offensive grounds, while still being a skele and checking other stuff skele does, which means now stuff like Mega Latias isnt needed on this fatter teams to deal with stuff like SD Garchomp.

Another thing is the fact that a lot of megas recived a ton of direct and indirect nerfs. Mega Latias lost half its recovery pp, gutting it from the top tier wincondition it once was to a shell of its former self. Same applies to Mega Sableye, but with Sab theres a lot of other indirect changes too. With the complete shift to how stall plays nowadays (less brute force facetanking, more wincons, more Unaware reliant, careful Tera type play and more careful play), stuff like MSab now sucks on stall, and mega-less stuff are much more preferred. Lastly, the addition of a lot of new mons which compete with slots with existing megas also mean more of them are less viable.

Who is this best defogger? I don't know what the matchup is.

Torn T

I'm not glossing over anything. Mega Tyranitar and Tyranitar have the same ability and typing. The only two benefits are the increased stats and an item that can't be knocked off. What we're discussing is whether or not those benefits translate into an appreciable niche over the base, which is a relevant question as the two formes overlap more than with other Pokemon.

They definitely do, as shown in the numerous cases ive mentioned, and I assumed you were glossing since you just mentioned its bulk increase, didnt consider the speed or attack boost, at least in your original post.

This is true for Mega Scizor. It doesn't look like it's commonly used to kill Ghost types anyway, just for the strong priority with Bullet Punch. I'll caveat, though, that those calcs are without hazards, and hazards are very relevant to this meta. With just rocks Dragapult is basically KO'd by Mega Scizor's Pursuit, as that attack does 80% to it.

0 Atk Scizor-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 208-246 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this is switching, which will literally only be the case if Dragapult clicks Draco, and even then that means Sciz is extremely chipped if its not recovering and will lose next time. Also, this max is 77, not even close to 80, the fact that your trading a decent chunk of your health at WORST case.

Rain teams don't need rain to kill Mega Tyranitar, they're loaded with super effective moves against it and are surer to boost their damage with tera. Checking Mega Charizard Y is legit, but sun also runs Tusk which is generally the hardest check to Mega Tyranitar. I think Gen 9 weather wars is the toughest it's ever been for Tyranitar.

No, but tar can reset rain and can potentially pursuit trap pelliper, and also set rocks against it, and check torn and zap. Yes i can use a type chart i know rock is weak to water, but tar resetting rain is huge since thats the rain abusers biggest boost, making them infinitely easier to deal with. Yes sun runs Tusk, but you also can pursuit trap Char Y and Tusk isnt invincible nor hard to pressure, esp with things like Ice Punch.

It's a valid and relevant complaint. Tyranitar doesn't have a 100% accurate Rock-type move at any BP. All other Megas that come to mind have 100% accurate STAB moves, so a Mega Tyranitar user either runs the strongest move available and risks inconsistency, or uses Crunch and accepts a lower damage ceiling and type redundancy with Pursuit.

:skull: Medi doesnt have 100% accurate psychic stab, mawile doesnt have 100% accurate fight stab that it uses, both medi and lop didnt have 100% accurate fight stab til last gen, mega garchomp doesnt have a 100% accurate dragon move that it uses. Its 80%, its not an issue, and its very silly to nitpick as a mon. It needs to use Crunch, as all pursuit trappers, they all run a secobdary dark stab because if not they dont pursuit trap the ghosts lol. Type redundancy is not an issue with such a high damage output and spammable stabs + decent enough coverage.

The ultimate point was to show that Mega Tyranitar is underpowered as an immediate attacker. Stone Edge is Mega Tyranitar's strongest attack, while it's not even STAB for Mega Garchomp. Under a situation where one would use Mega Garchomp (sand) it can come close to Mega Tyranitar's damage output. As for Crunch,

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 147-174 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 141-166 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Garchomp's EQ plays up because of the number of types Ground is super effective against. SE Crunch is limited to Ghosts (where Pursuit is better) and the rarer pure Psychics. Without Stone Edge or DD, Mega Tyranitar is not that threatening to anything that isn't a Ghost.

Yeah but Mega Chomp also has a higher base attack and a sand force boost??? If you were trying to show that it was underpowered, that was a horrible way to do so. Literally what are these comparisons, EQ also has a very notable immunity (which is run on literally every team) and is a weaker bp than crunch. Also not threatening??
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 234-276 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 178-211 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Yes im sure 2hkoing bulky neutral targets is not threatening.

