Against a good/smart player, you will be able to only get one kill with Wobbuffet. You do not have to run stupid gimmicks. CB Scizor, Dark type using Knock Off, etc. are not gimmicks.
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NO STATUS
- Thread starter The Immortal
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While that is true, no one is really saying Wobbuffet is going to 6-0 a team or anything, that's not what it does. What it does do is trap something your team doesn't like, either wittle it down enough for another Pokemon to finish off, or kill it. And the fact that it can do that so easily has to say something, like Talonflame gets cock-blocked by stuff like Slowbro, T-Tar, Gyarados, Raikou, etc. What exactly beats Wobbuffet except a U-Turn/Volt Switch into a Ghost/Dark type, and you have to be lucky that Wobbuffet trapped a Pokemon with one of those moves.
Sorry, but that Wobbuffet can choose what it wants dead and can 99% of the time get that done just screams broken to me.
Sorry, but that Wobbuffet can choose what it wants dead and can 99% of the time get that done just screams broken to me.
I have to say that Wobbu in this meta seems very much like Mega Gengar did back in early XY OU, where you simply choose what you want gone and then let the rest of your team win due to something's main check being gone. Strong dark-types or volt-turn users and Scizor are very good against it, sure, but with volt-turn support of its own there's no way to stop it from coming in on something else and removing that mon.
The support ability of this mon just seems broken to me in a very similar manner to Mega Gengar. tl;dr ban please.
The support ability of this mon just seems broken to me in a very similar manner to Mega Gengar. tl;dr ban please.
I'd be down to see Wobb get banned. Stag has never really been a competitive ability, and in this meta you can almost guarantee at least 1 kill (i.e. eliminate a check to something that beats you or something). However, I also think we should at least wait for the meta to develop a bit before pointing the gun at Wobb.
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 348-410 (65.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.
Gonna share a Pokemon that is actually pretty good in this meta.
Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 124 SpA / 132 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice
Mega Ampharos is a neat Pokemon, with a typing that no one else has in OU. This said typing lets it take on regen cores like Slowbro+Tornadus and thanks to its bulk it can take on Charizard-Y and Talonflame which are huge threats in this metagame. Thanks to its incredible 165 SpA, it can afford to move EVs into its defenses, while retaining plenty of power. These said EVs and a Calm Nature allows it to be only 3HKO'd by Timid Mega Zard Y's Dragon Pulse, while you almost always OHKO back with Thunderbolt, making you a hard check. Banded Talonflame also can't break through you, having a low chance to 3HKO with a banded Brave Bird while you cleanly OHKO back(watch out for U-Turn). Other things you can beat are, but not limited to Tornadus-T, Slowbro, Slowking, Alomomola, Thundurus, Gengar, Bisharp, LO Keldeo(most of the time), Raikou, Mega Manectric, and more. Give it a shot, hopefully you'll be surprised by the results.
Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 124 SpA / 132 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice
Mega Ampharos is a neat Pokemon, with a typing that no one else has in OU. This said typing lets it take on regen cores like Slowbro+Tornadus and thanks to its bulk it can take on Charizard-Y and Talonflame which are huge threats in this metagame. Thanks to its incredible 165 SpA, it can afford to move EVs into its defenses, while retaining plenty of power. These said EVs and a Calm Nature allows it to be only 3HKO'd by Timid Mega Zard Y's Dragon Pulse, while you almost always OHKO back with Thunderbolt, making you a hard check. Banded Talonflame also can't break through you, having a low chance to 3HKO with a banded Brave Bird while you cleanly OHKO back(watch out for U-Turn). Other things you can beat are, but not limited to Tornadus-T, Slowbro, Slowking, Alomomola, Thundurus, Gengar, Bisharp, LO Keldeo(most of the time), Raikou, Mega Manectric, and more. Give it a shot, hopefully you'll be surprised by the results.
Since when is "almost guarantee at least one kill" grounds for banning something? Lol
When that thing that can guarantee at least one kill can more or less choose what it kills thanks to stag (aka removing key checks to an important sweeper, as I mentioned in the post you quoted), which is the case of Wobb thanks to stag and the lack of status moves.
Plus, I just said I'd be down to see it getting banned, not that it should be banned (hence the last sentence).
Gastrodon, despite losing its reliable recovery, looks weirdly good in this metagame. Storm Drain is invaluable for teams looking to avoid Scald burns that are gonna get thrown around everywhere, and it gets Scald itself for that incredibly competitive burn chance, and the only reliable way of spreading status in this meta. Counter and Mirror Coat come off of a very good base-111 HP. It has a number of options for slot #4, most notably Infestation, letting it act as a pseudo-Wobbuffet.
