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np Doubles OU Stage 1.5 - Leavin on a Jet Plane

Pwnemon said:
yea once i see someone running all three of ampharos camerupt and mawile on the same team i'll make sure to eq spam their ass into oblivion

edit: because laga is convinced this can be misinterpreted: tr teams are only running one of those at a time. One ground weak is not going to suddenly turn your team into shit. Besides, TR always has cress which beats lando anyways.
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You misunderstand my post you can use any of the three as your mega... this isnt VGC :/ you only have one mega, regular mawile, ampharos, and camerupt all stink. My point is you can run sub aegislash and think your safe vs trick room mawile, but then you play a team has camerupt not mawile so then you're in trouble - big trouble - bananas if you say.

Eminem - rap god, just like youngjake
 
Pane said:
I don't really care about the salamencite ban but i think it's a mistake, Megamence was the only new mega capable of "refreshing" the metagame and now basically we are playing XY again.
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I don't quite agree. While we only got a few more megas, movesets have definitely changed. The only Heatran I see now is Shuca Berry 3 attacks: Heatwave, EP, and flash cannon. Subtran is apparently extinct.
 
SubTran disappearing was largely a result of Mega Salamence; Heatran was a decent roadblock to the DD sets with one attack (or dual STAB), but Sub Heatran has nothing it can use to actually hit Mence. With that gone and the rise of Mega Diancie, things that SubTran can't hit neutrally will be largely on the decline.
 
Pane said:
Sub spread spam is a refined technique and you should not expect many people to use that. You clearly have never heard about subterrakion, subsylveon or subchomp. The reason you don't see many of them is mainly because many players don't know the power of substitute and they don't know when to sub and it's easier to use shucka berry and just blame hax if you get crited.

This being said all i see are the same old teams like kanga/landorus/keldeo/amoongus/thundurus/heatran/rotom/talonflame with the same old set maybe flash cannon thundy or steal wings talon for a surprice kill on megadiancie. Overused mons and sets will basically remain the same imo.

Of course if we ban something something else will become more viable but it's a never ending cycle.
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I've seen Sub Terrakion and made a fairly successful team with Sub Mega Garchomp (link in my signature), but Sub Sylveon sounds bad. Sylveon is pretty reliant on the damage boost from Choice Specs to do the damage it does; without Specs you're barely a threat, especially because your coverage is pitifully weak in comparison to Hyper Voice.

On the second point: Mega Diancie kind of shits on a bunch of standard archetypes so that probably won't last long ;)

on an unrelated note I'm convinced you and Amy Sorel are the same user
 
Things that aren't specs on Sylveon are pretty much only used because people expect you to be specs, not because they are necessarily the most viable items on Sylveon.

Also mega camel is probably the most underrated new mega, it's insanely strong with manual sun + solar beam. Diancie is easily the most threatening mega after kang now that mence is gone, in some situations it is probably better given how prepared everyone is for kang
 
People keep talking about mega camerupt, but for some reason I'm having a hard time using it. I've been laddering a lot with a trick room team, and while I had mega camerupt on it at first, I ended up removing it for a different mega and have had a lot more success in battling. I dunno, it just seems hard to use without Trick Room up, whereas other pokes I could play around with with TR down. Maybe I'm not getting something? I've only faced one other MegaRupt, but my team pretty much hard countered theirs so it wasn't really a fair test.
 
KyleCole said:
Things that aren't specs on Sylveon are pretty much only used because people expect you to be specs, not because they are necessarily the most viable items on Sylveon.

Also mega camel is probably the most underrated new mega, it's insanely strong with manual sun + solar beam. Diancie is easily the most threatening mega after kang now that mence is gone, in some situations it is probably better given how prepared everyone is for kang
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Quick little blurb about this I've used sunny day cress with tr alongside it and it works pretty well.
 
Haunted.Shadow said:
What does everyone think about mega gardevoir? I run a set of Hyper Voice+Psyshock+Taunt+Protect and it's working pretty well for me.
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Never used it but it seems like a wasted Mega when Sylveon is around. Psyshock doesn't add much coverage outside of Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur has not been used much. It also has decent base speed but 100 isn't that great in doubles.

I think the use of mega metagross really hinders it but I think it could be a shut down TR mon with Taunt.
 
