Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghost Town

[Eve]

Thanks for the song again Lily
​

Hey again! We're not wasting any time with this one- let's suspect test Gengar.

A lot has gone into making Gengar more powerful than ever before in BDSP. Ghost-type Pokemon have only gotten better and better ever since XY with the Steel nerf, and the removal of Pursuit in this generation goes a long way in not making them often feel like single-use threats in battle. Finally, Gengar even received Nasty Plot, helping it bypass its issue with directly breaking bulky Pokemon with raw power alone. While it lost Levitate in comparison to DPP, Cursed Body can still come in handy for shutting down choiced attackers or weaker priority like Specially Defensive Scizor's Bullet Punch, and the overall nerfing of defensive counterplay options and the addition of Nasty Plot cannot be understated. Shadow Ball in BDSP OU is an extremely powerful and spammable STAB move with very limited recourse for such a high-powered Pokemon.

Gengar's most popular set on the ladder is Choice Specs for its great hit-and-run functionality, and there are various other sets like WispHex and funky stallbreaker variants. These are all very viable, but the set that arguably pushes it over the edge is Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, and Focus Blast with Life Orb. Gengar's longevity is not all that important when many teams will simply fold to its boosted hits immediately, and this set removes most predictive counterplay- no longer can you riskily bring Choice Band Tyranitar in on a Choice Specs Shadow Ball or Sludge Bomb to dish out pain in return, as you're instantly threatened by an OHKO from Focus Blast immediately after. To put this set's power into perspective, Specially Defensive Calm Mind Blissey relies on dodging Focus Blasts, while Thunder Wave variants might not even save the slow-paced teams it usually best fits on from being threatened. Thunder Wave Blissey can also be totally invalidated by the also viable Substitute + Nasty Plot Gengar, which makes it a risky choice as your team's main counterplay option. Gengar's immunity to both Mach Punch and Extreme Speed doesn't help matters, and Specially Defensive Scizor, the most common priority move, only deals about 55.5% maximum with Bullet Punch.
As such, handling Nasty Plot Gengar even slightly consistently means one of two things- use a heavily invested Pokemon with massive special bulk, the ability to threaten Gengar, and neutralities/resistances to Ghost, Poison, and Fighting, of which the viable list is short, or make sacrifices to it and revenge kill it with a faster Pokemon or extremely powerful priority such as Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet. Having to sacrifice to Gengar to get revenge killers in safely is obviously not ideal, and of the bulky Pokemon, the vast majority are either 2HKOed on switchin by Choice Specs Gengar or crippled and pressured by WispHex Gengar, so scouting is required, but such scouting may give Nasty Plot Gengar the opportunity to set up and deny those bulky Pokemon safe entry anyway. Most are also vulnerable to Gengar after minor prior damage regardless, forcing very conservative and passive play that can be exploited by the Gengar user.

Gengar has its flaws, of course. Its Speed is great but not uncontested, it is vulnerable to priority if weakened, and it very rarely finds opportunities to switch in versus anything except a predicted double-switch. It can't beat absolutely everything at once- Choice Specs Gengar won't get through a Blissey alone and can be punished for mindless Shadow Ball use by the likes of Tyranitar, and Nasty Plot Gengar can sometimes require risk-taking to acquire the necessary turn of setup. These are quite minor flaws though, and absolutely aren't enough to discount it from being potentially banworthy- after all, similar ones are shared by various Ubers, and Gengar's lack of switch-in opportunities can be greatly compensated for by the plethora of fantastic pivots in the tier such as Scizor, Gliscor, Rotom-Wash, and Infernape.

• ***THIS IS NEW TO GEN 8 SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

Minimum games needed

GXE	Minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be BD3G. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account BD3G Eve.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular BDSP OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspect being tested, Gengar, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or BDSP Metagames moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until February 9th at 11:59 pm (GMT+0), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum. Please make sure to post proof of yourself meeting the voting requirements in the Voter Identification Thread prior to the above deadline, and read the rules in that thread carefully.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Gengar vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message a BDSP OU Council Member or BDSP Metagames forum moderator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message a BDSP OU Council Member. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message a BDSP Metagames forum moderator.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!


Extra note: please DON'T use "This Pokemon is balanced in other generations" or similar statements as a pro-ban argument, as BDSP OU is substantially different from both DPP and SwSh OU mechanically and contextually. Focus on what Gengar does in this tier.

 

[Lalaya]

That being said, I and other users have expressed the point enough that everyone should just know it at this point, but Gengar is really a busted force that should leave the tier, more than anything else banned so far (hey, at least Blaziken kills itself by recoil damage!); there's literally no actual counterplay other than "outoffensing it", which it should automatically pinpoint where the problem lies with it and with how unhealthy it is to the tier since it has no actual switchin until you guess the set (which could be multiple, since there's Specs, Scarf, Hex, Plot, Sub, Wisp and various combinations of the non choiced ones, there's even Bulky Gengar specifically made to tank Shadow Ball Blissey...), and even then you have to guess the move the Gengar is throwing at you, otherwise you lose a Pokémon for a CHANCE to kill it back (daily reminder switches exist, fortunately for the other Pokémon), and gaining advantage this freely is genuinely against any resemblance of "good presence" the ghost might have in the tier. No, being reliant on prediction isn't a good anti-ban argument unless the Pokémon can only work with it, and it's definitely not the case with Gengar since unless you have a Tyranitar in the back there's literally no drawback into firing Shadow Balls repeatedly, since Ghost resists are very few and far in between, not to mention the few that tank one +2 Shadow Ball are either straight up too niche that you would give in important slots in your team or are just very difficult to field and justify (SpDef Hippo), only playable in stall (SpDef Gastro), or die with other moves (Tyranitar, Drapion and so on), and being able to out offense a Gengar isn't either because it's a 50-50 argument, going both ways (like, just predict the Cinderace/Dracovish/Kyurem/*insert other stupid threat, easy, no?). There's genuinely no bigger threat to the tier than Gengar right now, and just because it was OU (or worse) until now doesn't justify the fact that the ghost is a menace *right now*, other than the fact that Gengar never found itself in a restricted meta with Nasty Plot and no Pursuit and no Steel resistance to fight against all together. I genuinely don't want to explain how building 30 HO/Stall (that are also forced to run countermeasures such as Shadow Ball Blissey, the last use of which was for Spectrier in SS) because the chokehold in the tier is THAT strong to build anything else is a good thing because you should be able to figure out yourselves, even if you like using Gengar

tl;dr ban this ghost so the tier may progress at once

ngl I don't even have anything else to add at this point, this Pokémon is genuinely the most busted thing outta this tier since Drizzle and Blaziken left it and even if we took time discovering it this is genuinely a case of "it should go, 100%"
I'm already glad the Mana ban actually opened up to more scarfer options to rkill it, at least (see what happens when your chokehold on the builder lessens?) but I also started seeing more Scarf Gengars lately which ruins a lot of offense matches
and again, even if we're somewhat dealing with Gengar, this is still very much unhealthy of a presence to justify the ways we're dealing with it (basically play harder offense or lose at least half your team to it), and I see no reason whatsoever to let it in the tier.

 

[AstilCodex]

I'm just going to copypaste what I've written on the discussion thread (see #374) so more people would read it from here. But its basically what Lalaya already mentioned.

If no one has realised yet, with the development of bdsp ou, Gengar has risen as the most menacing threat in the current metagame. Even above the ones already suspect tested (Manaphy and Latios) and other potent issues like Alakazam imo. So if you still wondering why Gengar over Latios? Or why straight after the Manaphy suspect?. Well, simply Gengar has the least amount of consistent counterplay, in fact, unlike Latios which has Scizor or Jirachi for example, Gengar has no consistent counterplay at all. Defensively your best way of dealing with it would be Shadow ball Blissey or some obscure pokemon like spdef Drapion or Skuntank, offensively its def a better way of dealing with it. But the difference between this and Alakazam for example is that Gengar isn't narrowed to one linear set. Zam would most likely run Lo or sash with the same attacks 95% of time. Gengar has a variety of powerful sets including Specs, Scarf,NP Lo/Sash, SubHex and more tools to its arsenal which makes it harder to outplay and scout. So offensively sometimes you just gotta hope they are the set you think they are and play it from there. Also, Focus Blast being an inaccurate move is not an argument for not banning it, as a player you have to play around said move will land unless there's no other play than hoping for a miss, if thats not unhealthy then idk what it is. Imo, this reasoning is enough to give an idea of why there was such a rush on quickbanning this pokemon. And even tho this isnt the Gengar thread (Now it is OMG). I'd probably vote ban on Gengar for the reasons aforementioned.
Thx for reading ^^

 

[ironwater]

Hey!

