SPOILERS! Necrozma Dusk Mane/Dawn Wing [If it wasn't obvious spoilers]

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Also, it may be possible to pair this mon with something like Scarf Lele, so that it can break even more things thanks to Psychic Terrains, and has a clear niche over deoxys-a, as it actually can break a lot of things Deoxys-A can't, such as Lugia thanks to Moongeist beam being usable, and Magearna with eq on a possible mixed set.
 
I really like Dusk Mane Necrozma. While it does take a rather big hit in the speed department, the utility it has is really admirable, and honestly it's the best of the two forms. Having a Steel/Psychic typing with Prism Armor and decent defensive stats makes it pretty bulky, and it even gets recovery moves in Mmoonlight and Morning Sun to get back up. Not to mention if the mechanics are how the way they work, it's the best form to use for Ultra Necrozma, since an opponent might switch a counter in, only to get set up on and taken out by Ultra Necrozma the next turn.

I'm not very keen about Dawn Wings Necrozma though... its typing is incredibly bad, and trading off Shadow Shield isn't really good, since Prism Armor already doesn't alleviate the two 4x weaknesses well enough, and the HP and speed drop are a lot more problematic for DW Necrozma because of it. It's not an outright awful way into Ultra Necrozma, since it's Special move pool isn't bad at all, but I can't really see it being used too much in comparison to DM Necrozma.

What I like about the way these forms were handled is that unlike Kyurem, the transformation into Ultra Necrozma is linked to the Z-Crystal, which means you can run the two forms with separate items, which can produce some mind games with the opposing battler if they don't know what item you're holding. It's also useful too with the Z-Crystal, because your opponent may not know WHEN you'll activate the transformation, so it can possibly lead them to making a mistake here and there.

I don't know how viable the two forms will be on their own without the Z-Crystal, given their speed stats, but it's an interesting thought I had.
 
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I think Dawn Wings is going to be OU/BL like Kyurem-B was in Gen 5; the Z crystal will obviously be banned but the typing and trash speed just really hurt it. It's a good wall breaker but OU has a dozen of those. I'd even go so far as to say that Regular Necrozma might be better just because its higher speed tier and lack of 4x weaknesses. Bandtar is everywhere, Greninja is everywhere, Tspikes are everywhere; I think it is at least suspect worthy. Necrozma was bad in OU not because of lack of Ghost Stab but because it has no good way to deal with dark types and is extremely hazard weak. The same holds true for this stronger form.

Dusk Mane would be completely busted in OU though- think toxic immune Hoopa-U with recovery, setup options and bulk.
 
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I think Dawn Wings is going to be OU/BL like Kyurem-B was in Gen 5; the Z crystal will obviously be banned but the typing and trash speed just really hurt it. It's a good wall breaker but OU has a dozen of those. I'd even go so far as to say that Regular Necrozma might be better just because its higher speed tier and lack of 4x weaknesses.

Dusk Mane would be completely busted in OU though- think toxic immune Hoopa-U with recovery and bulk.
No way in hell would Dawn Wings be OU. It would have the 2nd highest Special Attack in the tier discounting megas, second only to Hoopa-U. The only reason Kyurem-B isn't banned is because it has almost nothing it can use that monstrous Attack stat with - outside of Outrage and Fusion Bolt its physical movepool is shit. Dusk Mane actually has a pretty good special movepool, although it really wishes it had Focus Blast it can make do with Earth Power - that still hits Tyranitar, Bisharp and especially Heatran hard. It could even sweep late game with Rock Polish.
 
No way in hell would Dawn Wings be OU. It would have the 2nd highest Special Attack in the tier discounting megas, second only to Hoopa-U. The only reason Kyurem-B isn't banned is because it has almost nothing it can use that monstrous Attack stat with - outside of Outrage and Fusion Bolt its physical movepool is shit. Dusk Mane actually has a pretty good special movepool, although it really wishes it had Focus Blast it can make do with Earth Power - that still hits Tyranitar, Bisharp and especially Heatran hard. It could even sweep late game with Rock Polish.
Well actually let’s go back to Hoopa-U. It has a better SpA stat, way better Atk stat, better Speed, and arguably a better typing (only one 4x weakness, but that just means it can’t stay in on mons with u-turn. A Pursuit/Shadow Sneak weakness is way worse). And Hyperspace Fury is just as if not more spammable than Moongeist Beam. Not to mention it gets decent fighting-type coverage (Dawn Wings doesn’t even get HP Fighting, does it) and the unpredictability of two colossal offensive stats. Sure, Dawn Wings has better bulk overall, but can you really say it’d be better than Hoopa?

