np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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Mario With Lasers

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At first sight, we would lose variety, as Drizzle makes a good amount of pokémon usable (but even then, the anti-Drizzle camp would only be satisfied if we banned some of the "too good" ones). The problem is that these bans usually have consequences no one can think of at first, imagine a ban on a weather ability...
 
Changing the subject again.

I'm wondering, do people still have this notion that if Drizzle is banned, then a landslide of bans will proceed? I can't imagine sun taking over with Tyranitar everywhere, not to mention Ninetales has some serious flaws. As far as Sand goes, I'd like to think everyone has a good idea of how to deal with Excadrill, but banning rain would pretty much make Garchomp worse to face.

So from I can tell, if Drizzle goes, then Garchomp looks like it would be the only one to get the axe.
Please. If they ban Drizzle and Drought, like everyone's suggesting, they may as well ban Sand Stream as well. Drizzle and Drought negate Sandstorm, that's why people want it banned. So they can repeatedly do their precious Excadrill sweep, with absolutely no variation whatsoever.

Speaking of Excadrill, I think that it should be Uber aswell. In the sand, a fully speed trained one has a speed stat of about 550. It can only be outsped by the fastest of the fast like Deoxys-S and Ninjask. Then, those two can't OHKO, and Excadrill can OHKO them. The only way to stop Excadrill is with Drought and Drizzle, so if you guys want to ban those abilities, it'd only be balanced if we see Excadrill/Sand Stream banned as well. Even now, it's a bit difficult to keep Excadrill from being banned from OU, IMO.
 
Please. If they ban Drizzle and Drought, like everyone's suggesting, they may as well ban Sand Stream as well. Drizzle and Drought negate Sandstorm, that's why people want it banned. So they can repeatedly do their precious Excadrill sweep, with absolutely no variation whatsoever.
Well if Excadrill turns out broken because of Sand (which I highly doubt), then why not ban it instead of the whole weather?
 
So I ask again, why do you support ability restrictions, but not level/item/move restrictions? Why is Blaziken an exception to the rule?
Because Blaziken was already OU. Mewtwo wasn't. If you work to keep things OU, it's easier and faster.
Ability restriction is already enforced by aldaron's proposal, and it proved to work.

Jumping on to moves and items would only make tiering unnecessary harder and complex.
 

Mario With Lasers

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Well if Excadrill turns out broken because of Sand (which I highly doubt), then why not ban it instead of the whole weather?
Shouldn't the same apply to Drizzle, then?

Because Blaziken was already OU. Mewtwo wasn't. If you work to keep things OU, it's easier and faster.
Ability restriction is already enforced by aldaron's proposal, and it proved to work.

Jumping on to moves and items would only make tiering unnecessary harder and complex.
So we should have worked to keep Darkrai and Skymin OU, just because "they were here since day one"?
 
Ability restriction is for a combination of abilities, not pokemon and abilities. It was also repeatedly mentioned that this wasn't going to end up as a slippery slope and used to justified this like this.

So because Blaziken was once not Uber, we should do everything we can do to prevent him from becoming Uber? Should we restrict Espeon's dreamworld so it can stay in NU? Should we have restricted Scizor from Technician so it would have stayed in UU?
 
Well if Excadrill turns out broken because of Sand (which I highly doubt), then why not ban it instead of the whole weather?
It is broken in sand. It has absurd Attack, bulky HP, and in the sand reaches speeds of over 550. the only Poke'mon that have half a chance of outspeeding him can't OHKO him due to his bulky HP, and the ones that do outspeed him need Choice Scarf. We're coming to the same problem that we had with Drizzle+Swift Swim, obviously enough. And if Sand Stream+Sand Rush isn't banned then I demand Drizzle+Swift Swim be unbanned.
 
It is broken in sand. It has absurd Attack, bulky HP, and in the sand reaches speeds of over 550. the only Poke'mon that have half a chance of outspeeding him can't OHKO him due to his bulky HP, and the ones that do outspeed him need Choice Scarf. We're coming to the same problem that we had with Drizzle+Swift Swim, obviously enough. And if Sand Stream+Sand Rush isn't banned then I demand Drizzle+Swift Swim be unbanned.
He's not bulky enough to survive SE priority (notably +1 Roobushin Mach Punch), he isn't powerful enough to get past certain walls (Gliscor, Bronzong, ect.) and if the weather changes he's helpless. He's a great pokemon, certainly, but he's not completely broken.
 
He's not bulky enough to survive SE priority (notably +1 Roobushin Mach Punch), he isn't powerful enough to get past certain walls (Gliscor, Bronzong, ect.) and if the weather changes he's helpless. He's a great pokemon, certainly, but he's not completely broken.
Foe Herp Derp's Excadrill swept poke fainted!
Foe Herp Derp sent out Gliscor!
LolExcaSweep used Earthquake!
It had no effect!
LolExcaSweep, come back!
Go! Tyranitar!