I agree with the two previous posts, and I think that the suspect reasoning describes well the issues with Gengar. Offensive Ghost types are extremely threatening. Choice Specs Gengar is super hard to switch into due to the lack of reliable Ghost resists in the tier and is able to overwhelm super quickly non-dedicated SpD walls like Scizor, Gliscor, Heatran. Nasty Plot Gengar is a huge threat too and can abuse its good Speed and coverage (with the unresisted Ghost + Fighting combination) to force defensive answers to come in and die to a +2 Life Orb boosted move. No one can deny that's it's one of the scariest offensive mon in the tier, and even if it's a rather frail breaker it remains super hard to revenge kill because of its amazing Speed Tier and immunity to a lot of priority moves.

Now, I know some people will say that banning Gengar would make the tier more passive and would favor more defensive playstyles. I don't think this is true, mainly because there's a lot of other breakers able to pressure common defensive structure, and also because I think that Gengar doesn't pressure stall or very fat teams as much as other playstyles. Like, these kinds of teams will always have a Calm Mind Blissey or something able to 1v1 most Gengar sets because they can't afford having to sac a mon each time against it. In my opinion, Gengar pressures way more balance teams which struggle to fit defensive answers to Gengar's main sets with only three slots. Gengar is also super good against offensive teams because it can still outspeed most offensive mons in the tier and offensive teams often have to sac something when they let it come in.

I will try to do this suspect and to practice with and against Gengar in this post Manaphy ban metagame. Right now, I'm leaning towards voting ban and there's very little chance I change my mind.

 

[nimzowitsch]

I agree with the above posts. Gengar is highkey busted and I do believe it merits a ban. Ghost/Fighting afford it perfect neutral coverage, giving it considerable latitude in moveslot options. The Specs set alone has close to no switch ins sans Blissey, and even full HP Blissey can fall if rocks are up and it doesn't rock full SpDef (granted you need to hit two Focus Blasts in a row, but if we are at the point that we need to dodge Focus Blast for "counterplay" something is wrong).

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 302-356 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In fact, even obscure answers such as SpDef Drapion are not failsafe:

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 170-200 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course you could make the argument that you can revenge kill it, but almost any Pokemon can be revenged killed, and there's a pretty common move called switching out that players can use to preserve their Gengar and fire off these strong attacks that 2HKO almost the whole tier every time they manage to get it in. In addition, not only is it immune to Espeed (the best priority move) and Mach Punch, many common priority moves fall just short of a KO, even if Stealth Rock is up. Revenge killing a full HP Gengar will often require a Pokemon that is naturally faster, such as Weavile/Zam or an exploitable scarfer, none of which want to switch into Gengar. Of course you can try using Sucker Punch for a OHKO, but that can be predicted around with moves like Substitute and Wisp. I believe that as of now there is no ironclad counterplay to Gengar.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (68.9 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 179-213 (68.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 163-193 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The SpDef Scizor calc in particular is depressing:

0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 163-193 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In fact in this current meta in practice I don't even bother with SpDef on Scizor and just run max Atk Adamant and max HP. It's better to be able to simply wipe out Gengar in one hit with a bit of chip while punishing predicted switches with U-Turn. I think this kind of "fly by the seat of your pants" counterplay has worked out better for me in practice on the ladder while I was getting reqs for Latios and Manaphy. However, this is not extremely reliable and shows that counterplay to Gengar is quite sparse in the current meta.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 212-251 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Crazy88]

Easiest ban of my life, no need for fancy calculations.

Already got my reqs and ready to vote.

 

[Monotypr]

I vote for BAN in favour of gengar as bdsp ou tier need some change with all these mons if it is like this bdsp ou tier will die so I VOTE FOR BAN

 

[Eve]

Sorry for the delay- here's the Voter Identification Thread!

 

[JustInCaseD]

The meta has been forced into a vicegrip by Gar due to it's absurdity both in the builder and in the battle. Plot runs over everything pretty without recourse; Blissey is quite litterally the only thing that can reliably stave off most varriants (but even that can lose after a Plot). Neither of the unaware mon (Clef and Quag) can reliably switch in and stob it. It's 110 base speed makes it very difficult to revenge kill, limiting the pool to certain scarfers, Starmie, Azelf, Zam and Weavile - or risking a speed tie with Latios. On top of that it's a potent scarfer in of itself, making all these options for revenging it risky until the set is scouted out. It's also got some nasty set diversification: from sub+plot to abuse passive walls or the switches it often forces to ensure saftey from revenge killing or setting up, sash to survive a revenge killing attempt, specs for immediate power, to wisp+hex to cripple threats and absolutely despimate anything that isn't immune. For example, Hex also nukes the typically ol' reliable sp.def Gliscor from being able to potentially pivot into it predicting a shadow ball, to being trucked by Gar's suprise coverage.

The limited metagame's dirth of good dark and normals along with reverse powercreep in the form of more powerful future mons that have helped keep it in check locked away, and especially the loss of Pursuit have left options for building teambuilding for Gar extremely difficult; forcing most teams to slap on a Blissey and hope for the best. And even Blissey, as mentioned earlier, struggles against the plot set.
+2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 402-474 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
When we've reached the point where people are having to run max sp.def Bliss in order to keep a certain mon in check, there's a very obvious problem here.

Now there are alternatives to building without Blissey to try and switch into Gar, but they are very few and far in between and have a certain recurrance among them... it'll become apparent in a sec.

Ttar is the only bulky dark type in OU by usage and it folds to Focus Blast. Even without a plot Lo Gar ko's Max sp.def varriants most of the time after chip, be it rocks or more than likely switching into Gar's Shadow Ball or Sludge Bomb.
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 252-300 (62.3 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 328-390 (81.1 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And if after a plot, lights out unless you're chople (which some are now being forced to run because of it).

As far as lower tier options that have been seeing usage in response to Gar, there are a select few that have seen enough experimentation to be mentioned.

Snorlax is probably the one I've seen the most of in the past few weeks, finding a home on bulky offense squads and some varriants of stall. It's the best alternative to Blis available, having it's own sets of pros and cons going for it to justify a teamslot. However it's far more susceptible than Blis to being worn down due to being reliant on either Recycle or Rest respectively. Not to mention that it still does not fair well against Gar's FB.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 458-541 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 264-312 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Umbreon has seen some use as well for being the next bulkiest dark available, and it does fair well against unboosted gar as well as other big threats tearing up the meta in Zam and Lati. However it's in the same boat as lax in terms of how it fairs dealing with FB.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO, no rocks or prior chip needed.
I also hate how this thing lets everyone's favorite staple Scizor in for a free u-turn, even with zone support when I built with this it was not fun :/

Drapion has found some leeway on a few offense and stall squads as a a t-spiker with defensive utlity of switching into gar's stabs and not being hit for super effective by FB. Despite that though... yea...
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 294-347 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO, 87.5% chance after rocks

Caught on yet? The combination of Plot, it's stabs, and Focus Blast is near unwallable - a set that is unreplicable outside of Alakazam. And while I know some folks also want Zam gone it has a few more flows that continue to hold it back, for the time being. It's speed tier makes revenging it a difficult task to a very limited pool of mons - on top of a risky given gar's ability to run scarf itself or a sash to live a hit. Game's are being decided often now by whether Gar lands it's Focus Blasts, and having your only answer to Gar being "I need Focus Blast to miss on my one answer to it or I lose" isn't good.

Gengar is, by far, the biggest factor in what is keeping balance from being a viable playstyle. A meta where every team is either forced to have a Blissey, one of the few very specific mon that can hold off gar for a time, or raw hyper offense to try and outpace it all lead to no breathing room for balance. Removing Gar from the tier would majorly diversify building, finally freeing everyone from having to run the blob which would give balance it's chance to become a legitimate playstyle.

It's about time for this ghost to get busted.

I've said most of what I wanted to say about Gar a couple of times during and after the Mana test ended, so to keep from being a broken record I'll just link a quote so I don't have to write more essays on what I've already said.

Long story short: Gar has forced the tier into a position where nothing can make healthy progress. We're trapped in a polar H.O vs hard stall meta because Gar's immense pressure and lack of reliable answers for it leave nothing in between to thrive. Balance is dead rn because when every team has to resort to Blissey because it's the one thing that can hold back Gar the best, and building with Blissey naturally favor more stall orriented partners. And the only other alternative besides that is straight offense designed to outpace as best you can.

Other than Blissey, we've got about 3/4 mons that are even remotely viable that can be slotted on your teams for it (Ttar, Snorlax, Drapion and Umbreon to some extent) and all of said mons fit into very specific teamstyles (B.O or stall), require decent to heavy amounts of support - and still fold to the same set that beats Blissey: Nasty Plot Focus Blast. For specifics niches of each mentioned mon and calcs on how well they hold off Gar you can read through the quoted post above.

I'll address quickly some of the other mons I've seen a few folks cite as "answers" for Gar and explain why those don't work or are even viable in with the previous ones mentioned above.