I can totally see this thing in OU, and I can see it actually not doing too well.
 
I think Dawn Wings is going to be OU/BL like Kyurem-B was in Gen 5; the Z crystal will obviously be banned but the typing and trash speed just really hurt it. It's a good wall breaker but OU has a dozen of those. I'd even go so far as to say that Regular Necrozma might be better just because its higher speed tier and lack of 4x weaknesses. Bandtar is everywhere, Greninja is everywhere, Tspikes are everywhere; I think it is at least suspect worthy. Necrozma was bad in OU not because of lack of Ghost Stab but because it has no good way to deal with dark types and is extremely hazard weak. The same holds true for this stronger form.

Dusk Mane would be completely busted in OU though- think toxic immune Hoopa-U with recovery, setup options and bulk.
That's complex ban and that's against Smogon's policy.
There's no way Dawn Wings will be allowed in OU. Think of a CM set. With that bulk, coupled with really good SpAtk, everything just dies.
 
What are you talking about? Smogon has tons of tier specific item bans. Mewnium-Z is banned in UU, Gengarite in OU, Lopunnite in PU etc...
Mewnium-Z is banned in UU because Mew is OU. ^_^"
Mega-Stones are different though, as they make certain mons change forme.
 
Mewnium-Z is banned in UU because Mew is OU. ^_^"
Mega-Stones are different though, as they make certain mons change forme.
Think critically. Mew was UU when that rule was put in place. If it ever drops out of OU by useage the same applies. You're even inconsistent with this statement too, because the Necrozma Z-crystal also makes it change form... We ban mega stones, we ban z-crystals... ready for this? Let's ban a Z-crystal that's also a mega stone!
 
Think critically. Mew was UU when that rule was put in place. If it ever drops out of OU by useage the same applies.
Well, I thought for some reason Mewnium came after its rise to OU. My bad then. ^_^
It would be cool to see them suspect tested at least, just to see if at least Dusk Wings is as busted as I believe it is.
 
The Z-Move and Dusk Mane are definitely Ubers. I think Dawn Wings is worth testing in OU. You had things like Aegislash in OU at the start of Sun/Moon.
 
Dawn Wings is extremely unlikely to get banned. The constrictions it'll put on defensive teams are huge because defensively answering it is pretty damn tough. It gets Psyshock so Chansey isn't hard walling, and as for those who say Clefable for CM sets:
252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(with 157 sp atk edited in)
It's just too hard to consistently answer on stall and a lot of balance teams. This definitely has no place in OU.
 
Standard Policy from what i remember with Kyube would have Dawn Wings start in Ubers regardless, and if the council feels like its worth the time to try, it will be suspect tested in OU like anything else coming down. It happened With Kyube, it would happen with this, as 680 legends are put in ubers by default. Its different from stuff like Genesect and Deoxys being allowed at the start of a tier.

Its something worth talking about among better players at any rate. it could be like Kyube and fit in just fine/actually be rather poor for a long time, or it could be like that one April Fools day Giratina-O was unbanned for a day. it certainly has alot of defensive answers, even if its stuff like Celesteela and Tyranitar rather than traditional Walls.

I'm no good at Ubers, so while Ultra is obviously good, could a better player theorymon how good Dusk Mane is going to be?
 
Standard Policy from what i remember with Kyube would have Dawn Wings start in Ubers regardless, and if the council feels like its worth the time to try, it will be suspect tested in OU like anything else coming down. It happened With Kyube, it would happen with this, as 680 legends are put in ubers by default. Its different from stuff like Genesect and Deoxys being allowed at the start of a tier.

