np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[SlimMan]

nitpick for X5Dragon

Edit2: Banning history of BW would be accurately more like this:

Swift Swim + Drizzle Ban
SV Chomp
Blaziken
Excadrill
Thundrus-I
Deo-S
Genesect

A more accurate order is this:
Initial banlist
then Darkrai/Skymin/Deoxys-A/Deoxys-N/Moody
then Drizzle+SwSw/Manaphy
then Blaziken/Evasion items
then Garchomp
then Thundurus/Excadrill
then Deoxys-S
then Evasion abilities/Chomp freed
then Kyurem-B freed
then Genesect

Toxicroak can't switch into Keldeo; it's 2HKO'd by Specs HP anything neutral to it. And Gliscor will never be 2HKO'd by Band Terrakion if it has protect.

Actually, I just ran a calc.
Specs Keldeo HP-whatever-neutral vs. Shurtugal's Toxicroak: 44%-51.9%
With Leftovers, Toxicroak avoids a 2HKO. Let alone the healing from Dry Skin.

nitpick for Wizarus

Also, if Gliscor is coming in for the first time, then Poison Heal won't heal the first turn. With Protect, Poison Heal would counter SR damage the second turn. And then Band Terrakion has a small chance to KO the third turn with another Stone Edge. Most of the time, you're right about Gliscor. I was just pointing out that in some circumstances, Terrakion can come out on top.

 

[Schpoonman]

I've tried using manual weather and have had very little success with them. With the way the metagame has developed, sometimes taking a single move out of a Pokémon's repertoire is enough to undo you, especially if you end up playing the same weather as your trigger.

 

[Gary]

Ahhh finally Torn-T gets his own suspect test! Honestly, even though under Rain Torn-T is a bitch, he's not entirely broken. In rain, he functions as an extreme wall breaker that out speeds half the OU tier. However, outside of Rain Torn-T functions as a great offensive pivot that like Kingdra can be used as a late game sweeper with access to Rain Dance.

Keldeo however, I'm quite confused as to why he's being tested. Although in Rain his specs set is quite powerful, Jellicent and Latias wall the set quite comfortably, and unlike Tornadus-T's LO set, Keldeo can switch his moves around, and can easily be locked in.

All in all, I feel that both Keldeo and Torn-T in Rain are quite powerful, and a team ALWAYS needs to watch out for them. However outside of rain, both of them function completely differently as Revenge killers and sweepers. Both are far from broken outside of Rain, and Torn-T outside of Rain becomes a lot less useful. Keldeo however, functions like a Special Terrakion. I think both should stay in OU, even if Rain remains present in the future.

 

[Stone RG]

keldeo on Suspect...umm, shouldve thought about it i guess.

IMO, its the single best scarfer in the OU tier, and bri did make a very good point (yet obvious) when he said that almost every counter it has, gets pursuit-trapped. And notes, im not even talking about rain Keldy, im talking about the pony in general. The single reason you run Keldeo on your sand team (a very popularized strategy) is so it can be with its best buddy: Choice Band Tyranitar, which destroys every damn ''counter'' you find for the pony bar Toxicroak, which still, is a subpar and weak pokemon, easy to deal with to an extent.

And well, in rain, Keldeo suddenly is turned into machine of pure destruction. Specs has a power comparable to that of King Kyogre, Scarf still holds the title of the best late game sweeper in the meta. Im not gonna mention CM sets becuase imo, theyre a waste of the pony's potential, Keldeo needs as much turns as it can to wreak havok.

Now, on the subject of rain, Big Bird is probably much more prone to a ban than Keldeo is becuase of 3 factors it doesnt have: a trolly speed tier, Regenerator, and Flying STAB. What i find most hard to deal with when facing Torn is its legendary fast U-turn, as we all know, there is no offensive counter to the bird, so we have to count on defensive counters, which are outspaced, and give the opponent momentum. A very common situation when facing Big Bird with a Sand team (i choose sand because its the 2nd most used weather) is: Torn being against your Landorus, you switch to your SpDef rotom, you take 30% from Huricane, without taking into factor rocks, then Torn will Uturn, you either Pain Split or Volt switch, lets say in the switch to ferrothorn, the former gives the opponent free hazards, the latter leaves vulnerable when Bird comes back in.

That is just a generic example of what happens to a LOT of teams when Big bird comes in safely, but thats besides the point: Torn T makes Rain very unhealthy for the metagame, because, of the ease that rain maintains its weather up, it gives MASSIVE advantage to the rain user. Also, did i mention if you lead with Torn against HO, youre mindfucking your opponent? If he Magic Coats, Hurricane 2HKOs, and if he doesnt, he can get taunted, yea, quite a more sure Uber than Keldeo (but still, the thing overpowers rain and even SAND, hello?).

