NFE Pokemon in UU

[Deck Knight]

Yes because non stab Ice beam from base 35 Sp. A. is going to murderise everything, neutral natured Chansey needs 224 EV's in special attack to guarantee an OHKO on 0 hp/sp.d neutral Gligar, who is 4x weak. Gligars running those EV's carry swords dance, if Chansey switches in on one it is screwed.

Your "reasoning" seems to be based on alot of nothing. Chansey plays worse in UU than Blissey does in OU, period. Pretty silly to make the claims you did and try to discredit the above poster without doing the research yourself.

So what you're saying is, the fact Chansey can OHKO Gligar with Ice beam at any damn time it wants with the EVs I gave it and can also survive a Swords Dance Earthquake from Adamant Max Attack Gligar with 33-10% HP to spare means my reasoning is based on alot of nothing.

Thanks Damanzi, I'm sure glad you're around to set someone whose been playing pokemon since Chansey was invented straight.

Maybe you should try a damage calculator (you know, the research you love so much) before you spout off. Did you ever stop to consider WHY I wasn't running 252/252 HP/Def on Chansey?

First because Chansey walls special attackers with no HP EVs. Second because the Swords Dancing Ground type and the Leech Seeding Grass type are the two most popular Chansey switchins. Despite being off a craptastic 35 Base SA, the fact is the most dangerous of these switchins, Gligar, gets slaughtered by IBeam.

While I concede the point if its Adamant Gligar with a Life Orb attached as well, If its running Jolly, even Life Orb is only a OHKO half the time.

Now, as to Obi's suggestion, I believe thats a valid way to organize UU.

All non-distinct NFEs should be in the same tier as their fully evolved counterpart. We are allowed to actually use our judgment to decide where to cut things off; we do not have to accept to the slippery slope fallacy of "If we allow Scyther, we have to allow all NFEs in UU" that some people appear to suggest.

The only trouble is where we blur the line. Personally I think sunnybeaming is an impractical option for Tangrowth because its slower and functions much better as a physical tank, whereas Tangela can SunnyBeam mightily. Its faster than Vileplume, Tropius, Sunflora, and Bellossom but can still take a physical hit, and even though it's slower than Victreebel and Shiftry, it gets Sleep Powder and Stun Spore like Victree and takes hits better than Shiftry.

 

[QibingZero]

The only trouble is where we blur the line. Personally I think sunnybeaming is an impractical option for Tangrowth because its slower and functions much better as a physical tank, whereas Tangela can SunnyBeam mightily. Its faster than Vileplume, Tropius, Sunflora, and Bellossom but can still take a physical hit, and even though it's slower than Victreebel and Shiftry, it gets Sleep Powder and Stun Spore like Victree and takes hits better than Shiftry.

I'm going to have to really disagree with that. Sunnybeaming isn't impractical for Tangrowth because 'it has better things to do' persay, it's because of all the weather inducers you have to deal with in standard. Tangrowth not only is much better defensively than Tangela, it also has higher special attack and just enough speed to actually make use of Chlorophyll if it really wanted to. Let's not forget those physical attacking options (from 100 base attack) that IMO would make it much more effective at sweeping in the sun than Tangela is.

 

[Dragontamer]

Heh, one thing to note is that both Snover and Hippopatas can start up their respective weather effects. They have the same ability and significantly worser stats than their evolutions, so I'd argue that they should not be allowed in UU.

The discussion about Snover kinda got turned into a Stallrein discussion in the other thread, but I'd say pokemon like Snover who are clearly just worser versions of their evolutions should not be allowed in UU.

 

[marrilpet]

Agreed. Think about how gamebreaking unstoppable Hail/Sandstorm would be to most UU Pokemon.

 

[Steven718]

So what you're saying is, the fact Chansey can OHKO Gligar with Ice beam at any damn time it wants with the EVs I gave it and can also survive a Swords Dance Earthquake from Adamant Max Attack Gligar with 33-10% HP to spare means my reasoning is based on alot of nothing.

Thanks Damanzi, I'm sure glad you're around to set someone whose been playing pokemon since Chansey was invented straight.

Maybe you should try a damage calculator (you know, the research you love so much) before you spout off. Did you ever stop to consider WHY I wasn't running 252/252 HP/Def on Chansey?

First because Chansey walls special attackers with no HP EVs. Second because the Swords Dancing Ground type and the Leech Seeding Grass type are the two most popular Chansey switchins. Despite being off a craptastic 35 Base SA, the fact is the most dangerous of these switchins, Gligar, gets slaughtered by IBeam.

