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Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

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I can't really add anything to the convo, as plenty has been said already. I suppose I'm one of the few people that wants this thing in Ubers.

I've been laddering extensively and I've found SubSeed to be very difficult to kill off. I personally find it inbalanced. Sure it can be countered, but only a few Pokemon can safely counter it. And while I do not think it should be banned due to "luck" alone, I find that the hax factor can really screw over even Blissey. I know it is a somewhat flawed view, but the risks of hax are too high for my tastes.

Just my opinion. I finally got the ranking of 1655, but I'll be incapable of playing for a few days because I'm leaving the county Wednesday thru part of Friday due to Thanksgiving. I hope I'll be able to bring my ranking back up, as I really want to vote on this =/


Also, can somebody enlighten me on how we will even have 20 people voting for this, let alone more than 40, if you need a minimun of 1655 points? At the moment we have 13 people with that high of a ranking...
 
Getting up to 1655 rating doesn't prove much except that you play a lot. Granted it means you're pretty good, but I think 1655 is a little over excessive.
 
the alternatives are shittier as i have made clear here and in policy review
 
Wakalord said:
Also, can somebody enlighten me on how we will even have 20 people voting for this, let alone more than 40, if you need a minimun of 1655 points? At the moment we have 13 people with that high of a ranking...
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This applies to the rating range, not the conservative rating estimate. I am pretty sure that most if not all of the people on the leaderboard more than fit this criteria.
 
If you have any real skill the 1655 rating is easily achieved. Remember, this is not conservative, it's the average of your range. IE, my conservative rating estimate is currently 1661, but my rating (1755-1818)/2 = 1786.5

So I have a rating of 1786.5, and a deviation of 31.5

Achieving 1655 and deviation 65 deviation is fairly minimal imo.

I recently started a test account for a new team and had the requirements for voting within an hour of play. An hour. If you actually have the skill that deserves the vote, making the rating isn't hard.
 
I'll say it:

Skymin is NOT overrated but it is still a long mile away from becoming an Uber.
It works like an Azelf: Threaten, predict and pray(Note that Skymin gets no
good stat-up moves). It works the best as a finisher, not a sweeper.

That Cresselia set is awesome... But I doubt people would use it unless Garchomp
goes to Suspect.
 
Skymin is NOT overrated but it is still a long mile away from becoming an Uber.
It works like an Azelf: Threaten, predict and pray(Note that Skymin gets no good stat-up moves). It works the best as a finisher, not a sweeper.
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what are you talking about lol, growth is a fantastic stat up move for skymin and it also gets swords dance if you want to go physical. growth skymin is one of the most dangerous skymin sets to play right now because no one is prepared for it which almost goes double for sd skymin because seed bomb / quick attack / zen headbutt / swords dance is actually a very potent threat.
 
SD Skymin has horrible attacking types to work with, the only reason special Skymin is such a threat is because of its access to a fire/ground move.
 
Ok I'll make this short and simple but effective. To make things simple, the 1 or 2 pokemon that can be used to even stand a chance against skymin will totally shift the OU metagame, and this is NOT in a good way. This will take the actual skill out of games because teams will be heavily guarded to a point that it isn't possible to cover all angles without being highly vulnerable to a common OU pokemon. Skymin really supports this theory to it's fullest and this is why it should be banned.

If you play normal, sacrifices are necessary to even play around it, and even then, if the skymin player protects their skymin, there is almost 0 hope of winning that match. Skymin makes the game of pokemon a lot less of a skill and mind reading game, and it will be moreso on who can abuse the most easy tactics in the game.

So look into my argument and think thoroughly before the final outcome. I can guarentee you that all the people voting for skymin in OU are highly lacking in prediction or team building skills, and have no real reasons to support skymin's stay at OU. Thank you all.

ninja edit: lol at some of these pathetic posts. someone said donphan can revenge kill it, who the hell would let you do that? if anything you'll get air slashed, earth powered, or seed flared then switched out on and you'll be ice sharding a skarmory, hippowdon, rotom, whatever.

so, does anyone have a valid argument for skymin to be in OU? i've yet to see one...
 
KingFresh said:
If you play normal, sacrifices are necessary to even play around it, and even then, if the skymin player protects their skymin, there is almost 0 hope of winning that match. Skymin makes the game of pokemon a lot less of a skill and mind reading game, and it will be moreso on who can abuse the most easy tactics in the game.
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- What do you define as "playing normal"?