- This thing has had a place on some TR teams, but recently some players have been trying to push this onto other squads too. The primary arguement given by these folks for Kec is that on top of being a bulky sp.def normal you can utilize Protean with either Sucker Punch or Shadow Sneak to hit Gar with super effective priority and play around it's coverage, especially if it's choice locked. And sure, you can sneak or sucker (if you live the switch in) but gar will either switch out or survive and finish you off because sneak never kills and sucker needs either a lot of investment or chip before it kills. Also even with max bulk it still doesn't hold off Gar better than of the previously mentioned mons. a
It's a gimmicky mon already fighting for a slot in an already very niche and gimmicky playstyle, and it still often comes up short on doing what you'd want to do. Hardly can call this a viable answer for Gar.
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 248-294 (76.5 - 90.7%)
can't reliably switch into specs Sludge Bomb either
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 141-166 (43.5 - 51.2%)-- and if it gets poisoned (30% chance mind you) 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage.

- Unlike Drapion who has a real niche in the meta, Skuntank is just dead weight and doesn't offer enough. Sucker is nice but will most likely result either in a free switch for the opponent, or a sub/wisp from the gar and now you're really screwed. It really doesn't have anything to truly punish your opponent with like Drapion can with Knock Off or T-Spikes which also brings something of genuine use to other matchups that don't have gar. Drap is just far more consistent against the overall tier and you're better off using it than resorting to Skuntank for attempting to deal with 1 specific mon, which it still doesn't fare much better at answering.
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skuntank: 191-225 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery, 99.6% chance after Stealth Rocks and recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skuntank: 330-389 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

- ... I don't think I have I have to explain why using this is a bad idea.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regigigas: 458-541 (108.2 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regigigas: 264-312 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Every other available bulky normal from Miltank, Lickilicky to Kangaskhan I've seen folks, primarily on the lower ladder, try to experiment with and they all are definitively worse than everything previously mentioned. They don't get far for the same common reasons we've seen with Gar's potential defensive checks. I don't think I have to write out explanations for each individually because I think the point has been made and you can run the calcs to verify for yourself if you really want to.

Another common arguement I've seen across a few platforms:
"I don't want Gengar banned because stall will get better"
The stall stigma arguement. Yes Gengar is a good mon for breaking stall. But you know what else is good at breaking stall? Crawdaunt, Zam, Mamo and a host of other a raw power mons that stall absolutely hates dealing with. Losing Gar will not lead to stall dominance, we've got plenty of options available to handle that archetype. In fact, stall is as popular as it is right now because everyone and their mother is running Blissey to counter gar. Without Gar what will become less necessary on every single team? Blissey. So what will be less necessary and less common with Gar gone? That's right, Stall.

Removing Gar would greatly benefit the entire metagame. Without the need for Blissey balance cores would finally be able to return and open up the meta's options and teambuilding diversity. Of the 3 suspects so far, this is the one I have the most passionate and determined opinion on. I will be going for reqs again and I should I get them I will be voting to Ban Gengar. The tier needs this gone more than anything else.

 

[LittleSpookz]

It's no secret that has been terrorizing the metagame with many teams finding themselves completely incapable of switching into its Choice Specs Shadow Ball, being outrun and revenge killed by the Choice Scarf variant, or broken through by a +2 Life Orb Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast. While previous attempts to safely check these wide variety of offensive options have produced inconsistent gimmicks such as Shadow Ball today I'd like to bring attention to a reliable, consistent answer to Gengar that maintains usefulness even outside of beating Gengar


MUK

The Gengar Matchup Calcs

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 49.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery +2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Muk: 304-359 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
4 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
12 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Replays of various people finding success with Muk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499942255
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499913308-ygeopbjz4b7pvnelardzrxruhya6i47pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499945305-j7b56m00r4gqwz08liu98r77j5ggkefpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499935346-tloed7typ4wjurhjonc6xk84ldmfmxfpw
(there where 2 more but I can't find them or remember whose they where so if one of the people with those replays sees this pm me and I'll edit in them in)

Credits to: 6Roggenrolas, Lord Falinks, AstilCodex, bhkg, 1q2q, jojoreference4444, Had Sweep, and Woopre for their contributions to finding and exploring Muk

The key asset that allows Muk to serve as a legitimate answer to Gengar is its massive base 105 HP and Special Defense along with its access to Payback which has a chance to OHKO Gengar even from uninvested Muk and can be guaranteed with minimal investment and/or chip damage from Stealth Rock or Gengar's own Life Orb. With this Muk manages to reliably switch into any variant of Gengar reliably regardless of the set and pose a serious threat to Gengar in return. This is an achievement not even Calm Mind or Shadow Ball Blissey can boast but why do we care? After all a one trick pony who can only threaten 1 specific Pokémon will always be an inconsistent matchup fishing gimmick that can by no means be argued to be an answer to a potentially problematic Pokémon so what makes Muk different? Well what makes Muk different is quite simple, not only does Muk not require anywhere near maximum investment to answer Gengar allowing it a great deal of flexibility to explore its options outside of Payback but those options also allow it to both answer and threaten a large variety of common metagames staples meaning Muk can remain useful against many of Gengar's partners and teams that don't even have Gengar to begin with.

Seeing as Muks primary asset is its defensive utility we'll start there. Defensively Muk can find many switch in opportunities against common metagame threats such as any variant of Blissey, Breloom, Clefable, Gengar, Magnezone, Roserade, Rotom-Wash (so long as Muk is Sticky Hold), Scizor, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss along with most variants of Empoleon, Jirachi, and Heatran,. While this is quite an long list of switch in opportunities that doesn't mean much if Muk can't make anything out of those opportunities. Thankfully Muk's surprisingly deep movepool and flexibility in its EV spread grant it a vast and quite unpredictable list of offensive pressuring methods to threaten the opposing team.

Offensively Muk has the obvious poison STAB in either Poison Jab or Gunk Shot which allow it the threaten the fairies that have risen in response to the potent dragon type onslaught and the bulky grasses such as Tangrowth and Roserade that rose in response to the rise of offensive waters with Poison Jab even having a synergistic combo along side the Poison Touch ability giving it an effective 51% poison rate pressuring even the neutral targets that may try to switch in. As for the coverage Muk has access to Brick Break, Power-Up-Punch, and Focus Punch to punish the steels which may believe Muk is a free switch for them with Brick Break being the reliable option and Focus Punch being more prediction reliant. However given the passivity of most steels and their assumption of safety Focus Punch can be used for a more immediate punish even if you don't call the steel on switch in. That being said not all steels fear fighting move however the only 3 OU steels that posses this quality are Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi with Skarmory's need to roost making it vulnerable to fighting moves and Jirachi (as well as the rare Brongzong and Metagross) being punishable by the required Payback. This leaves only Scizor as a steel safe to switch in regardless of prediction.

Or it would if it wasn't for Fire Blast Muk! Now while this seems gimmicky and unreliable Muk actually has just enough Special Attack to 2HKO maximum Special Defense Scizor even with 0 Special Attack investment and a Careful/Adamant nature while also OHKOing the rare fast Swords Dance variant if Muk runs a -Speed Nature such as Sassy, Brave, or even Quiet. Quiet may sound like an odd choice for Muk however running Quiet not only helps the power of Fire Blast but also maximizes the healing of Giga Drain which Muk can use to hit waters (primarily Rotom-Wash) for decent damage even uninvested, but more importantly aids in Muk's unfortunately lacking recovery which is otherwise limited to Rest+Sleep Talk variants or requires support from a teammate which could simply be Wish support or the Rest 3 attacks variant having an Aromatherapy or Heal Bell user or (both of which can be provided by an already excellent Pokémon in Clefable). These are all the primary options we have been able to find for Muk however Muk also possess many other utility options which others may find use for in Haze, Disable, Explosion, Memento, Taunt, and priority Shadow Sneak as well as a handful of other coverage options which will allow Muk to continue adapting to the changing metagame around it.

While that was quiet a long tangent away from Gengar it again shows the capabilities of Muk outside of simply switching into any Gengar and proves that a team using Muk to answer Gengar is not handicapping themselves with some matchup fishing gimmick but is instead utilizing the unique attributes of a truly reliable and threatening Pokémon who holds its own place in the metagame on some of the best playstyles around such as Stall, Bulky Offense, Balance, and even Hyper Offense pivoting into a Gengar seeking the revenge KO and either attacking back or using Memento to allow something like Swords Dance Lucario to safely set up an potentially sweep the opposing team.