Its not that common, but that doesn't mean it isn't good. Hyper voice still hits like a freight train, and it is much faster than sylveon. But still Megagross...
 
koolkranny said:
Its not that common, but that doesn't mean it isn't good. Hyper voice still hits like a freight train, and it is much faster than sylveon. But still Megagross...
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I find that Mega Voir pairs well with Landorus-Therian, especially the set posted above, as even if Landy fails to lower Metagross's Attack, Voir has a partner to fall back on to get Metagross out of the way. but then, team coverage is what makes anything in Doubles successful so it's not fair to say that Metagross is necessarily Gardevoir's bane.
 
I'd rather see a Mega Diancie test and a Kyurem-B test first, and I don't want us to test Kyurem-B at all...

There's no reason to test Ubers drops if we have Pokemon already in the tier that would be a better use of our time to test.
 
We could test them, but I think "no ban" would be an overwhelming majority.

Mega Diancie
Ok, it's awesome, has the best spread move, but it has some things going against it. First, the turn in which it mega transforms is very dangerous. It's a turn in which it is both slow and "frail", having 50 speed on regular forme and then 50/110/110 defenses, which ain't precisely low but you are getting some damage there. You kinda need to mega evo + Protect., which is predictable and opens hole for opportunity.

It's weak to spread moves Earthquake, which is everywhere, Muddy Water, which sees some use (and could see more tbh), and Surf (why are you using Surf). Earth Power from Heatran, that's used a lot. There's Bullet Punches which simply obliterate it. To use Mega Diancie, you need your team to clean up first. And cleaning up isn't as easy as it seems usually. Ok, give a team that doesn't have any of those and mega diancie can basically win the battle spamming its signature move, but that's true of a lot of Pokémon.

Kyurem-B
Isn't this kinda a jack of all, master of none? It doesn't have any good physical STAB. Dragon Claw sucks. The CB set is decent, but it's kinda ruined by the everpresent Will-o-Wisp (and it can't OHKO Rotom) and intimidate spam everywhere. Scarf set, ok, it's good, you get that lando KO, but it's still not that good, as you may get locked into Ice Beam, or Fusion Bolt, and then have something throw a couple of heavy attacks (or once again burn) at you. It needs Fusion Bolt to get past Azumarill. Mega Diancie destroys it. I love the Sub set, but you need to force switches and some times eliminate some threats to use it decently.

I don't see the need for testing either, they don't overcentralise the metagame nor break usage records so far.

PD: Testing Zekrom was semifacetious, I guess it wasn't clear.
 
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Laurel said:
We need to retest Mega Kangaskhan.
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I believe we need to suspect Thundurus-Incarnate for obvious reasons.

1) It has the fourth most powerful move in existence: Thunder Wave (first being Dark Void, second being Spore, and third being Power-Up Punch). It cripples almost everything in existence, with the exception of Mega Absol (never seen), Mega Diancie (really common), Manectric (left the scene a while ago after being very rare), Landorus-Therian (probably the most common Pokemon in the meta), and Mega Sceptile (rare). at 20% of its actual Speed due to Thunder Wave, the crippled Pokemon has a 50% chance to get off the needed attack. Good players fucking hate to get Thunder Wave spammed for obvious reasons.

2) It has Taunt to literally stop Trick Room and Tailwind immediately unless they have Fake Out. Sure, Fake Out is common utility, but after the Fake Out is used there are still other methods of stopping Trick Room, like your own Fake Out. Kangaskhan and Thundurus are a dynamic duo purely because of the opponent's inability to move letting Kangaskhan get set up. You can ladder to the top with both Kangaskhan and Thundurus as well as a Little Cup team in the back.

3) It is really bulky. Say we go back to our argument of having our own Fake Out and we say that we use Hitmontop to provide our bulky Fake Out and utility overall. This allows Thundurus to take more physical hits while it spreads the Thunder Wave love.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

^the calc without Intimidate (notice that Thundurus is still hanging on by a thread)

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 232-274 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

^the calc with Intimidate added as well as less Defense, which means Thundurus can tank a lot of Specially Defensive hits when Landorus-Therian is not around.

The bulk is sadly real for anybody who wants to challenge it. Specially oriented Thundurus is extremely versatile against Rain and even absorbs Thunderbolts from itself.

