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Boxing Gloves would not need a boost. Hitmonchan gets the boost to Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Drain Punch, Comet Punch, Focus Punch, Elemental Punches, Sky Uppercut, Mega Punch and maybe others I am missing. Only the least used of these needs an acc boost and none of them have potential crash damage. The whole point we are talking about boosting Kicking Gear is exactly because a simple +2 to HJK (as all the reckless boost would provide iirc) does not match up with Boxing Gloves.
 
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Going with rhe following

Boxing Gloves: Increase Defense rank by 1. Iron Fist gives an extra 2bap boost to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Iron Fist if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmonchan

Kicking Gear: Increase Attack Rank by 1. Moves with "kick" on their name get their bap boosted bu 2 and their accuracy by 10 (flat). Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Reckless if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmonlee

Spinning Top: Increases Attack and Defense by 1. Technician gives an extra 2bap boost per hit to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Technician if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmontop.

Something with the next topic or forever hold your peace.


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Regarding morning sun, espeon is iffy with or without it so i dont really care? Although the same result applies to lu ar ray.

Id rather keep that effevt but am indifferent. Thoughts?
 
Either give Musharna back Super Moonlight (and give it to Umbreon while we're at it) or take it away from Espeon. That is all.
 
I don't really see why Espeon should have it, but it's also not really that broken if it does. I'm indifferent on the matter, but think it should be consistent and that Umbreon and Musharna shouldn't have it.
 
Lemme put it this way

MUSHARNA WON'T GET MOONLIGHT BACK


It won't get better moonlight for balance reasons, not flavor reasons. So arguing that espeon can't have it because Musharna can't have is dubious (I was gonna say a less flattering word) because Musharna is a very different pokemon from Espeon. Better Moonlight is too good for Musharna because it is already pretty good and Moon Stone already gives a boost to STAB and to the best stat. Espeon is NOT a good pokemon, if compared to Musharna, and Solar Ray doesn't boost Psychic (it boosts Magic Bounce against...well I can't think of many moves espeon suddenly get protection against) so the case for Morning Sun on it is better than for Musharna. In other words, it could use the extra boost way more than Musharna.

And before anyone mentions giving it to Umbreon, I suggest you check the NDA. Both Lunar Ray and Solar Ray boost Moonlight/Morning Sun, so Umbreon does get his share of the thing. Also, I must point out that originally Umbreon and Espeon had this and Moon Stone didn't and moonlight was included on it for balance reasons (not flavor).


So seriously, if you feel Espeon and Umbreon become too good if Moonlight/Morning Sun are boosted on them, then you may have a point in arguing for the removal of that boost. But if your sole argument is "consistency because musharna", then I suggest you think more before posting. We had it on Lunar/Solar Ray and not on Moon Stone for a couple years I think and consistency was NEVER an issue.

EDIT: Not to mention that neither Solar Ray nor Lunar Ray were even mentioned as problems on the main thread. So the more I think about it, the less I want to talk about espeon and umbreon and just focus on Lucario, which is the point of this thread.
 
Next user to mention Musharna in relation to Moonlight gets infracted.

If you do not like that it had the Moonlight buff removed, here's five cents, use it to ring up someone who cares.
 
Moving on to Lucario...

What I believe we need to think of here is not only how Solar Ray would compare to RC but also that Lucario is losing access to the two stat boost from Soothe Bell. The permanent +1 atk an automatic justified would give pretty much makes up for the loss of +1 atk rank imo. +2 final damage is better against neutral and resisted, only slightly worse against 2x weak and suffers a little against 4x weak. But then +1 speed stage counters this.

Basically I think the proposed Solar Ray is fine for lucario
 
Agreeing with deadfox, although I'd like to ask for clarification, if possible - how exactly does "negative effects from Skill Swap" work for Espeon? Who should determine what is "negative", aside from the obvious cases like Slow Start and Defeatist? If we can't make it clear cut, then I'd say maybe we should just remove Skill Swap from the explicit description?
 
ZhengTann said:
Agreeing with deadfox, although I'd like to ask for clarification, if possible - how exactly does "negative effects from Skill Swap" work for Espeon? Who should determine what is "negative", aside from the obvious cases like Slow Start and Defeatist? If we can't make it clear cut, then I'd say maybe we should just remove Skill Swap from the explicit description?
Click to expand...
Negative effects: losing abilities
Positive effects: gaining abilities

That sounds broken, so hopefully its definied differently
 
I think the description covers Skill Swap

Solar Ray: The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
Affects: Eevee, Espeon, Riolu, and Lucario.


So espeon can't lose an ability due to opponent's skill swap. But its own skill swap or the skill swap from an ally will make it lose the ability just fine. Personally it should be fine.

But I really feel we should make a full list of the moves affected by this boosted magic bounce. For power reference and to see the possible interactions.
 
