point being: gl running keldeo/landorus on a rain team with ttar as your glue, sciz can actually pose a threat to more shit, doesnt get eaten by terrak, and weaviles great speed and utility make it a viable choice aswell. dont deny the legitimacy of options that have been proven to be just as good, if not better in some scenarios, than ttar
Still, Weavile and Scizor do not as comprehensively check Keldeo and Landorus's checks (mainly Latias) as much as Tyranitar does. Scizor still gets 2HKOed by Surf / HP Fire, while Weavile still gets OHKOed by Draco Meteor. Scizor can't do crap against Jellicent unless you're running SD Flying Gem, which means you're not running Pursuit any more. I'm not denying their legitimacy, I'm just saying that Tyranitar is better in most situations at trapping Latias or the other Lando/Keldeo checks. Yes, in SOME scenarios Scizor and Weavile are better, but you cannot deny that Tyranitar is hands down the best Pursuit user in the metagame, especially when it comes to Lando/Keldeo's checks.
id fucking love to know what pokemon wrecks as much shit in ou as landorus or keldeo
I'd like to see you define what you mean by "wrecks shit" first, but if you want a list of very powerful Pokemon in OU, you have pretty much all of the dragons, you have Terrakion, you have Jirachi, you have Breloom etc etc. Now before you go on a long rant on how each and every one of those Pokemon can be stopped, I'd like to point out that that would be a futile exercise because I can go ahead and tell you how Landorus and Keldeo are just as easily stopped and we'll get nowhere again. A lot of these Pokemon can "independently" take out a large portion of the metagame, while maybe not to same extent as Landorus and Keldeo, but "independently" all the same. Similarly, you can have something like Choice Scarf Salamence being able to "independently" sweep, but it was "dependent" on Magnezone to get rid of Skarmory for example. That's the point of teambuilding in the first place. You were mixing up what I meant by "independent" and "dependent". What I meant was that Landorus and Keldeo are "dependent" on Tyranitar, or whatever means of Pursuit you had to get rid of their checks. They couldn't get past their checks on their own. They needed external support to get rid of a Pokemon that stood in their way. Now consider the Pokemon we've actually banned. Something like Thundurus did not always need external support to get rid of a portion of its checks (in this case revenge killers) because it could paralyse them with Thunder Wave and he'd win 25% of the time. Garchomp did not always need external support because his checks would miss him 20% of the time. Landorus and Keldeo cannot do this. With the checks that everyone has been complaining about, Latias wins 100% of the time against them, minus crits. Jellicent wins very close to 100% of the time. So does Slowking, or whatever. Again, the question I'd like to ask before judging any Pokemon to be broken would be:
Can this Pokemon, with one set, plus or minus small variances, defeat most of the metagame, while having a way of getting past its counters/checks by itself? I don't think Landorus or Keldeo can satisfy that last criteria.
holy shit it's like youre making my points for me! genesect = landorus as far as how they deal with their checks goes (note im not saying counters cos im actually thinking about realistic matchup) since they both just take a dump on the majority of pokes and uturn out of the ones they cant. they both have an inherent power boost, good typing, high speed, great coverage, and access to uturn, the last of which fucking breaks them in my mind and the mind of many others if this thread has anything to say about it. send in latias? uturn to ttar/weavile. send in celebi? lol get boned. send in gyarados amoonguss fucking bronzong what have you, im just gonna uturn out to the perfect check to whatever shit you just sent in and youre now in a terrible position for the 2nd turn in a row. and god forbid if what i sent in is another uturner cause if thats the case youre down a poke already.
I was about to go straight onto this from the point above, so I'll talk about Genesect and U-turn now. I know you went into the "Genesect is hard countered by Heatran does not mean it's not broken" argument, but I'll rebutt that by comparing Landorus and Genesect's roles. On one hand, Genesect's job was as a pivot that did most of its damage via U-turn, plus an occasional revenge kill here and there. This, in effect, meant that Heatran was not a counter in the sense that it stopped what Genesect did. Heatran could not stop it U-turning or revenge killing things. Genesect's job was not one of a sweeper, unless you got into Rock Polish Genesect. On the other hand, Landorus's job IS one of a sweeper. It IS one of a powerful attacker, not a pivot. This is why you cannot apply the same arguments to Genesect as you can to Landorus.
