np: Doubles Stage 2 - Suspect Discussion

[GlassGlaceon]

you say that sleep can be a liability because the opponent can simply go for protect when you try to sleep it. While this is true, it is also true for every single other move in doubles except like feint and phantom force. Also no one ninja'd you, the last post was 20 hours before yours.....

Reason I said ninja'd was because I actually planned to send that around 12:00 but then I got caught up in work and soccer and other crap and couldn't send it because my phone was lag, but the point I was trying to make was that I found spore easier to predict, and protect accordingly, although yes, it is true for any move, so I guess my point is mute

 

[Darnell]

Just saying like almost every sleep pokemon is grass and will by pass rage powder.
Amoonguss is not a check to sleep it merely stops 1 pokemon from being put to sleep but amoonguss can't do nothing to stop the pokemon to put other people to sleep,most grass types are the same for example ferrothorn can eat up a sleep powder from mega venusaur but it can't do anything to stop mega venu from putting other things to sleep.

Amoonguss uses Rage Powder... the sleep goes towards it and fails, then the other Pokemon attacks to take out the Pokemon which is trying to put its partner to sleep. I really don't see the problem here. I get what you mean by Grass types can't do damage to others which are potential Sleep users. So find a fast taunt'er or use Fake Out like what was said before, make the Pokemon flinch and then take it out. Grass types are usually bulky which may not be able to touch a Pokemon once it Subs as well. If they are fast... you break the sash(Fake Out) and then proceed to take it out.

 

[finally]

Amoonguss uses Rage Powder... the sleep goes towards it and fails, then the other Pokemon attacks to take out the Pokemon which is trying to put its partner to sleep. I really don't see the problem here. I get what you mean by Grass types can't do damage to others which are potential Sleep users. So find a fast taunt'er or use Fake Out like what was said before, make the Pokemon flinch and then take it out. Grass types are usually bulky which may not be able to touch a Pokemon once it Subs as well. If they are fast... you break the sash(Fake Out) and then proceed to take it out.

Grass types and safety goggles wearers ignore rage powder
Example: opposing amoonguss ignores your amoonguss' rage powder and puts your partner to sleep

 

[Darnell]

Grass types and safety goggles wearers ignore rage powder
Example: opposing amoonguss ignores your amoonguss' rage powder and puts your partner to sleep

Ah I see, Fake Out/Protect and proceed to attack with other Pokemon or Substitute on a Pokemon faster than Sleep-user? It will sort of be mind games then... you can't really tell if they are going to attack next turn or try and put you to sleep again. I guess that is pretty much it?

 

[jrp]

from what i've seen on the ladder, there are very few people building teams around spamming sleep, so I've had a relatively difficult time ascertaining a definite opinion on sleep. While on paper it seems to be inherently broken, in practice it's not always the case. For the most part, the pokemon using sleep are going to be using sleep powder, which in itself is a relatively inaccurate move unless the pokemon has compundeyes. And even then, most of the pokemon running these moves are fairly slow. The most common sleep pokemon i've have been Vivilion, Breloom and Amoonguss, all of which are pretty slow and are relatively easy to deal with (amoonguss being somewhat problematic due to its bulk, but for the most part the users are slow and frail). The issue with sleep is that if you're going to devote a slot for abusing sleep, you can devote another slot for something else that can fulfill a more useful role, and to be pretty frank, the sleep pokemon by themselves seem pretty shitty, with amoonguss being an exception.

But yeah I don't think that sleep is broken in this metagame.

ban dcae

 

[Darnell]

from what i've seen on the ladder, there are very few people building teams around spamming sleep, so I've had a relatively difficult time ascertaining a definite opinion on sleep. While on paper it seems to be inherently broken, in practice it's not always the case. For the most part, the pokemon using sleep are going to be using sleep powder, which in itself is a relatively inaccurate move unless the pokemon has compundeyes. And even then, most of the pokemon running these moves are fairly slow. The most common sleep pokemon i've have been Vivilion, Breloom and Amoonguss, all of which are pretty slow and are relatively easy to deal with (amoonguss being somewhat problematic due to its bulk, but for the most part the users are slow and frail). The issue with sleep is that if you're going to devote a slot for abusing sleep, you can devote another slot for something else that can fulfill a more useful role, and to be pretty frank, the sleep pokemon by themselves seem pretty shitty, with amoonguss being an exception.

