np: ORAS UU Stage 7.3 - See No Evil | Baton Pass Suspect - see post #110

[ShimoHkun1]

To be fair, on this thread alone I've seen more valid arguments to have Celebi go instead, and frankly as Schpoonman said:

It's not that Celebi has one broken move, it's that, like Salamence, it has completely different answers based on its sets, and packing the wrong answer to a given set (like Blissey vs SD Pass) means you get swept almost instantly. Well, maybe not against Defensive Rocker or Perish Song, but you know what I mean.

Also, you left out Hydreigon's Taunt Roost set which is one of the major reasons it's being suspected.

I'd like to think of the Onion Fairy as a slightly worse Mew, and notice I say slightly, and with it's oddly functional typing, BP with 3 fantastic major passing moves (namely SD, CM, and NP) alongside its solid bulk, its no wonder Hydra is used so much, and yes it can fill more roles than checking Celebi, but the type of set that is run on Drei limits its abilities to hit certain targets.

For Example:
Other Pokemon that can run highly varying sets (such as Celebi, which i will use in this example) are a huge threat to Hydra if he doesn't run the right set. For Celebi he needs a Scarf to out speed max speed and not die to Dazzle, Taunt-Roost to deal with either the BP or SR sets, and so on.

Hydra has so many options and he can't do everything at once, and I do believe that this is why Hydreigon isn't as bad as it is made out to be.

 

[Euphonos]

I really echo King UU's sentiments about Celebi. Its ability to serve both as a catalyst to the team's success and as a stand-out threat to the opposing team is worth warranting a quick suspect test after Hydreigon. This isn't really the case for Hydreigon, however. Hydreigon's stellar defensive capabilities notably serves as a catalyst to the success of any offensive team as any offensive team needs a Pokemon to switch into resisted attacks and, in the case of the Life Orb variations, Roost all the damage taken, while Hydreigon's stellar offensive capabilities notably serves as a catalyst to bulky teams as it needs some sort of firepower to break through other defensive teams with its unconventional 98 Base Speed and its sky-high 125 Base Special Attack along with the most ferocious STABs in Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse. While Hydreigon undoubtedly is a colossal force to be reckoned with, the stand-out threat aspect of Hydreigon is not enough because it cannot solely threaten any team all by itself. This is the reason why pro-ban arguments didn't really convince me enough to vote ban for Hydreigon.

 

[Snoo]

Frens!

Hydreigon is good at what it does, being a good wall-breaker thanks to it's diverse movepool.

Ask yourself:

* Does Hydreigon affect teambuilding?

* Does Hydreigon have no checks & counters in the tier?

* Does Hydreigon forces you to use a certain Pokemon or move to deal with it?

As for me, I feel that there are enough Pokemon in the tier to deal with Hydreigon. It can be played around, aiding you of finding out it's set.

If I do get the reqs required for this suspect test, I will definitely be voting, No Ban.

:]

 

[Dread Plate]

So, I will try to keep this as short as I can. Hydreigon is easily one of the best mons in the tier, and everyone knows that. I have been on the fence about this suspect and where I would place myself. After really thinking about it, I think that Hydreigon does exactly what it is supposed to do with any given set or spread. Sure, it can break holes in team, but that is what it is supposed to do. It, alone, does not just win the game. After wearing down teams, Scarf Hydreigon can finish the job most times. LO Hydreigon can deal the necessary damage to teams and specific mons. Specs can do more to the dedicated "Hydreigon answers." But that is the purpose. You can't just send out Hydrei and win without damage and chipping. Don't get me wrong, it has such powerful STAB moves and its coverage and defensive prowess are great, but it does the same thing any other Choiced mon or LO mon would do. It fulfills those requirements. And since it is so widely used, it should be obvious that you need to run something to at least check it, again, like any other popular mon in the tier. This is why I am deciding to vote: Do Not Ban

 

[Heroes and Cons]

I was thinking with myself: “What does similar threatening as Hydreigon?” And I realized that the usual options to check Hydreigon are similar to the Noivern ones. However, what makes Hydreigon preferable over Noivern:
- Higher stats, with the exception of speed;
- More resists, recieves less stealth rocks punishment;
- More damage comparing specs sets;
- Iron Tail/ Flash cannon; [Although these really depend on the team and I think it’s a lot safer to run a fairy/ice/rock check instead]
- U-turn, Roost and Taunt.

Err, Noivern also has access to all three of these, and has the speed to make better use of Taunt and Roost.