Compared aginst Dragon Dancers, or using a cleric, SD is the fastest and cheapest way to remedy a burn.

No the faster way is play with your brain and not get burnt. Maybe try to not hard switch into the Wisp rotom wash, or hard swap into the scald gastro or pex, its really not that hard.

I have a different philosophy from most other players on this Pokemon. My approach is to spread Thunder Wave then fish for flinches using Waterfall. Like Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados is relatively underpowered as an immediate attacker and has minimal chances of scoring relevant OHKO's at +1. Halving an opponent's speed shortcuts Mega Gyarados outspeeding and flinching something to death. Mold Breaker bypasses ability immunities meaning the only safe switches are Ground-types, who want no part of a Water-type setup sweeper.

I can see how paralysis matters little to Mega Tyranitar. I think that after status, its best options are to just set sand and lay rocks.

Well thats solely you, cant really be applied to the rest of the playerbase. And yeah, MGyara isnt strong enough, hence why you use it to break early game for its teammates or clean late game. PhysDef Ferro and Washtom surely care a lot about MGyara, the latter which cant be paraed and the former which just punishes you. Lets see, wabsorb clods and gastro cares very much about either, and hf flinching down zapdos too.

I've seen the OU set (and scarf) in natdex. It being the first set listed on the dex and calculator means it'll be run, not necessarily at high elo, but it'll be there. Real annoying tbh.

Ill give you scarf since for some reason thats actually a popular set on ladder, but i imagine it will die down soon since its an awful set. Physdef is not used at all in natdex, and the ladder usage backs this up, with the majority being max max and some being some different iterations of that, and the same applies from the 0 to 1695 elo range, any sets with physdef invest arent even listed, so the calcs arent relevant. And no, this isnt even at high elo.

Assuming bulky band,

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 372-438 (92 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

In this case, don't tera. Specs Dragapult is also a 4HKO versus bulky band tera Rock, and Dragapult's Draco Meteors are much weaker than Latios.

Oh so your using max hp, which means its not even hitting the same speed tier (including missing out on bulky ghold LOL). You can invest and get much much more bulk then with mega tar, and still have a better speed tier hitting more notable threats and checking things much better. Also you do realise Pult can just Uturn once then beat you, Latios cant uturn! One uturn is all it takes for 2 Dracos to kill you, or if you tera then 2 sballs.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Rock Tyranitar in Psychic Terrain: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

It's possible, although in this case again, tera is optional. If Lele is already choice locked into a Psychic-type attack Tyranitar is going to hurt it with Pursuit no matter what form it's in.

It cant switch into its psychic moves at all really, and even then this is scarf, specs demolishes you. Tar can hurt it but it cant trap it

The premise of your expose on Mega Tyranitar is that Ghost-types, Dragapult in particular, are such an enormus threat that Mega Tyranitar is indispensible at stopping them. I fail to see how tera Tyranitar, filling the same niche, is then a "waste". Either the niche is important enough that every team should have a sturdy check of which Mega Tyranitar is uniquely the best, or it's a situational win button when the opponent has one or more Ghost-types.

No, my premise is that Mega Tyranitar is easily slotted on teams and a completely direct upgrade to base tar in nearly every single way, and doing pretty much every niche at the same time but better. Tera Tyranitar does not fill the same niche even close to as well, if its using your bulky band set then Ghold beats (and your forced to waste your tera), and your also 1 turn away from losing to Dragapult (or lose just on a predict) It also happens to beat the best defoggers, help amazingly in the weather war and can pursuit trap more than ghost types, funnily enough. I dont know how you also missed all these points but w/e, and also seemed to ignore all of the calcs i posted irt pult at the start, not sure why you didnt address the entire chunk since thats an important point.

Tera is absolutely worth removing Gholdengo or Dragapult, as you not only deny your opponent the ability to tera these very threatening Pokemon, there's no guarantee that what you save tera for later will be as impactful as resulting in a KO.

