Baton Pass works with Perish Song, as long as you don't mindlessly spam Perish Song every time your force something out. In the rare case that you will Perish Song something just switch out manually. It's a small price to pay for being able to escape BandTar and Band Scizor.Try to Baton Pass a Perish Song, and you will be put on a hard time. So, Baton Pass only works well if you are using Thunder Wave. I sincerely prefer Perish Song since it deters things like Sheer Force Landorus.
As for Amoongus, it's 2HKOed by both Crunch and Stone Edge. The latter can even OHKO with a little of prior damage.
As for Toxicroak, yeah, it unfortunately defeats Tyranitar, so it's a counter to the combination of Keldeo + Tyranitar. However, this is simply to solve with a Ground- or Psychic-type partner like Hippowdon, Landorus, Celebi, or Lati@s.
You didn't explained why Celebi works well on sand, or what sun have to compensate the fact that it doesn't get 100% accurate moves like Hurricane or Thunder.I don't get why you quoted me, because that's pretty much what I said...? Unless I'm missing something.
You didn't mentioned it, but alexwolf did. Although I agree that Giga Drain or Psychic is sufficient to deal with Keldeo. Yes, Baton Pass escapes from Pursuit, but if you use it with Perish Song, you have to switch out manually any time you want to use Perish Song, OR be forced to lose momentum. U-Turn works just as well as Baton Pass if you have good prediction skills.but you don't need to run perish song celebi to hard-core wall keldeo, you just need giga drain. its not like i have to run perish, or even baton pass. its all things celebi can do, but it doesn't have to run those moves at all either. U-turn is just as potent, u-turing on the TTar switch in and leaf storm is also powerful. I don't get why you keep bringing up Perish when I only mentioned BP. U-turn escapes if it turns before Tar comes in so it also works.
This may be true for the Scarf Keldeo, but not for the Specs Keldeo. After Tyranitar traps and defeat all Keldeo's counters, Keldeo can spam powerful Hydro Pumps that are still very powerful even without rain. While it's true that Keldeo will be outsped by things like Tornadus-T, none of those revenge killers can actually switch-in, as very few are likely to survive Hydro Pump. Although I agree that Hydro Pump is like an atomic bomb under rain.the biggest problem with keldeo that i've seen is that it wants ttar for pursuit support (ttar is superior to scizor in terms of pursuit support), but it also wants rain so that it can spam an incredibly strong hydro pump. the biggest thing about it that could make it broken is the ease on which you can damage its counters with pursuit support - for example, if you run scarf keldeo + scizor then any player that tries to check keldeo with latias will almost always lose.
See, I don't like this. Pro-Uber people have frequently mentioned that Dugtrio/Magnezone can easily eliminate Jirachi (who Tornadus does NOT wear down over the course of a match due to Wish), and then they say this. I don't mean to point you out Shurtugal, because I don't remember which individual people said what, I am making generalizations about your side of the argument.So does Latias and Celebi, but people think that Banded Tyranitar makes it broken, which is a shitty arguement imo because I could just as easily predict the double switch and go into Duggy or SubSalac Terrakion or Double Dance Landy-T or w/e as easily as my opponent can try to trap me.
Basically, see what I wrote above. If this is the case, then I never want to hear about Dugtrio/Magnezone trapping a Jirachi again. I also want to start hearing more about playing around Tornadus, because your post implies to me that clearly that's a valid option against offensive juggernauts. Again, not picking on you Shurt, just the sweeping statements I've seen from Pro-Uber people.Banded Tyranitar is a shitty argument since both players can play well enough around it.
>Says that Keldeo is frailhowever, keldeo is weak in the sense that it is frail and that its individual moves are easily resisted
Humbly requesting that before posting in this thread, all users are educated on what the word "broken" means in competitive gaming.Latias is bottom OU (seriously, the sub CM is broke as hell).
Not sure why Rotom-W even came up there, because I don't think I ever mentioned it. However, you have a fair point. In the same vein as how Garchomp could beat most of its checks on a 20% chance, Tornadus can beat most of its checks on a 15% chance. Frankly though, I don't think this pushes Tornadus-T over the edge because Sand Veil worked against everything, whilst Hurricane's confusion only works against targets he has hit with Hurricane (ie not revenge-killers, see two paragraphs down).The fact that Torn-T gets confusion hax allows it to muscle through counters like sand veil for Garchomp, hence Torn-T beating its counters. Also, U-turn + Sr damage + Hurricane makes Wash not bulky enough to switch into another cane unless it can somehow pain split. However, that's 1v1. Latias vs Keledo is borked since Latias always wins. This is not the case for Torn-T, which can confuse muscle his (probably only) counter on the opposition and clear sweep.