But yeah I don't think that sleep is broken in this metagame.

I agree... I see Doubles teams focused around Sunny Day and Heat Wave spam as well... I don't think sleep Pokemon are going to be doing crap to them. Even if they are Focus sash'd two Pokemon using Heat Wave in boosted sun are easily going to take out the sleep user being seen quite frequently...

 

[Darkdiglett]

1. Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
I thought sleep would be flat out broken, but after playing quite a bit I don't think it is. It is just another thing you need to consider when team building. This gens nerfs to sleep made it completely manageable. I got my reqs without changing the team I was using prior to the suspect at all, which goes to show sleep isn't overcentralizing either. It's something you need to be able to beat or play around, and because of the nature of doubles this is definitely doable.

2. Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
No, not at all. The fact that people didn't need to change their teams in order to succeed with the removal of sleep clause proves that you dont need to dedicate enough of your team to beat it to make it overcentralizing. Also, there are a lot of ways sleep can be beaten, it isn't limited to one or two options that you will see on every team to beat sleep. These are not limited to: Talonflame, which will OHKO most sleep inducers. Grass types, being immune to both sleep powder and spore. Overcoat users, also being immune to sleep powder and spore. As well as safeguard users, mainly Cresselia or priority safeguard in Meowstic. With all these options and more, you cant say that sleep restrains teambuilding.

3. Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the Metagame?
I think that sleep increases the diversity of the metagame, this is because it increases the viability of sleep inducing mons, especially Mega Venusaur and Amoongus, but also increases the amount of pokemon used, whose purpose is to either check or counter this new strategy. Since sleep clause has been lifted, I have noticed the metagame has become a lot more diverse.

4. Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
Positive impact. It both increases the viability of more pokemon and increases the amount of thought you need to put into building a team since there is another strategy you need to prepare for.

5. Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
The thing is, you don't have to make a whole team around sleep in order to use it, just one or two mons with sleep inducing moves are enough to make use of the lifted clause. Because of this there is little opportunity cost in using sleep, as you can still build a solid team that isn't necessarily focused on inducing sleep on opponents, but can still achieve putting multiple opposing mons to sleep.

6.What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
I answered this in #2, but again there is Talonflame, Grass types, Safeguard, Taunt that are all extremely viable, fit onto almost all teams and beat sleep.

7.Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
There are top tier mons in this tier, but nothing really jumps out at being over the top right now.

To summarize: I think that sleep it neither broken or overcentralizing. I feel that it promotes more diverse team building and punishes poorly built teams. Which means you need to think when building a team that you have checks/counters to sleep, which isn't hard to do as there are multiple ways to do this, which I have discussed above. The metagame feels really balanced right now, with the removal of sleep clause.

 

[ebeast]

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

Sleep is very powerful as trying to find the turns needed to wake up can be difficult. However, I do not think it is broken or really all that centralizing. I don't think full Sleep based teams work very well as they as focus too much on Sleep and miss out on covering other things. Full Sleep teams being as flawed and inconsistent as they are tells me that that strategy in itself is not inherently broken in Doubles. A single Sleeper on a team is a great asset but not something that is overly difficult to play around. I haven't seen or used any teams that try to solely beat Sleep and I don't see a reason to do so in general.

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

Like I said previously, I don't see a reason to overprepare for Sleep as a good Doubles team naturally has answers to Sleep and its inducers.

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

Sleep increases the diversity of the metagame. More Pokemon are viable as they have a desirable trait that would want someone to put them on their team. As there is little need to overprepare for Sleep and therefore doesn't restrict teambuilding, I would say Sleep is net positive in terms of diversity.