Again, you seemed to ignore the calcs and the reasonings why they were pretty much irrelevant and did not address them, makes me assume your doing this in bad faith, which is quite annoying. Also, you can do this without wasting your tera since mtar also does this ! (on real sets which people use, even on ladder). And this argument applies backwards better rather than forwards, theres so many useful aspects of tera, it can prevent you from being pressured too hard by certain mons in that mu, it can guarantee you a win since theres a ton of more impactful tera users than tar trying to get a ko. It can also allow you to preserve a mon in the worst case, making things a 5050 instead of a 100% loss. Theres no guarantee that this one (chip damage) since you dont ko relevant things is more impactful than everything else tera can do throughout the game.

If you intend to respond, please actually address the bulk of the information and not stay and nitpick at specific points like stone edges accuracy wasting peoples time.

 

[Sputnik]

Ok this might be a flaming take but I'm gonna put it on here.

to A+

Espa/Cyc/Koko HO is the absolute best and most consistent playstyle that exists right now in my opinion. This is mostly down to Espa being super dumb but the other two support it so well that not running them with it is basically just handicapping yourself. Hell, running ANY HO that doesn't have these three on it is handicapping yourself. Espa has like two consistent answers in Tera Dark Clod and Ting-Lu, and they are both easily abusable through other HO teammates. Cyc's Subs punish virtually every single fat mon in the tier and make running anything that doesn't have the muscle to consistently break the Subs a constant liability. Koko is mostly just for screens, but its typing gives it key resists and immunities for the metagame, allowing it to handily set up screens in most matchups or just pivot out to get Espa or some other busted sweeper in.

Speaking of which...

B- -> B+

Honestly MGyara on its own isn't anything special in this meta. However, the mon supports the above HO core pretty much perfectly, as it doesn't give a damn about Unaware mons and can help to beat down Ting-Lu. It can also afford to fit a third attack on Cyc teams if you want, and the decrease in use of Fini, Tang, and some other problematic mons gives it more flexibility in its coverage moves. Without the above core it's pretty iffy overall, but it supports it so well it should rise.

B -> B+/A-

I'm not super sold on exactly how much it should rise, but this thing has a lot of utility at the moment even beyond the supremely important role of dealing with Espa. Ruination lets it chip just about anything, Whirlwind combined with its huge bulk lets it help out against dangerous stuff like Dnite and MSciz, and it has enough bulk to emergency check a huge portion of the meta if it has to. And it sets Rocks or Spikes. Cool mon.

Couple quick notes too, KGambit is great with the above core as a means to assist against Pult and to help in the anti-Espa check effort, but A is a fine place for it. Surprisingly, MPert and Specs Peli absolutely rock with Espa/Cyc/Koko, but they aren't required along with them by any means so A is also fine for them.

I also have Lucha on the radar for a rise as a nice HO mon that works well with Espa but I haven't used it enough to form a solid opinion on it.

TL;DR ban Espa

 

[Moyashi]

B -> B+/A-

I'm not super sold on exactly how much it should rise, but this thing has a lot of utility at the moment even beyond the supremely important role of dealing with Espa. Ruination lets it chip just about anything, Whirlwind combined with its huge bulk lets it help out against dangerous stuff like Dnite and MSciz, and it has enough bulk to emergency check a huge portion of the meta if it has to. And it sets Rocks or Spikes. Cool mon.

Couple quick notes too, KGambit is great with the above core as a means to assist against Pult and to help in the anti-Espa check effort, but A is a fine place for it. Surprisingly, MPert and Specs Peli absolutely rock with Espa/Cyc/Koko, but they aren't required along with them by any means so A is also fine for them.

I also have Lucha on the radar for a rise as a nice HO mon that works well with Espa but I haven't used it enough to form a solid opinion on it.

Just wanna piggyback off this to second this. While it lacks as practical a typing as something like Ferrothorn, and it doesn't hit as hard as other EQ users, it's utility is still appreciated in checking dangerous set up threats with whirlwind, or chipping consistently with ruination (a move especially great against recovery lacking switch ins). And like mentioned above, being able to soft check things if it needs to provides a nice bit of security.

Also, personally

-> B+
A Mon I find underexplored and underrated. The offensive presence this thing has while also soft checking a number of threatening physical attackers is really nice to bring in one slot, and it's decently customizable based on your team. The bulk also makes it very much a Mon that can trade with a lot. Though it's mainly the combined offense with it checking physical threats (mega lop, kingambit, bulky mega Scizor and maybe offensive too, SD UrshifuR, variants of weavile, mega ttat without EQ) that I think make it worth a raise, as besides Ting-Lu I think hands is better than most things in B.