 

[Nyara]

^^^ Try Kabutops with Sandstorm if you're still interesed, he can setup it against almost anything that have a Drizzle Team, incluiding Politoed, gain extra special defense, deal some extra damage, and you can use Weak Armor in order to regain the lost of speed (if that's important, otherwise, just use Swift Swim in order to have extra advantage against Drizzle Teams), and Kabutops don't miss to much to use one move in order to do it. He's a nice Pokémon to use against Sunny Day teams and Hail teams and at some degree against Sandstorm teams, too. If Sand Teams are a concern, Kabutops can also employ Hail + Blizzard, Kabutops Special Attack is horrible, but he can still deal a huge damage against slower Grass/Ground/Physical Walls with it (or you can just spend on some EV's for special attack and make him a mixed sweeper), it's still not a very good option unless you fear Sand Teams or the Grass-Type abussers of Sunny Day. This also helps Kabutops to deal with Focus Sash/Sturdy (if Hail is used) users better.

Anyway, I guess I'll try later a team with Keldeo or just do more battles in order to face it to have an opinion about him.

 

[Wizarus]

nitpick for X5Dragon

A more accurate order is this:
Initial banlist
then Darkrai/Skymin/Deoxys-A/Deoxys-N/Moody
then Drizzle+SwSw/Manaphy
then Blaziken/Evasion items
then Garchomp
then Thundurus/Excadrill
then Deoxys-S
then Evasion abilities/Chomp freed
then Kyurem-B freed
then Genesect

Actually, I just ran a calc.
Specs Keldeo HP-whatever-neutral vs. Shurtugal's Toxicroak: 44%-51.9%
With Leftovers, Toxicroak avoids a 2HKO. Let alone the healing from Dry Skin.

nitpick for Wizarus

Also, if Gliscor is coming in for the first time, then Poison Heal won't heal the first turn. With Protect, Poison Heal would counter SR damage the second turn. And then Band Terrakion has a small chance to KO the third turn with another Stone Edge. Most of the time, you're right about Gliscor. I was just pointing out that in some circumstances, Terrakion can come out on top.

Thanks for correcting me. Well Drain Punch coming from that Toxicroak won't even 2HKO Keldeo, so it can't beat Keldeo if it switches into HP.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

Well I feel tornadus-t is massively overpowered, and I know a lot of people share this view with me, so I'll focus on keldeo instead.

While it does have a lot of checks, and even some counters, these pokes usually overlap, so you can only use one on a team. This shouldn't be an issue, but they are all very easily exploited by tornadus-t on rain. The worst part though, is that almost every keldeo check is smashed by ttar. Latias, latios, jellicent, starmie, rpserade can all be pursuit trapped, while cb tar can switch in on an amoongus that already used spore and pursuit for a massive chunk of damage or fire off a stone edge, always ohking 252/0 amoongus with stealth rock and sandstorm. TTar can also put tentacruel in a tough position, as long as you avoid the scald burn. TTar + Keldeo is a better combo than gene + dug or tornado + dug, which many people say are broken.

After keldeo's checks have been eliminated, it is extremely easy for scarf keldeo to sweep. It doesn't even need much prior damage done to the other team, as it can ohko almost every offensive pokemon with sr down alone. Even if keldeo can't sweep for whatever reason (it almost always can), it is still a very useful utility scarfer, revenging most set up pokemon. I'm still not convinced either way for keldeo, but I'm kind of leaning towards voting it uber once I hit reqs.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I doubt that banning Tornadus-T alone would make that much of a difference; it's a slap on the wrist, if anything. Its incarnate form lacks its bells and whistles, sure, but Tornadus-I is still capable of spamming fast and powerful Hurricanes.

And yet, Tornadus was low-tier OU in BW1. Nothing changed in its favor, except for Superpower (20% stronger than Hammer Arm) and Heat Wave (...in rain).

Another thing I don't like is team preview in the OU metagame. In such a fast meta, the thing that you lead with is crucial. If you choose the wrong lead, you are often in an instantly worse position because your opponent gets a free turn to do whatever he/she wants while you are forced to switch out. In tiers that are not quite so fast-paced, team preview is fine, but I don't think it's healthy at all here.

Isn't it good that we have it, then? Without Team Preview, wouldn't bad lead matchups be a much worse thing to deal with?