- If the the Skymin user is able to successfully protect their Skymin, then maybe the opponent deserves to lose?

- What do you define as "the most easy tactics in the game"?

So look into my argument and think thoroughly before the final outcome. I can guarentee you that all the people voting for skymin in OU are highly lacking in prediction or team building skills, and have no real reasons to support skymin's stay at OU. Thank you all.
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Umm, you do realize that this part makes absolutely no sense, right? If people that are voting OU are even eligible to vote, they obviously have very good teambuilding/prediction skills. Who are you to tell them that they have no real reasons to vote Skymin as OU? It sounds to me like you're just trying to push your position in people's face by basically telling them that they're stupid if they vote for Skymin as OU.

ninja edit: lol at some of these pathetic posts. someone said donphan can revenge kill it, who the hell would let you do that? if anything you'll get air slashed, earth powered, or seed flared then switched out on and you'll be ice sharding a skarmory, hippowdon, rotom, whatever.

so, does anyone have a valid argument for skymin to be in OU? i've yet to see one...
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Ok, and it's also very hard for Skymin to switch in again after its been switched out. You seem to imply that you're supposed to protect Skymin for the whole game and bring it out in the end. Why would you switch it out then?

Also, is it even possible to give you a valid argument for Skymin as OU? From what I see, it's not like your view has any chance of changing. What makes you think you can go ahead and call people's posts pathetic anyway? Just because they don't agree with your point of view, it doesn't give you a right to be insulting to others.
 
Ok, maybe I came off a little too strong in my words.

Let me rephrase.

Skymin does what Garchomp, Wobbuffett, and Deoxys did. They over-centralize the game, and it completely ruins the metagame. I used to be a BL player purely, but I know that is out the window with Scizor and others around, but that's out of topic.

My point is, what wall won't get sub seeded by skymin? What tank won't get raped by Seedflare/Earth power+Air slashes?

In addition to this, when the opponent sees that you are using Scizor to switch in, they will start air slashing to get damage off. Sure Scizor can roost it off, but it gives the opponent a free turn while roosting. This means the Scizor player's wall is getting hit more times than it should.

Even if you do happen to build a team that completely nullifies skymin (SOMEHOW LOL)...you'll be wayyyyyy to vulnerable to the other members of the team.

This is why skymin, without question is overpowering the OU metagame. I do not use skymin for honor purposes, and I do not "play to win" at those measures. This is why I am positive that skymin's tier is in the uber metagame.
 
I believed that Skymin wasn't uber, until a very unfortunate event occured:

Code: 
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Bronzong used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 8% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 8% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 8% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 7% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 8% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 7% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 7% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
Bronzong's light screen wore off!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 15% of its health.
Bronzong flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 16% of its health.
Sephiran's Bronzong fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Shaymin-s is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Shaymin-s lost 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---

Vote Uber for great justice!
 
^That's just being VERY unlucky. You must of just been having a bad day.

Even if you do happen to build a team that completely nullifies skymin (SOMEHOW LOL)...you'll be wayyyyyy to vulnerable to the other members of the team.
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??

I have a team that doesn't have a problem with the SubSeed and the SubLO Attacker and it preforms great in battle with other threats.
 
You got 8 flinches. That's... 57%^8 = 1.114% chance.

Are you really telling me we should ban Skymin just because of a low chance like that? You know, Critical Hits have a 6.25% chance of happening. Let's ban everything that can use a move with Critical Hit ratio!!!!
 
Who said that it's the only reason I think he should be banned?

He's fast, he flinches all the time, I'm sure other people get frustrated by it. We want a metagame with skill, not luck, don't we? Skymin is just that. There isn't that much skill when it comes to Skymin.

We want to minimize this luck factor in OU as much as possible. By banning Skymin, we can accomplish that, and have a more fun metagame, one with luck as degraded as possible. With the advent of Skymin a few months ago, this was in a way, ruined.

Then again, I may be biased, simply because I hate luck.
 
Well, you did say that

I believed that Skymin wasn't uber, until a very unfortunate event occured
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which made me think this hax was the only (or at least the main) reason you want see it banned.

And please elighten me about the difference between Skymin spamming Air Slashes and Togekiss with a Scarf.
 
which made me think this hax was the only (or at least the main) reason you want see it banned.