As clear as it is that Muk has a genuine place in the metagame allowing teams to switch into Gengar without requiring something as passive and hard to fit for certain playstyles as Blissey it still remains to be seen if this newly discovered threat will be enough to stop Gengar's currently ongoing slaughter. After all Muk is by no means flawless with its awkward recovery options and inability to touch the currently #2 in usage Gliscor requiring its team to keep these limitations in mind and preventing Muk from being mindlessly slapped onto just any team. In spite of this I believe Muk is currently the best option to create a metagame where Gengar can remain in BDSP OU.​

 

[Lalaya]

In spite of this I believe Muk is currently the best option to create a metagame where Gengar can remain in BDSP OU.

while again, I'm all for experimentation for the sake of improving and evolving the meta, the conclusion of this is just wrong; one niche Pokémon with a niche moveset tailored to have a CHANCE of stopping Gengar (since Giga Drain doesn't fix your staying problem at all, only RestTalk would) doesn't mean we should keep Gengar or that we should field this Pokémon in every not-fully offensive team to have a chance of stopping every Gengar variant

Also, Gastrodon exists if you want a Gengar answer that can actually last and its only susceptible to Energy Ball (which only Specs can afford and you should drop the usually better Hex for it), so there's no need of busting out a otherwise super gimmicky Pokémon.

 

[KaenSoul]

It's no secret that has been terrorizing the metagame with many teams finding themselves completely incapable of switching into its Choice Specs Shadow Ball, being outrun and revenge killed by the Choice Scarf variant, or broken through by a +2 Life Orb Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast. While previous attempts to safely check these wide variety of offensive options have produced inconsistent gimmicks such as Shadow Ball today I'd like to bring attention to a reliable, consistent answer to Gengar that maintains usefulness even outside of beating Gengar


MUK

The Gengar Matchup Calcs

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 49.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery +2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Muk: 304-359 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
4 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
12 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Replays of various people finding success with Muk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499942255
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499913308-ygeopbjz4b7pvnelardzrxruhya6i47pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499945305-j7b56m00r4gqwz08liu98r77j5ggkefpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499935346-tloed7typ4wjurhjonc6xk84ldmfmxfpw
(there where 2 more but I can't find them or remember whose they where so if one of the people with those replays sees this pm me and I'll edit in them in)

Credits to: 6Roggenrolas, Lord Falinks, AstilCodex, bhkg, 1q2q, jojoreference4444, Had Sweep, and Woopre for their contributions to finding and exploring Muk

The key asset that allows Muk to serve as a legitimate answer to Gengar is its massive base 105 HP and Special Defense along with its access to Payback which has a chance to OHKO Gengar even from uninvested Muk and can be guaranteed with minimal investment and/or chip damage from Stealth Rock or Gengar's own Life Orb. With this Muk manages to reliably switch into any variant of Gengar reliably regardless of the set and pose a serious threat to Gengar in return. This is an achievement not even Calm Mind or Shadow Ball Blissey can boast but why do we care? After all a one trick pony who can only threaten 1 specific Pokémon will always be an inconsistent matchup fishing gimmick that can by no means be argued to be an answer to a potentially problematic Pokémon so what makes Muk different? Well what makes Muk different is quite simple, not only does Muk not require anywhere near maximum investment to answer Gengar allowing it a great deal of flexibility to explore its options outside of Payback but those options also allow it to both answer and threaten a large variety of common metagames staples meaning Muk can remain useful against many of Gengar's partners and teams that don't even have Gengar to begin with.

Seeing as Muks primary asset is its defensive utility we'll start there. Defensively Muk can find many switch in opportunities against common metagame threats such as any variant of Blissey, Breloom, Clefable, Gengar, Magnezone, Roserade, Rotom-Wash (so long as Muk is Sticky Hold), Scizor, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss along with most variants of Empoleon, Jirachi, and Heatran,. While this is quite an long list of switch in opportunities that doesn't mean much if Muk can't make anything out of those opportunities. Thankfully Muk's surprisingly deep movepool and flexibility in its EV spread grant it a vast and quite unpredictable list of offensive pressuring methods to threaten the opposing team.

Offensively Muk has the obvious poison STAB in either Poison Jab or Gunk Shot which allow it the threaten the fairies that have risen in response to the potent dragon type onslaught and the bulky grasses such as Tangrowth and Roserade that rose in response to the rise of offensive waters with Poison Jab even having a synergistic combo along side the Poison Touch ability giving it an effective 51% poison rate pressuring even the neutral targets that may try to switch in. As for the coverage Muk has access to Brick Break, Power-Up-Punch, and Focus Punch to punish the steels which may believe Muk is a free switch for them with Brick Break being the reliable option and Focus Punch being more prediction reliant. However given the passivity of most steels and their assumption of safety Focus Punch can be used for a more immediate punish even if you don't call the steel on switch in. That being said not all steels fear fighting move however the only 3 OU steels that posses this quality are Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi with Skarmory's need to roost making it vulnerable to fighting moves and Jirachi (as well as the rare Brongzong and Metagross) being punishable by the required Payback. This leaves only Scizor as a steel safe to switch in regardless of prediction.

Or it would if it wasn't for Fire Blast Muk! Now while this seems gimmicky and unreliable Muk actually has just enough Special Attack to 2HKO maximum Special Defense Scizor even with 0 Special Attack investment and a Careful/Adamant nature while also OHKOing the rare fast Swords Dance variant if Muk runs a -Speed Nature such as Sassy, Brave, or even Quiet. Quiet may sound like an odd choice for Muk however running Quiet not only helps the power of Fire Blast but also maximizes the healing of Giga Drain which Muk can use to hit waters (primarily Rotom-Wash) for decent damage even uninvested, but more importantly aids in Muk's unfortunately lacking recovery which is otherwise limited to Rest+Sleep Talk variants or requires support from a teammate which could simply be Wish support or the Rest 3 attacks variant having an Aromatherapy or Heal Bell user or (both of which can be provided by an already excellent Pokémon in Clefable). These are all the primary options we have been able to find for Muk however Muk also possess many other utility options which others may find use for in Haze, Disable, Explosion, Memento, Taunt, and priority Shadow Sneak as well as a handful of other coverage options which will allow Muk to continue adapting to the changing metagame around it.

While that was quiet a long tangent away from Gengar it again shows the capabilities of Muk outside of simply switching into any Gengar and proves that a team using Muk to answer Gengar is not handicapping themselves with some matchup fishing gimmick but is instead utilizing the unique attributes of a truly reliable and threatening Pokémon who holds its own place in the metagame on some of the best playstyles around such as Stall, Bulky Offense, Balance, and even Hyper Offense pivoting into a Gengar seeking the revenge KO and either attacking back or using Memento to allow something like Swords Dance Lucario to safely set up an potentially sweep the opposing team.

As clear as it is that Muk has a genuine place in the metagame allowing teams to switch into Gengar without requiring something as passive and hard to fit for certain playstyles as Blissey it still remains to be seen if this newly discovered threat will be enough to stop Gengar's currently ongoing slaughter. After all Muk is by no means flawless with its awkward recovery options and inability to touch the currently #2 in usage Gliscor requiring its team to keep these limitations in mind and preventing Muk from being mindlessly slapped onto just any team. In spite of this I believe Muk is currently the best option to create a metagame where Gengar can remain in BDSP OU.​

Im not sure if im following this correctly, but you are suggesting us to use specially defensive mixed Muk as our Gengar answer?, not to mention you almost try to evade the last point of Gliscor, like, what is stopping the Gengar player from taking advantage of Muk by using Gliscor, click shadow ball, muk take some damage and now Gliscor can come in for free set rocks or just u-turn away to repeat the process.
And you are hitting Gengar with Payback, if you come in Wisp or Subs the set is dead as you lose all the surprise factor and you are forced to rest talk to even check wisp Gengar so no mixed sets, and a lot of stuff in the tier can take advantage of a Poison Stab/Payback/RestTalk set, not just Gliscor.
You really believe that the people who dont want to use Blissey on every team to check Gengar are going to be happy using specially defensive Muk instead?

I kind of dont want to get reqs this time because arceus just come out and im having more fun with that than playing Gengar royale on the ladder, but i will try to find the time during the week.

 

[master oden]

It's no secret that has been terrorizing the metagame with many teams finding themselves completely incapable of switching into its Choice Specs Shadow Ball, being outrun and revenge killed by the Choice Scarf variant, or broken through by a +2 Life Orb Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast. While previous attempts to safely check these wide variety of offensive options have produced inconsistent gimmicks such as Shadow Ball today I'd like to bring attention to a reliable, consistent answer to Gengar that maintains usefulness even outside of beating Gengar


MUK

The Gengar Matchup Calcs

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 49.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery +2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Muk: 304-359 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
4 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
12 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Replays of various people finding success with Muk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499942255
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499913308-ygeopbjz4b7pvnelardzrxruhya6i47pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499945305-j7b56m00r4gqwz08liu98r77j5ggkefpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1499935346-tloed7typ4wjurhjonc6xk84ldmfmxfpw
(there where 2 more but I can't find them or remember whose they where so if one of the people with those replays sees this pm me and I'll edit in them in)

Credits to: 6Roggenrolas, Lord Falinks, AstilCodex, bhkg, 1q2q, jojoreference4444, Had Sweep, and Woopre for their contributions to finding and exploring Muk

The key asset that allows Muk to serve as a legitimate answer to Gengar is its massive base 105 HP and Special Defense along with its access to Payback which has a chance to OHKO Gengar even from uninvested Muk and can be guaranteed with minimal investment and/or chip damage from Stealth Rock or Gengar's own Life Orb. With this Muk manages to reliably switch into any variant of Gengar reliably regardless of the set and pose a serious threat to Gengar in return. This is an achievement not even Calm Mind or Shadow Ball Blissey can boast but why do we care? After all a one trick pony who can only threaten 1 specific Pokémon will always be an inconsistent matchup fishing gimmick that can by no means be argued to be an answer to a potentially problematic Pokémon so what makes Muk different? Well what makes Muk different is quite simple, not only does Muk not require anywhere near maximum investment to answer Gengar allowing it a great deal of flexibility to explore its options outside of Payback but those options also allow it to both answer and threaten a large variety of common metagames staples meaning Muk can remain useful against many of Gengar's partners and teams that don't even have Gengar to begin with.