That's the scenario, assuming that both players are dumbasses, as it usually goes. Assuming that both players actually know how to predict:

Foe Herp Derp's Excadrill swept poke fainted!
Foe Herp Derp sent out Gliscor!
LolExcaSweep used Earthquake!
It had no effect!
Foe Herp Derp's Gliscor switched out!
Foe Herp Derp sent out Scizor!
LolExcaSweep used Earthquake!
Foe Herp Derp's Scizor fainted!
 
Shouldn't the same apply to Drizzle, then?



So we should have worked to keep Darkrai and Skymin OU, just because "they were here since day one"?
Wasn't active when Darkrai went, but Skymin, yes, we could have had a little more thought.
Yet one victim of the "play to ban" metagame.

Ability restriction is for a combination of abilities, not pokemon and abilities. It was also repeatedly mentioned that this wasn't going to end up as a slippery slope and used to justified this like this.

So because Blaziken was once not Uber, we should do everything we can do to prevent him from becoming Uber? Should we restrict Espeon's dreamworld so it can stay in NU? Should we have restricted Scizor from Technician so it would have stayed in UU?
Everything we can? You talk as it would be an epic event for Smogon to have on the OU Banlist thread "Speed Boost on Blaziken is banned".

Since OU is the standard metagame, we should capitalize our efforts there.
The proposal deals with abilities, that's my point. If it's kept in, I don't see why it can't be worked out to fit our needs in the future.
 
So would you support banning Technician on Scizor to make him viable in UU? Also, why are abilities somehow special and different from the other aspects of a pokemon? Aldaron's Proposal does not have any bearing on ability restriction on pokemon, merely ability combination on teams. There is no precedent.

The only purpose of this is to make Blaziken usable in OU, yet you refuse to consider other Ubers because they weren't previously OU. Even with that pointless restriction on only allowing former OUs, we can still restrict Shaymin-s, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N, and Manaphy. Should they all be OU after a few restrictions?
 
So would you support banning Technician on Scizor to make him viable in UU? Also, why are abilities somehow special and different from the other aspects of a pokemon? Aldaron's Proposal does not have any bearing on ability restriction on pokemon, merely ability combination on teams. There is no precedent.

The only purpose of this is to make Blaziken usable in OU, yet you refuse to consider other Ubers because they weren't previously OU. Even with that pointless restriction on only allowing former OUs, we can still restrict Shaymin-s, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N, and Manaphy. Should they all be OU after a few restrictions?
This thread is on OU Suspects, we should test and clause based on the OU metagame.

The purpose of this isn't only to bring back Blaziken as a mad fangirl or fanboy, is to have a basis for future suspects. You probably have read all the fuss about Garchomp and Excadrill earlier in this thread; should they ever be put on suspect, wouldn't you want to have a solid course of action to take?

On Shaymin S and Manaphy... why are they uber again? ...
I really can't argue on something that I don't even think it's broken lol.
What would you suggest to make Deoxys and Darkrai OU? I can't think of anything reasonable to make any OU.
 
Glen^^ said:
This thread is on OU Suspects, we should test and clause based on the OU metagame.
I meant this specific conversation, obviously the whole thread isn't about Blaziken

The purpose of this isn't only to bring back Blaziken as a mad fangirl or fanboy, is to have a basis for future suspects. You probably have read all the fuss about Garchomp and Excadrill earlier in this thread; should they ever be put on suspect, wouldn't you want to have a solid course of action to take?
Yes I would. If they are put up as suspect they should be voted on and the banned or not banned, as we have done in the past three rounds. We should not ban Sand Veil Garchomp or Sand Rush Excadrill.

On Shaymin S and Manaphy... why are they uber again? ...
I really can't argue on something that I don't even think it's broken lol.
What would you suggest to make Deoxys and Darkrai OU? I can't think of anything reasonable to make any OU.
Shaymin-S because it outspeds just about everything and has a 60% chance to flinx them. Manaphy because Hydration makes it ridiculously difficult to kill in rain, has tail glow, and great coverage.
Deoxys and Darkrai were both previously OU and can be made to fit in with a level or move restriction. Just like Blaziken was previously OU (UU) and can be made to fit in with an ability restriction.

I'll ask again, why are abilities different than the other, modifiable aspects of a pokemon? Aldaron's Proposal does not establish a precedent for, as I have said several times before, because it deals with ability combinations on a team.
 
Well, I'm done with the Excadrill one. I just want to say, that if they aren't going to ban Sand-Stream+Sand Rush, they should at least bring Swift-Swim+Drizzle back. They produce the exact same problems.