252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 212 HP / 184 SpD Thundurus: 164-194 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

My point is that Thundurus is going to take a lot before it goes down, and before that happens it's going to leave a lasting memory on the team for the rest of the game in the form of shitting on it with Thunder Wave spam.

4) It's very strong. I mean just look at the base Special Attack, 125 is almost as much as, well, Mega Manectric. It hits really hard and works for and with Rain excellently while also providing a good method of haxing opponents for all teams using Thundurus.

52+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 270-318 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doing that to something very relevant in the meta game is something really scary for every rain team.

I think we should suspect it just because it's far too good at forcing coinflips, staying in, stopping Trick Room and Tailwind, and it excels at hitting hard.
 
It Is Guest said:
I believe we need to suspect Thundurus-Incarnate for obvious reasons.

1) It has the fourth most powerful move in existence: Thunder Wave (first being Dark Void, second being Spore, and third being Power-Up Punch). It cripples almost everything in existence, with the exception of Mega Absol (never seen), Mega Diancie (really common), Manectric (left the scene a while ago after being very rare), Landorus-Therian (probably the most common Pokemon in the meta), and Mega Sceptile (rare). at 20% of its actual Speed due to Thunder Wave, the crippled Pokemon has a 50% chance to get off the needed attack. Good players fucking hate to get Thunder Wave spammed for obvious reasons.

2) It has Taunt to literally stop Trick Room and Tailwind immediately unless they have Fake Out. Sure, Fake Out is common utility, but after the Fake Out is used there are still other methods of stopping Trick Room, like your own Fake Out. Kangaskhan and Thundurus are a dynamic duo purely because of the opponent's inability to move letting Kangaskhan get set up. You can ladder to the top with both Kangaskhan and Thundurus as well as a Little Cup team in the back.

3) It is really bulky. Say we go back to our argument of having our own Fake Out and we say that we use Hitmontop to provide our bulky Fake Out and utility overall. This allows Thundurus to take more physical hits while it spreads the Thunder Wave love.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

^the calc without Intimidate (notice that Thundurus is still hanging on by a thread)

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 232-274 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

^the calc with Intimidate added as well as less Defense, which means Thundurus can tank a lot of Specially Defensive hits when Landorus-Therian is not around.

The bulk is sadly real for anybody who wants to challenge it. Specially oriented Thundurus is extremely versatile against Rain and even absorbs Thunderbolts from itself.

252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 212 HP / 184 SpD Thundurus: 164-194 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

My point is that Thundurus is going to take a lot before it goes down, and before that happens it's going to leave a lasting memory on the team for the rest of the game in the form of shitting on it with Thunder Wave spam.

4) It's very strong. I mean just look at the base Special Attack, 125 is almost as much as, well, Mega Manectric. It hits really hard and works for and with Rain excellently while also providing a good method of haxing opponents for all teams using Thundurus.

52+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 270-318 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doing that to something very relevant in the meta game is something really scary for every rain team.

I think we should suspect it just because it's far too good at forcing coinflips, staying in, stopping Trick Room and Tailwind, and it excels at hitting hard.
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no
 
I just don't know what to say. It is bulky and can take many hits, of course (I mean: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), but you forget there are also other bulky users of both Thunder Wave and Taunt (Cresselia and Sableye come to mind, it being commin knowledge if which gets what). Yet although it may lead to hax at times, Thunder Wave is a tool of speed control. And say, what if, you are Trick Room weak and need taunt because Fake Out fails for you, and visa versa with Tail Wind (Thunder Wave going into play as well). Yet again with Fake Out failing with Room/Wind, the two could become OP without the Prankster to stop them.

Also, in saying Thundurus Incarnate should be banned because it us such a good rain check (which it is), would rain not become more OP? Likely not. Still though, what if you are running a rain-weak team with Thundurus as your main check? This being said, while you show some potential for a reason to suspect, I sadly cannot agree.

EDIT: I just realized where you said it does not cripple Landorus and Mega Sceptile. Are you forgetting many Thundurus run Hidden Power ICE?
 
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He's serious, it took me all day yesterday to get him to stop posting about it in the chat.

"Specially oriented Thundurus is extremely versatile against Rain and even absorbs Thunderbolts from itself."

Literally what am I reading.
 
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