 

[hidin]

im super tired rn so no fancy detailed hidin paragraphs this time folks

rises
C -> B- / B
this mon is super good imo you blank a lot of threatening sweepers like dnite gambit msciz and kart due to ID + bpress spam and spikes on top of that makes it way easier for this mon to make progress and w magnezone being nonexistent makes this mons case even btr
it also fits v well on bo / fat as usual and is always a reliable pick due to how much it sponges from relevant mons like the ones mentioned above and general utility; i dont know why it is this low but it should be higher most definitely

UR -> C / B-
holy hell this thing is the goat; blanking mons like shifu tusk mpert and providing a eq deterrent for mons like ihands clodsire gambit and gholdengo is huge asf
sd spdef and subleech go insane against the meta; as one is a bulky wincon that can come into threats like shifu garchomp and mega tyranitar and can click buttons late-game while one has insane longevity from leech + gterrain + leftovers
also is a p cool rain check which is always great
so overall bulu is v cool and is def viable in the meta imo

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786336788 - rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786375113 - bo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786394458 - tera replay against offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1772409133 - subleech against bo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1787523174-pffzcekf13hxuukj55wdl74o5u95rftpw - against semi rain ho
i will prob find more in a disc gc but these are prob the most notable ones

A- and B+ -> A and A- / A respectively
this two mons are absolutely broken and i dont know why they are this low; you truly have little to none safe counterplay to these mons at all and if you think you do they just terastallize and you insta lose
bulk up sets are good as ever and lead sets are dastardly too, ive also seen scarf be somewhat effective tho it isnt as strong as the aforementioned 2
stored power + cm + eseed is actually fucking nuts please instaban this; this mon puts so much pressure on the builder and is a very strong force in the meta rn; specs lumina crash is also a cool set that can clean up late game due to lumina basically being a btr weaker seed flare
they put so much pressure on the teambuilder and is certainly are high meta threats; and they should be raised as such to represent their sheer power and force

A+ -> S-
this is THE glue mon rn to me
its utility and role compression is always amazing and it pairs with any relevant mon extremely well; if you need a rkiller speed control or in general offensive utility mlop will do the job and do a stupendous one at that
the regular pivot set is good and ive seen tech like toxic twave hwish work well too and pup encore is still cool
you also truly have no checks/counters since mlop pairs well with our 1 quadrillion spikers and rockers in the meta and forces a lot of doubles, eventually wearing down said checks/counters
just overall amazing mon and def s- rank to me imo, and this is at the least

B -> B+ / A-
kartana is himmy neutron right now and should not be overlooked
scarf and utility sets are super nuts and sd is as powerful as ever, and is also a nice softcheck to mons like dnite and chomp
scarf does what scarf does, which is having amazing rkilling abilities and can tera grass to ohko mons at +1 like torn and pult for a even crazy damage output
utility sets can defog reliable infront of lando and mega tyranitar while also forcing out ghold due to koff, making it easier to have hazard control and has a monster nuke to hit p much anything for a crazy amount of damage once boosted
sd w z is broke too since u can kinda just own bad bo p easily with it and timikart sounds okayish
overall v good mon and should be used more, its really good!

drops
B -> B-
HOLY these mons suck so much
in a fighting / hazard and knock / ghost centered meta is absolutely horrendous for these mons, and they usually are easily worn down and are crippled due to the recovery nerf
gholdengo in particular always owns these mons which i find mad funny, since you are immune to twave and stoss and just use them for setup fodder
i truly see no merit for these mons at all and they should def be lowered

B -> B-
i have never found this mon threatening at all bar offensive sets but in general it is just quite mid
rock/poison horrendous defensive typing and u easily get clapped by tusk and generally get owned by anything that is a steel type
tspikes is broken yes but i find that this mon just comes in has hazards up for 5 turns then they get spinned/fogged away and it generally is passive

but thats all i have i say for the night, love yall

 

[buayagator]

Nominating
UR -> C

Azumarill has niche on screen hyper offense team, its water-fairy typing resist both Weavile and Urshifu-RS that can break sash lando lead with Triple Axel or Surging Strike. Normalium-Z its the only viable option on belly drum set since sitrus berry heal very little and due the rare user of Z-Crystal because of Tera. Z-Belly Drum can heal azu to full health, so use it only if azu is in the low hp. Dual screen is pretty useful to double the bulk of azu that can make it safely set z-belly drum.

