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NFE Pokemon in UU

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So if we DID did allow this, the requirements would one of the following:
  • Different Typing
  • Different Ability
  • Drastic Rearrangement of Stats
  • Pikachu

i was thinking alow anything in UU/NU that meats at least one of these requirements and is not too powerful for that tier.

1. has a different type. (charizard-charmeleon, surskit-mansqurain)
2. has at least one stat above its fully evolved form. (onyx, porygon 2)
3. has unique item. (pika, clampearl)
4. has a different ability. (dragonite-dragonair, majikarp-gyrados)
5. can not not always evolve into its later form. (phione, combee)

or my preference is this:

alow all pokemon into whatever tier fits their power, not the power of some evolution. send stuff like kadabra, haunter to BL.
 
i was thinking alow anything in UU/NU that meats at least one of these requirements and is not too powerful for that tier.

1. has a different type. (charizard-charmeleon, surskit-mansqurain)
2. has at least one stat above its fully evolved form. (onyx, porygon 2)
3. has unique item. (pika, clampearl)
4. has a different ability. (dragonite-dragonair, majikarp-gyrados)
5. can not not always evolve into its later form. (phione, combee)

or my preference is this:

alow all pokemon into whatever tier fits their power, not the power of some evolution. send stuff like kadabra, haunter to BL.

I have problems with number 5. Phione can't evolve at all, so it should be tiered right now. Male combee are a moot point, since combee does evolve into Vespiquen.

But besides that you bassically said what I said, + clamperl, forgot about it.......
 
I have problems with number 5. Phione can't evolve at all, so it should be tiered right now. Male combee are a moot point, since combee does evolve into Vespiquen.

ok then point 5 can be removed.

but i propose a new point
5. has a significantly diferent movepool, smaller is ok. (combee, febass, load of stuff)
a pokemon like this will not make UU/NU OUlite as they play diferently.

But besides that you bassically said what I said, + clamperl, forgot about it.......

kinda... but i clarifyed it a bit.

also what do you think about my second idea?
 
I have problems with number 5. Phione can't evolve at all, so it should be tiered right now. Male combee are a moot point, since combee does evolve into Vespiquen.

But besides that you bassically said what I said, + clamperl, forgot about it.......
The way I see it, I fail to understand why Pokemon like Combee, Clamperl and Pikachu are debatable as UU Pokemon to begin with, given that their evolved forms are ALSO UU. Therefore, they should automatically be UU in the same way that the likes of Gloom and Bayleef are allowed, i.e. on the basis that an NFE is placed in the same tier as its fully evolved form.
 
ok what would you do about syther (better speed, diferent type)? charmeleon (diferent type, less SR weak)? majikarp(diferent ability, diferent type, MUCH worse movepool/stats)?
 
ok what would you do about syther (better speed, diferent type)? charmeleon (diferent type, less SR weak)? majikarp(diferent ability, diferent type, MUCH worse movepool/stats)?
Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I'll answer it anyway.

Scyther I'm fine with in UU as it plays completely differently from Scizor and they share very few identical resists/weaknesses. The only question I have about Scyther is whether it is too powerful in UU, but that is a different case altogether, and so far this hasn't been the case.

I don't think anyone would seriously object to Magikarp in UU. Using the 'OU Lite' argument is ridiculous, and countering it would not force you to adopt OU style tactics in any way at all.

The only debatable one therefore for me is Charmeleon. To answer this I think we need to consider the role that Charizard plays in OU. If we adopt the assumption that the vast majority of Charizards are of the BellyZard variety, which I think is valid one, and that this is the one set that makes Charizard truly threatening in OU, then I find it difficult to allow Charmeleon on the basis that, if it were allowed in, almost every Charmeleon would carry that same set (except something else over Earthquake, probably Dragon Claw) as it is probably the only way that Charmeleon is threatening or even competitive at that level.
Although Charizard is not OU, but technically BL, in my experience I've seen my fair share of Charizards in that environment, all of which were BellyZard, and appears often enough there for the need for any decent player to recognize the threat it poses. Therefore, if Charmeleon is allowed in UU, I foresee a similar approach to countering it as people do with Charizard, which signals to me OU-Lite. In short, no for me.
 