Garchomp is a difficult one. I still feel that he should be OU, but the ability of Sand Veil is one I have trouble looking at. Sand Veil is far from broken, but it is just like Lax Incense/Minimize/Double Team/ect. The ability is entirely hax based. I like Rough Skin as an ability for Garchomp, but his ability is questionable. It goes against all ideals on competitive battling. We can't ban Garchomp. He's not good enough for Ubers. He functions just fine in DW. It's just a real head-scratcher about what we can do with him...
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
The purpose of this isn't only to bring back Blaziken as a mad fangirl or fanboy, is to have a basis for future suspects. You probably have read all the fuss about Garchomp and Excadrill earlier in this thread; should they ever be put on suspect, wouldn't you want to have a solid course of action to take?
We have had a solid basis for almost a decade: if a pokémon has to be banned, ban it as a whole. Blaziken is a "special case" only because of the way it became broken; however, it was deemed broken by its own merit only, so Blaziken is as deserving of a ban as any other broken pokémon in any other metagame.

What would you suggest to make Deoxys and Darkrai OU? I can't think of anything reasonable to make any OU.
I have no idea as to how make Deoxys-A not broken (no speed EVs???), but Darkrai could very well not have Nasty Plot allowed; it was actually going to be a Suspect in D/P, but Platinum came and, along with it, Nasty Plot, so people gave up on that. Had it not gotten Nasty Plot, though, it would almost surely be a perfectly acceptable OU in B/W (and maybe in DPPt).
 
We have had a solid basis for almost a decade: if a pokémon has to be banned, ban it as a whole. Blaziken is a "special case" only because of the way it became broken; however, it was deemed broken by its own merit only, so Blaziken is as deserving of a ban as any other broken pokémon in any other metagame.
Then, shouldn't we have banned Kingdra or Politoed, instead of their abilities?


@Master Bane: we've just returned to the exact start of the discussion. I would give you the same reasons to why Ability's ok yet move isn't, and you'd give me the same answer.
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
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Foe Herp Derp's Excadrill swept poke fainted!
Foe Herp Derp sent out Gliscor!
LolExcaSweep used Earthquake!
It had no effect!
LolExcaSweep, come back!
Go! Tyranitar!

That's the scenario, assuming that both players are dumbasses, as it usually goes. Assuming that both players actually know how to predict:

Foe Herp Derp's Excadrill swept poke fainted!
Foe Herp Derp sent out Gliscor!
LolExcaSweep used Earthquake!
It had no effect!
Foe Herp Derp's Gliscor switched out!
Foe Herp Derp sent out Scizor!
LolExcaSweep used Earthquake!
Foe Herp Derp's Scizor fainted!
Okay wait what the fuck? Why would this situation even happen? Gliscor can take a +2 Return from Exca and then OHKO back with Earthquake. Skarmory just sits there laughing at Exca, scarf politoed revenges like a champion, Balloon Tran, etc, the list goes on. If you're complaining about Excadrill being overpowered then you really just need to add one of its many checks and counters to your team, Excadrill is great, yeah, but Excadrill is 100% manageable, just pack a check or a counter for it, it's honestly not too hard.
 
Seriously, Blaze Blaziken is staying banned. It just gets way too confusing otherwise with different ability versions of Pokemon being in different tiers. How about letting Espeon and Xatu into NU without Magic Bounce, or Scizor with Swarm into UU. Things would just get massively out of hand, and I haven't even gone into move bans or level caps.
 
Smogon servers been down for a few days already and I haven't been able to start laddering yet. Any chance there will be an extension to this round due to all the server downtime?
 
Everything we can? You talk as it would be an epic event for Smogon to have on the OU Banlist thread "Speed Boost on Blaziken is banned".
It would be, because not only is it not how we tier, it would set a precedent for tiering based on a pokemon's usefulness given specific sets and restrictions instead of how broken it is. Ability+Pokemon bans and the like carry an inherent belief that by reducing an Uber pokemon's (for lack of a better term) "power level," it would be okay for use in OU.

-For example, let's say Gohan can go Super Saiyan. That Gohan can blow up the Earth with a fart and is Uber. But if Gohan doesn't go Super Saiyan, the Earth is straight. Guess what, it's the same person, just with one arm behind it's back, essentially nerfed. Now let's translate into the more relevant discussion:
-Blaziken can set up on OU teams with ease since with Protect it essentially comes in with +2 speed and can KO with powerful STABs. That Blaziken is Uber. But if Blaziken doesn't have the Speed Boost, then it's not overpowered in OU.This Blaziken is nerfed into OU, which just isn't how the banning process works. If your not getting my point, here's another point with the same logic:
-Deoxys-A hits way too hard, too quickly and blows giant smoke rings through the pokemon in OU. Deoxys-A at level 50, however, has isn't broken at all in OU. If nerfed by level, or moveset, it's not broken in OU.
We ban entire pokemon based on the threat it poses as a whole . That does not, has not, and likely will not mean, "Ban the best set and allow then allow nerfed forms of them into lower tiers." Otherwise level 50 Deoxys-A would be wrecking UU as we speeak.