While I concede the point if its Adamant Gligar with a Life Orb attached as well, If its running Jolly, even Life Orb is only a OHKO half the time.

Now, as to Obi's suggestion, I believe thats a valid way to organize UU.



The only trouble is where we blur the line. Personally I think sunnybeaming is an impractical option for Tangrowth because its slower and functions much better as a physical tank, whereas Tangela can SunnyBeam mightily. Its faster than Vileplume, Tropius, Sunflora, and Bellossom but can still take a physical hit, and even though it's slower than Victreebel and Shiftry, it gets Sleep Powder and Stun Spore like Victree and takes hits better than Shiftry.

Actually, I didn't read correctly and notice that you gave it 252 Sp. A. EV's, I apologise. Still, like you said this setup makes it more vulnerable and the tradeoff really isn't worth it IMO.

 

[Dragontamer]

Actually, I didn't read correctly and notice that you gave it 252 Sp. A. EV's, I apologise. Still, like you said this setup makes it more vulnerable and the tradeoff really isn't worth it IMO.

Without 252 HP EVs, Chansey takes like only 10% more damage than her 252 HP Counterpart. Not that much more damage.

 

[Bologo]

Heh, one thing to note is that both Snover and Hippopatas can start up their respective weather effects. They have the same ability and significantly worser stats than their evolutions, so I'd argue that they should not be allowed in UU.

The discussion about Snover kinda got turned into a Stallrein discussion in the other thread, but I'd say pokemon like Snover who are clearly just worser versions of their evolutions should not be allowed in UU.

Heh, yeah they should definitely be banned. Just think how painfully hard it would be to kill Probopass and Shuckle or even Bastiodon in UU with a Sandstorm up with the special defense boost to rocks. Plus Aggron would be able to destroy things with its only really bad stat that isn't speed boosted up.

That and Relicanth would be really hard to kill as well with the special defense boost with the huge HP stat.

I would ban both Hippopotas and Snover in all honesty. If I was only able to pick one to ban though, I'd definitely pick Hippopotas, because Sandstorm is a lot more dangerous than Hail thanks to the special defense boost to rocks.

 

[Steven718]

Without 252 HP EVs, Chansey takes like only 10% more damage than her 252 HP Counterpart. Not that much more damage.

It's a big enough difference to decide between a 2 and 3 hko in many situations, 1 which chansey can recover off, the other it cannot.

 

[Dragontamer]

By 10% I mean if something did 30% damage to 252/252 Bold Chansey, it'd to 33% damage to 0/252 Bold Chansey.

That isn't much damage at all.

 

[Murkrow]

I'm going to have to really disagree with that. Sunnybeaming isn't impractical for Tangrowth because 'it has better things to do' persay, it's because of all the weather inducers you have to deal with in standard. Tangrowth not only is much better defensively than Tangela, it also has higher special attack and just enough speed to actually make use of Chlorophyll if it really wanted to. Let's not forget those physical attacking options (from 100 base attack) that IMO would make it much more effective at sweeping in the sun than Tangela is.

I think all these arguments that are going on about whether an NFE is distinct from its evolution are ultimately pointless.

All NFEs are distinct from their evolutions; the question is, from the perspective of those wanting only "distinct" Pokemon to be allowed (not me), "are they distinct enough?" For Deck Knight, yes Tangela is distinct and for you, no, Tangela is not. As there is no objective way of deciding it, this just becomes incredibly messy. But really, I see no reason why the argument is worth having in the first place. Tangela, if allowed, will probably see little play and be relegated to the ranks of NU. So why should it be banned from UU? It has such little significance on the metagame that there's no reason to ban it. I hardly see how inclusion of an ultimately NU Pokemon will make UU less fun, as seems to be the new hip argument in favor of blanket bans on NFEs.

As far as I'm concerned, the only NFEs that warrant banning to BL are the Rhydons, Porygon2s, Dusclopses, Kadabra (if deemed too strong), etc.

If we do have a blanket ban on "not-distinct-enough" NFEs, we'll have the awkward situation where Mareep and Flaaffy (for example) are banned in UU, only legal in OU, while Ampharos is OK for UU. And that would just be silly...