The only debatable one therefore for me is Charmeleon. To answer this I think we need to consider the role that Charizard plays in OU. If we adopt the assumption that the vast majority of Charizards are of the BellyZard variety, which I think is valid one, and that this is the one set that makes Charizard truly threatening in OU, then I find it difficult to allow Charmeleon on the basis that, if it were allowed in, almost every Charmeleon would carry that same set (except something else over Earthquake, probably Dragon Claw) as it is probably the only way that Charmeleon is threatening or even competitive at that level.
Although Charizard is not OU, but technically BL, in my experience I've seen my fair share of Charizards in that environment, all of which were BellyZard, and appears often enough there for the need for any decent player to recognize the threat it poses. Therefore, if Charmeleon is allowed in UU, I foresee a similar approach to countering it as people do with Charizard, which signals to me OU-Lite. In short, no for me.

Even if the best set on Charmeleon does turn out to be the drummer, I am still not convinced that would be enough to see its banning.

Firstly, there are plenty of pokemon that duplicate each other's roles across the tiers. A great example is this generic moveset:
Rain Dance
~ Surf
~ Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
~ Ice Beam
that many water pokemon share, and with minor variations depending on metagame it can form some of the most effective sets for pokemon as diverse as Luminion, Luvdisc, and Manaphy.
While this moveset may be the most valid for many pokemon, it may still be repeated across metagames with no variation. No one raises objections to this because the pokemon are all fully evolved forms and so do not suffer from an entrenched bias.

Secondly as others have brought up before me, while Charizard and Charmeleon have almost the same movesets, Charizard may still be distinguished by typing. Because Charmeleon has no immunities, it is much harder to bring it in on a choice-predicted move, while at the same time the lower weakness to Stealth Rock changes whether the player may rely on using the rocks once or more time to halve his Pokemon's health before subbing and activating the Salac Berry.

Finally, I doubt that Belly Drum is the set that really defines Charmeleon in UU. There are, as far as I know, four Drummers in UU: Linoone, Poliwrath, Politoed, and Poliwhirl (although Poliwhirl is an NFE as well as Charmeleon, its higher speed gives it an advantage on Poliwrath that may come in handy when Drumming or Scarfing. Neutral speed nature whirl has higher speed than +speed wrath, so the lower attack on whirl may be justified by a drumming set with higher speed.) If a UU player wants a Drummer, he is probably going to go after one of these rather than Charmeleon, whose main contribution as a Belly Drummer lies in his moveset (and higher speed than Wrath perhaps, though his attack is lower than whirl's).
Given that the true philosophy of team building (a la Surgo post from the beginning of Stark Mountain or something around there) is to use pokemon to fill niches rather than to copy the stats of a successful and similar form, the best set for Charmeleon in UU is arguably not its Drumming set given the fact that other pokemon pull off Drumming better than it does. Although Charizard's stats and typing give it a premier position in OU for the role of Salac-Drum Sweeping, Charmeleon is outclassed in that role in UU, and so theoretically Charmeleon's ideal role is something more akin to niche filling than anything.
 
In an ideal word, every pokemon would be tiered, anyone up to the challenge?

Edit: Just realized, 498 pokemon would have a hard time fitting into a Uber + 4 teir teir list. You would need practically 2-4 more tiers in order to fit them all in.
 