Anyway, I don't have the reqs to vote, but I certainly think Hydreigon is a healthy part of the metagame that should remain in UU. It isn't the crazy-powerful wallbreaker that Staraptor and Victini were, nor can it set up with ease to sweep like Volcarona could. It is simply one of the primary forces that defines UU, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Wanka]

I thought my mind was made up before I started laddering but after getting reqs and reading some posts In this thread, I am a bit undecided on my vote.

The big thing for me was how hydreigon made teambuilding extremely annoying. Building offense was just a matter of "oh well I don't have any draco resists but I'll just play well and limit its damage." Yeah that's annoying to some people, but annoying isn't necessarily broken and well played offense that can sustain hazards can deal with hydrei just fine. Is drei more than just annoying tho? There have been a lot of good posts made saying it is and the reasoning isn'the wrong either. The restriction and centralization on teambuilding can be perceived as far more than annoying. Part of me hated the fact that I saw a fairy on every team I laddered against, but part of me thinks that some of utility of hydrei is being overhyped and the notion of "if you don't have a hard check to it you lose," is false.

On paper, the centralization merits a ban, but the examples dod has put forward seem to numb it's effect and make me think otherwise. I'm abstaining as of now if I can.

 

[Highways]

Time to give my thoughts

First of all, I'm not disagreeing that Hydreigon is the best Pokémon in the tier, but I think that Celebi is by far the most splashable and dangerous. You can't run Hydreigon in every playstyle, but you can run Celebi in every kind of team if you want, from Heavy Stall to Hyper Offense. It may sound crazy, but I think that if Hydreigon is banned, the tier will be even more unhealthy, because Hydreigon is the only good Offensive Check to Celebi, Krookodile, and Entei, what's quite interesting. Hydreigon's main problem is that it's easily worn down by Stealth Rock + Status, what enables it to recover its HP comfortably with Roost, and if you are running a Choice Scarf/Specs Set, you may take care about Sylveon, a Pokémon that is omnipresent actually. Hydreigon's best set is by far its Mixed Set (I like Focus Blast + Flash Cannon + STABs too), and your matchup versus it will be very ameliorated if you know its coverage, since you can abuse of Draco Meteor drops, Iron Tail in Steel-Types and etc.. Like Wanka mentioned, if you say that you lose to Hydreigon if you don't have a hard check is a stupid argument. The real problem actually is - like King UU said - Celebi, since nothing is 100% safe versus it due to its godlike movepool and Baton Pass, what's a stupid tool in any team, and its Nasty Plot set can run any coverage/status move in the last slot (I'm talking about Baton Pass, Leech Seed, Earth Power, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball etc.). Hydreigon affects the teambuilding a lot, I know, but if it is banned, Pokémon like Celebi and Krookodile will laugh, and the UU metagame will be full of broken Pokémon. I'm not disagreeing that Hydreigon is powerful enough to be banned, I'm just saying that its unhealthy helps the metagame a lot. Thus, I'm voting no ban.

Also, am I the only one that is missing Pearl's beautiful draw about the Suspect Test? :[

 

[Hogg]

While there have been some pretty good anti-ban arguments put forward, I do want to remind folks that the existence of another broken threat shouldn't necessarily influence your vote here. If Celebi is broken, even if you think it is more broken than Hydreigon, that should be addressed in its own possible suspect test in the future. The fact that something else potentially more broken exists shouldn't change the question at hand: is Hydreigon banworthy?

Again, not trying to curb anyone's argument, as there have been some very good points on both sides of the aisle. I just want to make sure we're staying on topic when discussing whether or not we keep Hydreigon in the tier.

 

[obii]

Yeah I don't like the direction this thread is heading. The merits of a particular mon shouldn't be a factor when determining whether it's broken or not. This "broken checks broken" mindset is something we must avoid because it really doesn't solve the issue. If hydreigon is one of the few things keeping celebi at bay, then that doesn't mean we keep it in the tier. It means we ban hydreigon (if you determine that it's too strong for uu) and then suspect celebi.

At the beginning of the suspect I was really leaning towards ban maybe because I felt hydreigon pressured teams waaay too much such as forcing balance to run a fairy type, dismantling offense, and pressuring stall to the point where it can force at least a 1v1 trade. King UU and Dodmen make really good points about hydreigon being the best mon in the tier and thus creating the illusion that it is too strong for UU. I don't really have a clear opinion yet but i'm gonna address some of the anti-ban arguments.