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

In terms of diversity, like I said before, I would say that Sleep is a net positive. It can be annoying if your whole team gets put to Sleep, but at the end of the day that awful position is just a result of a chain of misplays, and other things can do practically the same thing.

• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

I'd say so. Especially when Sleep turns are so unpredictable that your opponent could wake up before you even have the chance to take advatange of it.

• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

Proper playing. Playing around Sleep is practically the same as playing Fake Out or Protect except when the best Sleeper is Amoonguss, who is slow as balls, it has to worry about 2 Pokemon threatening it rather than just one in the case of Fake Out. (Which does a similar job in opening up chances with partner mon to do something)

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

Things seem fine to me.

 

[Seven Lions]

Just from my experiences laddering and what others have said in this post, people don't seem to be building around sleep much. If they do, teams can naturally deal with them. Seeing an Amoonguss on the opposing team is already a dead giveaway of what it's trying to accomplish T1 in which you should adjust accordingly. Like ebeast above said, Amoonguss is slow as shit so it's susceptible to being KO'd before it can even use it, Taunted, or just switch to a Grass-type. Heatran and Zard Y are fairly common in Doubles and can deal with said Pokemon easily. Fake Out leads are omnipresent as ever allowing teams to easily KO Amoonguss. The Amoonguss user can use this to their advantage however as they can just switch out to something like TTar for example which takes miniscule damage from Ice- and Fire-type moves and nothing from Psychic-types. The removal of sleep clause won't over centralize the metagame as we already see on the suspect ladder where not many battlers are full on abusing Sleep and forced to pack Lum Berry on every member or Heal Bell. It's healthy for the metagame to be honest as another threat people can use. Using a team that abuses Sleep requires decent teambuilding as you cannot just stack Sleep-inducers (Smeargle, Amoonguss, Breloom) or they're going to be toast by something like Heat Wave Zard Y / Heatran.

 

[peekabooicu]

I feel like sleep clause needs to be implemented severely D: From my experience on the ladder, I have run into fake out + spore combinations too many a time. They are EXTREMELY frustrating as the faster pokemon on my team gets faked out the slower one gets put to sleep by taking advantage of the flinching of the faster pokemon. Ambipom + venusaur is a LETHAL combination- too lethal imo.

 

[Seven Lions]

I feel like sleep clause needs to be implemented severely D: From my experience on the ladder, I have run into fake out + spore combinations too many a time. They are EXTREMELY frustrating as the faster pokemon on my team gets faked out the slower one gets put to sleep by taking advantage of the flinching of the faster pokemon. Ambipom + venusaur is a LETHAL combination- too lethal imo.

Yeah but you can combat with with Protect. Adjusting what you lead out with is crucial too.

 

[peekabooicu]

Yeah but you can combat with with Protect. Adjusting what you lead out with is crucial too.

I agree but I feel like once teams start being purposefully adjusted with so much thought and leads are being changed drastically, the thing that is causing the change is affecting the entire play style and metagame. I would liken it to how people had to build their entire teams to challenge mega kangaskhan. Idk I might be being a bit picky but I feel like it makes fake out + spore combinations much too strong

 

[termi]

I agree but I feel like once teams start being purposefully adjusted with so much thought and leads are being changed drastically, the thing that is causing the change is affecting the entire play style and metagame. I would liken it to how people had to build their entire teams to challenge mega kangaskhan. Idk I might be being a bit picky but I feel like it makes fake out + spore combinations much too strong

Actually you should always have an answer for Fake Out + something dangerous (whether that be a sleep inducer, a setup sweeper, or just something that hits really fuckin hard), simply use Protect correctly, predict the opponent's lead correctly or just use a Ghost type. It's nothing different from what you usually do in a battle, Fake Out and the like are already really popular in doubles so you should know how to fight that off regardless.