Seeing as Muks primary asset is its defensive utility we'll start there. Defensively Muk can find many switch in opportunities against common metagame threats such as any variant of Blissey, Breloom, Clefable, Gengar, Magnezone, Roserade, Rotom-Wash (so long as Muk is Sticky Hold), Scizor, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss along with most variants of Empoleon, Jirachi, and Heatran,. While this is quite an long list of switch in opportunities that doesn't mean much if Muk can't make anything out of those opportunities. Thankfully Muk's surprisingly deep movepool and flexibility in its EV spread grant it a vast and quite unpredictable list of offensive pressuring methods to threaten the opposing team.

Offensively Muk has the obvious poison STAB in either Poison Jab or Gunk Shot which allow it the threaten the fairies that have risen in response to the potent dragon type onslaught and the bulky grasses such as Tangrowth and Roserade that rose in response to the rise of offensive waters with Poison Jab even having a synergistic combo along side the Poison Touch ability giving it an effective 51% poison rate pressuring even the neutral targets that may try to switch in. As for the coverage Muk has access to Brick Break, Power-Up-Punch, and Focus Punch to punish the steels which may believe Muk is a free switch for them with Brick Break being the reliable option and Focus Punch being more prediction reliant. However given the passivity of most steels and their assumption of safety Focus Punch can be used for a more immediate punish even if you don't call the steel on switch in. That being said not all steels fear fighting move however the only 3 OU steels that posses this quality are Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi with Skarmory's need to roost making it vulnerable to fighting moves and Jirachi (as well as the rare Brongzong and Metagross) being punishable by the required Payback. This leaves only Scizor as a steel safe to switch in regardless of prediction.

Or it would if it wasn't for Fire Blast Muk! Now while this seems gimmicky and unreliable Muk actually has just enough Special Attack to 2HKO maximum Special Defense Scizor even with 0 Special Attack investment and a Careful/Adamant nature while also OHKOing the rare fast Swords Dance variant if Muk runs a -Speed Nature such as Sassy, Brave, or even Quiet. Quiet may sound like an odd choice for Muk however running Quiet not only helps the power of Fire Blast but also maximizes the healing of Giga Drain which Muk can use to hit waters (primarily Rotom-Wash) for decent damage even uninvested, but more importantly aids in Muk's unfortunately lacking recovery which is otherwise limited to Rest+Sleep Talk variants or requires support from a teammate which could simply be Wish support or the Rest 3 attacks variant having an Aromatherapy or Heal Bell user or (both of which can be provided by an already excellent Pokémon in Clefable). These are all the primary options we have been able to find for Muk however Muk also possess many other utility options which others may find use for in Haze, Disable, Explosion, Memento, Taunt, and priority Shadow Sneak as well as a handful of other coverage options which will allow Muk to continue adapting to the changing metagame around it.

While that was quiet a long tangent away from Gengar it again shows the capabilities of Muk outside of simply switching into any Gengar and proves that a team using Muk to answer Gengar is not handicapping themselves with some matchup fishing gimmick but is instead utilizing the unique attributes of a truly reliable and threatening Pokémon who holds its own place in the metagame on some of the best playstyles around such as Stall, Bulky Offense, Balance, and even Hyper Offense pivoting into a Gengar seeking the revenge KO and either attacking back or using Memento to allow something like Swords Dance Lucario to safely set up an potentially sweep the opposing team.

As clear as it is that Muk has a genuine place in the metagame allowing teams to switch into Gengar without requiring something as passive and hard to fit for certain playstyles as Blissey it still remains to be seen if this newly discovered threat will be enough to stop Gengar's currently ongoing slaughter. After all Muk is by no means flawless with its awkward recovery options and inability to touch the currently #2 in usage Gliscor requiring its team to keep these limitations in mind and preventing Muk from being mindlessly slapped onto just any team. In spite of this I believe Muk is currently the best option to create a metagame where Gengar can remain in BDSP OU.​

Okay listen, the fact that you suggest something like Muk to answer Gengar shows that Gengar is restrictive on teambuilding. Let's face it: No one would run Muk if Gengar was not in the metagame, because it's main niche is beating Gengar. Sure, it CAN do other things, but crippling yourself by using Muk and making your team worse overall instead of using a better poison type just to beat Gengar shows that Gar itself is restricting on teambuilding. It's a similar dilemma to how Crit-Dra has only one safe answer in BSDP RU, and that is SPDEF Shell Armor Lapras. Putting those specfic mons are to answer a single pokemon, and that reason only. This does not contribute to a healthy metagame, as if defensive counterplay is this limited, why not just BAN GENGAR? Your argument contradicts the anti-ban argument you are going for, as it SHOWS that Gengar is unhealthy because you suggest a fringe answer with a niche moveset as the most viable counterplay. Having one niche response that does next to nothing to the rest of the metagame is NOT a healthy metagame development.

And even if you run Muk, the Gengar user can respond to it easily with something that hard walls anything Muk can try to pull like Skarmory, Heatran, Empoleon, or Jirachi which has effectiveness against the rest of the tier, far more than Muk does at least.

Ban Gengar.

 

[BT89]

Hey! It's your least favorite BDSP chat presence BT89 to talk about our broken ghost here. So far, I have seen no convincing reasons to keep Gengar in the tier, and would definitely support it being banned. There is just far too little in terms of viable counterplay. The fact that Pokemon like Muk, Skuntank, Regigigas, and Kecleon have obtained legitimate usage solely due to Gengar is a glaring sign that this thing warps building in an extremely unhealthy way. Nasty Plot + STABs + Focus Blast is definitely the main offender in Gengar's brokenness, mainly because Ghost/Fighting is perfect neutral coverage, but this also brings another point: its unparalleled versatility. You may have a switch into Specs Gengar, but what about Nasty Plot sets? Does your switch in eat Focus Blast? What coverage move is Gengar running last? What if it is Will-O-Wisp or Substitute? So on and so forth. This dynamic reminds me of the original DPP Salamence somewhat, since one of the key factors in its brokenness was its versatility making it impossible to tell what set it was running, much like Gengar. Also, I have seen people claim the meta becomes passive if Gengar leaves, which is just wrong. Do you not see how many breakers we still have? I've also seen arguments about Gengar being OK because of priority, which is also pretty stupid because it lives some crazy priority moves from full, like Azumarill and Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, let alone stuff like Scizor Bullet Punch and Weavile Ice Shard.

TL;DR - There is no legitimate reason for Gengar to stay in the tier and thus, it should be banned
​

And even if you run Muk, the Gengar user can respond to it easily with something that hard walls anything Muk can try to pull like Skarmory, Heatran, Empoleon, or Jirachi which has effectiveness against the rest of the tier, far more than Muk does at least.

i was gonna ignore this muk shit but might as well
Also adding on to this, Muk can't even switch in reliably. If Gengar is already boosted, then Muk is more or less dead.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

 

[QY_CS]

while again, I'm all for experimentation for the sake of improving and evolving the meta, the conclusion of this is just wrong; one niche Pokémon with a niche moveset tailored to have a CHANCE of stopping Gengar (since Giga Drain doesn't fix your staying problem at all, only RestTalk would) doesn't mean we should keep Gengar or that we should field this Pokémon in every not-fully offensive team to have a chance of stopping every Gengar variant

Also, Gastrodon exists if you want a Gengar answer that can actually last and its only susceptible to Energy Ball (which only Specs can afford and you should drop the usually better Hex for it), so there's no need of busting out a otherwise super gimmicky Pokémon.

He's the discusser in main thread that wanted to ban Gliscor btw :D

Back to the discussion about gengar itself: biggest problem about gengar is the meta losing pursuit compared to gen1-7, and generally being less broken than gen8. Gengar's hard-to-deal-with nature is already well visible through all previous generations, nothing much had changed. I think whether it actually is broken is dependent not really on how a lot of people claims, but on the cost-opportunity of the pokemon. In the previous generations, gengar had been very hard to send in, and also relatively hard to be kept alive. This gen however, despite the fact that it still cannot be swapped into anything, it is much easier to send the poke out without being punished too hard. I personally am leaning more towards a ban because of this reason, and I would like to hear other people out about this aspect.
P.S. Also on a side note, Alakazam is just as broken for the same reason imo.