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Well, this is a really interesting suspect test. I always find it interesting to look at all the things Drizzle has resulted in the ban of (although, arguably, Thundurus and Manaphy would've gotten banned anyway).

In regards to Keldeo, he's an excellent Pokemon, but I hesitate to call him broken, simply because he doesn't really rise above and beyond the rest of the tier in my mind. He's the gold standard of OU offense, but he doesn't transcend it. After all, Terrakion has existed for quite sometime as the premier OU physical beatstick, and with the re-release of pinch berries, his SubSalac set is an absolute monster, but he's still not banworthy. He's just another sign of what the OU metagame has become -- a whole bunch of offensive powerhouses trying to out-murder each other. Keldeo's in the same boat; he's absolute hell to deal with, but no more so than some other OU 'mons.

Tornadus-T, on the other hand, can fuck off and die. His only limiting qualities are modest offensive stats and moderate frailty, but he's fast enough that he doesn't give a fuck. Hurricane will still maul anything unfortunate enough to not be named Jirachi, and simply switching in an opposing weather inducer isn't enough to beat him, as he can simply go for the Hurricane anyway, accept whatever damage he may or may not get, than either:
A) U-turn off the opposing Pokemon's face and bring out Politoed, who beats Tyranitar and Ninetales in the rain,
or
B) If the opposing Pokemon is Tyranitar, he can just Superpower his ugly, stupid face in.
Stealth Rock, Life Orb recoil and sandstorm damage are all completely meaningless to Torn-T, as Regenerator means he can just bounce in and out as many times as it takes to get his health back, and since base 121 Speed is, as we all already know, absolute bullshit, it's not that hard to do.

Oh, and fuck that argument that says "IF WE BAN TORNADUS-T, TORNADUS-I WILL JUST COME BACK AND BE BROKEN ALL OVER AGAIN." Tornadus-I doesn't have regenerator, and Tornadus-I gets revenge killed by Starmie, Alakazam, and Scarf TTar. Tornadus-T does, and Tornadus-T doesn't.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Wait, so there isn't a different ladder like we used to have back in the days? It's just the current ladder that one has to get a 2000 deviation and a Glicko2 deviation of 55 or lower? Interesting

Also at a first glance I don't believe that Tornadus-T nor Keldeo are broken. I just think they're very good Pokemon, they both have their fair share of checks that are very good Pokemon themselves. But then again I'm just a scrub, so maybe I'm playing the wrong people or something.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

And yet, Tornadus was low-tier OU in BW1. Nothing changed in its favor, except for Superpower (20% stronger than Hammer Arm) and Heat Wave (...in rain).

Tornadus-I is stronger. But as I said, Tornadus-T is bulkier, faster, and has Regenerator. Even with Superpower added to the mix, I doubt that Tornadus-I would be as dominant as its Therian form if the latter was banned, because of the flaws appointed above. What Tornadus-T lacks in power, it has on speed, versatility, and the fact that it doesn't actually take Stealth Rock damage at all, if you consider that Regenerator can heal all SR damage, and that Tornadus-T is immune to Spikes. And its Hurricane is still very powerful, so powerful that simply resisting Flying is not sufficient. Tornadus-T is there to prove that most Flying resistors are too frail to take repeated Hurricanes.

RabidChipmunk, I think that you mean: "Tornadus-I doesn't have regenerator, and Tornadus-I get's revenge killed by Starmie, Alakazam, and Scarf TTar. Tornadus-I does, and Tornadus-T doesn't."

 

[RabidChipmunk]

RabidChipmunk, I think that you mean: "Tornadus-I doesn't have regenerator, and Tornadus-I get's revenge killed by Starmie, Alakazam, and Scarf TTar. Tornadus-I does, and Tornadus-T doesn't."

I meant it in the sense of "Tornadus-T does (have regenerator) and Tornadus-T doesn't (get revenge killed by blah blah blah). My words have not been eloquent today.

 

[alexwolf]

I see many people stating this here and there, so i feel the need to clear this wrong impression. Choice Band Terrakion does have a true OU counter, which is 252 HP / 252 Def + Gliscor, aka the defensive set that stall teams use (yeah the 72 Spe EVs are totally worthless on the defensive set). Check this calc if you don't believe me: 42.65 - 50.28%, 5.08% chance to 2HKO after SR. Add to this that SE hits twice only 64% of the time and you will see that Gliscor will be 2HKOed 3.2% of the time after SR. That's a counter in my book! Gliscor can then either PP stall SE with Roost (which defensive sets should carry contrary to common belief), or use Protect to surely avoid the 2HKO.