 

[Mood4food77]

you could make it so that the a pokes evo chain can be used only in battles to which it's final form partains to

for example, kadabra could be used in only OU and BL battles

but then you make exceptions to this rule, like porygon2, scyther, trapinch, pikachu, magikarp (i mean, that is if you can pull of max increases of attack and speed and BP them to a rain dancer who BPs to a focus sashed magikarp...then it can work...XD), etc

basically pokes that work completely different/are better (i've only found pika to do this...) than there final forms would be allowed if the NFE clause is in play, which would be only final forms are allowed to be used in play

 

[Kasumeat]

The reason that Chansey should not be allowed in UU is because it is literally the only good special wall with Aromatherapy, and most UU teams run both of these. Every single one of these teams would then run Chansey and save a slot. It would be an automatic inclusion on every single competitive team.

 

[Thunderpup]

The reason that Chansey should not be allowed in UU is because it is literally the only good special wall with Aromatherapy, and most UU teams run both of these. Every single one of these teams would then run Chansey and save a slot. It would be an automatic inclusion on every single competitive team.

I'm against chansey as well, but in reality, a lot of teams don't run a cleric. You don't NEED a cleric to win competitively.

 

[Kietharr]

Because, like I was saying earlier, is UU a competitive environment for us to enjoy or is it a scrap heap to toss anything that doesn't belong in OU?
It's a fundamental question for this argument.

BL and ubers are the scrap heap tiers, UU is ment to provide an alternate metagame. NU is more of a shit heap, when the premier pokemon of the tier include Farfetch'd you know you've hit rock bottom.

 

[QibingZero]

If we do have a blanket ban on "not-distinct-enough" NFEs, we'll have the awkward situation where Mareep and Flaaffy (for example) are banned in UU, only legal in OU, while Ampharos is OK for UU. And that would just be silly...

It doesn't work that way. The non-distinct NFE versions of said Pokemon would be in whatever tier their evolved form is in. This way, UU can separate itself from standard, and NU can separate itself from UU.

You can say it's vague, but I feel there is a clear line to be drawn when discussing 'distinct'. The vast majority of NFEs are not in the least bit distinct as even if they have a slightly different typing, they are completely outclassed by their evolved forms. Even a lot of the ones that have slightly better stats in certain areas still aren't bringing anything new to the game.

There are very few pokemon we're singling out here, and usually it's because they are so different that it would be a shame if they didn't see use. Trapinch, Vigoroth, Scyther, Clamperl, and Pikachu either serve completely different purposes than their evolutions, or significantly overpower them in some way. Really, how many other pokemon can we say that about?

 

[Mekkah]

First off, you'd have to figure it out the "ethical" way. Do you like the idea of NFEs in UU, provided they would not unbalance the game? Some would certainly change it, but trust me we'd never allow them if they did so drastically.

If you don't mind them at all, then you start looking at the Pokemon on individual basis. If they are too powerful, they get banned. If they are not, they are allowed.

If you only mind them in Obi's way (distinct or not), then remove those who are not distinct enough, and look at individual cases at the distinct ones.

If you hate NFEs in UU with a passion and don't want them out of principle because it would defeat the point (which I don't entirely disagree with) then that's just that.

EDIT:

Concerning "fun": yes, it is as subjective as anything, just like the power ranking of Pokemon is. The fun comment was more because I don't think anyone would prefer an UU metagame with Chansey over one without, which is the whole reason behind trying to prove Chansey is not powerful enough, unless you wish to play some kind of jurist that thinks INJUSTICE IS BEING DONE by banning Chansey from UU.

 

[Steven718]

Concerning "fun": yes, it is as subjective as anything, just like the power ranking of Pokemon is. The fun comment was more because I don't think anyone would prefer an UU metagame with Chansey over one without, which is the whole reason behind trying to prove Chansey is not powerful enough, unless you wish to play some kind of jurist that thinks INJUSTICE IS BEING DONE by banning Chansey from UU.

Yeah that's pretty much it as I have not intention or care to play Chansey or Blissey anymore regardless of tier. Really just don't see how Chansey would be any harder to dispose of in UU than Blissey is in Standards (which it is now decently easy) Mostly, just using it as an example of why NFE's should just be banned unless they are distinct cases, even if they aren't too powerful.

 

[éyaang]

Heh, yeah they should definitely be banned. Just think how painfully hard it would be to kill Probopass and Shuckle or even Bastiodon in UU with a Sandstorm up with the special defense boost to rocks. Plus Aggron would be able to destroy things with its only really bad stat that isn't speed boosted up.

That and Relicanth would be really hard to kill as well with the special defense boost with the huge HP stat.