The proposal deals with abilities, that's my point. If it's kept in, I don't see why it can't be worked out to fit our needs in the future.
The proposal deals with Drizzle and Swift Swim used on the same team. Not abilities as a whole, just those two because they were deemed too good as a tag team (I'd rather we banned Toed under support clause but it's worked to a degree) and they DP'ed all of OU without reliable counters and checks. It's different, mainly because it was temporary. We don't need to poke loopholes in the banning process to fit our current desire to unban Blaziken and cite a temporary bandaid as justification because it(the bandaid aka the Aldaron Proposal) is only there to stop further hemorrhaging(having Swift Swimmers and Drizzletoed as suspects or banned outright).

Regardless, I'm not a part of the Anti-Drizzle camp, but I am for banning Toed over making the Aldaron Proposal permanent and my logic is simple;
-Politoed boosted the strength, speed, and defenses(technically by halving fire type attacks and removing a major weakness of steel types) of its teammates just by switching in. That pokemon should be Uber. But, if we make sure Politoed can't give those boosts to Swift Swim sweepers, namely Kingdra/Kabutops, then it is fine in OU.
I'm against that sort of logic but the basic idea is undeniably simliar in practice, although not so in origin.
 

Stellar

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To anyone interested in laddering for the suspect test: the server is back up. You can connect using advanced connection: 74.50.98.226:5080.
 
The deal about Aldaron's proposal and the ability+ability ban combo kind of amuses me. A lot of people says that the Aldaron proposal set a precedent for Sand Veil + Sand stream combo ban. Not than I'm here to discuss if the ban is necessary but to explain something.

For me, the aldaron's proposal isn't the first combo ban I've known. Here in Belgium, I made a (non-official) tournament (it was still gen 4 though) where it was an other ability combo ban. You're gonna be surprised. This was the Sand stream + sand veil combo ban (there was the same ban for hail too). All hax items was banned as well. This kind of ban was pretty known for french speakers community (as far as I know).

So, you can possibly understand that I was pretty surprised that this kind of ban deserve so much heated argument even though it was pretty common here.

I insist that I'm not taking a stand for either choice about this ability. I just wanted to say that. (I don't play enough these 2 last months to say if it's broken or too luck based)
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
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Okay wait what the fuck? Why would this situation even happen? Gliscor can take a +2 Return from Exca and then OHKO back with Earthquake. Skarmory just sits there laughing at Exca, scarf politoed revenges like a champion, Balloon Tran, etc, the list goes on. If you're complaining about Excadrill being overpowered then you really just need to add one of its many checks and counters to your team, Excadrill is great, yeah, but Excadrill is 100% manageable, just pack a check or a counter for it, it's honestly not too hard.
Agreed, that is a really dumb situation to play out.

But if we're listing Balloon as a legitimate counter to Excadrill, then let's just add every Pokemon with a strong Ground, Fighting, Water, or Fire move to that list as Focus Sash is the exact same thing. Or let's add Water or Fight Gem for priority users and the Super-Effective Berries.

It's not reliable at all and should never be listed as a counter. Temporary Items have never been listed for counters and never should.

As far as I see the only real counters for Excadrill are Gliscor, Bronzong, Slowbro, Quagsire, Skarmory, Conkeldurr, Azumarril, Politoed, Abomasnow, & Ninetales. (I'm sure I'm missing a few)

It's counters are even more specific than Garchomp & Salamence of 4th Gen. I'm just glad most Excadrill are running Balloon & Jolly to counter...themselves and completely cripple their own power. (405 Attack + Life Orb HURTS. No boost even needed to revenge.)

If Excadrill could go Mixed at all, (Just enough for a usable HP Ice) he'd be comparable to a massively bulkier & faster physically-based Deoxys with a great STAB. But that's not the case so, he's always going to be in question both ways regardless of if he's banned or not, much like Latias was in early Plat.

Smogon servers been down for a few days already and I haven't been able to start laddering yet. Any chance there will be an extension to this round due to all the server downtime?
If it's up by tomorrow, there shouldn't be any need for an extention. Getting a new account to the top 50 or so only takes a few hours assuming you and your team are good enough to derserve it.

2 or 3 days is plenty.
 
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