I would also like to defend the case of SpD Zapdos and SpD Rotom-W a bit, as SJCrew said that they are niche Pokemon, used only because Torn-T is in OU. First of all i would like to remind to everyone that Hurricane spam is not something new to the OU meta, as before BW2 came out, Torn-I was pretty popular as well, and a very dangerous Pokemon to face under rain. Of 'course it wasn't as dominating as Torn-T, but it still was a big offensive threat to prepare for. Furthermore SpD Rotom-W checks most Rain offense teams out there, which are mostly specially based, being able to switch into shit such as Specs Politoed, LO Starmie, and Scarf Keldeo in rain, which an offensive variant wouldn't be able to do. Similarly SpD Zapdos can deal as well with a multitude of threats except from Torn-T. Torn-I (which as i said again would be a threat to prepare for if Torn-T left), any CM Jirachi, any Scizor, CM Latias, NP Celebi, CM Reuniclus, and Venusaur are some of the threats that Zapdos can stop dead in their tracks. Unlike Jirachi, Zapdos can phaze, and cannot be trapped by Dugtrio, as well as having different weaknesses and resistances, and finally Heat Wave and Tbolt, meaning it isn't set-up bait against any Steel-type. Oh and one turn recovery which is super useful.

So while Torn-T is certainly a big reason to why SpD Rotom-W and Zapdos are more popular than ever, let's not underrate those guys and their roles, as they are definitely solid Pokemon that would see respectable usage even without Torn-T in OU. Don't forget guys that Torn-I still exists, and is very fucking good, just not absolutely fucking good, and thus outclassed right now.

 

[Joeyboy]

So I've seen this argument twice while just glancing over the thread. Something along the lines of "tornadus-t is broken because it makes you require a hurricane switch-in." This doesn't really hold any ground as an argument, you having a hurricane resist just means you have a better team for the metagame. All teams need dragon resists, does that make dragons über? All teams need water resists does that make them über? No of course not.

Now I realize these were probably quick little quips but I thought I should say something as I was aware of it without really even paying attention.

 

[alamaster]

The problem is that Tornadus-T only has 2 common counters: Rotom-W and Jirachi. Even those can get Confusion haxed and still lose. I don't want to have to run one of those if I want my team to be viable in the tier!

 

[alexwolf]

Well ala you don't. I have run countless offensive teams without Jirachi or SpD Rotom-W, and Torn-T still wasn't an issue. Yeah it could kill one Pokemon usually, but then i would gain momentum and sometimes sweep with my CB Scizor / SD Scizor / Weavile / boosting Thund-T / SubSD Terrakion. Btw do you guys know that Torn-T is the perfect Pokemon to set-up against with SubSD Salac Berry Terrakion, one of the most dangerous sweepers in OU? Neither Hurricane nor Superpower can OHKO a healthy Terrakion, allowing you to set-up an SD and go to town as you are guaranteed to go to Salac Berry activation range. Of 'course you must do so after priority users are eliminated, but it still means that after every kill that Torn-T makes, Terrakion can threaten with a counter-sweep.

 

[flea]

Yeah. I don't personally think that Tornadus is broken in this meta though. It is certainly a top-tier threat that can tear apart poorly made teams with ease, but it is hard-countered by one of the best and most-used pokemon in the meta, is very dependent on rain and is not quite bulky enough or with a good enough defensive typing to avoid getting revenged by most commonly-used scarfers. It's very good, but most problems with it can be solved by good teambuilding and smart plays/switches, which is really what competitive pokemon is all about.

 

[nyttyn]

Tornadus-T also has the issue of being able to play around a wholelot of shit (like the flat blobs) without sacrifing anything in return. Like, really. Lots of special types have to give up accuracy and use Focus Miss. He can just use Superpower. Sure, it won't be quite as strong as focus miss, but it's also attacking on the physical spectrum, which is huuuge. Plus his base attack stat is quite nice as well.

Just has too much imo.

 

[yee]

I actually am very fond of specially defensive Skarmory as a check to Tornadus-T (and only the therian) and acknowledge that Rotom-W / Zapdos hard counter but Torn-T is so obviously over the line I don't know how to help anyone who doesn't see it. Not only is it by miles the best pokemon in OU, it also doesn't have any counters that actually stand up to it in the long run and importantly beats Scarftar and the million things that conveniently outruns. Keldeo I wouldn't ban because it's not obviously broken, there is a fairly compelling argument that all of its good checks are removed by TTar but that's also absolutely true of Rotom-W. However, there are so many bad arguments for both sides in here I hope I can avoid to ever open this thread again.