The main points I understood from king uu and dodmen's posts were that hydreigon is not overwhelming for the tier because it usually has to sacrifice its coverage or power to satisfy some role and that it doesn't get virtually free switch ins like some pro-ban arguments make it sound. The issue I have with these arguments is that they imply hydreigon's other sets are on par with its all out attacking set. Yes, hydreigon's versatility is part of what makes it really good but its the all out attacking set that pushed the limits of UU and makes hydreigon arguably broken. When mence was banned, saying that mence had to sacrifice coverage/power to run the special attacking set didn't take away from the fact that the DD set was stupidly broken. I think its a similar case with hydreigon. When running the AoA set, I feel like games become too much guess-reliant since you're first forced to scout whether the hydreigon even has the appropriate coverage and by the time you'd figured it out, your sylveon has taken an iron tail, your forretress took a dark pulse, and now 2/6 of your team members are at less than half. Hydreigon has done its job of dismantling the defensive backbone of a team and paving the way for some other member to sweep. I don't think a mon necessarily needs to be able to 6-0 teams from preview to be broken, but being able to force a positive trade every single game against every single play style is pretty ridiculous.

The main issue I have with dodmen's arguments is that he disregards the fact that predictions go both ways. On the most recent balance rmt's, hydreigon can in theory break through the defensive cores with the AoA set (this is the reason it's being suspected), which means the balance player also needs to predict perfectly around the hydreigon. If the balance player is able to do so, good job to them, they got the guesses right. The main thing is, hydreigon makes battling less about risk vs reward and intelligent plays and forces players to make silly maneuvers which if they get wrong then they are screwed.

Gonna add more later since I'm having trouble putting my thoughts on paper

 

[Accel]

I'd just like to start off by letting you all know that this is my first post in any NP thread and that I'll be open to any criticism regarding the post I'm about to make. I also realize that I'll be echoing previous points that have already been made regarding why Hydreigon should be banned, but hopefully you all will see the context in which I will be providing my arguments.​

Here we go!

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***The offensive impact it has on the tier***:
---------------------------------------------------------​

So I've been playing ORAS UU for almost a year and a half now on PS, and most of my builds have always appreciated the offensive pressure and general support that Hydreigon brings to the table. For the most part, I've made use of Hydreigon's LO Roost sets, and on occasion I'll switch it up and use the AoA set (which should net anyone at least 1 KO per game, maybe even 2 or 3 if you play aggressively and efficiently) and the scarf set, based on whichever set is a better fit for the team I'd be using. Hydreigon's dual stabs, Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse, are ridiculously powerful moves, and the prevalence of these two moves alone forces many to run a fairy type on each team, or something niche like Porygon-2 if it happens to fit on the build, and even then, it risks being KO'd by Draco Meteor followed up by a Superpower with rocks up. What I've noticed during my time on here is that every 'good' team dedicates a slot or two to checking Hydreigon on any style not named HO, and that these slots will be filled with a Florges or Sylveon for the most part, both of which usually provide a full stop to the three headed dragon's rampage.

Most players are under the impression that Florges and Sylveon are hard counters to Hydreigon, and to some extent, they're not wrong. Both mons shrug off the damage taken from Scarf Hydreigon and can also shut down Taunt+Roost variants as well. What I fail to understand is why most of these players overlook Flash Cannon or Iron Tail, both of which are fantastic options on LO Hydreigon. Back during the Salamence meta, players would deal with it by means of applying offensive pressure or by running a Shuca mon or a Fairy type to check the DD set (which was the set that got it banned imo, since the rest of them, barring AoA, were fairly easy to deal with or play around). We all know that Iron Tail was a staple on Mence's DD set, and for good reason, since it got rid of opposing fairy types, which are pretty much the team's glue, and all you had to do was rely on actually hitting the move lol. With a DD up, the aforementioned fairy types weren't able to switch in, and firing off unboosted attacks isn't entirely unheard of either. That being said, fairy types weren't a fail-safe counter vs Salamence, as many were prone to believe, and I believe that Hydreigon applies the same pressure, if not more.

--- 4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 177-211 (45 - 53.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I realize that Sylveon can easily Protect and gain back some recovery through Leftovers and then proceed to get up a Wish. At this point, the player running the Sylveon is playing extremely passively, and any competent player can take advantage of the situation and apply more pressure in return. Another point to consider is that Sylveon acts as a check to more than just Hydreigon, and the chances of its lefties being knocked off by Conkeldurr, for example, isn't outside the realm of possibility. Besides, getting chip on a glue mon like Sylveon isn't hard in the slightest, and Sylveon is effectively nullified as a Hydreigon check, if it's running Iron Tail or Flash Cannon.

I have no idea why people overlook both of these coverage moves. Maybe it's because they prefer Fire Blast or even Superpower, because these moves also offer further wallbreaking capability, but when all's said and done, one has to respect the fact that their opp's Hydreigon might be running one of those two steel type coverage moves. This leads me to my next point, which is that Hydreigon has no counters.