Entei's Sacred Fire spreads the same status more reliably (And it's not like Entei has ever been big on running Status moves), Nuzzle always Paralyzes while Discharge has Scald's 30% chance, most of the moves that have a shot at Poisoning a target have a 30% chance (And Sludge Wave is the only particularly viable exception) while Poison Fang can be used to inflict Toxic with a 30% chance... Sleep is nearly impossible to inflict, because Relic Song is the only non-Status way of inducing it, and Freeze is, as always, unreliable, but Toxic is honestly the main major status that's a lot harder to inflict, which isn't even that big a deal because what setup sweepers and stallmons? (OK, Regenerator cores, so Poison Fang might see use anyway...) Oh, and there's Poison Touch Pokemon like Toxicroak and Muk to throw in another 30% chance of Poisoning on everything. (Well, all your contact moves, anyway)
I'd be a lot more interested in Jellicent than in Gastrodon. Being able to heal by switching in on Scald seems a lot more useful in a meta where healing is hard to come by, especially since it's not like Gastrodon is going to switch in, get a boost, and start KOing things before they move because it's +1. Heliolisk and Toxicroak also seem like they have a lot of potential, with Dry Skin, even with being comparatively fragile. With support from Politoed, Toxicroak could be surprisingly bulky, especially with its access to Fake Out to buy Rain turns, while Heliolisk could be used to get Politoed back in to reset Rain with no wasted turns via Volt Switch.
In general I'm kind of intrigued by weather teams.
You're right about spreading status; I was tired when I made that post. I should say that Scald is probably the most spammable way of spreading status, for reasons I don't need to rehash, and I think more teams will be resorting to it for lack of standard status moves, and a need for things without Regenerator to cut down on their damage intake if at all possible, if they would normally run recovery.
Jellicent probably goes over Gastrodon on plenty of teams, but Gastrodon remains the more reliable Rain answer and does a much better job of answering Entei by virtue of a Stone Edge resistance. I also really cannot overstate its access to Counter and Mirror Coat, either. Ghost typing also seems like a light liability in a meta where Sucker Punch is fairly reliable.
Weather looks fun. It's already been noted how hard it is to avoid Char Y's 2HKO, but Fire-types in the sun are really good for inflicting damage that's hard to heal off and not being bothered terribly by Scald. Can't say how viable Chlorophyll users are in lieu of things like Growth, but I get the sense that bulk will be the name of the game, so you can probably just rely on naturally not-slow Fire-types.
Rain looks good too; STAB on boosted moves means it doesnt hate the laxk of status moves quite so much. I recently made a team that splashes Politoed almost exclusively to have a reliable Charizard-Y switch-in that disrupts the not-a-dragon's teammates.
Tyranitar has a plethora of offensive and defensive options to make it a valuable sand setter (Chople Berry + Counter looks hilarious, but I needed something Keldeo-proof on my teams), but Excadrill really hates losing Swords Dance and (the benefits of) Rapid Spin. Tankchomp sets can get off that rare residual damage. I don't know enough about sand teams to say much more.
Outside of prediction Wobbuffet has one guranteed kill, possibly two. I don't see how that's healthy. Shedinja might also be something else to look into
Shedinja seems mildly useless in this meta, between lacking the ability to set up, BP, or spread status... Sucker Punch would be nice if it was off anything but an off-STAB base-90 Attack with no boosting item. My most recent team has three answers to it without even trying.
I won't specify how (use your imagination), but it is possible to build around Wobbuffet... I did have to give up two moveslots to have 5/6 Pokemon be able to manage it, but counterplay doesn't seem like it will be so terribly limiting. Still wouldn't mind seeing it banned though, but we'll see.
Doesn't really matter, it only move could be tackle and it still beats you if you lack a super effective move, it centralised the metagame immensely, which isn't healthy. you should be generally free to build however you want, atleast within legitimate strategies Shedinja and Wobbuffets presence hinders this
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Anyways, I'm liking Entei and Dragonite in this meta because they both have Extreme Speed. Entei can spread burns via Sacred Fire, and Dragonite is guaranteed one hit at half power because of no hazards and status. I'm not completely interested in this meta, but these two mons both seem interesting.
Tailwind is a status move, so it's banned. TI doesn't need to say everything. If the move isn't an attacking move, its banned.
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Aerial Ace is a physical attacking move, as indicated by the red box with a star in the middle.
Aeroblast is a special attacking move, as indicated by the dark box with three circles.
Agility is a status move, as indicated by the grey box with a yin-yang symbol.
Attachments
The problem with Shedinja is that its weaknesses are so common there's almost no way a team doesn't have a way to hit it for SE damage (this is probably true even for Stall teams now because of Knock Off having so much utility). This isn't even mentioning that it just auto-loses to any team that has a TTar, who I think is a very solid team option. I don't think Shedinja is terrible, and think that it does have some merit to it, but its definitely not "centralizing".