 

[peekabooicu]

Actually you should always have an answer for Fake Out + something dangerous (whether that be a sleep inducer, a setup sweeper, or just something that hits really fuckin hard), simply use Protect correctly, predict the opponent's lead correctly or just use a Ghost type. It's nothing different from what you usually do in a battle, Fake Out and the like are already really popular in doubles so you should know how to fight that off regardless.

Again I agree but I personally find the fake out + sleep inducer combination much more potent than the other fake out + move combos. Just my opinion though

 

[Pocket]

peekabooicu does make a small point; Fake Out + Sleep leads certainly screw over Pokemon like Thundurus, which often foregoes Protect. Therefore, Fake Out prevents Thundurus from shutting down the Sleep user, and instead puts the genie to sleep instead. That's just only one example of anti-sleep measure getting busted, though. I think Protect would be even more important in the sleep meta to prevent certain key Pokemon from getting slept prematurely.

 

[Seven Lions]

I think Safeguard users might become a bit more used like Meowstic who can do a bit with Fake Out and Safeguard, Klefki as well some notable users.

 

[Lemuraleso]

Even amoonguss not being as popular as well, and even though there are several ways to stop it, in many cases it can be rather a problem about to apply the sleep clause in double battles.

I was using a trick room team with amoonguss. The idea of this team was never abuse spore or something, but not in some rare cases, occurred in my amoongus put to sleep the two pokemons field. Nothing competitive.

Unfortunately I forgot to record the battles. : (

 

[TGMD]

peekabooicu does make a small point; Fake Out + Sleep leads certainly screw over Pokemon like Thundurus, which often foregoes Protect. Therefore, Fake Out prevents Thundurus from shutting down the Sleep user, and instead puts the genie to sleep instead. That's just only one example of anti-sleep measure getting busted, though. I think Protect would be even more important in the sleep meta to prevent certain key Pokemon from getting slept prematurely.

Yeah, I'd definitely say Fake Out + sleep is more dangerous than most Fake Out leads. However, just leading with a Fake Out user of your own + Thundurus pretty much guarantees they won't be able to put anything to sleep until much later in the game, as if you double attack the sleep user (Thundurus uses Taunt and Fake Out user Fake Outs) then the sleep user will either flinch or be Taunted depending on who the opposing Fake Out user uses Fake Out on. Either way, the sleep user won't be putting anything to sleep that turn and, if it hasn't been taunted already, Thundurus can safely Taunt the next turn without having to worry about Fake Out. In fact, if the opposing Fake Out user is slower than your own, you can Fake Out him instead and then you won't take any damage that turn whatsoever. This is all very situational, all it does is save Thundurus from having to use Protect, and you likely won't be able to set it up this way later on in the game, but it's something at least!

 

[peekabooicu]

peekabooicu does make a small point; Fake Out + Sleep leads certainly screw over Pokemon like Thundurus, which often foregoes Protect. Therefore, Fake Out prevents Thundurus from shutting down the Sleep user, and instead puts the genie to sleep instead. That's just only one example of anti-sleep measure getting busted, though. I think Protect would be even more important in the sleep meta to prevent certain key Pokemon from getting slept prematurely.

Exactly! And I don't want to make it seem like fake out + sleep ruins the meta and infuriates me; not at all. I am just saying that it definitely makes me think about what to put on my team and changes the way I play significantly. My belief system is that if one clause/rule/aspect makes me entirely change my team building, play style and move choosing (protect on most of my pokes); it has to be AT LEAST suspected if not banned.

 

[BlankZero]

As I work towards making Reqs (I really hate laddering but w/e), I've noticed that it's currently very easy to abuse sleep, but it's nearly impossible to capitalize hard on it without a team based solely around it. While it may be easy enough to Sleep MegaKhan, there is no guarantee it's gonna be a 3 turn sleep and that it won't wake up immediately and wreck your face with Return.

While it's easy to just throw something on and use it to create a free turn or two, sometimes it's better or more frugal to go with a more permanent status, like Burn or Paralyze, and we don't find those nearly as broken. Hell, we don't even have a Freeze Clause, although after my tour match with StarmanXL I am totally in favor of one, and Freeze is far more debilitating as it has no timer, and there are no move to take advantage of the state (Sleep Talk, etc).