 

[Xilefi]

This is a lot more quiet than I expected after all the fuss on both BDSP OU metagame and manaphy suspect threads. Anyway, I want to add my touch to the discussion by saying that if I advocate for a ban of Gengar, I do not believe that the argument "this X pokemon pressures this Y style" is valid. For instance, Balance styles don't have to be necessarily good and for what it matters Balance can be as unhealthy as any other style if too dominant (ie SwSh Clef Corvi Seismitoad core before Dracovish ban). The purpose of any ban is not to make any style nor any pokemon better but to enable the metagame to develop thanks to players innovation and adaptation. This is by the way why a pokemon being broken isn't the only reason to actually ban it.

To talk about Gengar in itself, however it is broken or unhealthy, it is more than worthy of a suspect test. Not gonna lie, I would have not complain a little bit about it being quickbanned. The amount of reasonable counterplays is far too low and you actually have to play them altogether to have decent chance of success against Gengar. If Scizor, Weavile, Alakazam, Crawdaunt, Blissey, Azumarril plus some common scarfers were already serviceable before post-ban manaphy metagame, they have become more than mandatory. Even when you accumulate them, any decision you make during a battle affects and diminishes your ability to handle Gengar even if Gengar has not touched the ground yet (as it can finally touch the ground !). Gengar makes a big part of its value already in both the builder and in the match preview room but as if it was not enough, when it does touch the ground, it does put something down.

In the specific case of Gengar, the debate between it being broken or it being unhealthy is far more interesting than knowing if it is banworthy or not. I do think it is broken for what it matters and something broken has to go, as something unhealthy has.

 

[Nasa Agent]

I made reqs and I'm voting not to ban it. I know it's crazy but it's true.

I made reqs with a non blissey team using sp def scizor. With that team during my reqs I went 30-1 (I lost 3 games using other teams) I know gengar is getting banned...but all that ever happens on here is people complain about stuff that is limiting and mistaken it for broken. Ask yourself is gengar truly broken? I asked myself that and I said no, but to confirm I decided to go for reqs without a real gengar counter (I used sp def scizor who gar destroys). With the high gxe reqiurment and the use of gengar at a all time high...it's no way I should have been able to make it with no gengar switch ins. But I did, so I just want to say this even though it's going to get banned.

Gengar is the most limiting Pokemon in the tier for sure...however there will always be another Pokemon to fill the gap (that people will claim as broken). I think gengar sitting at the top as the most limiting pokemon is very healthy since both of it's stabbed moves have immunities and the most popular set is specs. There is a plethora of pokemon that could check gengar or at minimum used to stop shadow ball but they just haven't found that much use in ou. Not really a surprise here but no one talks about how broken sludge bomb is on gengar and that's because there is a lot viable steel types. But as you see currently only 2 normal pokemon is ou and 3 dark. Let the meta develop and that would change.

Regardless gengar is not the most dangerous or broken in the tier. It's just the easiest to use and most limiting because currently everyone is running the same 10 pokemon that don't appericate shadow balls to the face. I played 38 games and not once did I get destroyed by gengar...it never happened. Gengar struggles to switch in (but boy when it's in does it become a problem), and often once gengar gets one kill it has to switch out or be revenged killed by a mon that can take a shadow ball or get killed by something faster (which there is a couple of these mons and even more that speed tie). It it switches out it has to wait patiently to switch in again and if you play smart that will usually be once something else has been ko'd. Unless you're running a bunch of stall mons with passive moves gengar shouldn't be dominating your games coming in and out. If gengar is the biggest threat on my opponents team I'm usually happy...yes I'm still worried and respect the treat but I know I have priority, faster mons, and mons with enough bulk that can take a shadow ball and ohko.

Before I even start this next point I want to say I barely ever use stall and I think a lot of people might struggle against gar cause they are packing four fat mon on a team. Pretty much they play passive and that's why gengar is blowing some of you up. Either way it goes this mon is not broken imo, I see a lot of calcs as arguments. I can list a bunch of mons that destroy the meta just like gengar on paper. However, I fail to see how when you are team building in this tier and you aren't packing something faster then 350 speed (as a variety threats come at this speed) or hard hitting priority. The way you limit gengar from getting kills is the same way you limit starmie, zam, latios, weavile and etc. Fast frail mons that can break teams...gengar isn't magically different. Except shadow ball is harder to switch into currently even though their is immunities for both gengar stabbed moves.

If we want to talk about checks for the choice specs set (the most common) we have multiple checks: gliscor check sets without hex, blissey just beat gar just run shadow ball (excluding curse body), milotic 252 hp 252 sp def, gastordawn without energy ball and can ohko with earthquake, heatran with protect if you don't switch in on focus blast, same goes for all t-tar sets on none super effective set, umbreon...I consider all these mons viable in ou.

 

[Liquidocelot]

I made reqs and I'm voting not to ban it. I know it's crazy but it's true.

I made reqs with a non blissey team using sp def scizor. With that team during my reqs I went 30-1 (I lost 3 games using other teams) I know gengar is getting banned...but all that ever happens on here is people complain about stuff that is limiting and mistaken it for broken. Ask yourself is gengar truly broken? I asked myself that and I said no, but to confirm I decided to go for reqs without a real gengar counter (I used sp def scizor who gar destroys). With the high gxe reqiurment and the use of gengar at a all time high...it's no way I should have been able to make it with no gengar switch ins. But I did, so I just want to say this even though it's going to get banned.

Gengar is the most limiting Pokemon in the tier for sure...however there will always be another Pokemon to fill the gap (that people will claim as broken). I think gengar sitting at the top as the most limiting pokemon is very healthy since both of it's stabbed moves have immunities and the most popular set is specs. There is a plethora of pokemon that could check gengar or at minimum used to stop shadow ball but they just haven't found that much use in ou. Not really a surprise here but no one talks about how broken sludge bomb is on gengar and that's because there is a lot viable steel types. But as you see currently only 2 normal pokemon is ou and 3 dark. Let the meta develop and that would change.

Regardless gengar is not the most dangerous or broken in the tier. It's just the easiest to use and most limiting because currently everyone is running the same 10 pokemon that don't appericate shadow balls to the face. I played 38 games and not once did I get destroyed by gengar...it never happened. Gengar struggles to switch in (but boy when it's in does it become a problem), and often once gengar gets one kill it has to switch out or be revenged killed by a mon that can take a shadow ball or get killed by something faster (which there is a couple of these mons and evene more that speed tie). It it switches out it has to wait patiently to switch in again and if you play smart that will usually be once something else has died. Unless you're running a bunch of stall mons with passive moves gengar shouldn't be dominating your games coming in and out. If gengar is the biggest threat on my opponents team I'm usually happy...yes I'm still worried and respect the treat but I know I have priority, faster mons, and mons with enough bulk that can take a shadow ball and ohko.

Before I even start this next point I want to say I barely ever use stall and I think a lot of people might struggle against gar cause they are packing four fat mon on a team. Pretty much they play passive and that's why gengar is blowing some of you up. Either way it goes this mon is not broken imo, I see a lot of calcs as arguments. I can list a bunch of mons that destroy the meta just like gengar on paper. However, I fail to see how when you are team building in this tier and you aren't packing something faster then 350 speed as a (variety threats come at this speed) or hard hitting priority. The way you limit gengar from getting kills is the same way you limit starmie, zam, latios, weavile and etc. Fast frail mons that can break teams...gengar isn't magically different. Except shadow ball is harder to switch into currently even though their is immunities for both gengar stabbed moves.

SPD Scizor is one of the best and only checks to Gengar in the entire tier. Idk what you're talking about. It only can't switch in on + 2 Gengar but idk what you're talking about.

 

[Xilefi]

I made reqs and I'm voting not to ban it. I know it's crazy but it's true.

I made reqs with a non blissey team using sp def scizor. With that team during my reqs I went 30-1 (I lost 3 games using other teams) I know gengar is getting banned...but all that ever happens on here is people complain about stuff that is limiting and mistaken it for broken. Ask yourself is gengar truly broken? I asked myself that and I said no, but to confirm I decided to go for reqs without a real gengar counter (I used sp def scizor who gar destroys). With the high gxe reqiurment and the use of gengar at a all time high...it's no way I should have been able to make it with no gengar switch ins. But I did, so I just want to say this even though it's going to get banned.

Gengar is the most limiting Pokemon in the tier for sure...however there will always be another Pokemon to fill the gap (that people will claim as broken). I think gengar sitting at the top as the most limiting pokemon is very healthy since both of it's stabbed moves have immunities and the most popular set is specs. There is a plethora of pokemon that could check gengar or at minimum used to stop shadow ball but they just haven't found that much use in ou. Not really a surprise here but no one talks about how broken sludge bomb is on gengar and that's because there is a lot viable steel types. But as you see currently only 2 normal pokemon is ou and 3 dark. Let the meta develop and that would change.