I've copied the list of how Hydreigon tackles all of the relevant checks and counters from the teambuilding compendium to support my point.

***Calcs***

--- 4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Basically the two moves KO bliss after rocks, (59.6+29.1 = 88.7+12.5-6.25 = 94.95% minimum damage output after Draco + Superpower + Lefties recovery after rocks

--- 4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 179-213 (49.7 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

--- 4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 177-211 (45 - 53.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 120 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 335-395 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 398-471 (122.8 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

--- 4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 263-309 (70.6 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 118-140 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The two moves KO Empo after rocks, (70.6+31.7 = 102.3 + 12.5 - 6.25) = 108.55% minimum damage output after Dark + Superpower + Lefties recovery after rocks

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 484-572 (141.1 - 166.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 207-243 (49.1 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Applies heavy pressure especially with rocks up, and Taunt+Roost can beat mandi)

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 151-179 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

39.5+40.3+12.5 = 92.3% minimum damage output, while Taunt+Roost beats P2 or can Taunt it first and then force it out, which effectively nullifies it as a switch-in in the future.

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 253-298 (83.2 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Either way, Sableye is stuck spamming Recover, which doesn't make it an effective check.

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 281-333 (90 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 221-263 (70.8 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 192-227 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 188 HP / 144 Def Snorlax: 276-325 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

37.7+54.3+12.5-6.25 = 98.25% minimum damage output, while Taunt helps to shut it down.

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 161-191 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40.8+54.8+12.5-6.25 = 101.85% minimum damage output, while Taunt also deals with it pretty nicely.

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Whimsicott: 281-333 (86.9 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Whimsicott: 385-455 (119.1 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some who claim that Hydreigon's sets are predictable and are easy to switch into are mistaken in my opinion, because even if a team's composition leads you to believe that Hydreigon's running a particular set, a competent builder can use this to their advantage and lure you into a false sense of security if it's played well.

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***The defensive utility it can provide to most teams***:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Obviously, Hydreigon is used on balance, bulky offense, and hyper offensively styled builds, and its phenomenal defensive typing provides it with 6 handy resistances and 2 immunities. 92/90/90 bulk is simply out of this world for any mon with an insanely high offensive capacity. Even without any defensive investment, Hydreigon can still check some threats that most offensive teams have a hard time playing around. I'll also include list of relevant calcs supporting this point.

--- 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 150-177 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 134-158 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 244-288 (75 - 88.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 174-205 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 159-188 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 234-276 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(sacred+sneak shouldn't KO unless doublade gets a high roll on both moves)

--- 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 104-123 (32 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

--- 252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 116-136 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Remember, the point of these calcs is to showcase Hydreigon's bulk and why's it's simply too good for a mon with Hydreigon's caliber of offensive power.

As someone who was initially on the fence regarding whether Hydreigon should be banned or not, I now believe that the tier is better off with it gone. Our over-reliance on running fairy types on near every team is proof that Hydreigon is overcentralizing for the tier; if you don't prep for it then you're bound to have a hard time winning if the player using Hydreigon even has some semblance of a brain. Again, the offensive pressure that Hydreigon can exert on most teams is simply unmatched in this meta (apart from stuff like Celebi), and multiple parallels can be drawn between it and Salamence based on their offensive and defensive strengths.

TL;DR Its ability to OHKO or 2HKO the vast majority of the tier, combined with its highly potent defensive presence on offensive teams, is why I'll be voting for it to be banned.

 

[Schpoonman]

While there have been some pretty good anti-ban arguments put forward, I do want to remind folks that the existence of another broken threat shouldn't necessarily influence your vote here. If Celebi is broken, even if you think it is more broken than Hydreigon, that should be addressed in its own possible suspect test in the future. The fact that something else potentially more broken exists shouldn't change the question at hand: is Hydreigon banworthy?

Again, not trying to curb anyone's argument, as there have been some very good points on both sides of the aisle. I just want to make sure we're staying on topic when discussing whether or not we keep Hydreigon in the tier.

I think the point that at least King UU was making was that Celebi is explicitly what breaks Hydreigon, and that's a legitimate point to make when considering the decision to vote ban or no-ban. Like Dod said, Hydreigon is not (and in my opinion has never been) the kind of monster that Alakazam and Salamence were. Celebi's presence in the tier is the kind of support Hydreigon needs to really be a ban-worthy threat.

Their words, not mine, of course. Also, I love your new avatar.

Yeah I don't like the direction this thread is heading. The merits of a particular mon shouldn't be a factor when determining whether it's broken or not. This "broken checks broken" mindset is something we must avoid because it really doesn't solve the issue. If hydreigon is one of the few things keeping celebi at bay, then that doesn't mean we keep it in the tier. It means we ban hydreigon (if you determine that it's too strong for uu) and then suspect celebi.