The problem is how centralising it is, making pokemon who can't hit it, like Kindra, useless.
I don't understand this line of thinking...at all. Aside from losing entry hazards and Wisp/Toxic (and Leech Seed I guess?), there is no difference between the threat level to Shedinja in OU and No Status. Yeah, if you have a team with absolutely no Fire moves, Dark moves, Flying moves, Ghost moves, Rock moves, Mold Breaker users, Rocky Helmet users, Rough Skin users, Iron Barbs users, Sand Stream users, Snow Warning users and probably some other things I'm forgetting, you're going to lose to Shedinja. But also, if your team really has none of those things, you probably have a pretty shitty team. I guarantee that there will be at least one Sucker Punch user on every team in this format, and Fire/Flying/Dark/Rock are really common (good) attacking types.
Pokemon that can't hit Shedinja are useless? What? You know what's walled by Shedinja? Kyogre. That's why Shedinja has had a niche in past Ubers gens, as it could switch into pretty much any Kyogre set. This was mostly in Gen 3 if I recall, where Stealth Rock wasn't even a thing. Who was clamoring to suspect test Shedinja? Not a soul. That's why we have a full team, to deal with threats one mon can't handle alone.
Shedinja auto-wins if you don't have one of the many, many things that beat it. That's not centralizing, that's just a punishment for lazy teambuilding. Aegislash was centralizing: it dropped great Pokemon like Starmie an entire tier and made good mons like Terrakion run shitty coverage like Earthquake. I think you're confusing "usable" with "broken" here. Shedinja has been so trash for so long that people get jumpy when it might actually do something in a game. I don't see it ever getting suspected, much less banned. But prove me wrong -- top the ladder by abusing this thing. Watch as dozens of player forfeit when they realize they have nothing to hit it. Or more likely, they'll realize they have like 5 different Knock Off users because this is still basically ORAS OU.
Shedinja seems mostly useful as a gimmicky closer or something like that. Chances are not EVERY Pokemon will have Fire/Flying/Dark/Rock moves (unless you have an extra spot where you can just put a weak one just for that point). So, once you eliminate all the opposing Pokemon that you would think have those moves, you switch in Shedinja and try to go for an endgame sweep.
Actually speaking of Terrakion, probably a lot more Pokemon will be running random coverage. Terrakion wasn't necessarily crap with Earthquake because most of the time it only needed three moves (Swords Dance, Stone Edge, and Close Combat). Now it might actually run Earthquake, X-Scissor, Iron Head, or some other crap it wouldn't normally run. Many Pokemon would be like that. In fact, that might be another reason why Shedinja won't be useful - many Pokemon just don't have really great coverage options (or won't NEED too many coverage options) so you might run something to kill Shedinja.
For instance, Scizor can run U-Turn, Bullet Punch, Superpower/Night Slash, and now Aerial Ace. Superpower gives you more power but Night Slash gives you more coverage.
In this metagame trying to shove as much coverage on a single Pokemon is probably the most important thing. So, most Pokemon will probably have something to take care of Shedinja. ESPECIALLY now since you four moves and many Pokemon only used to run 2 or 3 attacking moves.
Actually speaking of Terrakion, probably a lot more Pokemon will be running random coverage. Terrakion wasn't necessarily crap with Earthquake because most of the time it only needed three moves (Swords Dance, Stone Edge, and Close Combat). Now it might actually run Earthquake, X-Scissor, Iron Head, or some other crap it wouldn't normally run. Many Pokemon would be like that. In fact, that might be another reason why Shedinja won't be useful - many Pokemon just don't have really great coverage options (or won't NEED too many coverage options) so you might run something to kill Shedinja.
For instance, Scizor can run U-Turn, Bullet Punch, Superpower/Night Slash, and now Aerial Ace. Superpower gives you more power but Night Slash gives you more coverage.
In this metagame trying to shove as much coverage on a single Pokemon is probably the most important thing. So, most Pokemon will probably have something to take care of Shedinja. ESPECIALLY now since you four moves and many Pokemon only used to run 2 or 3 attacking moves.
Or Scizor can run Knock Off which is superior to Night Slash in pretty much every way
Which also kills Shedinja
Which also kills Shedinja
Totally forgot that it learned Knock Off and that Aerial Ace is unnecessary with Dark coverage. This is what happens when you post long winding replies right when you wake up. I should stop that.
I guess you would just use standard Choice Band Scizor (though now you can consider using Life Orb or Scizorite for it instead of Choice Band).
Point's still valid that any Pokemon can spare that kind of coverage now.