I would ban both Hippopotas and Snover in all honesty. If I was only able to pick one to ban though, I'd definitely pick Hippopotas, because Sandstorm is a lot more dangerous than Hail thanks to the special defense boost to rocks.

I agree that Stallrein and Shuckle would be too godly with the Hail and Sandstorm boosts respectively, but that would get Walrein and Shuckle get banned to BL, nawt Hippopotas neither Snover. Period.

 

[Mekkah]

So because you want to allow Sandstream and Hail in UU, two other former perfectly viable UU Pokemon have to shove to BL? "They were there first" sounds a bit childish but it really seems like a weird claim to me.

 

[Deucalion2]

Why not just put it to vote? Because neither of the two sides are ever going to give in.

 

[Dragontamer]

So because you want to allow Sandstream and Hail in UU, two other former perfectly viable UU Pokemon have to shove to BL? "They were there first" sounds a bit childish but it really seems like a weird claim to me.

Only 2 pokemon?

Every rock pokemon in UU, from Aggron, probopass, and so forth get a 50% boost... and every ice pokemon, from Glaceon to Lapras to froslass get 100% accurate blizzard.

While Probopass or Froslass may not get the needed boost to reach BL, Lapras (who can Blizzard/Thunderbolt, dragon dance, etc. etc.) and Glaceon (specs blizzard can KO an injured blissey and who's 20% boost in evasion in the hail should not be underestimated) may get the boost they need to jump up to BL. I can imagine that Aggron or Relecanth might make it as well.

We'd be lucky if only 2 pokemon (Walrein and Shuckle) are banned to BL after adding hail/sandstorm to the mix. Every rock / ice pokemon will get a boost, not just those two.

Why not just put it to vote? Because neither of the two sides are ever going to give in.

I'd imagine that this community is small enough that concensus ought to still work. Either way, this discussion has not halted yet, so even if we were going by pure democracy... there is reason to continue this discussion.

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I think we need to look at this through the eyes of a game designer. We are, whether we like it or not, creating a game here. Specifically, the UU Game for Pokemon. We have to take into account replayability, fun, balance and so forth. More or less, we were given the OU and Uber environment from Nintendo themselves with a few "house clauses" from smogon, but UU is built entirely from us.

That said, "fun", while very subjective, is the core of the UU environment. If it weren't, then there would be no purpose for UU at all. We might as well play with OU / Ubers. And to make UU fun comes a great number of variables that can screw us over or help us. As Game Designers (or meta-game designers at the very least), we cannot expect that we'll get everything right on the first go, but we ought to at least get a decent shot at things.

Where does this apply to the NFE debate? Simple: if UU is more fun with NFEs, then lets put em in. And more or less, this is what we have been discussing already. UU would be fun if it was fresh and new, aka original. Making it "OU-lite" would at very least degrade the originality feel. Balance always makes the game more fun and that is one of the hardest things to do, but that discussion goes elsewhere.

 

[Deucalion2]

I'd imagine that this community is small enough that concensus ought to still work. Either way, this discussion has not halted yet, so even if we were going by pure democracy... there is reason to continue this discussion.

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You do know these are the forums for smogon.com, right? People never agree on anything here.

However, I personally do think NFEs should be allowed in UU. It is stupid banning 200 odd usable pokemon to a specialist metagame where they will never see the life of day, just so that UU isn't dull. It wouldn't make UU dull anyway. Almost nothing plays like its correspondant evolution.

 

[Deck Knight]

Theres always the quick and easy way of banning Snover and Hippopotas precisely because while in and of themselves they aren't broken, the fact is they unbalance UU by completely shifting around the viable strategies. Auto-Hail and Sandstorm crap all over Focus Sash and Subversaling, but Walrein and Aggron (to name just two) get huge boosts.

Snover and Hippo really would make UU OU lite, their banning keeps that from happening.

 

[Murkrow]

You can say it's vague, but I feel there is a clear line to be drawn when discussing 'distinct'. The vast majority of NFEs are not in the least bit distinct as even if they have a slightly different typing, they are completely outclassed by their evolved forms. Even a lot of the ones that have slightly better stats in certain areas still aren't bringing anything new to the game.