The only exception is Zappy, which smogon has cleared up as too gimmicky to consider.
And also -- double switches won't work on Torn-T because of Regenerator.
As for screenshot: ctrl + prnt scrn should do it, paste into paint and upload as a picture on online sharing like photobucket.
Protect would work in that case. But Protect can literally do that for almost any offensive Pokemon who is checked by Scarfers. Tornadus is a great user of Protect, but no better of a user than something like Terrakion. Nothing sets it apart from the pack in that regard, which is why I generally ignore Protect. Also, I can't resist the urge to say that if it carries Protect then Chansey beats it. But just pretend I did resist the urge to say it, alright?Because Tornadus-T used Protect on Keldeo. Too many options to beat its checks imo.
As for regenerator, that's how it "outlives" it's counters and checks, thus making double switches, in a way, a double-edged sword.
I was thinking that you would double-switch out of a Scarfer when Torn-T can't U-Turn, or you would double-switch into Tornadus in the first place.That's why I said it was a double edged sword because of Reg. The switch still gets a bad position but Torn heals. Also, Torn will usually U-Turn > Double Switch, grabbing momentum. Also, Blissey and Chansey are kinda ass.... but please forget I had the urge to say that :)
Eh, I never thought double-boosting Thundurus-T was much good. I don't see it sweeping the average team without Focus Blast and HP Ice. Although I'm sure there are many teams out there which it could sweep without one or the other.Also, Protect Terrakion was a legitimate set when introduced in BW1, but how many Pokemon can use it as good as Rak and Torn besides stall Pokemon? Like zero imo, cause take double dance Thundy-T. It's RK'ed if you get it on one boost, but protect waste coverage whereas TornT has a free fourth slot to deal with all if its checks.
I assume we're still talking about LO Tornadus in which case "Hurricane range" is about 50% for Jirachi... I think that if hazards alone are able to take Jirachi down to 50%, then it's either a bad team matchup or the Jirachi player doesn't know how to use double-switches.Also, if Jira gets worn down to wear down the counter, than the Jira counter did its job imo..., brought it down to Hurricane range :[
Because the Risk / Reward vs Tornadus is too high a price to pay. Because bringing in Breloom to tank a possible U-Turn is far too risky when it could very easily eat a Hurricane when you could have simply brought in your Hurricane resist. I am 2 tired to really go into this, and I already brought up Risk / Reward so many times in this thread its not even funny but this is the situation Tornadus-t puts you into, because it is utterly risk free to spam Hurricane, especially when you have regenerator to heal yourself. It is mindlessly easy, click Hurricane and U-Turn out, risk free, while the pressure is on the guy playing against Tornadus having to predict the Hurricane, having to predict the U-Turn (if it wants to avoid bringing in Jirachi time and time again. Again, I went through this many times before but thats why people struggle to play around Tornadus, which it doesn't really lose anything from just switching out, unlike most other pokemon in OU.Why do I ALWAYS have to switch in my Jirachi or Rotom-W on a Hurricane, get U-Turned on the next turn, and be facing a counter then? I wonder why I can play around every threat except Tornadus-T.
That is an elegant explanation of why Tornadus T is broken on a micro level. I tend to focus on why Tornadus T is broken on the macro level. In particular, his synergy with other rain sweepers. Absent Tornadus T, pokes like Celebi and Ferrothorn would do an excellent job of taking the rain boosted surfs and 100% accurate Thunders that drizzle teams spam. However, Tornadus T's hurricane gives rain a completely different angle from which to attack. This gives rain teams a huge edge over other playstyles, as it is difficult to build a core that can deal with all of the rain sweepers while preserving team synergy (other than a rain team of your own that includes jirachi to take hurricanes).Because the Risk / Reward vs Tornadus is too high a price to pay. Because bringing in Breloom to tank a possible U-Turn is far too risky when it could very easily eat a Hurricane when you could have simply brought in your Hurricane resist. I am 2 tired to really go into this, and I already brought up Risk / Reward so many times in this thread its not even funny but this is the situation Tornadus-t puts you into, because it is utterly risk free to spam Hurricane, especially when you have regenerator to heal yourself. It is mindlessly easy, click Hurricane and U-Turn out, risk free, while the pressure is on the guy playing against Tornadus having to predict the Hurricane, having to predict the U-Turn (if it wants to avoid bringing in Jirachi time and time again. Again, I went through this many times before but thats why people struggle to play around Tornadus, which it doesn't really lose anything from just switching out, unlike most other pokemon in OU.
Good night