Hello everyone! As promised, the BDSP OU tiering council will be suspect testing Manaphy.
Manaphy has been possibly the single most notorious Pokemon in the tier among the wider community since the very start. It's not hard to see why- with its great coverage, solid stats, potent pure Water typing, and access to Tail Glow, it was set to be a threat from the get-go. Its bulk and defensive typing stands out amongst wallbreakers of its caliber, allowing it to survive monstrous hits like Specs Latios's Draco Meteor when given HP investment- this bulk often gives it the opening it needs to set up once, after which it can OHKO the vast majority of the tier. As such, it is quite difficult to prevent Manaphy from getting at least a single KO when it hits the field, which many see as fundamentally unhealthy.
Manaphy has a decent amount of flexibility to its staple set, which consists of Tail Glow, Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball. It can be ran with HP or Speed investment, with both options having distinct upsides and being well-suited to different Offense styles, like Sticky Web and Screens, respectively. Its item slot is flexible too- while Leftovers is the most common choice, the likes of Wacan Berry, Salac Berry, Quick Claw, and several other niche items have been used to decent success, as Manaphy is very unreliant on its item to do its job. Even other moves, such as Rain Dance to boost Surf and activate Hydration, Skill Swap to bypass Unaware, and Substitute to more easily enable Salac Berry and ease prediction, have been used effectively.
However, it is important to note that Manaphy almost never sweeps well-built teams. Versus more offensive teams, its mediocre base 100 Speed and reliance on setting up due to its poor immediate power means that it typically gets chipped while setting up, enabling it to be picked off by foes like Latios, Gengar, Garchomp, Alakazam, Starmie, and more, such as the decently viable Raikou. The former two often running Choice Specs and Thunderbolt makes them especially effective revenge killers of Manaphy from very high health, and Latios is even immune to the Sticky Web Manaphy is sometimes supported by. Manaphy's requirement to set up in order to get anything done means that it's easy for offensive teams to pressure it on the setup turn, making it difficult for Manaphy to stay healthy enough to set up more than once.
Versus stall, standard Manaphy is quite easily shut down by Unaware Clefable, ironically making Stall the safest playstyle versus a notorious wallbreaker. While Skill Swap or Rain Dance Manaphy can cause issues for certain stall teams, dropping one of Manaphy's coverage moves can severely impact its threat level in other matchups, and these moves still don't guarantee victory- Skill Swap Manaphy will fall flat if the stall player can switch Clefable out and then bring it back in, especially if they have a Mantine or healthy Blissey to pivot through, Rain Dance Manaphy can have issues with Wish + Protect Clefable stalling it a fair bit, and both are totally invalidated by Shedinja stall without extremely well played hazard support. Of course, while Unaware Clefable is great on stall regardless, it could be argued that Manaphy all but forcing it to be ran on stall is unhealthy. Additionally, more balanced, and therefore slow, teams struggle versus Manaphy if their speed control isn't very strong or is handled prior to Manaphy entering battle. These teams aren't considered very viable in the current meta in general though, with them typically facing vulnerabilities to several other fast attackers like Latios, Gengar, and Alakazam; however, Manaphy is probably still the biggest culprit in their low viability.
It should also be noted that Manaphy faces competition in its roles. As a Water-type breaker, it competes with Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Feraligatr, which respectively offer similar setup potential and a Fairy typing, nuclear power, and amazing sweeping potential with Dragon Dance. All three notably boast a better matchup versus stall as their raw power lets them bypass Clefable, and their priority or Speed boosting makes them similarly potent, if not better, versus offensive teams. Azumarill and Feraligatr even fit on similar styles: the former enjoys both Screens and Webs, and the latter is a Screens staple. As a fast special setup sweeper, Manaphy faces competition from the likes of Gengar, Alakazam, and Calm Mind Latios/Latias. None of these match the combination of bulk and coverage Manaphy possesses, though, which leaves Manaphy distinctly unique.
In summary: Manaphy is a notably bulky setup attacker that regularly claims at least one KO per battle, although it is often quite simple to limit it to that single KO with already great Pokemon like Latios, Garchomp, and Gengar revenge killing it. Teams with weaker speed control, such as ones that rely on priority or Choice Scarf users, can struggle more with handling Manaphy unless they opt to run Unaware Clefable or Mantine. While Manaphy is not the council's biggest concern currently, we can respect people considering it an unhealthy presence and would like to respect our promise by holding a suspect test.
Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
Manaphy has been possibly the single most notorious Pokemon in the tier among the wider community since the very start. It's not hard to see why- with its great coverage, solid stats, potent pure Water typing, and access to Tail Glow, it was set to be a threat from the get-go. Its bulk and defensive typing stands out amongst wallbreakers of its caliber, allowing it to survive monstrous hits like Specs Latios's Draco Meteor when given HP investment- this bulk often gives it the opening it needs to set up once, after which it can OHKO the vast majority of the tier. As such, it is quite difficult to prevent Manaphy from getting at least a single KO when it hits the field, which many see as fundamentally unhealthy.
Manaphy has a decent amount of flexibility to its staple set, which consists of Tail Glow, Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball. It can be ran with HP or Speed investment, with both options having distinct upsides and being well-suited to different Offense styles, like Sticky Web and Screens, respectively. Its item slot is flexible too- while Leftovers is the most common choice, the likes of Wacan Berry, Salac Berry, Quick Claw, and several other niche items have been used to decent success, as Manaphy is very unreliant on its item to do its job. Even other moves, such as Rain Dance to boost Surf and activate Hydration, Skill Swap to bypass Unaware, and Substitute to more easily enable Salac Berry and ease prediction, have been used effectively.