Last gen, I'd have said you were crazy to lose Sleep Clause. Heck, even before I actually played around with it a good bit, I'd have called you nuts. Now, after playing with a sleep abuse team, a team without any sort of sleep abuse or protection, and a team with a bit of both, I can honestly say that it is not an unhealthy option for us in the slightest, and would actually boost our teambuilding efforts, making us think harder and longer about our choices, and gives us a few more mons to choose from, as the Jumpluffs, Amoongusi, and Darkrai increases show.

 

[Laurel]

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

- Its not over centralizing... I've played a few sleep spam teams in my last 50 games, but its usually not a team focus. I do, however, still think its stupid powerful, but you can prepare for it I guess... You just burn an item for another Lum Berry or add Safe Guard etc

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

- Not too much preparation is required I guess... its just another threat to prepare for... make sure you're not recked by Mega Kanga, make sure you're not recked by sleep... same thing

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

- Still not sure about this one because while you have strategies like Gravity becoming popular, grass types becomes more common to block spore and sleep powder, and therefore, Heatran is even better

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

- I guess it doesn't hurt the meta as much as I initially thought, but I don't think its healthy for the meta in any way shape or form, putting everything to sleep is just stupid, but I wouldn't be to unhappy if it was unbanned I guess

• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

- No. Sleep Spam is broken because most teams are unprepared for it... Of course there are better players who use priority to kill my darkrai, or have Lum Berry, or Safe Guard, but most people are just screwed by sleep spam teams right now...

• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

- Amoonguss, Safeguard, Mega Venusaur, Lum Berry, Priorty for Darkrai, these seem to be the best checks

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

- Not really sure, nothing seems too overwhelming right now.

 

[Stratos]

I just wanted to say that Smogon suspect testing policy has always been and will always be concerned only with battles between two good players. It shouldn't affect your vote if the idiots with 1100 ELO get ruined by sleep spam; if that was the barometer for banning something, then we'd have to get rid of Heat Wave, Justified, and a bunch of other shit too. If it is broken against good players, then yes we should ban it, but as you yourself just said, the better players aren't fucktarded and thus dont lose to awful strategies like gravity + darkrai.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Ok I'll make a longer post when I have time but since I am gettin close to reqs I figure I should establish my position, which as of now is just to keep sleep clause since I don't see a real reason to free it. As others have said it's a vote of opinion either way, but I think that the metagame isnt as enjoyable without sleep clause (which some other users have agreed with me on) and find arguments claiming some sort of increased diversity in the metagame to be highly dubious.

 

[D-Quag]

I don't find sleep over-centralizing on the ladder because it's so unpredictable, but in a battle between two good players, using sleep can be devastating. You definitely need to teambuild with it in mind because there are various ways that sleep can totally hand momentum to an opponent. In theory, only one pokemon can be put to sleep before the user is forced to switch or faints, but with something like amoonguss in trick room it's all too easy to put opponents to sleep.

Take the common semi-tr core of amoonguss and cresselia for example. Cress trick rooms, switch in amoonguss, and sleep the greatest threat. The other pokemon is forced to either a) protect b) switch into a grass type c) sleep fodder something. Cress can ice beam a grass type and protect just stalls out a turn of sleep for your partner. That's pretty much all you can do.

That said, I agree with Audio that there is no real reason to free it. It basically makes everything really annoying if your opponents play right.

 

[Level 51]

I just wanted to say that Smogon suspect testing policy has always been and will always be concerned only with battles between two good players.

tenchi17 vs Level 51

obviously Iron Tail was a big factor in this match since it was my ~sole~ way of dealing with CM Sylveon (since Sludge Wave didn't go so well), but I think the sleep spam at the start crippled tenchi's team a lot, rendering his Thundurus and Tyranitar useless, two mons which would likely have given Heatran trouble later on.