Its something worth talking about among better players at any rate. it could be like Kyube and fit in just fine/actually be rather poor for a long time, or it could be like that one April Fools day Giratina-O was unbanned for a day. it certainly has alot of defensive answers, even if its stuff like Celesteela and Tyranitar rather than traditional Walls.

I'm no good at Ubers, so while Ultra is obviously good, could a better player theorymon how good Dusk Mane is going to be?
I'm not too good myself but it's not looking to be great. Once again we have a steel that can't adequately check Xerneas, it's slow as hell, it's not that powerful and its typing is honestly not that good. TBH I think even regular Solagaleo would be better than it. It's a real shame tbh, people had high hopes that Solagaleo would see usage in some shape or form but no.
 

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Even if its Speed is a problem, Rock Polish solves that problem, and you still have a super high Special Attack with great bulk along with STAB Ghost, which is super spammable, and STAB Psyshock for Chansey. Really, Dark-types can be a problem, but even Brick Break can be used on the fourth slot if Tyranitat is that much of a problem, since it easily 2HKOes it even with Timid nature and no boosting item.
 
I'm not really sure what to think about Dawn Wings. Its typing is shit, speed leaves a lot to be desired even for Ubers standards, and it lacks Lunala's Focus Blast leaving it completely man-handled by Dark types like Banded Tyranitar, Hoopa-Unbound, and Ash-Greninja if it were eventually tested in OU, and Yveltal, Arceus-Dark, and support Tyranitar in Ubers.

However, I'm stunned by how many set up moves Necrozma has. It gets Autotomize and Rock Polish, Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and Iron Defense. Lunala and Solgaleo only had access to Calm Mind, in comparison. The question I have, however, is how is it going to fit these moves, other than CM that is, in to its moveset? I feel this mon would need Moongeist Beam, Photon Geyser, and a coverage move that doesn't let it get dicked by certain Dark types for it to have a chance at succeeding wherever it ends up. It gets Signal Beam....yay? It also gets recovery options in Morning Sun and Moonlight, which is great and all, but Lunala had Roost which has twice the amount of PP.

In theory, DW loves the fact that it gets Iron Defense and Calm Mind at the same time as it would make it substantially bulkier, which would alleviate its weaknesses to a degree. But again, what moves get taken off to accommodate such a combo? Both a mono-attacking set of Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Moonlight and Moongeist Beam/Photon Geyser, and Iron Defense + Calm Mind + two STAB attacks sound terrible and look easily exploitable.

Maybe Rock Polish has a better chance of pairing it with CM for a double dance set? A set I just came up with for OU would look something like this:

Necrozma-Dawn Wings @ Buginium Z / Lunalium Z / Psychium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Signal Beam / Psyshock
- Moongeist Beam
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish

At +1, Savage Spinout OHKOs Banded Tyranitar in sand, and after a Rock Polish boost, Signal Beam itself lets it, without needing to Calm Mind, OHKO (Ash) Greninja after Stealth Rock and OHKO Hoopa-Unbound completely. Psyshock could work as an option to hurt special walls like Chansey harder. Even Mega Sableye can't handle this set very well because Knock Off is a 2HKO vs DW Necrozma, and +1 Moongeist Beam 2HKOs Careful Mega Sableye back, and an unboosted Moongeist Beam will still 2HKO after Stealth Rock anyways.

The big issue with a Rock Polish set is that it's still Sucker Punch food, and mons like Mega Mawile and Bisharp (which I can see rising in usage because of all the new Defoggers entering the tier) could take advantage of it.

I'm not really sure if this set would even be that great, but I guess the point to all this is that I wouldn't call off DW Necrozma as a healthy OU mon just yet, as its movepool looks deceptively good despite not having Focus Blast or even Hidden Power Fighting because of the 3 perfect IVs that legends are guaranteed to now have.
 
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I'm not really sure what to think about Dawn Wings. Its typing is shit, speed leaves a lot to be desired even for Ubers standards, and it lacks Lunala's Focus Blast leaving it completely man-handled by Dark types like Banded Tyranitar, Hoopa-Unbound, and Ash-Greninja if it were eventually tested in OU, and Yveltal, Arceus-Dark, and support Tyranitar in Ubers.