Replay :
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786720814-r9canl5bf1wkkiqen5wobfuqyp1htq7pw
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786760475-i2ewwg7ht3fz0zd12n3j969gpdim00opw
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786796783-k0enwu2p9ct6dplu3sct8tywbo6ug8tpw
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1786903050-50c7c9pkdvvdu1ocyx1msh2ytb5nzngpw

 

[ausma]

a -> a+

been messing around with this tier a lot lately, and i'm really shocked to see so little discussion/respect for this pokemon. like, yeah, its effect is felt and discussed, but it is truly an elite pokemon and i think it is deserving of a higher ranking.

its knock is super spammable thanks to supreme overlord + a boosting item stacking giving it stupid good immediate power with the autonomy of move switching, and its sucker punch makes it a really elite revenge killer that can threaten most things that aren't tusk/lopunny. in case that's not enough for you and you want to make it more of a utility attacker, its great typing into dengo/pult and its bulk means that it's probably the best pursuit user in the format and supreme overlord/its item slot means you don't sacrifice a lot by dropping sd.

furthermore it can get rly good value into p much every archetype. stall and fat structures have to burn tera to check it, and offense gets bopped by its crazy bulk and sucker punch. all the while it makes great use of tera itself, whether it's to make its dark moves even more absurd to handle with tera dark or flipping the script with tera flying into tusk/chomp to get free sds.

tl;dr supreme overlord + typing + knock/pursuit/sucker + bulk is super good and makes gambit really effective, to a point where it can get at least some value every game

 

[BananaBroSHSID]

bruh is hoopa unbound unranked or am i blind
if it is that feels like a crime

 

[TheSorcer3r]

bruh is hoopa unbound unranked or am i blind
if it is that feels like a crime

It would be a crime for it to be ranked in this meta. All of the offense running nuts right now pretty much just delete it.

Assuming this isn't satire, what exactly does it do that other top offensive mons don't do better?
Even against fat teams it is not a "free" matchup, Trick Room has reverted back to a niche playstyle with Melmetal gone and there are several effective pursuit users in the tier.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

It would be a crime for it to be ranked in this meta. All of the offense running nuts right now pretty much just delete it.

Assuming this isn't satire, what exactly does it do that other top offensive mons don't do better?
Even against fat teams it is not a "free" matchup, Trick Room has reverted back to a niche playstyle with Melmetal gone and there are several effective pursuit users in the tier.

Say what you will, it's still OU by usage.

 

[ArSd]

that doesnt mean shit lol. it sucks regardless of usage

 

[Esca D. Sulphate]

Say what you will, it's still OU by usage.

NatDex ladder can't even get Zamazenta into OU despite the fact it has been consistently really good for a while now (so you can't even go "muh recent developments" like you can w Espathra). Pretty safe to say ladder usage is nowhere close to a reliable metric for viability here.

 

[Zobirisking]

Baxcalibur to B​

Baxcalibur is not only a very powerful wallbreaker, but also a better Dragon Dancer than Kyurem and needs to be ranked higher. Here is why.

Baxcalibur has access to two great moves that Kyurem can't learn with Glaive Rush, to hit stuff like Toxapex, Rotom-Wash, Slowbro and Manaphy well. It also has Ice Shard for common threats like Tornados-T, Dragapult, Landorus-T and Garchomp, that would normally outspeed Baxcalibur and do a ton of damage against it.

It also has a decent ability with Thermal Exchange, which gives it a much better matchup against Pokemon with Scald like Suicune, Rotom-Wash with Will-O-Wisp and Fire types like Heatran and Victini.

These calcs show how much damage Dragon Dance Baxcalibur can deal.

+1 252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 312-372 (97.8 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 292-348 (101 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1790978999-ju08jvvmacpmbw447dkcxds74o3nqwxpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1790653335-4ucjud1sdc5log2r4ynrnpt2ov0wnn0pw

And these calcs show the power of Choise Band Baxcalibur.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dragon Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 394-464 (119 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 356-422 (95.9 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 229-271 (70.8 - 83.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 312-372 (97.8 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock