Could just essentially move everything down 1 tier per evolution stage. For example, Charizard is BL, so Charmeleon would be UU, Charmander NU. This is mostly for things that aren't that different from their evolved forms. This also makes the Hippo and Snover BL rather than UU.
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NFE Pokemon in UU
- Thread starter Phuquoph
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That may represent what happens eventually, probably for the most part the results will be about the same, but taken at face value it doesn't make sense since BL is power [faux]tier and OU/UU are usage tiers.
While that might be a decent starting point, I'm sure people will come up with all kinds of exceptions to that rule.
I guess my point is, if NFEs are going to be allowed, they should be placed based on their own merits, not how they might change the nature of the metagame. After they drop into place and players actually use them, then let the environment work itself out. But even if current UU players aren't big fans of change, you're only artificially preserving an existing metagame by trying to force anything that might cause a significant change out. It's like people who hang onto "tradition" for no apparent reason. "I've always done it this way and so I'm going to keep doing it this way."
*shrug*
I don't play a lot of UU so it doesn't matter as much to me I guess, but I find it intellectually dishonest to try and let all of these new pokemon into the metagame to "encourage diversity" or open up new opportunities for players and then restrict anything that will actually change the metagame.
I guess my point is, if NFEs are going to be allowed, they should be placed based on their own merits, not how they might change the nature of the metagame. After they drop into place and players actually use them, then let the environment work itself out. But even if current UU players aren't big fans of change, you're only artificially preserving an existing metagame by trying to force anything that might cause a significant change out. It's like people who hang onto "tradition" for no apparent reason. "I've always done it this way and so I'm going to keep doing it this way."
*shrug*
I don't play a lot of UU so it doesn't matter as much to me I guess, but I find it intellectually dishonest to try and let all of these new pokemon into the metagame to "encourage diversity" or open up new opportunities for players and then restrict anything that will actually change the metagame.
If its really a religious experience or something, then people should just make two environments:
UU - for the current metagame
and
UU-NFE - for one allowing the NFEs into the game
Then you don't have to placate anyone and people are free to experiment under whichever system they would like. I'm sure people will argue that it will split the already small pool of UU players even further, but you clearly can't unify them in the current environment either. The problem is that people don't want to change, so don't make them change. Just give them a chance to try something new.
If that's not acceptable, then I think we should either go all the way and let the metagame (and tiers) evolve based on the results, or continue to make NFEs in the same tier as their fully-evolved forms. But trying to half-heartedly allow the NFEs in under heavy restrictions is stupid and will only lead to long, ridiculous arguments on the forums and probably in the middle of battles as well. Judge the pokes on their own merits or don't bother at all. That's practical and intellectually honest.
UU - for the current metagame
and
UU-NFE - for one allowing the NFEs into the game
Then you don't have to placate anyone and people are free to experiment under whichever system they would like. I'm sure people will argue that it will split the already small pool of UU players even further, but you clearly can't unify them in the current environment either. The problem is that people don't want to change, so don't make them change. Just give them a chance to try something new.
If that's not acceptable, then I think we should either go all the way and let the metagame (and tiers) evolve based on the results, or continue to make NFEs in the same tier as their fully-evolved forms. But trying to half-heartedly allow the NFEs in under heavy restrictions is stupid and will only lead to long, ridiculous arguments on the forums and probably in the middle of battles as well. Judge the pokes on their own merits or don't bother at all. That's practical and intellectually honest.
There seem to be so few people playing UU as it is, do you really want to divide it further?
I'd rather go for the latter, but then there are those who clearly disagree with this stance ... the only reason I'm trying to find some middle ground is that it is clear that some posters are not going to be satisfied until NFE's are implemented, and I rather try and offer some input so that UU doesn't evolve into something I loathe.
I'm a little confused as to how the exclusion of two NFE's out of the god knows how many hundred constitutes a "heavy" restriction ...
Shiney Oddish: while i think that the weather NFE's should be alowed or at least tested, i know that you know much more about how UU workes so if you say they should be baned i will exept that.
@ erictheespeon: This was my greater point. All pokemon with a significant difference from their evolutions would be treated independantly. Out of the rest, all pokemon whose evolutions are OU (barring a certain few, including those which were OU before they were given evolutions) would be considered for UU and BL. All those whose evolutions are UU would be automatically relegated to NU.
It speeds up the process without making unnecessary generalisations, and without having to go through every pokemon and fight over what place it holds, and instead let things like shoddy do the talking. On a site like this, competitive battling is always going to be based around using the strongest pokemon for your strategy - and while UU is much less about that kind of thinking (ie. deliberately playing with weaker-than-average pokemon), it still has a definite power curve. NU NFE versions of UU pokes may still get used in UU if the player has a mind to, there's nothing stopping them - but they won't be as powerful if they're not one of those few exceptions to the rule.
The stance regarding auto-weather was being proposed long before I entered the UU fray, and was suggested by bigger and better battlers than I could ever hope to be ... I just happen to agree with it.
I simply reiterate here as a number of people who have significantly contributed to the BL/UU discussion thread are not active within this particular topic.
Piloswine: does well in NU/Uu i think its pretty good there. 100 BP Choice Band Ice Shard hurts and Stab Ice+Ground are a good combo too. So Piloswine should compentive in UU Clause.
Clamperl: Has the highest SAtk of all with Deepseatooth so he should be good in UU its reach 542 SAtk then its amazing stat we talking about.
Noctowl: Should go up to UU its stats do it to a decent Special Wall and Supporter 100 BP in HP and 96 BP in SDef aren't so bad Insomnia are good too. Noctowl maybe little underastimated.
Eevee: Can do alot of damage with hes unique ability adaptability. Flail can do much damage when it reach 1-4 HP. FLail+Adaptability+STAB= Hurt.
What you think?
Clamperl: Has the highest SAtk of all with Deepseatooth so he should be good in UU its reach 542 SAtk then its amazing stat we talking about.
Noctowl: Should go up to UU its stats do it to a decent Special Wall and Supporter 100 BP in HP and 96 BP in SDef aren't so bad Insomnia are good too. Noctowl maybe little underastimated.
Eevee: Can do alot of damage with hes unique ability adaptability. Flail can do much damage when it reach 1-4 HP. FLail+Adaptability+STAB= Hurt.
What you think?
Why is noctowl there when he's a fully evolved Poke?
Well, based on the post trying to make all Pokemons into tiers, the NU tier is going to be filled up, and fast. I think it would be easier to single out several Pokemons for BL, and throw the rest into UU for now, at least until the UU/NU tier is defined.
Well, based on the post trying to make all Pokemons into tiers, the NU tier is going to be filled up, and fast. I think it would be easier to single out several Pokemons for BL, and throw the rest into UU for now, at least until the UU/NU tier is defined.
ok so here the list
edit: made by darkflagrence
Chansey (This is a sop thrown to the Blissey haters. If someone wants to argue for Chansey inclusion, by all means do so. Everyone will despise you.)
Dusclops (It wasn’t even UU last generation and now has Will-O-Wisp.)
Haunter (Gengar 0.5, it lacks Focus Punch. However, it is still almost as diverse as its evolution.)
Hippopotas (auto-weather)
Snover (auto-weather)
Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power)
Questionable Metagame Influence – It is harder to determine whether the following would break the UU metagame. The question of whether to send the following to Borderline or allow them in UU may be debated:
Magneton (Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise may slay Aggron and possibly other steels.)
Sneasel (Sneasel has a paltry base attack but it possesses the movepool of its evolution. With Swords Dance it still might break UU)
Rhydon (It has a higher ATK and sp def tier than Aggron but lower on the def tier. Both have glaring 4x weaknesses. The high Attack may see it banned.)
Gligar (Gligar has improved substantially since last generation, gaining a good recovery move and stuff like Stone Edgeand Night Slash. However, it lacks the elemental fangs of its evolution. If included, it would counter Pinsir handily though.)
can anyone think of any other pokemon to add? gabite? metang? stuff like those?
interesting.. that was my first thought too.. but 45 base speed and not too good (80/70/60) defences ruin it IMO.
maye a scarf set? but its max with a nutral nature is only 283, and even + nature is 310, good but beatable.
An interesting case. My first instinct was that the drop in stats, Attack and Special Defense especially, is significant enough to allow it in, but now you mention it, 100% accurate Dynamicpunch is very annoying to deal with, as anyone who has faced a Machamp in OU without Slowbro or a Ghost will know all too well. I'd put it on the list of questionables.