However, I'm stunned by how many set up moves Necrozma has. It gets Autotomize and Rock Polish, Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and Iron Defense. Lunala and Solgaleo only had access to Calm Mind, in comparison. The question I have, however, is how is it going to fit these moves, other than CM that is, in to its moveset? I feel this mon would need Moongeist Beam, Photon Geyser, and a coverage move that doesn't let it get dicked by certain Dark types for it to have a chance at succeeding wherever it ends up. It gets Signal Beam....yay? It also gets recovery options in Morning Sun and Moonlight, which is great and all, but Lunala had Roost which has twice the amount of PP.

In theory, DW loves the fact that it gets Iron Defense and Calm Mind at the same time as it would make it substantially bulkier, which would alleviate its weaknesses to a degree. But again, what moves get taken off to accommodate such a combo? Both a mono-attacking set of Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Moonlight and Moongeist Beam/Photon Geyser, and Iron Defense + Calm Mind + two STAB attacks sound terrible and look easily exploitable.

Maybe Rock Polish has a better chance of pairing it with CM for a double dance set? A set I just came up with for OU would look something like this:

Necrozma-Dawn Wings @ Buginium Z / Ghostium Z / Psychium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Signal Beam / Psyshock
- Moongeist Beam
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish

At +1, Savage Spinout OHKOs Banded Tyranitar in sand, and after a Rock Polish boost, Signal Beam itself lets it, without needing to Calm Mind, OHKO (Ash) Greninja after Stealth Rock and OHKO Hoopa-Unbound completely. Psyshock could work as an option to hurt special walls like Chansey harder. Even Mega Sableye can't handle this set very well because Knock Off is a 2HKO vs DW Necrozma, and +1 Moongeist Beam 2HKOs Careful Mega Sableye back, and an unboosted Moongeist Beam will still 2HKO after Stealth Rock anyways.

The big issue with a Rock Polish set is that it's still Sucker Punch food, and mons like Mega Mawile and Bisharp (which I can see rising in usage because of all the new Defoggers entering the tier) could take advantage of it.

I'm not really sure if this set would even be that great, but I guess the point to all this is that I wouldn't call off DW Necrozma as a healthy OU mon just yet, as its movepool looks deceptively good despite not having Focus Blast or even Hidden Power Fighting because of the 3 perfect IVs that legends are guaranteed to now have.
Why are you slashing Ghostium Z? Can't Dawn Wings use Lunalium?
 
I was being sarcastic but i also mend to say Mega Ray, let him return to Ubers.
Do you have a point?

I'm not really sure what to think about Dawn Wings. Its typing is shit, speed leaves a lot to be desired even for Ubers standards, and it lacks Lunala's Focus Blast leaving it completely man-handled by Dark types like Banded Tyranitar, Hoopa-Unbound, and Ash-Greninja if it were eventually tested in OU, and Yveltal, Arceus-Dark, and support Tyranitar in Ubers.

*snip*

I'm not really sure if this set would even be that great, but I guess the point to all this is that I wouldn't call off DW Necrozma as a healthy OU mon just yet, as its movepool looks deceptively good despite not having Focus Blast or even Hidden Power Fighting because of the 3 perfect IVs that legends are guaranteed to now have.
If it's running a mono-attacking set, pretty sure Stored Power is the way to go. Yeah, you'll need to get rid of any dark types, but you'd need to do that anyway.

I think it's definitely worth a suspect. Does it really look that much better than Hoopa-U or Kyu-B?
 

Nexus

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updated the OP with some points about how necrozma's transformation to Ultra Necrozma works along with some more info on Photon geyser and Light That Burns The Sky. Please stop posting in this thread if it has nothing to do with these Pokemon.
 
updated the OP with some points about how necrozma's transformation to Ultra Necrozma works along with some more info on Photon geyser and Light That Burns The Sky. Please stop posting in this thread if it has nothing to do with these Pokemon.
Neuroforce has been confirmed to boost SE moves by 1.2, you should add that to the OP.
 
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