At the beginning of the suspect I was really leaning towards ban maybe because I felt hydreigon pressured teams waaay too much such as forcing balance to run a fairy type, dismantling offense, and pressuring stall to the point where it can force at least a 1v1 trade. King UU and Dodmen make really good points about hydreigon being the best mon in the tier and thus creating the illusion that it is too strong for UU. I don't really have a clear opinion yet but i'm gonna address some of the anti-ban arguments.

The main points I understood from king uu and dodmen's posts were that hydreigon is not overwhelming for the tier because it usually has to sacrifice its coverage or power to satisfy some role and that it doesn't get virtually free switch ins like some pro-ban arguments make it sound. The issue I have with these arguments is that they imply hydreigon's other sets are on par with its all out attacking set. Yes, hydreigon's versatility is part of what makes it really good but its the all out attacking set that pushed the limits of UU and makes hydreigon arguably broken. When mence was banned, saying that mence had to sacrifice coverage/power to run the special attacking set didn't take away from the fact that the DD set was stupidly broken. I think its a similar case with hydreigon. When running the AoA set, I feel like games become too much guess-reliant since you're first forced to scout whether the hydreigon even has the appropriate coverage and by the time you'd figured it out, your sylveon has taken an iron tail, your forretress took a dark pulse, and now 2/6 of your team members are at less than half. Hydreigon has done its job of dismantling the defensive backbone of a team and paving the way for some other member to sweep. I don't think a mon necessarily needs to be able to 6-0 teams from preview to be broken, but being able to force a positive trade every single game against every single play style is pretty ridiculous.

The main issue I have with dodmen's arguments is that he disregards the fact that predictions go both ways. On the most recent balance rmt's, hydreigon can in theory break through the defensive cores with the AoA set (this is the reason it's being suspected), which means the balance player also needs to predict perfectly around the hydreigon. If the balance player is able to do so, good job to them, they got the guesses right. The main thing is, hydreigon makes battling less about risk vs reward and intelligent plays and forces players to make silly maneuvers which if they get wrong then they are screwed.

Gonna add more later since I'm having trouble putting my thoughts on paper

Okay, you say prediction goes both ways but you don't actually treat your argument in that fashion. In most of the early posts in the thread that were pro-ban, there was a LOT of pro-Hydreigon-prediction bias, especially when considering the AoA set. Hydreigon predicts the Fairy switch-in EVERY time, lands EVERY Iron Tail (I quit running Hydreigon myself because it was blind, and when I DID make the Iron Tail prediction which was NOT always it missed literally every one), knows when to drop EVERY Draco, etc.

This does not happen in practice. I remember one game in particular with AoA where I led with Hydreigon against their Swampert. The obvious play was to switch out to their Sylveon, so I predicted that, MISSED the Iron Tail (again, I cannot stress this enough, Iron Tail is hideously overrated in Hydreigon's case), and then proceeded to take a Mega Swampert Ice Punch to the face. Speaking hypothetically from here on out (I don't remember the rest of the game besides the fact I lost because I was effectively playing 6-5 out the gate), if I DID try for a Draco Meteor on turn two, they could freely stay in knowing it wouldn't OHKO while I could be down to 2% depending on rolls so it could freely set up Rain Dance to soften my team up only to be Wished back up later, set up Rocks so Hydreigon really is gone for the rest of the game, or even beat MY prediction and switch out to Sylveon and force me out.

All of those replays Dod posted of him and DrReuniclus show exactly that, that Hydreigon can be dead weight against a given team even if it has the "correct" set that supposedly completely nukes a given playstyle. Hogg's replay of him against Koko shows Hydreigon being used to extremely good effect, and I don't mean to disparage his argument, but Koko played out of his goddamn mind with Hydreigon, and a player of a lesser caliber could not have applied the same pressure with the same set.

 

[obii]

I don't think factoring in hax is a great argument. That's almost saying hydreigon can't break through sylveon because there's a chance iron tail can miss, which is true, but when thinking about these kinds of scenarios, you must consider that both players are of equal skill playing at the highest level and should disregard hax/rng since that is a completely different and inherent part of the game we can't really change.

I can't really respond to the part about the game you had since there's too little information to determine whether you should've iron tail'd turn 1 or just clicked draco. I can say that your team should be built in such a way that if you clicked draco turn 1 and allowed sylv to come in for free, then there should be countermeasures in place for that sylv.