Would espeon still gain abils from skill swap? And would the opponent still gain abils without espy losing them?
Edit for clarity: the opponent is using the skill swap
 
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I think this is what happens:
If Espeon uses Skill Swap, the swap occurs as normal since it was initiated by the (change user in desc to holder)
If an enemy uses Skill Swap, then Espeon gets an ability, but does not give up its ability since it didn't use the move
​
NOTE: not initiated by the user or an ally in the description should be not initiated by the holder or one of its allies to clarify its meaning
 
For reference, the "other" moves with negative direct effects to opponents and not usually blocked by Magic Coat/Bounce are:
- Acid Armor
- ?After You? (negative is iffy here)
- Barrier
- ?Bestow? (negative depends on item)
- Ghost Curse
- Destiny Bond
- Field effects (Terrains, Fairy Lock (funny thing, this targets the field), weather, haze etc)
- Follow Me/Rage Powder
- Guard Split
- Guard Swap
- Harden/Iron Defense
- Heart Swap
- Imprison
- Memento
- Nightmare
- Pain Split
- Perish Song
- Power Split
- Power Swap
- Psycho Shift
- Quash
- Skill Swap
- Snatch
- Trick/Switcheroo
- Teeter Dance
- Trick-or-Treat (weirdly enough Forest's Curse is marked as being affected by magic coat. Oh well)


It IS a big list. But the actually list is probably smaller as some moves are iffy (I will probably make a discussion just for this effect at some point...or discuss it between mods). But there are only few moves (Destiny Bond, Imprison, Pain Split, Perish Song, Skill Swap, Snatch) that are actually relevant. And those are relevant on longer battles, which are less likely to happen with espeon since it is a glass-cannon through and through.

Long story short, I don't feel it is a problem for it to keep full moonlight (same with umbreon). If you have a probably lemme know and back up your argument.

- - - - -

Since we spent too much time in this item, let's move on (if you have anything to say regarding solar ray, do it soon). Next items are:


Relic Crown: Boosts the BAP of Ancient Power by 3 and of Rock Slide by 1. Boosts SpD rank by 1. Increases STAB bonus by 1.
Affects: Mamoswine, Piloswine, Yanma, Yanmega, Tangela, Tangrowth

Casteliacone Deluxe: Boosts the BAP of Rollout by 3. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. Increases STAB bonus by 1. Boosts the BAP of Super Effective attacks by 1.
Affects: Lickitung, Lickilicky.

Duel Gloves: Boosts the BAP of Double Hit by 2 per hit. Increases STAB bonus by 1. Multiply the holder's speed by 1.15. Flinch on Fling.
Affects: Aipom, Ambipom.


Do notice that those items originate from the same source (evolution via knowing a certain move) so it is REALLY recommended that they share the same logic. Preferable a logic involving the moves that cause the evolution. Other than that, feel free to suggest whatever.

Thoughts?
 
Im still pushing for a name change on duel gloves because its supposed to be a present participle, which would take the form Dueling Gloves

Also it helps with clarity because people think it might be dual gloves.[/hide]

Anout fling: Instaflinch ambipom has been widely complained about, though I take no issue with it (King's rock does the same thing, as does razor fang.)
Just because weavile's sig item doesn't do it (insert salt here) doesn't mean ambipom's shouldn't.

Possible replacements though would include taunt, def drop, swagger.
I like the idea of taunt actually, come to think of it.
 
WRT Relic Crown: Hmm thing of clarification with the Rock Slide boost, is it before or after a spread modifier. Otherwise great item

WRT Casteliacone Deluxe: Be sure to include the "If there is a tie for highest base stat, then increase each of those stats by one (1) Rank" part into the description so we don't have another Dragon Scale implementation error situation.

WRT Duel Gloves: I'm a proponent of the name change to Dueling Gloves in order to better clarify their purpose. Moving to Double Hit, 16 BAP STAB (which yields +4) might be excessive when they also get Pickup + Fling with Flinches and an extra 15% Speed. I say either reduce the flinch chance on Fling with this item to like 40%, or reduce the BAP boost to Double Hit to 1 BAP per hit. If the dropping flinch chance isn't a viable idea, then I'd say make it Taunt the target for 3a/6a since they are "Dueling" gloves.
 
Relic Crown: I really can't see any major issues with it. All 3 FEs like the SpD boost, all will somewhat get use from the Ancientpower boost. My only comments would be that Yanmega misses out on the Rock Slide boost so could maybe do with something to even it up, and I'd consider mimicing the wording on Rare Candy in boosting STAB by 2 if mon-typed, just for Tangrowth.

Casteliacone Deluxe: Like jay said, it needs rewording to remove any confusion about boosting both stats if tied. Alternatively it could just be re-written to raise Defence and Special Defence by one rank since both Lickitung and Lickilicky get the same boost. Other than that I see no issues.