In an ideal word, every pokemon would be tiered, anyone up to the challenge?
i would love to help, however i dont know that much about metagames other than OU and a little Ubers.

but i will do what i can.
Edit: Just realized, 498 pokemon would have a hard time fitting into a Uber + 4 teir teir list. You would need practically 2-4 more tiers in order to fit them all in.

i agree with this. i think about 50-80 pokemon per teir is the best way to go so we will have between 6 and 9 tiers + ubers. this is too much. maybe we could have Ubers, OU, BL, UU, UUBL (for low UU's), NU, IU (Impossible to Use. for stuff like metopod, magikarp, unknown)

the 4 tier systum worked great for when there was 151 or 251 but with nealy 500 i say it could do with some updates.
 
In an ideal word, every pokemon would be tiered, anyone up to the challenge?

Edit: Just realized, 498 pokemon would have a hard time fitting into a Uber + 4 teir teir list. You would need practically 2-4 more tiers in order to fit them all in.

Remove all pokemon which can evolve twice first, with the Exception of Trapinch.
For instance, why play Charmander, when you can play Charmeleon? Why play Bagon, when you can play Shellgon? Why Ralts, when you can use Kirlia?
 
Remove all pokemon which can evolve twice first, with the Exception of Trapinch.
For instance, why play Charmander, when you can play Charmeleon? Why play Bagon, when you can play Shellgon? Why Ralts, when you can use Kirlia?


Cause I am pretty sure that Charmander, Ralts, and Bagon all COULD be useable in lower tiers against a few FE pokemon.

Maybe im just being crazy, but this seems like something that would be interesting to do.
 
so... from what i see the options are this

1. let only pokemon that are totaly diferent from any evo have there own tier. (syther)

2. let pokemon that have a diference that makes them play diferently in there own tier. (polywhrl, )

3. let those pokemon that have some diference in there own tier. (charmeleon, surskit)

4. tier each pokemon based on its own power. (dratini, charmander)

i like 3 and 4 best.
 
so... from what i see the options are this

1. let only pokemon that are totaly diferent from any evo have there own tier. (syther)

2. let pokemon that have a diference that makes them play diferently in there own tier. (polywhrl, )

3. let those pokemon that have some diference in there own tier. (charmeleon, surskit)

4. tier each pokemon based on its own power. (dratini, charmander)

i like 3 and 4 best.

How on earth are you defining the difference between "totaly"[sic] and "some" difference?
If a difference exists, then it exists. Every pokemon is always going to be different from another in some way in the same way that they are going to share similarities. It is more meaningful to be specific about what differences are meant.
Furthermore, you seem to be implying that you would prefer to create some kind of NFE metagame. That seems profoundly unnecessary to me. There would be such a small number of players in that game that it would take ages to gather the data to empirically tier the pokemon therein. It would be more significant to allow (even just some) NFE's in UU.
 
some people want to let syther into UU but make many other pokemon not alowed, i agree with you on this but wanted to reprisent everyone.

true.... you are refering to IU? but i expect it would be played for the lol factor more than anything.
 
Here are my "break points"

1. "Major" difference where NFE is better than FE with a specific set: Scyther / Scizor is one of the best examples. This is defined as: The NFE pokemon can do something better than its evolution. In this example, Scyther is clearly a better sweeper due to his much higher speed stat.

2. "Major" difference where NFE is not better than FE with any set. When there is a clear difference in stats, abilities and so forth that force the NFE to play differently, but not necessarily superior to, the FE in the specific situation. Tangrowth vs Tangela is the most clear case. Tangrowth typically runs a physical tank with physical attacks (nothing beats Power Whip), while Tangela will run a physical tank who runs special attacks.

However, Tangrowth's Sp. Attack beats Tangela's Sp. Attack, so you can give the same set to Tangrowth and clearly Tangrowth will do better. Compare this to giving CB Technician Aerial Ace on Scyther vs Scizor, and it is clear that Scyther beats Scizor. The difference between this and the last difference is again, the FE can run the NFE's set better.

3. "Minor" difference where NFE is better than FE. Dragonair vs Dragonite is the best example. Dragonair can run a status absorber set due to Shed Skin, but this difference is at best minor. Dragonite's ability sucks, and Dragonair's ability also sucks.