I don't wanna dissect every single replay dodmen posted but I will briefly do the first 1. As dodmen says, " in theory: Hydreigon has a free switchin opportunity against SR Gligar, forces out Gligar, Haxorus, and Heliolisk, and 2HKOs everything with Dark Pulse except possibly Empoleon.In practice: Hydreigon comes in after a boom to pick off a 24% Gligar, is forced out, then comes in to revenge kill a weakened Empoleon before being checked by Abomasnow."

I think this is oversimplifying the battle tremendously. Think carefully about what DrReuniclus did. Once the metagross boomed on gligar, DrReuniclus had 3 logical options:

1. Sending in hydreigon to finish off the gligar
2. Sending in darmanitan to finish off the gligar
3. Sending in blastoise to finish off the gligar.

Option 1: Sending in hydreigon to finish off gligar ensures 1 of 2 things. Gligar will die or something will get hit by a dark pulse. Hydreigon forces mienshao in the next turn which means DrReuniclus has a safe switch into cress. This is exactly what happened. Furthermore, Hydreigon prevents haxorus from setting up, threatens to hit aboma hard, and discourages heliolisk from coming in.

Option 2: Darmanitan can very easily click flare blitz to finish off gligar. This still opens DrReuniclus up to mienshao but also opens him up to haxorus which is fairly threatening to him team given that his shuca gross is dead. If hax succeeded in weakening cress and blastoise, shao mightve cleaned up.

Option 3: Blastoise can finish off the gligar. This allows heliolisk to come in for free and either tbolt or volt switch. If DrReuniclus allowed blastoise to get weakened he is much more susceptible to haxorus, which in turn makes him more susceptible to mienshao

Hydreigon played a much bigger role in the games than you think if you look beyond the specific turns and more into DrReuniclus' motive behind each play.

 

[Nalei]

Sure, Hydreigon is extremely versatile, and depending on it's set, it's only real checks are Porygon2 and Conkeldurr. But that's just the thing - depending on it's set. As you only get 4 moveslots, plenty of other pokemon can check Hydreigon once you know what it's set is. One might argue that it's so hard to determine what it's set is until it's gotten a kill, but for a higher skill cap player, I'd beg to differ. Think about why they brought Hydreigon in. If they just brung their Hydreigon in against your weakened Florges, it's fairly obvious that they're carrying Flash Cannon or Iron Tail. If that's the case, and they also have Dark Pulse and Draco Meteor like 99% of Hydreigons do, that rules out the Taunt+Roost set, allowing you a safe switch into a pokemon like Umbreon. Similar ideas can be applied to all of it's other coverage moves and items, allowing you to get an idea of what set it's running before it even attacks.

Perhaps it's a bit more of a generic match up like Hydreigon coming in against Doublade. You can no longer tell anything about the Hydreigon other than it carrying Dark Pulse, but it can still be played around. Making proper doubles really hurts Hydreigon. In order to kill my Krookodile, Hydreigon would have to use Draco Meteor. This opens up an opportunity for me to switch into my SpD Forretress. If it has Fire Blast or Taunt+Roost, it'll probably stay in an click that, but if it doesn't, your opponent is likely going to switch into something to deal with Forretress. By switching into something to deal with your opponent's Forretress check, assuming it can take a -2 Fire Blast okay, you'll be able to get the momentum back in your favor.

You might ask what good that does, considering that your Forretress took some serious damage. It does a lot of good, actually! You now know whether it's carrying Fire Blast. In addition, you can figure out what item it has. Hydreigon's only real viable items are Lefties, LO, Specs and Scarf. If it takes LO recoil, you know it's item. If it heals rocks damage from Lefties, you know it's item. Leaving only 2 possible items left, from which it can be easily found out which one it is based on how much damage it did. From there, you now know it's item and a piece of Hydreigon's moveset. Once you have this information, Hydreigon is pretty easy to deal with, provided you play well and you have a balanced team.

tl;dr Hydreigon is extremely diverse and threatening, but for more skilled players, it can be played around. Haven't reached reqs yet, but leaning towards no ban.

 

[Ernesto]

I finally got reqs after not being able to play much last week (I could've done it before but, since I knew I was gonna get them today, I took my time), so I guess it's time I post my thoughts.