However, it is important to note that Manaphy almost never sweeps well-built teams. Versus more offensive teams, its mediocre base 100 Speed and reliance on setting up due to its poor immediate power means that it typically gets chipped while setting up, enabling it to be picked off by foes like Latios, Gengar, Garchomp, Alakazam, Starmie, and more, such as the decently viable Raikou. The former two often running Choice Specs and Thunderbolt makes them especially effective revenge killers of Manaphy from very high health, and Latios is even immune to the Sticky Web Manaphy is sometimes supported by. Manaphy's requirement to set up in order to get anything done means that it's easy for offensive teams to pressure it on the setup turn, making it difficult for Manaphy to stay healthy enough to set up more than once.
Versus stall, standard Manaphy is quite easily shut down by Unaware Clefable, ironically making Stall the safest playstyle versus a notorious wallbreaker. While Skill Swap or Rain Dance Manaphy can cause issues for certain stall teams, dropping one of Manaphy's coverage moves can severely impact its threat level in other matchups, and these moves still don't guarantee victory- Skill Swap Manaphy will fall flat if the stall player can switch Clefable out and then bring it back in, especially if they have a Mantine or healthy Blissey to pivot through, Rain Dance Manaphy can have issues with Wish + Protect Clefable stalling it a fair bit, and both are totally invalidated by Shedinja stall without extremely well played hazard support. Of course, while Unaware Clefable is great on stall regardless, it could be argued that Manaphy all but forcing it to be ran on stall is unhealthy. Additionally, more balanced, and therefore slow, teams struggle versus Manaphy if their speed control isn't very strong or is handled prior to Manaphy entering battle. These teams aren't considered very viable in the current meta in general though, with them typically facing vulnerabilities to several other fast attackers like Latios, Gengar, and Alakazam; however, Manaphy is probably still the biggest culprit in their low viability.
It should also be noted that Manaphy faces competition in its roles. As a Water-type breaker, it competes with Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Feraligatr, which respectively offer similar setup potential and a Fairy typing, nuclear power, and amazing sweeping potential with Dragon Dance. All three notably boast a better matchup versus stall as their raw power lets them bypass Clefable, and their priority or Speed boosting makes them similarly potent, if not better, versus offensive teams. Azumarill and Feraligatr even fit on similar styles: the former enjoys both Screens and Webs, and the latter is a Screens staple. As a fast special setup sweeper, Manaphy faces competition from the likes of Gengar, Alakazam, and Calm Mind Latios/Latias. None of these match the combination of bulk and coverage Manaphy possesses, though, which leaves Manaphy distinctly unique.
In summary: Manaphy is a notably bulky setup attacker that regularly claims at least one KO per battle, although it is often quite simple to limit it to that single KO with already great Pokemon like Latios, Garchomp, and Gengar revenge killing it. Teams with weaker speed control, such as ones that rely on priority or Choice Scarf users, can struggle more with handling Manaphy unless they opt to run Unaware Clefable or Mantine. While Manaphy is not the council's biggest concern currently, we can respect people considering it an unhealthy presence and would like to respect our promise by holding a suspect test.
- ***THIS IS NEW TO GEN 8 SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
| GXE | Minimum games |
| 80 | 50 |
| 80.2 | 49 |
| 80.4 | 48 |
| 80.6 | 47 |
| 80.8 | 46 |
| 81 | 45 |
| 81.2 | 44 |
| 81.4 | 43 |
| 81.6 | 42 |
| 81.8 | 41 |
| 82 | 40 |
| 82.2 | 39 |
| 82.4 | 38 |
| 82.6 | 37 |
| 82.8 | 36 |
| 83 | 35 |
| 83.2 | 34 |
| 83.4 | 33 |
| 83.6 | 32 |
| 83.8 | 31 |
| 84 | 30 |
- You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be BD2M. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account BD2M Eve.
- Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
- We will be using the regular BDSP OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
- The aspect being tested, Manaphy, will be allowed on the ladder.
- Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
- Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
- Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or BDSP Metagames moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
- The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until January 24th at 11:59 pm (GMT+0), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
- No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
- No discussion on other potential suspects;
- No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Manaphy vs other potential suspects;
- You are required to make respectful posts;
- You are required to read this thread before posting.
- Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
- Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
- Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
- You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
- Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
- Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
- This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message a BDSP OU Council Member or BDSP Metagames forum moderator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
- Extra Manaphy-specific note: DON'T use "Tail Glow is a better Nasty Plot" or similar statements as a pro-ban argument; this logic is frighteningly common for how little it actually proves. Cotton Guard is a better Iron Defense, but that doesn't make Dubwool a better Body Press user than Corviknight in SwSh OU.
Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
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is by far one of the best checks to manaphy with specs draco ohkoing all non bulky variants. It is also due to the fact lati stayed which caused balance to be less and less seen on ladder and the kick off tour. That is where I believe is the main benefit of using manaphy. Destroying balance and BO builds where you can easily set up and put a dent in the opposing team with only 1/2 mons that can even consider revenge killing.
and 
), not to mention the ever-present 
+ 
(which also conveniently check every other special attacker mentioned above), to 
... all of this basically means Manaphy is dealt with in this tier, right?
: won't be seen (×)
: Somehow relevant still but loses one of its biggest niche (×)
: Still going to be relevant (√)
: Still going to be relevant (√)
bro" applies to Chomp), but their success at a higher level means they must be pretty good and fundamentally there is counterplay to every pokemon, even Mega Ray and Zacian C. 