The primary difference between this "minor" difference and "major" difference is that the thing that makes Dragonair "better" than Dragonite sucks. I admit there is some room for debate / subjectivism here (Is gaining Ground STAB a minor or a major difference between Pupitar/Tyranitar?), but at least we got a few categories to think about.

4. Minor differences where the NFE is worse than the FE. Weavile gets Pressure, Sneasel gets Keen Eye / Inner Focus. None of these abilities help them sweep (making them a minor difference), but still Sneasel can't do anything better than the NFE even if he somehow attempts to take advantage of Keen Eye / Inner Focus.

------

My bias is towards allowing #1, and is neutral in #3. In both #2 and #4, I am biased towards not allowing them. However, as long as these are applied consistently and intelligently, I'm willing to accept any combination of the above.
 
i would argue that each pokemon should be tierd based on its own power, rarther than the power of some part of its evolutionry line.

if we chose to tier some pokemon based on there evo's power i beleve we should do it like this

any pokemon that has some diference (type diference, ability diference, a stat higher than its evos) should be put into a tier based on its own power. this is easy to define.

or we could alow dragontamers point 2, but it is harder to define and could lead to disagrements.

also dragontamer what do you think about charmeleon?
 
Currently, I am working on getting an EV trained version of every final form.
I only have a few exception in this:

  • Pikachu (w/ Light Ball)
  • Scyther (Radically different typing & Base Stats)
  • Porygon2 (w/ Trace)
  • Maybe Trapinch (Arena Trap & Different typing))

While I would really like every pokemon to be teired, I doubt anyone here is going to put forth the time and effort required to tier every pokemon. So we must only look at the ones with notable difference.
 
The Tier placing of NFE Pokemon is by all means not new, a number of sites have already done so - but then again, the Smogon Tier list is amusingly debatable in general.

More in detail, there is indeed a need for such a list, since for those of you who have played UU alot, Chansey is simply too good for it. So are guys like Dusclops, Kadabra, or Rhydon if used well.

On the other hand, pokemon like Sneasel, Electabuzz or Magmar are perfectly useable in UU, I don't see why not.
 
As long as we have people willing to tier NFE's, then I do not see why we should not allow them in UU. It's not as if the problem NFE's aren't obvious, and if others pop out of the woodwork at some point in the future we can just reconsider them. It is definitely a more free and more open attitude to classifying pokemon then searching for reasons for or criteria by which to exclude UU's.

What really gives a person the right to say that any pokemon is so redundant that even if someon were given the task to pontificate a use for the pokemon for eternity that no one would come up with a use for it, and therefore the pokemon does not deserve a place in the metagame, or that the pokemon is so redundant that its inclusion, if it doesn't overcentralize the metagame, still somehow decreases variety?
 
TOTALY agreeing with Darkflagrance, i would be happy to help with the tiering and i expect many people would jump at the chance to help.
 
I must assume that there are no objections to the tiering of NFE's? Nothing stops anyone from actually doing it, actually. Furthermore, we may already pretty much know the transgressive NFE's that would break UU like Chansey, Kadabra, Haunter, Dusclops, and so on that would start banned a la Deoxys and be readmitted if the metagame got boring (a possibility I feel is unlikely to happen for UU). The NFE's that are debatable, such as Sneasel and Charmeleon, I would probably classify as UU to allow them a chance to display empirically their potential brokenness before determing if they deserve banning to BL.
 
agreed dark, i think we should wait a few days to see if anyone has any objections then maybe start the tiering? anyone else want to help?
 
ok i think we should make a start on the tiering, even if it is not accepted it would be good to make a start.

i propose i start doing the RBY pokes, dark can you do the GSC pokes?
if anyone else wants to help say so.
 
I think we should focus on completing the teir list we have right not (what are the NU pokes again?) before we dabble in adding the rest of the 498
 
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