Regardless gengar is not the most dangerous or broken in the tier. It's just the easiest to use and most limiting because currently everyone is running the same 10 pokemon that don't appericate shadow balls to the face. I played 38 games and not once did I get destroyed by gengar...it never happened. Gengar struggles to switch in (but boy when it's in does it become a problem), and often once gengar gets one kill it has to switch out or be revenged killed by a mon that can take a shadow ball or get killed by something faster (which there is a couple of these mons and evene more that speed tie). It it switches out it has to wait patiently to switch in again and if you play smart that will usually be once something else has died. Unless you're running a bunch of stall mons with passive moves gengar shouldn't be dominating your games coming in and out. If gengar is the biggest threat on my opponents team I'm usually happy...yes I'm still worried and respect the treat but I know I have priority, faster mons, and mons with enough bulk that can take a shadow ball and ohko.

Before I even start this next point I want to say I barely ever use stall and I think a lot of people might struggle against gar cause they are packing four fat mon on a team. Pretty much they play passive and that's why gengar is blowing some of you up. Either way it goes this mon is not broken imo, I see a lot of calcs as arguments. I can list a bunch of mons that destroy the meta just like gengar on paper. However, I fail to see how when you are team building in this tier and you aren't packing something faster then 350 speed as a (variety threats come at this speed) or hard hitting priority. The way you limit gengar from getting kills is the same way you limit starmie, zam, latios, weavile and etc. Fast frail mons that can break teams...gengar isn't magically different. Except shadow ball is harder to switch into currently even though their is immunities for both gengar stabbed moves.

I am somewhat happy that someone has finally come with a reasonable argumentation about do not ban Gengar. I can totally hear there will always be a better mon in a tier and that what you bring against Gengar would still be part of the metagame regardless of the presence of Gengar. Though I disagree (who would have guessed !) with some points that you have brought up.

In my opinion, Gengar is both broken and unhealthy. It is broken because there is no pokemon in the thier that can do what it should do (breaking/reveng killing/cleaning depending of your set) without any thinking nor strategy whatsoever. It is brought in, it clicks a move, it goes out. Regardless of what it is facing, it doesn't need to adapt whatever the set it runs.

When you are talking about immunities being a thing (which is true), there is no pokemon with one of them that can, neither offensively or defensively, take advantage of taking no damage from either shadow ball or sludge bomb. Offensively, I can think of Ambipom scarf Staraptor that is both faster than non scarf Gengar and immune to Shadow Ball but even then, Staraptor is limited by its own flaws : the weakness to stealth rocks is a liability and its longevity is non existent. Defensively, Ambipom Blissey is far more to passive to generate any momentum even if it is immuned. You can do the list of counterplays to Gengar and you can do a list of the more than viable counterplays that exist to the first ones (that I won't do here for the sake of being readable), which also does apply to any non-immune pokemon. They are the definiton of niches and if niches are interesting they rarely promote healthyness as by essence they are restrictive in their usage. Anyway, Gengar is not always choice locked and can click other moves than the expected Sludge Bomb or Shadow Ball. And if it can't it just switches out. As the second layer of counterplays is far better than the first one, it is far easier to accompany Gengar than dealing with it. What it does once, it can do it twice. As a conclusion, if innovation can be a thing against Gengar, Gengar does prevent adaptation.

This is where we can talk about the healthyness of the tier. Gengar does reduce the amount of viable plays you can play. If I agree there is no reason that what is good now would be bad after (assuming Gengar would be banned), Gengar is one more reason to run Aqua Jet users, it is one more reason to run Scizor, it is one more reason to run Weavile, it is one less reason to run Extreme Speed users, Mach Punch users, one less reason to run scarfers that can't OHKO Gengar, etc. You have no reason to drive away from the ten mons that are already being run while you would have decent adaptations against them. And Gengar is a big part of that. Of course, it is not the only culprit and adem has talked about it during the Manaphy suspect test that banning multiple mons might be better (which is impossible due to smogon policy that I won't develop here) than suspecting them one by one. Anyway, Gengar is not the kind of mons that prevent things to take over BDSP OU, it is the exact opposite : it has taken over BDSP OU. I think that having it as the top threat of the tier is especially unhealthy.

 

[Moyashi]

I made reqs and I'm voting not to ban it. I know it's crazy but it's true.

I made reqs with a non blissey team using sp def scizor. With that team during my reqs I went 30-1 (I lost 3 games using other teams) I know gengar is getting banned...but all that ever happens on here is people complain about stuff that is limiting and mistaken it for broken. Ask yourself is gengar truly broken? I asked myself that and I said no, but to confirm I decided to go for reqs without a real gengar counter (I used sp def scizor who gar destroys). With the high gxe reqiurment and the use of gengar at a all time high...it's no way I should have been able to make it with no gengar switch ins. But I did, so I just want to say this even though it's going to get banned.

Gengar is the most limiting Pokemon in the tier for sure...however there will always be another Pokemon to fill the gap (that people will claim as broken). I think gengar sitting at the top as the most limiting pokemon is very healthy since both of it's stabbed moves have immunities and the most popular set is specs. There is a plethora of pokemon that could check gengar or at minimum used to stop shadow ball but they just haven't found that much use in ou. Not really a surprise here but no one talks about how broken sludge bomb is on gengar and that's because there is a lot viable steel types. But as you see currently only 2 normal pokemon is ou and 3 dark. Let the meta develop and that would change.

Regardless gengar is not the most dangerous or broken in the tier. It's just the easiest to use and most limiting because currently everyone is running the same 10 pokemon that don't appericate shadow balls to the face. I played 38 games and not once did I get destroyed by gengar...it never happened. Gengar struggles to switch in (but boy when it's in does it become a problem), and often once gengar gets one kill it has to switch out or be revenged killed by a mon that can take a shadow ball or get killed by something faster (which there is a couple of these mons and evene more that speed tie). It it switches out it has to wait patiently to switch in again and if you play smart that will usually be once something else has died. Unless you're running a bunch of stall mons with passive moves gengar shouldn't be dominating your games coming in and out. If gengar is the biggest threat on my opponents team I'm usually happy...yes I'm still worried and respect the treat but I know I have priority, faster mons, and mons with enough bulk that can take a shadow ball and ohko.

Before I even start this next point I want to say I barely ever use stall and I think a lot of people might struggle against gar cause they are packing four fat mon on a team. Pretty much they play passive and that's why gengar is blowing some of you up. Either way it goes this mon is not broken imo, I see a lot of calcs as arguments. I can list a bunch of mons that destroy the meta just like gengar on paper. However, I fail to see how when you are team building in this tier and you aren't packing something faster then 350 speed as a (variety threats come at this speed) or hard hitting priority. The way you limit gengar from getting kills is the same way you limit starmie, zam, latios, weavile and etc. Fast frail mons that can break teams...gengar isn't magically different. Except shadow ball is harder to switch into currently even though their is immunities for both gengar stabbed moves.

You say "there will always be another Pokemon to fill the gap (that people will claim as broken)", which is something I find a bit odd. Sometimes other good mons are held back by a really broken mon (think of Aegislash in gen6 and how many mons became viable with it leaving), but very rarely does it actually end up being the case that something else crops up in place of that broken mon that ends up equally as broken. And in the case of Gengar, this very likely won't happen.

After all it isn't suffocating offense, it is making bulky teams very hard to build without relying on overly specific mons and builds like Shadow Ball Blissey or SpDef Scizor. And aside from Blissey and Ttar, there are pretty much zero consistent switchs to Shadow Ball. You say to let the meta develop and "that will change", but... How? A bunch of mediocre pokemon filling the role of Gengar check is pretty much a sign of its brokenness and restrictiveness.

Gar also packs many sets, and yes specs is the most common but scarf, LO, NP and sub sets are all also equally viable and dangerous and not too far behind. Making it even harder to handle because scouting wrong gives certain sets all the opportunity it needs. And Priority is not an answer unless it is heavily chipped.

Also SpDef Scizor is one of the few good checks to Gar. And SpDef Zor is an indicator of a larger issue given its way too high usage. Granted that also has to do with a blue jet plane and a certain big brain spoon wielder, but Gar is the biggest issue of them all.

I do respect your opinion even if I don't really agree with much of it all. I just do not think the suffocating effect Gar has on the tier is healthy at all.

 

[Nasa Agent]

SPD Scizor is one of the best and only checks to Gengar in the entire tier. Idk what you're talking about. It only can't switch in on + 2 Gengar but idk what you're talking about.