Apart from that I agree with all of eric's list apart from Rhydon. This guy was too powerful for UU in Advance and has only improved significantly in the D/P transition. To go along with Stone Edge and Rock Polish, Rhydon has also gained decent physical moves in a wide variety of types including Fire, Electric, Ice, Dragon, Dark and Ghost, all off a huge 130 base, making Golem more jealous than ever. Not even a questionable imo, especially when the likes of Kadabra and Haunter are considered unbalancing with their far inferior stats.
EDIT: Oh, and eric, paltry is hardly the word I'd use to describe Sneasel's base attack.
lem: it was not writen by me, the QMI's will be banned for now anyway. tested later.
More like... autoweather lasts only for 10 turns. That would solve the issue almost completely while still giving a massive boost to teams (lasting longer than heat/damp/whatever rock).
Anyway, Walrein, Lapras, and Glaceon are UU material because hail doesn't exist. When Specs Glaceon Blizzard friggen 2-hit KOs Sp. Def tier 125.08 and below... aka, 2-hits Umbreon, Shuckle and even friggen Deoxys-Defense... the last thing you want to do is give these guys infinite hail to spam Blizzard.
And Stallrein doesn't need to go to UU >_> Lapras is boarderline BL as it is...
Anyway, turning 3 solid UU pokemon into 3 BL Pokemon (or at very least, debatable pokemon), just so that Snover can go into UU doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Especially when it is such a sucky pokemon.
I don't play UU very much, but i can say evos should be on a case by case basis. Example: Chansey. Blissey wannabe, and would wall everything to hell. However, an evo that either has a higher stat than it's evo (Scyther) or different type (Charmeleon) should be allowed. Also things that were UU or NU but got an evo should be allowed too unless they got new moves or abilities that make them more powerful. Example: Yanma. It got an evo, but was previously UU. Dusclops was OU, so it shouldnt be UU.
The question whether to allow permanent weather in UU is a very interesting one... extremely debatable, but I'd have to go with yes in a pinch.
The reason Hippopotas and Snover would be banned to BL is quite clearly to prevent SS / Hail teams from running riot in UU like they do in superior tiers. Now, this whole runniong riot thing isn't so easy as it sounds.
For one, you have to consider both Hippopotas and Snover - these two, statswise, would be considered NU pokemon no doubt (without their ability) - Good luck actually trying to do anything with them, you will essentially be playing 5 versus 6 the whole game.
Furthermore, good luck keeping them alive - since Sunny Day and Rain Dance users are widespread in UU and far more common than in the above Tiers, all it takes is one Victrebell to use Sunny Day once after your Snover has been blown to hell by Spearow's Peck and your whole team is essentially fucked.
There may be one or two pokemon, as previously mentioned, who, especially in hail, outclass the rest of UU, but it could be easier to just put those few in BL. Also, I don't quite see pokemon which become overpowered by the existance of Hippopotas in UU.
cheers.
The reason Hippopotas and Snover would be banned to BL is quite clearly to prevent SS / Hail teams from running riot in UU like they do in superior tiers. Now, this whole runniong riot thing isn't so easy as it sounds.
For one, you have to consider both Hippopotas and Snover - these two, statswise, would be considered NU pokemon no doubt (without their ability) - Good luck actually trying to do anything with them, you will essentially be playing 5 versus 6 the whole game.
Furthermore, good luck keeping them alive - since Sunny Day and Rain Dance users are widespread in UU and far more common than in the above Tiers, all it takes is one Victrebell to use Sunny Day once after your Snover has been blown to hell by Spearow's Peck and your whole team is essentially fucked.
There may be one or two pokemon, as previously mentioned, who, especially in hail, outclass the rest of UU, but it could be easier to just put those few in BL. Also, I don't quite see pokemon which become overpowered by the existance of Hippopotas in UU.
cheers.
Whilst more common than in higher tiers, weather teams are by no means widespread ... of the two, rain dance are the more prevalent, but in my experience Sunny day teams are incredibly rare, I can count the number of times a Victreebel on one hand.
All of the hideously dull stall based walls become even more difficult to take down (Cradily, Probopass, Shuckle) and Clefable becomes even more of a b%^ch. If allowed Gligar would be also be a real pain with Sand Storm support.
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