Duel Gloves: I'd probably agree with calling it Dueling Gloves, for whatever that is worth. I'm not too sure the speed boost is necessary and I'd suggest trading it for an Attack rank boost (aka highest true base stat). Like others I think flinching on fling is a tad too much. I like the flavour idea of it acting as a taunt. I'd also consider making the item not consider Ambipom/Aipom encumbered to allow for max power Acrobatics, as this ties in strongly to the flavour of Ambipom's extra hands and whatnot letting it do more than one thing at a time. Basically I would propose:

Duel Gloves: Boosts the BAP of Double Hit by 2 per hit. Increases STAB bonus by 1. Boosts Atk rank by 1. Fling causes the target to become taunted for 3 actions. The holder is not considered encumbered.
Affects: Aipom, Ambipom.
 
If we are changing the name of Duel Gloves, why not just call it Dual Gloves? Personally it makes more sense and fits in with Ambipom's theme more but ehhh whatever.

No real opinion on current items at the moment other than that Relic Crown is fine as it is.
 
Well if we are going with taunt, Dueling Gloves makes sense because slapping with a glove = challenging to a duel = taunt.
Dual gloves leaves us with no real connection to taunt, I think.
 
Putting my support for the proposed Dual/Dueling/Duel/whatever gloves by deadfox.

Relic Crown should be fine, though we should probably discuss Glacier's proposed edit at some point.

Casteliacone Deluxe...honestly it seems a fair bit worse than the other two, primarily because Ancient Power is good, and Dual Hit is a nice STAB move, but Rollout is neither good nor STAB. What's especially an issue here is that Rollout has to be used multiple times in a row in order to have good power. In ASB you just never really get that many actions to deal with it, or otherwise risk falling behind if you try to take advantage of Rollout (Counter for instance). Personally, I'd prefer to scratch the Rollout and add +1 to super effective moves, as that'd be generally more useful (yes this does mean that Lickilicky gets a better Expert Belt, but I don't think he's sweeping teams anytime soon). If we absolutely must keep a Rollout boost to keep with the running theme, I would advocate adding either "and If Rollout misses, is disengaged, or is blocked for more than 2 actions, then it resets" or just scrap the power boost and say "If Rollout misses, is disengaged, or is blocked, BAP and EN do not reset".

As it stands I feel like the Casteliacone is worse than the others, possibly worse than Rare Candy.
 
Maxim said:
Casteliacone Deluxe...honestly it seems a fair bit worse than the other two, primarily because Ancient Power is good, and Dual Hit is a nice STAB move, but Rollout is neither good nor STAB. What's especially an issue here is that Rollout has to be used multiple times in a row in order to have good power. In ASB you just never really get that many actions to deal with it, or otherwise risk falling behind if you try to take advantage of Rollout (Counter for instance). Personally, I'd prefer to scratch the Rollout and add +1 to super effective moves, as that'd be generally more useful (yes this does mean that Lickilicky gets a better Expert Belt, but I don't think he's sweeping teams anytime soon). If we absolutely must keep a Rollout boost to keep with the running theme, I would advocate adding either "and If Rollout misses, is disengaged, or is blocked for more than 2 actions, then it resets" or just scrap the power boost and say "If Rollout misses, is disengaged, or is blocked, BAP and EN do not reset"
Click to expand...

Piggybacking off of that one. Yeah Casteliacone Deluxe runs into the problem of boosting a bad move in ASB. Solution would be making it do something like add 1 Ball Charge per use. Replace the term "Consecutive Uses" in the BAP and EN formula with the term "Number of Ball Charges." Make it so that the BAP can't reset, and the Ball Charges cap at 5, but all Ball Counters are lost on switch out/phazing. This makes Rollout not absolutely terrible.
 
So...I was thinking

Lickilicky usually comes with Lagging Tail. We removed Lagging Tail from Snorlax, because it leaves it vulnerable to dynamic punch.

Guess which ability Lickilicky has and Snorlax hasn't? except for Cloud Nine and Oblivious.

Yeah, Own Tempo. In other words I have the following proposal:


Casteliacone Deluxe: Boosts the BAP of Rollout by 3 and causes its BAP to also be boosted by non-consecutive usage. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. blah blah blah tie. Causes the Pokemon to always move last within its priority bracket, regardless of Speed. The Pokemon's attacks will never miss an opponent and opponents' attacks will never miss the Pokemon. OHKO moves have normal accuracy when used with or against a Pokemon with this item.
Affects: Lickitung, Lickilicky.


Technically speaking if you use Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, you get +2bap, so it is like Expert Belt in a way. Add that and the better defenses and the better rollout (there most for flavor, but I suppose it can make a difference at some point) and the result is somewhat nifty. Although I don't mind adding one more thing possibly.

thoughts?
 
I will reiterate that CCD should say that it boosts Def and SpD instead of boosting highest stat because that's what it does anyway.
 
WRT Casteliacone Deluxe proposal: Change that whole not missing part to "Grants the holder the ability No Guard." Less wordy imo
 
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