Another thing to note here is that Landorus' U-turn is completely different from Genesect's. Landorus' U-turn is not very strong. Genesect's is. I remember calling you out on this in the Tornadus-T thread too. See Genesect did most of its damage through U-turn. Landorus does not. U-turn is not Landorus' spamming attack. Earth Power is. Genesect did the whole "I pull off free damage WHILE U-turning to a counter" while Landorus can't do both at the same time. This is not to mention that Landorus can't even go "oops Latias just switched into my Earth Power, bye U-turn" because it's killed by Latias before it can do so. Now you can say Landorus can U-turn as Latias comes in, but that's not the same as Genesect spamming U-turn BECAUSE that's his spam attack of choice. To U-turn out of Latias from Landorus-I meant you had to predict the Latias switch-in. That's not the case with Genesect, since U-turn was going to be your spam move of choice anyway. I can give a little of leeway to Tornadus-T because it COULD pull off U-turn most of the time due to how fast it was, but with Landorus and 331 top Speed? Nope. Just because a Pokemon has the option of U-turning out of something does not necessarily mean it's broken you know. You could potentially say the same about a boatload of Pokemon. Hey Azelf outspeeds and 2HKOs a huge proportion of the metagame, while being able to U-turn out of its counters, does that make it broken?
well in your previous post you said tyranitar was the same thing as politoed/ninetales so you tried to make it relevant and then got smacked so youre backing out of this point but ok
What? You're the one who's backing out of this argument. I was just pointing out what you presented was irrelevant. I'm seriously questioning whether you're even reading what I'm writing here. If not, please stop arguing. I was saying that Tyranitar's previous status as a good Pokemon and Politoed and Ninetales's previous status is irrelevant in the fact that they provide vital support to certain Pokemon, pushing them to an overpowered status. It boils down to a very simple concept, which I don't understand how it has eluded you. Maybe if I put it down into equations you'd understand.
Rain sweeper by itself =/= broken
Rain sweeper + rain = broken
Sun sweeper by itself =/= broken
Sun sweeper + sun = broken
From what I've seen you argue, is that rain/sun is broken.
Now, here's a condition that I'm setting:
- (in my previous paragraph) I defined a sweeper (to which Landorus fits) to be broken if it could sweep most of the metagame by itself while getting past its checks in some way (or made a check unreliable in defeating said sweeper by itself)
Now think about this one:
Landorus cannot get past its checks (Latias, Gyarados, Moltres, etc etc) by itself - See above condition
Hypothetically, Tyranitar can get rid Landorus's checks (it actually can't, but let's just pretend it can)
Therefore, Landorus + Tyranitar = Broken
So after all that, consistent with what you've been saying with rain/sun, which one is the broken part of that combination?
i think you need to look up the definition of integral...ttar is about as integral to that core as egg yolks are to an omelet, i personally think yolks are better than whites but some people like the whites better and hate the yolks and hell you can roll with either its still a fucking omelet.
Okay, I'll define my definition of integral here. It's basically... Can this combination function when you remove the part which I call "integral"? Can Landorus and Keldeo get past its counters without Tyranitar? No you can't. They're both defeated by Latias, or Gyarados, or Mantine, or whatever. Tyranitar is the one facilitating the sweeps coming from Landorus and Keldeo, just like how sun facilitates a sweep from Venusaur, for example.
that would be the first time someones reasoning has both a) been sound, and b) eluded me. too bad you dont fulfill either criteria. ttar isnt integral, ttar isnt even optimal a lot of the time. landorus/keldeo having checks doesnt mean they arent ban worthy: see every ban in the past two years. excadrill, blaziken, garchomp, tornadus-t, and genesect all had checks. some even had hard counters. yet all of them had ways of circumventing those checks/counters via support mechanisms that made them as broken as they are. yet just because genesect could uturn out of heatran and go to dugtrio doesnt mean dugtrio is the broken one, its clearly genesect that is creating the threat and necessitating the heatran to even be brought in, while dugtrio cleans up. same thing with landorus/keldeo: i send in landorus, you send in latias to check, i uturn to ttar, your lando check is now dead. do you honestly not see that youre just making my point for me over and over again?
your argument: holy shit ttar is so broken because it pursuit traps the few things that check the actual threats
my argument: the actual threats are broken and ttar just sweeps aside the few checks so the threats can sweep
take your pick voters!!
Again, you completely misunderstood my point. Anyway, my biggest concern about this who thing is that you HAVE to use Tyranitar or whatever Pursuit user to get rid of Landorus's checks. If you look at the Pokemon we've banned, they can get past their checks on their own. You cannot make the argument just because a Pokemon is broken while needing external support to sweep. With the exception of Excadrill, in which I've already addressed, none of the Pokemon that we've banned so far really needs external support to get past its checks. I'm not bringing Tyranitar into the question because I think Tyranitar itself is broken, but to highlight that you cannot judge a Pokemon's ability by its performance in a combo. It just has too many confounding errors and bias associated with it. How DO you know that Landorus is the one that's broken and not Tyranitar? I'll give you an example:
(Hypothetically) A study has showed that chronic alcoholics have a higher risk of developing a heart attack before the age of 60. However, it was later found that chronic alcoholics were more likely than control to smoke cigarettes, which also has a proven link to heart disease. Can you conclude that chronic alcoholism leads to heart disease?
Now, I know that analogy is not strictly relevant to our topic of Landorus, but the point I want you to take from this is that when you judge a Pokemon in combination, you introduce all sorts of bias and confounding factors that limits your ability to make an informed decision about a Pokemon's true broken state. If you were to judge Landorus's (or Keldeo's, or any other suspect), you should look at it by itself. Otherwise, you must adjust for potential biases by looking at stuff like opportunity cost, like what I did with Excadrill.