But as X-Act has been pointing out, there are many Pokemon that are only marginally different from their evolutions, but still possess a theoretical "advantage" in some miniscule way. For example, I personally would never consider using Surskit, but it is, strictly speaking, distinct from its evolution. You may say that Magmar, Gligar, and Electabuzz are not different from their evolutions, but there are also people who think that they ARE different and should be in UU. That leads us to a whole 'nother debate for each of these Pokemon: Electabuzz? Is it different enough? Magmar? Tangela? You disagree with Tangela, but Deck Knight was supporting its inclusion as "different." Thus this just leads to a very complicated and messy situation. As Obi (or someone) mentioned before, Vigoroth is different from its evolution but still severely outclassed by Kangaskhan, Primeape, Zangoose, and others. So even then its inclusion is meaningless. Why don't we just include Chimchar and others then? If Vigoroth is allowed, but no one cares, what is the harm in including other "no one cares" NFEs. My opinion that this is the case for most NFEs - I could care less, from a competitive point of view, that Flaaffy is permissible in the metagame.

If you don't mind them at all, then you start looking at the Pokemon on individual basis. If they are too powerful, they get banned. If they are not, they are allowed.

This is my stance on the issue.

Concerning "fun": yes, it is as subjective as anything, just like the power ranking of Pokemon is. The fun comment was more because I don't think anyone would prefer an UU metagame with Chansey over one without, which is the whole reason behind trying to prove Chansey is not powerful enough, unless you wish to play some kind of jurist that thinks INJUSTICE IS BEING DONE by banning Chansey from UU.

In some sense I equate "fun" with balance. In the sense that Chansey makes it "un-fun" it would also make it unbalanced, because teams would run Chansey as their special wall more often than not and the metagame would centralize around Chansey. Thus, Chansey would be BL by the balance argument and the "include all appropriate NFEs in UU" side would be undiminished.

I suppose you could argue that fun is distinct from balance, in the way that people argue Blissey/Specsmence/Cresselia (whatever the new thing to complain about these days) makes OU "un-fun." But in my view, a metagame will always have standards (e.g. the unfun standards of Gligar, Hypno, Solrock, etc. of ADV UU), and thus will become "un-fun" even if the offending Pokemon is removed.

I understand people's opinion that the "fun" of UU is just getting to use a different set of Pokemon. However, I feel that upon the exclusion of Chansey, Dusclops, Porygon2, Kadabra, etc. the remainder of the NFEs have no significance on UU and thus NFEs should be allowed merely to simplify the rules.

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they unbalance UU by completely shifting around the viable strategies

edit - I agree with you on the point of Snover/Hippo. I remember someone saying that even if Groudon and Kyogre existed as Pokemon with 10 in each stat, they'd still be overpowered in OU. While that may be an exaggeration, the point remains valid for the same reason that Wynaut is banned despite its pitiful defenses.

 

[Mekkah]

You do know these are the forums for smogon.com, right? People never agree on anything here.

Welcome to a forum, where you discuss things you don't agree on. Are you implying it's better elsewhere?

I :gasp: agree with Deck Knight (that makes three people I usually cannot stomach for too long but am inclined to agree with during circumstances). Weather altering is too heavy for UU and it's really just "I want weather but I can't have Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Abomasnow boohoo". Heck, the REASON why Abomasnow is BL is because weather is screwing up too many things. Abomasnow himself is rather average at best, though a rather good sweeper and counter to Waters and Electrics in all flavours, it's his trait that just royally screws up things.

In some sense I equate "fun" with balance. In the sense that Chansey makes it "un-fun" it would also make it unbalanced, because teams would run Chansey as their special wall more often than not and the metagame would centralize around Chansey. Thus, Chansey would be BL by the balance argument and the "include all appropriate NFEs in UU" side would be undiminished.

I suppose you could argue that fun is distinct from balance, in the way that people argue Blissey/Specsmence/Cresselia (whatever the new thing to complain about these days) makes OU "un-fun." But in my view, a metagame will always have standards (e.g. the unfun standards of Gligar, Hypno, Solrock, etc. of ADV UU), and thus will become "un-fun" even if the offending Pokemon is removed.

I understand people's opinion that the "fun" of UU is just getting to use a different set of Pokemon. However, I feel that upon the exclusion of Chansey, Dusclops, Porygon2, Kadabra, etc. the remainder of the NFEs have no significance on UU and thus NFEs should be allowed merely to simplify the rules.

Ah, yes, I agree (wow, I agreed twice in a post and yet I am on Smogon where no one agrees). Fun is definitely linked directly to balance. I think fun is the feeling when actually playing a battle though, whereas balance is mostly coming from theorycraft, only really noticable in battles when you allow something really powerful in UU and sweep teams with it OR if you allow something that just walls too much such as Chansey, but that is already becoming really subjective.