When I read about the possibility of suspecting Hydra in last np thread, the first thing that came to mind was "Ugh, not again". I read Hogg 's well-thought-out post and I could see he made some good points, but I still didn't (read: don't) think Hydreigon was broken. He mentioned that one of the reasons to test it now and not before was that, in past metas, Scarf was the most common one so obviously that wasn't gonna be broken, but I tried to remember the time we retested it two years ago and what the meta was like. As far as I know, pink core (Florges-Slowbro-Mew, although there were some variations) was still a thing back then, and it made sense for people to use Wallbreaking Hydra against those, be it LO or Specs. There was also the fact that this meta is more offensive, so if anything it had a better speed tier than now (for example, Cobalion wasn't too common, and iirc Infernape and Lucario only dropped a bit later, along with Blissey). So I had to check what was said during the Council votes. I gotta say I dislike my post, particularly because I mention it being unable to cover everything, which isn't true because even back then 4 attacks was perfectly viable—just that Roost granted it more durability so as to actually switch in more often. However, there was next to no doubt that it was balanced back then. It's hard to think that it'd get less balanced the higher the check number, or that it's the one causing the unbalance.
One thing to mention is that, not long before testing Hydra, we'd allowed Mega Doom back saying that it wasn't that lethal because it could be rk'd, but then Limitless started using Flame Charge + NP, and some asked for it to be banned. With Hydra in, that never happened again. So I expected Dog to receive higher usage in this ladder, but I didn't find it in all of my 55 games (I did face more Haxorus, particularly Band ones, than what's healthy).

I used the same team for the last three suspects, and it was logically easier to get reqs the less threats there were, particularly when we're talking about to amazing mons such as Mence and Hydra. The only changes I did between them were trading Pursuit for EQ on Aero and Pursuit for Taunt (+ BlackGlasses) on Krook between the Zam and Mence tests, and the Celebi speed tier since I got annoyed at being so threatened by Kyurem and I didn't need the bulk to tank LO Dark Pulse anymore. Still though, my team had three mons slower than LO Hydra and none faster than Scarf so it's fair to say it was a big threat. I think that fast-paced offense needs to have at least half the team faster than the Wallbreaker sets, but that's not so much overcentralizing as adapting. Now, the only thing it could switch in risk-free was Celebi, since it didn't want to get burned by Sacred Fire/Knocked Off. However, I actually used that to my advantage (particularly when the presence of Sylveon meant Stallbreaker Hydra was less common) since it could tank the hit and, if avoiding the flinch, passing a Weakness Policy boost. Obviously, a good Hydra player should be able to not put themselves in that position, but I only laddered so that wasn't an issue. I also think that, if it didn't make the game unbalanced in the hands of a worse player, that is a small point to it not being broken. Scarf Hydra, on the other hand, was totally a non-issue. Scarf Darmanitan was a much bigger threat, since it could 2-shot my whole team with one move, lmao.

Similarly to Mence, I don't think Hydreigon is broken even if it's really really good, and has been since it came back. To the ones saying that Sylveon had really high usage in the Open... well yea, it's a great mon and Fairy is a really useful typing with or without Hydra (I don't actually remember if Florges was #1 before the Dragon's retest, but I could bet it was; and Sylveon is a complete upgrade to XY Florges). So is Conkeldurr, which in the replays dodmen posted ended up doing much more. I guess you can say that the fact that, unlike Mega Shark for example, those drops didn't make Hydreigon lose viability, is a testament to its presence in the tier and its offensive and defensive prowess. Still though, as I said before, the threat that is Sylveon means that more Hydras are running coverage for it, which comes with cost. That is, LO with Iron Tail is forced to play carefully against bulky Water-types and Entei since getting burned is a much bigger deal (not that it appreciated it much before) and Specs is locked into an unSTAB 80 BP move that can be taken advantage of by a much higher number of setup mons than its other moves, so your team has to cover much more—plus you lose longevity. Obviously if taking out Sylveon paves the way for another mon to sweep then the cost-benefit ratio is in its favor, but that's still something to take into account. I realize nothing I said here is new to anyone so it's not gonna change you guys' minds, but I just wanted to mention it.
Finally, I think we have to take into account that, unlike DD Mence, it's not that hard to revenge kill. Like, I understand that it's a Wallbreaker, not a sweeper, but considering the offensive meta it resides in, it's still important. Salamence could turn a game around against offensive teams without Ice Shard pretty easily while being checked defensively by bulky Water-type with Ice Beam + Fairy, but the state of the meta made it thrive even more. I still voted to keep it, but it was still better imo.

I also agree that Celebi is a big elephant in the room, using SD Pass for the past months has shown me the amount of options it has. It doesn't even need to be to sweep, you can use a +2 Entei to wallbreak and pave the way for something else to clean later. It clearly has many, many checks, but it can still do a lot. Hell, yesterday I beat a freaking Roar K9 defensive team by playing more recklessly with Krookodile against Mola (in the same day, I got 6-0'd by misplaying turn 3 against a U-turn team and then giving up on doing anything at all, lmao). The fact that it's so versatile, even if you can see from team preview if it's gonna be a passer or Offensive NP, plus with all the resist Berries at its disposal, makes it pretty deadly, even if it doesn't look so threatening at first.