If rocks are up sp def scizor is 2hkko by specs I don't call that a check...fact is sp def scizor can't switch in on shadow ball. Heatran with protect or earth power, t-tar, blissey - shadow ball, gastordawn, milotic would be way better checks imo. Scizor can only beat scarf it loses to every other set. It loses on paper and in practice...especially when curse body activates. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

[QY_CS]

Offensively, I can think of Ambipom scarf Staraptor that is both faster than non scarf Gengar and immune to Shadow Ball but even then, Staraptor is limited by its own flaws : the weakness to stealth rocks is a liability and its longevity is non existent. Defensively, Ambipom Blissey is far more to passive to generate any momentum even if it is immuned.

Ambipom is not immune to rocks and is also not a momentum drain. Plz acknowledge it to be a proper gengar check! Crossout = disrespect :(

On a more serious note, this discussion had been appearing more and more familiar to me as the Latios discussion. Proban side be like "no LO set is OP wtf" while Antiban side be like "specs is what 90% people use lol"
Just saying, not taking any side on this

 

[Nasa Agent]

You say "there will always be another Pokemon to fill the gap (that people will claim as broken)", which is something I find a bit odd. Sometimes other good mons are held back by a really broken mon (think of Aegislash in gen6 and how many mons became viable with it leaving), but very rarely does it actually end up being the case that something else crops up in place of that broken mon that ends up equally as broken. And in the case of Gengar, this very likely won't happen.

After all it isn't suffocating offense, it is making bulky teams very hard to build without relying on overly specific mons and builds like Shadow Ball Blissey or SpDef Scizor. And aside from Blissey and Ttar, there are pretty much zero consistent switchs to Shadow Ball. You say to let the meta develop and "that will change", but... How? A bunch of mediocre pokemon filling the role of Gengar check is pretty much a sign of its brokenness and restrictiveness.

Gar also packs many sets, and yes specs is the most common but scarf, LO, NP and sub sets are all also equally viable and dangerous and not too far behind. Making it even harder to handle because scouting wrong gives certain sets all the opportunity it needs. And Priority is not an answer unless it is heavily chipped.

Also SpDef Scizor is one of the few good checks to Gar. And SpDef Zor is an indicator of a larger issue given its way too high usage. Granted that also has to do with a blue jet plane and a certain big brain spoon wielder, but Gar is the biggest issue of them all.

I do respect your opinion even if I don't really agree with much of it all. I just do not think the suffocating effect Gar has on the tier is healthy at all.

In gen 6 if aegislash was retested it probably wouldn't have been banned. Just like in gen 7 aegislash with it's added move pool was UU for sometime. This is the case for any tier, any game, and any thing that is competitive. The meta doesn't develop in a month or two. Gen 4 and 5 meta is still settling or just settled in competitive after years (I believe). My point is gengar clearly has answers, but nobody wants to or are using them. Milotic takes 30-36% from choice specs. Gastordawn literally takes every move outside of energy ball which life orb doesn't even run and kills with earthquake. Gastro isn't even ou. But somehow scizor is a good check right? I really don't know how you guys are getting at that one when it gets beat by the most popular set outright and it loses too 3 out of 4 sets. Milotic also deals with latios pretty well even with thunder bolt and mirror coat is very useful mix with scald and ice beam. My only point is yes the current ou meta would shift if gengar stayed and it would be adjusted. Your not going to lie to me and tell me militic and gastro aren't useful. I'm telling you viable pokemon that usually have a place in the meta, I'm not suggesting muk. Umbreon would be a decent answer and it is a really strong against the current meta. But idk, like I said is gengar limiting for sure but you prep for it the same way you should be prepping for zam, starmie and the twins...but is it the most dangerous or broken...not at all. It's just a thoughtless spamable pokemon you slap on choice specs and can pick up kills with. That by no means doesn't make it different and doesn't warrant being called broken. It's just very easy to click shadow ball and the secondary effect is pretty nice also.

 

[Moyashi]

In gen 6 if aegislash was retested it probably wouldn't have been banned. Just like in gen 7 aegislash with it's added move pool was UU for sometime. This is the case for any tier, any game, and any thing that is competitive. The meta doesn't develop in a month or two. Gen 4 and 5 meta is still settling or just settled in competitive after years (I believe). My point is gengar clearly has answers, but nobody wants to or are using them. Milotic takes 30-36% from choice specs. Gastordawn literally takes every move outside of energy ball which life orb doesn't even run and kills with earthquake. Gastro isn't even ou. But somehow scizor is a good check right? I really don't know how you guys are getting at that one when it gets beat by the most popular set outright and it loses too 3 out of 4 sets. Milotic also deals with latios pretty well even with thunder bolt and mirror coat is very useful mix with scald and ice beam. My only point is yes the current ou meta would shift if gengar stayed and it would be adjusted. Your not going to lie to me and tell me militic and gastro aren't useful. I'm telling you viable pokemon that usually have a place in the meta, I'm not suggesting muk. Umbreon would be a decent answer and it is a really strong against the current meta. But idk, like I said is gengar limiting for sure but you prep for it the same way you should be prepping for zam, starmie and the twins...but is it the most dangerous or broken...not at all. It's just a thoughtless spamable pokemon you slap on choice specs and can pick up kills with. That by no means doesn't make it different and doesn't warrant being called broken. It's just very easy to click shadow ball and the secondary effect is pretty nice also.

I don't think speculating on Slash being banworthy in gen6 if it were retested is pertinent to the topic at hand. And even M-Latias was UU in gen7 for a time, which really says more sbout new toy syndrome which can cause even amazing mons to be overlooked.

The problem is the meta isn't developing in a healthy direction with Gar around. You say there are answers to Gar, but... Milotic fears coverage moves and can lose to NP sets. You say LO Gar doesn't run Energyball but if it really needed to it could. Gar is a case of a mon who can tailor its moveset to beat its checks and rarely be worse off for it. (Also Milo cannot handle Latios with Tbolt without max spdef but that is not on topic anyways, other than if you want a bulky water just use Washtom or even Slowking).

Milotic is unranked, Gastro is B rank, and Umbreon is unranked. They may find niches later in the meta but as of now two of them have no real relevance in the meta and the third is highly specific. You don't prep for Gar like you do Latis, Alakazam and even Starmie. They all have semi consistent checks at least, whereas Gar has shaky checks people may stack on teams. You keep talking of Gar like specs is all people use but I even pointed out its many other viable and decently popular sets.

 

[ATowerFalledXD]

My point is gengar clearly has answers, but nobody wants to or are using them.

i dont wanna use umbreon or milotic(SORRY had sweep) or gastro in ou, i wanna use something that is in the ou tier to check gengar but gengar can beat all of them for some reason. And even then, Latios sometimes even runs energy ball just for gastrodon so whats stopping gengar from doing the same?

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 315-372 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 480-568 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 320-380 (75.1 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But idk, like I said is gengar limiting for sure but you prep for it the same way you should be prepping for zam, starmie and the twins...but is it the most dangerous or broken...not at all. It's just a thoughtless spamable pokemon you slap on choice specs and can pick up kills with. That by no means doesn't make it different and doesn't warrant being called broken. It's just very easy to click shadow ball and the secondary effect is pretty nice also.

This is just terrible logic so let's address this.

For zam, Alakazam is way more balanced then gengar and the meta actually can kinda keep up with it. Alakazam ACTUALLY dies to prios and scizor actually has less trouble checking zam since it resists psychic and even weavile can switch into alakazam (though this is risky) since it's immune to psychic. Alakazam is viewed as unhealthy like latios and gengar due to it's ability to always have a free sturdy and it can even switch out on 1 hp, come back, take no rocks, and damage something, and of course, being able to beat it's checks.

For lati twins, Now i believe latios is also unhealthy and doesn't need to be in ou but atleast things like blissey can check it, scizor can to but my thing with scizor is that its taking 40% from draco meteor, roosting, and if ur opponent chooses to go magnezone(which is a parter with latios on dragmag), then scizor is going to be u-turning out with like 30% hp and leaving it unable to switch in without dying to latios.

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor: 146-172 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor: 204-240 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And for starmie, Starmie is almost always naturally checked by most teams. it is by all means no where near the status that alakazam and latios and gengar have and it makes no sense how you've made it out that gengar is simply something you should be "prepping" for so it won't be broken.

And lastly, There are more sets to gengar then just specs? I've proved that before this thread came that after gengar nasty plots, even if its life orb nplot or not, it has no switchins. And even if it is specs, It's checks can still have trouble with switching into gengar. Gengar is indeed different from other special attackers in the meta and the only pokemon that i see that even be close to be related to is Alakazam and Alakazam is obviously the more balanced one. Gengar has multiple sets and it's hard to scout which set gengar is without literally losing 2 pokemon. Gengar can also counteract scarfers that revenge kill it by also running scarf (and it's the fastest scarf user since any pokemon faster then gengar there's no real point in using scarf and if ur using scarf alakazam or smth to revenge kill gengar then thats honestly saying a lot by itself.)