 

[alamaster]

Well ala you don't. I have run countless offensive teams without Jirachi or SpD Rotom-W, and Torn-T still wasn't an issue. Yeah it could kill one Pokemon usually, but then i would gain momentum and sometimes sweep with my CB Scizor / SD Scizor / Weavile / boosting Thund-T / SubSD Terrakion. Btw do you guys know that Torn-T is the perfect Pokemon to set-up against with SubSD Salac Berry Terrakion, one of the most dangerous sweepers in OU? Neither Hurricane nor Superpower can OHKO a healthy Terrakion, allowing you to set-up an SD and go to town as you are guaranteed to go to Salac Berry activation range. Of 'course you must do so after priority users are eliminated, but it still means that after every kill that Torn-T makes, Terrakion can threaten with a counter-sweep.

Just wanted to say that Superpower is non existent on most Tornadus-T sets, and Focus Blast OHKOs easily.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Just wanted to say that Superpower is non existent on most Tornadus-T sets, and Focus Blast OHKOs easily.

Not on sandstorm:

252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Focus Blast in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 67% - 80% (220 - 262 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

In fact, Focus Blast on sandstorm has a great chance of leaving Terrakion at Salac Berry range, which could be very dangerous. However, outside sand, Focus Blast is really an easy OHKO (even without Stealth Rock). But Superpower is pretty common in fact, and it can never OHKO a healthy Terrakion. Although if Terrakion ever switches on Hurricane, it can be OHKOed by Superpower (Hurricane doesn't activate Salac Berry), not that someone would be stupid enough to do this.

 

[alexwolf]

ala from my experience Superpower is the only Fighting move that the LO set uses, while Focus Blast is the Fighting move of choice for the Specs set. Btw i was talking about LO Torn-T, which is its best set imo, as if you are locked into Hurricane much more Pokemon are capable of tanking hits from you, such as Heatran and Tyranitar, the latter of which can even KO you with Pursuit as you flee. Not to mention that Specs Torn-T can't get past the blobs, and thus stall teams.

 

[alamaster]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about Life Orb. I barely see it.

 

[Lavos]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about Life Orb. I barely see it.

Specs has definitely become the more common set in my experience. Life Orb is rarely seen. Neither set is better, per se, as they both have their merits. I think the reason Specs is what I've found to be more common is that it takes more prediction to pull off well, but it's also better when you do pull off your predictions, so it's often used by a higher skill level of player than the Life Orb set. Not saying LO is bad by any means, it's a fantastic stallbreaker...but there's hardly any stall around these days, and other more defensive Pokemon function as better stallbreakers anyways (Jellicent, Mew, etc). The difference between Specs damage and LO damage is enough to change the course of a battle, though. For example, a LO Hurricane from Torn-T on standard Latios after rocks will (almost?) never OHKO. However, a Specs Hurricane will (always?) OHKO after rocks (sorry no calc on me atm but that's what I know from experience). That can sometimes be a huge difference maker. Other important factors include being able to 3HKO Specially Defensive Rotom-W after rocks, even locked into Hurricane. Get off some early damage on Rotom, then send in Specs Torn-T and the opponent is forced to lose something to it. I can certainly understand the argument for going LO > Specs (more versatility, easier to use) but for now I'll stick with Specs as my preferred set.

The worst part about Tornadus-T is that it can easily outlive its counters. All Tornadus-T has to do is switch out to a counter to your counter (counterception?) and keep all of the momentum. SpD Rotom-W, Jirachi, and SpD Zapdos can't switch into Hurricanes consistently. Jirachi has the best chance of living due to lack of a SR weakness + Wish, but it can't really do anything back to Tornadus-T. The bird can just U-Turn out (activating regenerator) and switch to a counter like Ferrothorn. Players have to go out of their way to find a way to take out Tornadus-T.

Second smartest guy with under 5 posts I've ever met.

 

[Rayland]

The worst part about Tornadus-T is that it can easily outlive its counters. All Tornadus-T has to do is switch out to a counter to your counter (counterception?) and keep all of the momentum. SpD Rotom-W, Jirachi, and SpD Zapdos can't switch into Hurricanes consistently. Jirachi has the best chance of living due to lack of a SR weakness + Wish, but it can't really do anything back to Tornadus-T. The bird can just U-Turn out (activating regenerator) and switch to a counter like Ferrothorn. Players have to go out of their way to find a way to take out Tornadus-T.