Tl;dr: This was fun, but I want Hydra back :'(

 

[Ampd302]

I was pretty surprised that hydregion was being suspected. I for sure thought it would of been celebi over hydre, but oh well. At first I didn't think hydre was an issue seeing as conk and sylv were dropped to UU but after seeing the calcs people posted on this forum posted I've come to see the threat that it can pose. Hydre is hard to switch into (assuming life orb set) and its amazing moving pool with access to the moves like flash cannon, iron tail, taunt, superpower, fire blast, etc. It's tough to say which way I lean but I definitely see the the argument the pro ban side has.

 

[Tirishia]

Hello, I'm new to the forums and was told I could share my opinion on the suspect here. This was the first suspect test that I was able to achieve the coil required to vote.

1. How I got 2650 Coil​

First off, I stole a team out of the UU open team dump that was called 'Tornadus HO' by dodmen. After a few battles at the bottom of the suspect ladder, I got the hang of the team. I was losing quite a bit with hurricane and stone edge misses, but I didn't think the team was bad. I figured if I wanted to get coil by the time the suspect ended, then I would have to do more than one battle at once. I eventually got up to doing three battles at once. After 4-5 hours of grinding and 130 battles, I got the required coil. The team was good in the sense that I really didn't have to think about my battles too much in order to win. The laddering process wasn't all that bad this way.

2. The Suspect Ladder​

When I reflect back on this experience I remember about 6 pokemon. Blissey, Mega Aggron, Krookodile, Bronzong, Mega Aerodactyl, and Crobat. I only laddered on Friday and Saturday, so my view of the suspect ladder might be a little skewed. Either way, I found the ladder pretty boring. I can't help but think that the tier will be similiar to my ladder experience if Hydreigon gets banned. Then again, the tier with Hydreigon isn't much different. Also, I try not to have my experience on laddering be a clear conviction to what the tier will turn out looking like since most people on ladder are using teams that are still Hydreigon meta but don't have Hydreigon in them.

3. My Vote​

I came into this suspect saying, "if it's suspect worthy, it's ban worthy." Judging by the UU chat, most of the staff is voting ban while most of the plebs are voting no ban. Hydreigon has been around for quite some time. I remember having to slap florges on my offensive teams all the time just to cope with the scarf set. That is another thing about Hydreigon. You have to prepare for multiple sets that Hydreigon can run. Empoleon stops the scarf set pretty nicely, but suffers against LO superpower or taunt roost. Whimsicott deals with most non choiced variants pretty well, but if you guess wrong, you die to fireblast or flashcannon. Even big special fairy walls like Florges and Sylveon often run physical defense making specs Flashcannon from Hydreigon a 2hko. Salamence was very similiar in this manner, although I do think that was far more broken than Hydreigon.

Hydreigon hurts team building more than it helps. It helps some but not nearly as much as it hurts. I do think some teams naturally prepare for Hydreigon when being built, but then again no team is really prepared for Hydreigon unless you are running stall with 2-4 answers for multiple sets. I will be voting BAN because I believe the tier will be more fun without Hydreigon.

 

[Tymano]

September stats are out.

We lost Azelf.

 

[Schpoonman]

Just to clarify, you mean Azelf got enough usage in OU just in September to quick-rise it?

 

[Tymano]

Just to clarify, you mean Azelf got enough usage in OU just in September to quick-rise it?

Yes, it got enough usage in OU in September to quick-rise.

 

[ProfessorMasterChief]

While I'm not surprised Azelf moved up to OU, considering how popular bird spam is, I'm going to miss the Nasty Plot set, which I thought was a lot of fun to use, considering it could break bulky teams while still having a very good speed tier to put in work against fast teams. Now all we need is for OU to stop using it, Zapdos, Raikou, and Starmie all at once so they drop right before Gen 7.

 

[Tace]

When does voting for hydregion start?

 

[Accel]

When does voting for hydregion start?

It's already been underway for a couple of days now. You needed to have a COIL of 2650 on the suspect ladder in order to have voting privileges btw, and you can contact Sam if you've gotten reqs but weren't tagged in the voting thread.

 

[Tace]

I didn'y get reqs but voting is normally done by now

 

[Mazz]

I didn'y get reqs but voting is normally done by now

Voting ends today. Numbers will be tallied up and should be out tomorrow. Dunno what you mean by "voting is normally done by now". Two weeks to test the Hydreigon-free metagame and a week to place votes. Nothings changed compared to the Salamence or Alakazam tests as far as I'm aware.

 

[LeoLancaster]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-stage-7-3-voting.3583824/page-7#post-7024806

Hydreigon remains UU.