And please elighten me about the difference between Skymin spamming Air Slashes and Togekiss with a Scarf.
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I always hated the luck factor of Skymin. To be fair, you can't read my mind, so you can't decide what I originally thought of Skymin. Skymin hadn't been much of a problem to be at first simply because I hadn't seen it often. However, after that unfortunate event occured, I realised that if it was allowed to stay OU, then it would damage the metagame even further with it's reliance on luck. The unfortunate event lead me to think of other possibilities - one in which Skymin went up to the top 5 and started getting people to the top of the ladder simply because of it's luck factor. I assure you, I never exactly stated that it was the only reason it made me think that it was uber.

The difference between a Skymin spamming Air Slashes and Togekiss with a Scarf is that Skymin doesn't need a Scarf to be fast. Furthermore, Togekiss isn't fast flinching anything without a Scarf. Skymin is much more threatening simply because it can Substitute, Leech Seed, Earth Power and Seed Flare without the limitations of Choice items, simply because of it's excellent speed.

Let us end this.
 
A little pre-emptive, but I'm going to let people know that my vote will be going to ubers, because I feel like anything as luck-based as Shaymin-S is has no place staying in OU.
 
imperfectluck said:
A little pre-emptive, but I'm going to let people know that my vote will be going to ubers, because I feel like anything as luck-based as Shaymin-S is has no place staying in OU.
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Isn't this precisely the sort of biased argument that Jumpman16 and Tangerine/Serene Grace have been complaining about this whole time? A pokemon gets banned if it is too good in some way for OU, or if it completely breaks the metagame (like Wobbuffet, and IPL himself proved). Saying "no OU pokemon should be based on luck" does not reflect on the power of Skymin relative to OU. It is a statement philosophically opposed to the tier system. By the same logic, Dunsparce could be BL, or even Uber, since the criteria is not the relative power/utility of the pokemon in question.

Edit: By the way, when will we know how many people and who are eligible to vote on Skymin?
 
Saying "no OU pokemon should be based on luck" does not reflect on the power of Skymin relative to OU.
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Aren't luck and power directly proportional? As luck increases, I am confident that power follows suit.

By the same logic, Dunsparce could be BL, or even Uber, since the criteria is not the relative power/utility of the pokemon in question.
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You know why this sentence is incorrect. Shaymin-S is far more game breaking than Dunsparce. One reason is the gigantic difference in speed.
 
My point is obviously not that Dunsparce is actually broken or game breaking. My point is that I object to banning pokemon on the basis on a priori arguments. I believe they should only be banned on the basis of
a posteriori arguments. "This pokemon is luck-based" is not an equivalent stament to "this pokemon is overpowered". This overlooks the fact that there are many luck-based pokemon that are obviously not overpowered, memorably Togekiss and Iron Head/Zen Headbutt Jirachi (fellow Serene Grace abusers). And let's not even get started about Absol in UU, which abuses hax far worse than any of these. It is too large a logical leap for me to say that a pokemon that encourages reliance on luck is automatically overpowered.

Edit: Hmm, it seemed like for weeks, most people posting here--and especially the highly ranked and respected players--favored OU over Ubers for Skymin, with darknessmalice as the notable, and at times only, exception. Now it seems that lots of the Ubers supporters are coming out and making themselves heard, closer to the time of the vote. Does anyone really know what to expect from this vote? How many people are actually eligible?
 
The reason why Shaymin-S is so good and game breaking is because it has the perfect stats and moves to abuse it's luck, unlike that of Togekiss and Jirachi. That's why Togekiss and Jirachi are not suspects. Seed Flare and Air Slash are excellent Serene Grace abuse moves, and coupled with Shaymin-S's incredible speed, he is a far better abuser of luck.

Shaymin-S's potential comes mainly from luck and it greatly relies on it, thereby reducing the metagame to one which relies on more luck and less skill (if people realise it's potential more then perhaps it will come to be used more, making it look more broken). As I mentioned before, Togekiss and Jirachi simply don't have the luck abusing potential of Shaymin-S.

A partial reason for why Garchomp got banned was because of Sand Veil. It also had elements of luck in it and the game could have been ruined if a single attack missed.
 
imperfectluck said:
A little pre-emptive, but I'm going to let people know that my vote will be going to ubers, because I feel like anything as luck-based as Shaymin-S is has no place staying in OU.
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One of the main reasons I'm voting Uber as well.

No, we shouldn't ban a Pokemom based on luck alone, but not only is this "luck" often activated, with above 50 percent ratios, it also has a great Special Attack and Speed stat. Its HP stat also lets it take a neutral hit or two, even with its craptastic HP.

And I've still found the Subseed set to be hell to kill off.
 
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